Can anyone recommend a quality 5.56 home defense ammo? I have found a few different types but I am not sure as to which ones are the best. Please just post suggestions, I don't need a different caliber, I have used 5.56 and M4/AR platforms for years in combat. Just have never dabbled in the home defense/LE rounds available.
- Thread starter Jackal_5_Actual
- Start date
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Honest to goodness a 55gr soft point is a devastating round on soft targets and does go through much dry wall.
Honest to goodness a 55gr soft point is a devastating round on soft targets and does go through much dry wall.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Presently I'm partial to 55gr. Hornady TAP but I don't think it matters hugely with most of the ammo in the civilian world.
Presently I'm partial to 55gr. Hornady TAP but I don't think it matters hugely with most of the ammo in the civilian world.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Presently I'm partial to 55gr. Hornady TAP but I don't think it matters hugely with most of the ammo in the civilian world. </div></div>
So shooting FMJ in a busy street or better yet your home where your kids are sleeping doesn't matter?
I like the TAP ammo you mentioned but was confused about the last part?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Presently I'm partial to 55gr. Hornady TAP but I don't think it matters hugely with most of the ammo in the civilian world. </div></div>
So shooting FMJ in a busy street or better yet your home where your kids are sleeping doesn't matter?
I like the TAP ammo you mentioned but was confused about the last part?
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
That is my concern, I would like something with a low over-penetration but I dont want to lose much stopping power. If that is even possible...hence why i started the thread, for some ideas and perspectives that I had not come up with. I doubt I will ever be in the situation, but I am always prepared for the worst.
That is my concern, I would like something with a low over-penetration but I dont want to lose much stopping power. If that is even possible...hence why i started the thread, for some ideas and perspectives that I had not come up with. I doubt I will ever be in the situation, but I am always prepared for the worst.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackal_5_Actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used 5.56 and M4/AR platforms for years in combat.</div></div>
so why not use what you've had in the past? It did work ,right?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackal_5_Actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used 5.56 and M4/AR platforms for years in combat.</div></div>
so why not use what you've had in the past? It did work ,right?
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackal_5_Actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used 5.56 and M4/AR platforms for years in combat.</div></div>
so why not use what you've had in the past? It did work ,right? </div></div>
yes it worked, but its not designed for home defense. i did some research, and there are some home defense rounds available in 5.56. i was just wondering if anyone had used them before, and any suggestions since these rounds are not cheap.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackal_5_Actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used 5.56 and M4/AR platforms for years in combat.</div></div>
so why not use what you've had in the past? It did work ,right? </div></div>
yes it worked, but its not designed for home defense. i did some research, and there are some home defense rounds available in 5.56. i was just wondering if anyone had used them before, and any suggestions since these rounds are not cheap.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Presently I'm partial to 55gr. Hornady TAP but I don't think it matters hugely with most of the ammo in the civilian world. </div></div>
So shooting FMJ in a busy street or better yet your home where your kids are sleeping doesn't matter?
I like the TAP ammo you mentioned but was confused about the last part? </div></div>
The key word was civilian. I should have specified better. I was intending to imply soft points and ballistic tip bullets that aren't legal in warfare. However, most the ball ammo isn't hugely penetrative from what I've seen either. Tends to keyhole through wall board, then break apart. But not as effective on soft targets. I've never seen a non-ap 5.56 go through as many walls and boards as 9mm ball from a Glock 34. Period.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Presently I'm partial to 55gr. Hornady TAP but I don't think it matters hugely with most of the ammo in the civilian world. </div></div>
So shooting FMJ in a busy street or better yet your home where your kids are sleeping doesn't matter?
I like the TAP ammo you mentioned but was confused about the last part? </div></div>
The key word was civilian. I should have specified better. I was intending to imply soft points and ballistic tip bullets that aren't legal in warfare. However, most the ball ammo isn't hugely penetrative from what I've seen either. Tends to keyhole through wall board, then break apart. But not as effective on soft targets. I've never seen a non-ap 5.56 go through as many walls and boards as 9mm ball from a Glock 34. Period.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's an article you might want to read for some insight: Link </div></div>
That is a pretty good read.</div></div>
Outstanding. Thanks for all the suggestions and this article is exactly what i wanted to see. Thanks again to everyone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's an article you might want to read for some insight: Link </div></div>
That is a pretty good read.</div></div>
Outstanding. Thanks for all the suggestions and this article is exactly what i wanted to see. Thanks again to everyone.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Gelatin isn't everything, even so it is a good indicator. Choose wisely.
