5.56 AR Only Loads

[232593]

I dropped my TAC load down to 24.4 grains. I get 2850 average and the ES is about 16 FPS with the TMKs. I have heard that CFE223 is decent but I only have load data for the .223. So I stepped up the load past the .233 data in .2 grain increments. I’m at 25.3 grains with an average speed of 2836 and an ES of 19FPS no pressure signs on the brass yet so maybe I’ll step it up another .2 grains and see if I can get to that 2850 speed.

Has anyone tested the temp sensitivity with CFE223? I have noticed TAC is a bit temp sensitive.

 

[260284]

I dropped my TAC load down to 24.4 grains. I get 2850 average and the ES is about 16 FPS with the TMKs. I have heard that CFE223 is decent but I only have load data for the .223. So I stepped up the load past the .233 data in .2 grain increments. I’m at 25.3 grains with an average speed of 2836 and an ES of 19FPS no pressure signs on the brass yet so maybe I’ll step it up another .2 grains and see if I can get to that 2850 speed.

Has anyone tested the temp sensitivity with CFE223? I have noticed TAC is a bit temp sensitive.

What bullet, case, and primer are you using in these loads? AR mag length, or longer for bolt guns?

 

[232593]

What bullet, case, and primer are you using in these loads? AR mag length, or longer for bolt guns?

77 Grain TMK, FEDAR Match primers, LC new brass. AR mag length seating depth. I don’t have my exact CBTOL with me at the moment.

 

[260284]

77 Grain TMK, FEDAR Match primers, LC new brass. AR mag length seating depth. I don’t have my exact CBTOL with me at the moment.

I am working on a load with the 77gr TMK for my AR for my grandson to use for deer. I have plenty of CFE 223, Varget, H4895, and 4166.

 

[232593]

I am working on a load with the 77gr TMK for my AR for my grandson to use for deer. I have plenty of CFE 223, Varget, H4895, and 4166.

I’ll share my test results with you after I go to the range this weekend. Would you mind sharing bullet performance on the deer after your hunt?

 

[260284]

I’ll share my test results with you after I go to the range this weekend. Would you mind sharing bullet performance on the deer after your hunt?

Will do. There is a really good thread on the 77gr TMK on Rokslide. I have had good luck with the 75gr ELDM out to 400 yards out of a bolt gun. MV is just over 3025 fps.

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

From earlier in the thread Velocity is always a concern so I figure this screen shot could help out others that come along wondering about charge weight and seating depth. The above velocities are from bolt guns.

www.rokslide.com

 

[232593]

Will do. There is a really good thread on the 77gr TMK on Rokslide. I have had good luck with the 75gr ELDM out to 400 yards out of a bolt gun. MV is just over 3025 fps.

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

From earlier in the thread Velocity is always a concern so I figure this screen shot could help out others that come along wondering about charge weight and seating depth. The above velocities are from bolt guns.

www.rokslide.com

Nice!!! Did you take a deer at 400?

 

[260284]

Nice!!! Did you take a deer at 400?

Shot a big doe, double lung, 1" exit, she went about 40 yards.

 

[232593]

Shot a big doe, double lung, 1" exit, she went about 40 yards.

Do you think the bullet fragmented ok?

 

[jmornoinf]

I am currently sold on CFE223. It's currently plentiful and velocities are good. I am consistently achieving .75 or less 5-shot groups.

Gun KAC SR-15 LPR 18"
My goto .223 loads:

• 77 SMK
• 25.4gr of CFE223
• CCI #41
• 2.250 COAL
• LC 19
• MV 2754

• 77 SMK
• 24.4gr of TAC
• CCI #41
• 2.250 COAL
• LC 19
• MV 2750

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Berger’s load data is also likely for .223, not 5.56 pressures. Not a single reloading manual I have publishes 5.56 data, just .223.

There are a lot of people running 23.0 to 23.4gr of xbr with great success in LC brass. I’ve run all the way up to 23.8 out of my Mk12Mod0, but it was too hot for shorter barrels/gas systems, and on the edge in an 18” barrel with rifle length gas.

23.2gr of XBR under a 77smk in LC brass has worked well for me in multiple rifles.

Not in the Berger manual but both Sierra and Hornady do publish specific loads for 5.56

 

[232593]

I am currently sold on CFE223. It's currently plentiful and velocities are good. I am consistently achieving .75 or less 5-shot groups.

Gun KAC SR-15 LPR 18"
My goto .223 loads:

• 77 SMK
• 25.4gr of CFE223
• CCI #41
• 2.250 COAL
• LC 19
• MV 2754

• 77 SMK
• 24.4gr of TAC
• CCI #41
• 2.250 COAL
• LC 19
• MV 2750

What ES are you getting with those CFE loads?