Gelatin isn't everything, even so it is a good indicator. Choose wisely.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's an article you might want to read for some insight: Link</div></div>
thank you for the link, and the info it brought to the table..
has me thinking of changing my "HOME DEFENSE" load..
which has been black hills
.223 Remington
36 Gr. Varmint Grenade
Velocity 3750 FPS
Energy 1124 Ft. Lbs.
my feeling was that if someone was stupid enough to enter my house, and live thru the dogs, pitbull and mr barky the corgi/eskimo mix.. that i would hit them with that black hills. and that would motivate them to either stop there stupidity or flee before I aimed higher for there head..
could i use mil 55gr fmj yes.. do i want to put my kids at risk no.. so my theory was hit them with the 36gr black hills and put them down..
now of course this is just a theory of mine seeing as i am never home due to work..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's an article you might want to read for some insight: Link</div></div>
thank you for the link, and the info it brought to the table..
has me thinking of changing my "HOME DEFENSE" load..
which has been black hills
.223 Remington
36 Gr. Varmint Grenade
Velocity 3750 FPS
Energy 1124 Ft. Lbs.
my feeling was that if someone was stupid enough to enter my house, and live thru the dogs, pitbull and mr barky the corgi/eskimo mix.. that i would hit them with that black hills. and that would motivate them to either stop there stupidity or flee before I aimed higher for there head..
could i use mil 55gr fmj yes.. do i want to put my kids at risk no.. so my theory was hit them with the 36gr black hills and put them down..
now of course this is just a theory of mine seeing as i am never home due to work..
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
I tend to think 36gr may UNDER penetrate. And that could be bad as well.
Unrelated, but still of concern, one thing that comes to mind is noise. How loud is said firearm. I've been looking for a noise meter but can't find anything to measure over 130 db. Just so I can test a few different loads and calibers.
I tend to think 36gr may UNDER penetrate. And that could be bad as well.
Unrelated, but still of concern, one thing that comes to mind is noise. How loud is said firearm. I've been looking for a noise meter but can't find anything to measure over 130 db. Just so I can test a few different loads and calibers.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Underpenetration... Mmmmm, just shoot him a lot then
I'd vote for a V-max, maybe a factory round, just a bit more confidance in factory-ammo when it comes to life-or-death...
I'd think twice about varmint-grenade, if we take it down to size, A human would be small-game size, but a lot bugger than a g-dog... In theory, what would you use to hunt 170lb-antelope @ close range?
Underpenetration... Mmmmm, just shoot him a lot then
I'd vote for a V-max, maybe a factory round, just a bit more confidance in factory-ammo when it comes to life-or-death...
I'd think twice about varmint-grenade, if we take it down to size, A human would be small-game size, but a lot bugger than a g-dog... In theory, what would you use to hunt 170lb-antelope @ close range?
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Several schools of thought here...
1. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it so a rifle for home defense could cause collateral damage that may cost you. Particularly an auto that potentially could release 20 or more rounds in a panic.
2. If you have to break out your rifle to defend your home things are likely bad enough to justify using it. Assuming you're not a hothead with anger issues. Just keep in mind #1 above.
3. If you're going to shoot someone, the last thing you need is for them to survive the shot long enough to sue you (or return fire) so you clearly want them to stay shot.
Personally I keep a loaded .40, .45 , & .380 at the ready at all times stashed at strategic locations whos only purpose is to help me make it to my Mossberg Defender loaded with OOO-buck. If you live in an area where the potential for collateral damage is high then a rifle is a risky proposition no matter what ammo you choose. A shotgun is cheap, less likely to over-penetrate, and will take someone out of the fight even if you just graze them. More importantly, you don't have to be a good shot and it's unlikely any human can survive a shotgun blast to the torso within 50 yards. Even you you hit an arm or leg they'll bleed out in a hurry and I will have forgotten how to administer first aid.
If things are really that bad where I feel I need a rifle I'm grabbing the SASS and don't care where the lead flies.
All that said I keep my AR loaded with TAP and .223 would be my last choice.
Several schools of thought here...
1. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it so a rifle for home defense could cause collateral damage that may cost you. Particularly an auto that potentially could release 20 or more rounds in a panic.
2. If you have to break out your rifle to defend your home things are likely bad enough to justify using it. Assuming you're not a hothead with anger issues. Just keep in mind #1 above.
3. If you're going to shoot someone, the last thing you need is for them to survive the shot long enough to sue you (or return fire) so you clearly want them to stay shot.
Personally I keep a loaded .40, .45 , & .380 at the ready at all times stashed at strategic locations whos only purpose is to help me make it to my Mossberg Defender loaded with OOO-buck. If you live in an area where the potential for collateral damage is high then a rifle is a risky proposition no matter what ammo you choose. A shotgun is cheap, less likely to over-penetrate, and will take someone out of the fight even if you just graze them. More importantly, you don't have to be a good shot and it's unlikely any human can survive a shotgun blast to the torso within 50 yards. Even you you hit an arm or leg they'll bleed out in a hurry and I will have forgotten how to administer first aid.
If things are really that bad where I feel I need a rifle I'm grabbing the SASS and don't care where the lead flies.
All that said I keep my AR loaded with TAP and .223 would be my last choice.
G
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Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackal_5_Actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
yes it worked, but its not designed for home defense. </div></div>
Then why make the situation more difficult?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackal_5_Actual</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
yes it worked, but its not designed for home defense. </div></div>
Then why make the situation more difficult?
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Now I completely agree with the poster who said gelatin is everythin' but if you look at this picture:
Link
Their testing shows pistol bullets penetrating further even than a 155gr. VMAX after going through wallboard. Now the author admits that proper bullet choice (he mentions Ranger-T's) can result in proper performance even after penetrating wallboard.
Now I completely agree with the poster who said gelatin is everythin' but if you look at this picture:
Their testing shows pistol bullets penetrating further even than a 155gr. VMAX after going through wallboard. Now the author admits that proper bullet choice (he mentions Ranger-T's) can result in proper performance even after penetrating wallboard.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
^^^Exactly.
Anybody that thinks that an M193 55gr will "over penetrate" is sadly mistaken. A 9mm, or a shotgun slug will do a lot more penetration that a 55gr M193 ever would or could. Yes if you are shooting like a Hornady SST, or Barnes solid copper then it will go thru everything. But The M193 fragments pretty bad, specially in home defense situations since the velocities are very high before they hit objects such as doors, sheet rock, trusses etc.
This is why LEO use rounds specifically designed for barrier because the regular 55gr is very poor at that. I took four 18x18" 1/2" sheet rocks to my range and placed two of them 4" apart, and the two pairs about 3 feet apart. I shot at it from my 14.5" Noveske with regular 55gr XM193 and the round went thru the first sheet rock and already made a oblong hole in the 2nd sheet rock and by the 3rd sheet rock it made three holes after fragmenting and made small dents on the fourth sheet rock.
That is not even a real test because there were no frames, trusses etc that a bullet might also hit. A 55gr M193 traveling high velocity particularly in less than 25-50 yards is devastating. If you dont believe me look at these pics. This is someone that was shot in the leg with a 55gr M193. Look at all the fragments in the guys leg. So you still think M193 55gr is not enough for home defense????
^^^Exactly.
Anybody that thinks that an M193 55gr will "over penetrate" is sadly mistaken. A 9mm, or a shotgun slug will do a lot more penetration that a 55gr M193 ever would or could. Yes if you are shooting like a Hornady SST, or Barnes solid copper then it will go thru everything. But The M193 fragments pretty bad, specially in home defense situations since the velocities are very high before they hit objects such as doors, sheet rock, trusses etc.
This is why LEO use rounds specifically designed for barrier because the regular 55gr is very poor at that. I took four 18x18" 1/2" sheet rocks to my range and placed two of them 4" apart, and the two pairs about 3 feet apart. I shot at it from my 14.5" Noveske with regular 55gr XM193 and the round went thru the first sheet rock and already made a oblong hole in the 2nd sheet rock and by the 3rd sheet rock it made three holes after fragmenting and made small dents on the fourth sheet rock.