 

[232593]

Not in the Berger manual but both Sierra and Hornady do publish specific loads for 5.56
View attachment 7956704 View attachment 7956705

Do you know what the Sierra load manual publishes for MAX with a 77 grain TMK & CFE223?

 

[jmornoinf]

What ES are you getting with those CFE loads?

Great question. I will check this weekend.

So far I have great 100yd groups, no pressure signs, and was hitting a 575yd target consistently last weekend...so far so good.

 

[260284]

Do you think the bullet fragmented ok?

From the size of the exit, I would say it expanded. Only had one hole out, so hard to say if it fragmented. I have had similar sized exits on coyotes from 350-600 yards with the same bullet.

 

[232593]

Do any of you guys use bushing sizing dies with your 5.56 loads? Does crimping defeat the purpose?

 

[Baron85]

I use Redding full length bushing dies. I prep brass on a progressive so use the Redding with slightly undersized bushing and next station is a turning mandrel. I do not crimp my ar loads.

 

[Baron85]

Finalized my load for my 24” lilja on prep for the upcoming competition dynamics team match.

24.4 N140 ended up being the secret sauce I had been using 24.4 Tac but just couldn’t get the consistency, would end up with a flier every couple groups.

Load is 75 Hornady OTM magpul mag leg mtb, cci 450, fc brass, 24.4 n140 2828fps


Groups at 100 yards 1 5 shot and the other 2 are 3 shot

 

[232593]

Finalized my load for my 24” lilja on prep for the upcoming competition dynamics team match.

24.4 N140 ended up being the secret sauce I had been using 24.4 Tac but just couldn’t get the consistency, would end up with a flier every couple groups.

Load is 75 Hornady OTM magpul mag leg mtb, cci 450, fc brass, 24.4 n140 2828fps


Groups at 100 yards 1 5 shot and the other 2 are 3 shot

Very nice.

I use 24.4 grains of Tac as well behind a 77 grain TMK. I’m testing CFE 223 tomorrow, going to try to get to 2850 (what this gun seems to like). 25.3 grains got me to 2830 with an ES of 19 FPS.

Is N140 temp sensitive?

 

[Baron85]

I have had very good luck with n140 in 2 6brs, my tikka 223 with 75 ELDMS, and now this AR. I haven’t measured velocity swings with temp but have shot below freezing up to the 90s and my data was always close.

 

[232593]

I am working on a load with the 77gr TMK for my AR for my grandson to use for deer. I have plenty of CFE 223, Varget, H4895, and 4166.

I could not get a charge that had less than 30 FPS ES or was under an MOA. Guess I will be sticking with TAC or trying different primers.

 

[jmornoinf]

I could not get a charge that had less than 30 FPS ES or was under an MOA. Guess I will be sticking with TAC or trying different primers.

What ES are you getting with those CFE loads?

I checked my two loads yesterday and measured the following

TAC - 24.4gr = 2705fps, 6SD and 8ES - best groups with TAC
CFE - 25.4gr = 2756fps, 8SD and 22 ES

Most groups were .5 MOA with a KAC 18" LPR

 

[jmornoinf]

Why the big jump in velocity for small change in power in .223 TAC and CFE?

TAC - In testing TAC power I found a large change in velocity going from 24.4 to 24.6 - almost 50fps difference
and
CFE - 25.2 to 25.4gr also increased velocity almost 50fps.

Why is this?

all other .2 power increases yield much lower velocity increases.

I did not see any pressure signs.

 

[232593]

Why the big jump in velocity for small change in power in .223 TAC and CFE?

TAC - In testing TAC power I found a large change in velocity going from 24.4 to 24.6 - almost 50fps difference
and
CFE - 25.2 to 25.4gr also increased velocity almost 50fps.

Why is this?

all other .2 power increases yield much lower velocity increases.

I did not see any pressure signs.

No idea, when I went from 24.4 to 24.6 I only had a 30ish FPS jump.

 

[Snuby642]

An observation I have had with cfe223,

You come up near max recommended load and find accuracy.
0.3g past that you get scatter mode.
Another 0.3g you get pressure signs.

load after load has been the same I have stopped shooting at the scatter load and go back and bracket the last two good loads in one tenth grain increments.

FWIW

 

[232593]

An observation I have had with cfe223,

You come up near max recommended load and find accuracy.
0.3g past that you get scatter mode.
Another 0.3g you get pressure signs.

load after load has been the same I have stopped shooting at the scatter load and go back and bracket the last two good loads in one tenth grain increments.