That is not even a real test because there were no frames, trusses etc that a bullet might also hit. A 55gr M193 traveling high velocity particularly in less than 25-50 yards is devastating. If you dont believe me look at these pics. This is someone that was shot in the leg with a 55gr M193. Look at all the fragments in the guys leg. So you still think M193 55gr is not enough for home defense????
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
It hit a big bone... Any round hitting that portion of the leg would have resulted in similar if not same damage. Point is there are better rounds for shooting people inside a house.
It hit a big bone... Any round hitting that portion of the leg would have resulted in similar if not same damage. Point is there are better rounds for shooting people inside a house.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It hit a big bone... Any round hitting that portion of the leg would have resulted in similar if not same damage. Point is there are better rounds for shooting people inside a house. </div></div>
Sorry, as a physician that has worked in a Trauma One center you are 100% wrong. A 9mm, 357 sig, 40 SW etc will go right through that that "big bone" and never shatter. Other larger heaver mass type bullets also will not shatter like that. The M193 was meant to fragment if traveling above ~2750ft/sec. Even out of my 14.5" barrel the XM193 is coming out at 3020ft/sec. In contact distances, that round will violently fragment and really fuck someone up.
Also, your point would be correct if that bullet made a small entry wound and ONLY a large exit because it "hit a big bone." But in this case, you can tell from the entrance wound that it most likely fragmented on contact due to high velocity. That is why the entrance wound is actually larger than exit. So it did not fragment because of the bone. This round exhibits the exact same characteristics on just flesh/gel with no bone in it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It hit a big bone... Any round hitting that portion of the leg would have resulted in similar if not same damage. Point is there are better rounds for shooting people inside a house. </div></div>
Sorry, as a physician that has worked in a Trauma One center you are 100% wrong. A 9mm, 357 sig, 40 SW etc will go right through that that "big bone" and never shatter. Other larger heaver mass type bullets also will not shatter like that. The M193 was meant to fragment if traveling above ~2750ft/sec. Even out of my 14.5" barrel the XM193 is coming out at 3020ft/sec. In contact distances, that round will violently fragment and really fuck someone up.
Also, your point would be correct if that bullet made a small entry wound and ONLY a large exit because it "hit a big bone." But in this case, you can tell from the entrance wound that it most likely fragmented on contact due to high velocity. That is why the entrance wound is actually larger than exit. So it did not fragment because of the bone. This round exhibits the exact same characteristics on just flesh/gel with no bone in it.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Any high velocity round has a good chance of traveling through barriers. And this is sometimes a good thing. Like someone hiding behind a door, couch, doorjam, wall etc. It's nice to have a gun that will punch through that and still kill them. Because that is the deal here. To kill them. The rifle just happens to be the tool in your hand. If you don't know where friendlies are but have to take a shot, shoot low. Aim for the hips/pelvis and continue to engage as they go down until they are no longer among the living. Your overpenetreating rounds will likely hit the ground or low on the wall behind them, dissapating alot of it's energy. Then you can run whatever ammo you want. This enables you to continue the fight wherever it may go. You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you. If that doesn't sit well then load a 12 guage with birdshot. It'll do a number on anyone at close range, but it's overpenetration capability is low.
Any high velocity round has a good chance of traveling through barriers. And this is sometimes a good thing. Like someone hiding behind a door, couch, doorjam, wall etc. It's nice to have a gun that will punch through that and still kill them. Because that is the deal here. To kill them. The rifle just happens to be the tool in your hand. If you don't know where friendlies are but have to take a shot, shoot low. Aim for the hips/pelvis and continue to engage as they go down until they are no longer among the living. Your overpenetreating rounds will likely hit the ground or low on the wall behind them, dissapating alot of it's energy. Then you can run whatever ammo you want. This enables you to continue the fight wherever it may go. You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you. If that doesn't sit well then load a 12 guage with birdshot. It'll do a number on anyone at close range, but it's overpenetration capability is low.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you.</div></div>
I understand your point, however, this might not play out too well in a home defense situation
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you.</div></div>
I understand your point, however, this might not play out too well in a home defense situation
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
At the end of the day, speculating about exactly how a bullet will perform in a given situation is just that...speculation, and all of the "controlled" tests with ballistic gel go out the window. The best thing to do is to just shoot the mofo with whatever you have before he shoots you. Then shoot him again just to make sure he's dead.