FWIW

Is that max 5.56 or .223?

 

[Snuby642]

Is that max 5.56 or .223?

That's max as listed by Hodgdon on 223.
Not limited to 223, 6.5g, 308 also responded the same.

Not that cfe223 shot extremely accurate in 308 or 6.5g for me, both hovered around 1 moa at best but were usable loads.

During the powder shortage I had to make due as it outlasted supplies of varget and 8208.

I like cfe223 for a general purpose fallback for those calibers.

But yes I test in 0.3g increments till I hit scatter past a good group, backup and do 0.1 brackets around that then seating depth test.
Have not found any nodes past scatter mode before pressure signs.

Unless I get lazy and just crank on the tuner instead. Lol

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Does the headspace closely match in your ar's ?

You could get an EC tuner brake to dial in loads on different ar's.

View attachment 7951919

Edit: This load is still 0.1g low for this rifle due to the powder dispenser on the dillon being set wrong.

Sorry I never saw this post. I'm reviewing because I'm starting the process today.

I don't know about the head space in any but my CLE. Not sure what the best method for doing this is going to be.

 

[Snuby642]

Not exactly sure of your question.

I use a hornady gauge and modified case to find my lands.
A ? sinclair hex tool to measure to the ogive on bullets and cbto.
And a headspace comparitor that measures to the datum line on the cartridge shoulder.

Those tools are necessary to keep me out of trouble.

Oh and dear God don't call any of those tools gauges. The stasis will come out in force and make a contest of who can beat you up about it.

They are a comparitor not a calibrated gauge.

To compare head space use a fired round from that gun preferably with primer removed on a universal die that does not resize.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Not exactly sure of your question.

I use a hornady gauge and modified case to find my lands.
A ? sinclair hex tool to measure to the ogive on bullets and cbto.
And a headspace comparitor that measures to the datum line on the cartridge shoulder.

View attachment 7962679

Those tools are necessary to keep me out of trouble.

Oh and dear God don't call any of those tools gauges. The stasis will come out in force and make a contest of who can beat you up about it.

They are a comparitor not a calibrated gauge.

To compare head space use a fired round from that gun preferably with primer removed on a universal die that does not resize.

Oh yeah I have the tools and I know how and all. I meant "I'm not sure how to go about finding a load that will work in 3 different AR's ? "

I'm not sure where to start with this little endeavor. I guess I'm going to have to find the load with my CLR AR that shoots best, then see how it shoots in the other two....???

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Gonna have to get some fired brass from them anyway I guess because what I have that was fired from each is all mixed up and different stuff. I guess my best bet is to do a powder work up with a seating depth that is based off the factory Berger ammo. Then I will have to do a seating depth test for that same gun. Then see how that shoots in the others. My main concern is the CLE, so if the load shoots decent in the others that would be ok I guess. I am not going to have a different load for each one.

 

[Snuby642]

Ya do your favorite first.

When you get the fired brass keep it separate and compare them.

Biggest bridge to cross is being able to use the same headspace on the brass. I will go out on a limb and guess your most accurate one with factory brass has the smallest headspace.

Mine was, but in reality I found it was the nonconforming bolt by swapping parts. So now all my brass is between a 0.0035 and 0.0040 thousand bump for them all.

I could go down another 0.0010 and get away with it.

Then the powder tests, I run 0.3g incraments then finish with 0.1g tests.

If the guns are within 0.1g maybe 0.2g to thier liking you are in luck because seating depth will tune that out.

If you can see clear to spending 250$ on a EC tuner brake that will easily tune out the difference between them exception being an sbr possibly. I run a can on them.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Ya do your favorite first.

When you get the fired brass keep it separate and compare them.

Biggest bridge to cross is being able to use the same headspace on the brass. I will go out on a limb and guess your most accurate one with factory brass has the smallest headspace.

Mine was, but in reality I found it was the nonconforming bolt by swapping parts. So now all my brass is between a 0.0035 and 0.0040 thousand bump for them all.

I could go down another 0.0010 and get away with it.

Then the powder tests, I run 0.3g incraments then finish with 0.1g tests.

If the guns are within 0.1g maybe 0.2g to thier liking you are in luck because seating depth will tune that out.

If you can see clear to spending 250$ on a EC tuner brake that will easily tune out the difference between them exception being an sbr possibly. I run a can on them.

Yeah a tuner is no good because I shoot suppressed always.

I matched the seating depth on some Berger ammo that shoots well and did 23.8gr -24.8 (I'm at 25.2 in my bolt gun ). I will see how it goes with the CLE today and hopefully get back there tomorrow to do seating depth test, and I will get fired brass and label it today for all 3 guns so I can compare headspace tonight.