At the end of the day, speculating about exactly how a bullet will perform in a given situation is just that...speculation, and all of the "controlled" tests with ballistic gel go out the window. The best thing to do is to just shoot the mofo with whatever you have before he shoots you. Then shoot him again just to make sure he's dead.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you.</div></div>
I understand your point, however, this might not play out too well in a home defense situation
</div></div>
True,
Unless you can prove that you thought they were going for reinforcements or a better position or maybe better weapons. But I see where you are going with that. Best to make sure your's is the only story to tell though. Hard for a perp to show up in court with a new suit and a sob story if they aren't breathing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you.</div></div>
I understand your point, however, this might not play out too well in a home defense situation
True,
Unless you can prove that you thought they were going for reinforcements or a better position or maybe better weapons. But I see where you are going with that. Best to make sure your's is the only story to tell though. Hard for a perp to show up in court with a new suit and a sob story if they aren't breathing.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
My preference would be for 75gr TAP if your rifle will support it.
Our duty load is the 55gr Federal TRU. It performs well when barriers are not present. It does not penetrate intermediate barriers well. This is not a good thing. When I grab a rifle. I WANT a rifle. Rifles put holes in things and put holes in the things behind things. As long as you know this, it's a good thing. I don't want a rifle round that is stopped by a door or an interior wall. But that's just me. When they were considering the duty load for our Patrol Rifles they had to take into consideration the lowers common denominator. These are the officers who touch their rifle once a year at qualification and BARELY qualify. I don't much want them sending rounds through someone's house and into the next house. But then again "I" would like a round that at least has a passable chance of making it through a car door and doing some damage on the intended target.
My preference would be for 75gr TAP if your rifle will support it.
Our duty load is the 55gr Federal TRU. It performs well when barriers are not present. It does not penetrate intermediate barriers well. This is not a good thing. When I grab a rifle. I WANT a rifle. Rifles put holes in things and put holes in the things behind things. As long as you know this, it's a good thing. I don't want a rifle round that is stopped by a door or an interior wall. But that's just me. When they were considering the duty load for our Patrol Rifles they had to take into consideration the lowers common denominator. These are the officers who touch their rifle once a year at qualification and BARELY qualify. I don't much want them sending rounds through someone's house and into the next house. But then again "I" would like a round that at least has a passable chance of making it through a car door and doing some damage on the intended target.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Ok from everything that has been added I would have to say in a home defense situation the best thing more so than ammo is the person who holds the gun. Just becouse you own a gun does not meen you know how to defend yourself with it. If you do not feel like you have what it takes when all goes south then take a class and find some training on the how to of home defense.
I don;t know how many of you practice in no light situations with only your flashlight and pistol or mounted light and rifle.
Know the layout of your house and know it well. You will be able to tell if something is out of place more than anyone. I also have never carried a 9mm for the obvious reasons. I carry a .40 and have my rifle close by, this goes for everyday wherever I am.
I think its good to be prepared but know that nothing can prepare you for what might and could take place in your home.
JMHO
Ok from everything that has been added I would have to say in a home defense situation the best thing more so than ammo is the person who holds the gun. Just becouse you own a gun does not meen you know how to defend yourself with it. If you do not feel like you have what it takes when all goes south then take a class and find some training on the how to of home defense.
I don;t know how many of you practice in no light situations with only your flashlight and pistol or mounted light and rifle.
Know the layout of your house and know it well. You will be able to tell if something is out of place more than anyone. I also have never carried a 9mm for the obvious reasons. I carry a .40 and have my rifle close by, this goes for everyday wherever I am.
I think its good to be prepared but know that nothing can prepare you for what might and could take place in your home.