The idea is to load up a few thousand ar rounds that I can shoot well in either of the 3 guns. That may be asking for too much though?

 

[Snuby642]

Not asking too much, it's a challenge.

There will be some consesion made. Hopefully a small one.

Keep us up on the ordeal.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Not asking too much, it's a challenge.

There will be some consesion made. Hopefully a small one.

Keep us up on the ordeal.

Well I did get my brass to measure and shot and found a similar powder spot as I had with the Hornady bthp 75gr. 24.3gr of TAC should do well in all 3.

One little issue that I had was the dot on my Ares being too big for me to see the dot I was aiming at so the groups could have and would have been better. (I'm not strongly considering moving that scope to the piston rifle that's more of a all around ar rifle and putting a higher power more typical scope on the CLE if I can find one that suits me and is light weight enough, but that's a separate topic)

Going to measure the brass and get a distance to lands on the other 2 and compare. The brass is going to be a best compromise situation for sure, as there isn't another option. Not sure what I am going to do concerning seating depth but I know the other rifle shoots pretty well at the same depth that my CLE does so that's at least something. The pistol I really don't know and it may not be as important considering its a 10.3" barrel. Would be cool if it shot lights out but in reality, that gun is built for one purpose and isn't long or even medium range.... would be nice to be able to shoot the same load in all 3 though and just know what adjustment I need to make when switching to crap 62 or 55gr factory stuff .

 

[Snuby642]

Sounds like you have a plan.

By the way there is no reason to shoot crappy factory 55g stuff.

Once you get your brass situation strait I do two things to it.
Headstamp sort and I bring the neck tension up to 0.002 .

There are some good 55g plinkers / target bullets at Bob's bulk bullets . I get sub moa groups consistently with them and the last 1000 I just got were 12 cents a piece delivered.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

There are some good 55g plinkers / target bullets at Bob's bulk bullets . I get sub moa groups consistently with them and the last 1000 I just got were 12 cents a piece delivered.

Screw Bob's. Last time I ordered from them (2019?) I got 2k bullets and there were no less than 6 distinctively different bullets mixed together. Not just slightly different, like with and without cannelure, a bunch of 54gr and a bunch of 58gr, you could eyeball measure and see that length varied about .2", completely different ogive and meplat shape, different boat tail entirely. Wish I still had the picture of all the different bullets I pulled out of a random 20. Bob's said that's fine, pound sand.
They also jacked up prices way before and way higher than anyone else.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Sounds like you have a plan.

By the way there is no reason to shoot crappy factory 55g stuff.

Once you get your brass situation strait I do two things to it.
Headstamp sort and I bring the neck tension up to 0.002 .

There are some good 55g plinkers / target bullets at Bob's bulk bullets . I get sub moa groups consistently with them and the last 1000 I just got were 12 cents a piece delivered.

I have been using lapua brass this far. I have a good bit of 223. I will switch though to other brass, which is part of why I shoot the crappy American eagle ect.. stuff. I also have quite a bit and a fee thousands reloads of 223 that I bought several years ago, so brass won't be an issue. I will definitely sort it though.

About how much adjustment do you see in your loads going from lapua to another cheaper brass?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Brass measured as follows

Pistol Brass - #1 1.4640"
Pistol Brass - #2 1.4620"

Piston Rifle - #1 - 1.4625"
Piston Rifle - #2 - 1.4640"

CLE AR - #1 - 1.4605"
CLE AR - #2. - 1.4590"

So, a .005" possible spread between the 3 barrels. So I guess I could just size it all to 1.4600" and be good? That's what all of the Brass was sized at before firing already and wouldn't change anything in my set up.

 

[Snuby642]

So can you swap bolts to see if its a bolt problem or chamber issue.

That cle headspace is to tight for the rest. Several mfgs pull that crap trying to make their product look good with factory ammo.

It is without a doubt bullshit if you are a reloader.
1.4635-1464 is what the deal is.

I toss crap that doesn't conform.
You can get a new bolt or bcg. (From a different vendor)

Luapa brass for an ar, wow.

 

[Snuby642]

Screw Bob's. Last time I ordered from them (2019?) I got 2k bullets and there were no less than 6 distinctively different bullets mixed together. Not just slightly different, like with and without cannelure, a bunch of 54gr and a bunch of 58gr, you could eyeball measure and see that length varied about .2", completely different ogive and meplat shape, different boat tail entirely. Wish I still had the picture of all the different bullets I pulled out of a random 20. Bob's said that's fine, pound sand.
They also jacked up prices way before and way higher than anyone else.

I have not found a cull yet and just went through another thousand.

Is it possible we are talking about two different companies?

First of all they only make and sell 55g 223 bullets your choice of cannelure or none. I barely can find a 0.1g difference at all.

Sounds like you got some secondary market bullshit.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

So can you swap bolts to see if its a bolt problem or chamber issue.

That cle headspace is to tight for the rest. Several mfgs pull that crap trying to make their product look good with factory ammo.

It is without a doubt bullshit if you are a reloader.
1.4635-1464 is what the deal is.

I toss crap that doesn't conform.
You can get a new bolt or bcg. (From a different vendor)

Luapa brass for an ar, wow.

I won't be running lapua for the ars for thr duration, just for testing so I don't have to fool with anything while doing this.

How would I know if another bolt would work? This is also much further complicated by it being a lefty. You can't just run out and get a lefty bolt that easily. I do know where there piston rifle bolt came from and could try getting another one of those but how would I know it would work before firing it? I suppose I could get a reamer and take .003"- .004" too though right? Then I'd have them all right in the same spot.

Of course I guess the easiest thing to do would be to take the bolt out of the piston rifle and put it in the CLE and shoot it and see? Then I could order another lefty bolt from the same place and IF that bolt was the same it would work? Not sure how likely that is to be the same though?

 

[Snuby642]

Well the left hand option complicates things.

I only had one piston operated ar a sig. It was nice but not that accurate so off it went. I don't remember if the bolt would even interchange it's been a while.

All I remember Was I was the only kid on the block with a folding stock patroll rifle. LOL

Maybe if you contacted cle they could accommodate you?

90% of all the range pickup brass I measure is 1.4635 - 1.4640 the rest is wildly scattered but within specs.

Ammo mfg's undersized thier ammo to fit in anything, some gun mfg's tighten down thier chambers to show better off the shelf accuracy with it.

It just compounds the damn problem. A "0.0005" difference between go gauge on 223 and 5.56 is completely doable with a wylde barrel for all, but hell no that would not be fufu proprietary would it.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I have not found a cull yet and just went through another thousand.

Is it possible we are talking about two different companies?

First of all they only make and sell 55g 223 bullets your choice of cannelure or none. I barely can find a 0.1g difference at all.

Sounds like you got some secondary market bullshit.

Absolutely the same Bob's. I found one picture of 3 bullets pulled from a random 5 in the email I sent them.

 

[Snuby642]

I will keep an eye on this batch.

 

[H-D]

77 SMK with CCI small rifle primers and 24 grains of Varget have always done well for me regardless of the rifle.

 

[OkieMike]

69 gr SMK.
LC 12 brass.
CCI 450 SRM primer.
AA 2015: 22.7 gr.
CBTO: 1.861"
Velocity: about 2510 fps (from my 16" barrel)

Rifle: DPMS Sportical 16" 1:9 (the rock bottom cheapest rifle I could find at the time) with a Sightmark Wraith digital scope. (Horrible resolution on a 3/4" price tag dot @ 100)

Sitting on a wobbly Caldwell Stable Table Lite. Front bag rest wasn't quite high enough so rifle was rocking on the bottom of the mag... Pictured group was the first 3 shots to zero the scope...

The other 17 shots (same load) tried to stay as tight... But as the barrel heated up they wandered a bit. Stayed inside a 2" target dot despite my worst efforts... Someone with a nice quality rifle/glass and a stable setup might be able to make this load really shine.

When I tested this load before, the velocity only changed 3 fps from 22.6 to 22.8... so there's definitely a node in there.

Accurate powder doesn't get much attention... I got two 1 pound jugs of it during the height of the madness, it was all I could get at the time. It had sat on my shelf for 2 years so I decided to try it.

Mike

 

[Snuby642]

For bench tests I use heavy front bag, a squeezable rear bag and 10 round magazine, a couple neoprene type pads to adjust front or rear.

So far the best test rig going without spending a fortune and it fits in a ruck.

I tried using light weight materials for the bags, it's a no go every time on performance for me.

 

[OkieMike]

For bench tests I use heavy front bag, a squeezable rear bag and 10 round magazine, a couple neoprene type pads to adjust front or rear.

So far the best test rig going without spending a fortune and it fits in a ruck.

I tried using light weight materials for the bags, it's a no go every time on performance for me.

Your bag setup is pretty close to what I use... Got shorter mags coming. Should be in this week sometime.

Mike

 

[Snuby642]

Wish I was better at shooting with a bipod but never get heavy bag results.