JMHO
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
I should have been more specific. When I said any round I meant of 5.56/.223.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It hit a big bone... Any round hitting that portion of the leg would have resulted in similar if not same damage. Point is there are better rounds for shooting people inside a house. </div></div>
Sorry, as a physician that has worked in a Trauma One center you are 100% wrong. A 9mm, 357 sig, 40 SW etc will go right through that that "big bone" and never shatter. Other larger heaver mass type bullets also will not shatter like that. The M193 was meant to fragment if traveling above ~2750ft/sec. Even out of my 14.5" barrel the XM193 is coming out at 3020ft/sec. In contact distances, that round will violently fragment and really fuck someone up.
Also, your point would be correct if that bullet made a small entry wound and ONLY a large exit because it "hit a big bone." But in this case, you can tell from the entrance wound that it most likely fragmented on contact due to high velocity. That is why the entrance wound is actually larger than exit. So it did not fragment because of the bone. This round exhibits the exact same characteristics on just flesh/gel with no bone in it. </div></div>
I should have been more specific. When I said any round I meant of 5.56/.223.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It hit a big bone... Any round hitting that portion of the leg would have resulted in similar if not same damage. Point is there are better rounds for shooting people inside a house. </div></div>
Sorry, as a physician that has worked in a Trauma One center you are 100% wrong. A 9mm, 357 sig, 40 SW etc will go right through that that "big bone" and never shatter. Other larger heaver mass type bullets also will not shatter like that. The M193 was meant to fragment if traveling above ~2750ft/sec. Even out of my 14.5" barrel the XM193 is coming out at 3020ft/sec. In contact distances, that round will violently fragment and really fuck someone up.
Also, your point would be correct if that bullet made a small entry wound and ONLY a large exit because it "hit a big bone." But in this case, you can tell from the entrance wound that it most likely fragmented on contact due to high velocity. That is why the entrance wound is actually larger than exit. So it did not fragment because of the bone. This round exhibits the exact same characteristics on just flesh/gel with no bone in it. </div></div>
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Going to the local gun shop tomorrow to see what they have in stock. I have a 1:9 twist, and from everything ive read those can handle 60gr etc pretty well. Im not too concerned with overall performance and tumbling as this more or less for home defense in CQB. I stick with my 5.56 mainly because it is what I am comfortable and skilled with. I have a few handguns around as well, but they are mainly only a tool to ensure I can get to my rifle if need be. I do not live in a high crime area, but as many areas are experiencing, the crime is moving into the area thanks to public transportation. East St.Louis is only 15 mins from my house, and the Metro Link aka "Crime Link" allows the scum to travel easily, commit a crime, and return to the slums with little to no effort. I hope this situation never presents itself on my property, but I stand ready to defend my property and more importantly my family from all threats. Once again thanks for all the input and by all means continue the discussion. Alot of good insight into the matter, and an overall great "meeting" of minds.
Going to the local gun shop tomorrow to see what they have in stock. I have a 1:9 twist, and from everything ive read those can handle 60gr etc pretty well. Im not too concerned with overall performance and tumbling as this more or less for home defense in CQB. I stick with my 5.56 mainly because it is what I am comfortable and skilled with. I have a few handguns around as well, but they are mainly only a tool to ensure I can get to my rifle if need be. I do not live in a high crime area, but as many areas are experiencing, the crime is moving into the area thanks to public transportation. East St.Louis is only 15 mins from my house, and the Metro Link aka "Crime Link" allows the scum to travel easily, commit a crime, and return to the slums with little to no effort. I hope this situation never presents itself on my property, but I stand ready to defend my property and more importantly my family from all threats. Once again thanks for all the input and by all means continue the discussion. Alot of good insight into the matter, and an overall great "meeting" of minds.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
personally, I like 62 gr. Hornady TAP Barrier or 55 gr V-Max for CQB (depending on the circumstances) in my 14.5" 1:9.
personally, I like 62 gr. Hornady TAP Barrier or 55 gr V-Max for CQB (depending on the circumstances) in my 14.5" 1:9.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
For what it's worth, I set up a test a couple of years ago to see what different .223 ammo did to drywall. I built five 3' x 4' walls and shot them with eight factory loads and two hand loads IIRC from an AR15 and a Ruger Mini-14. The round that penetrated the LEAST on drywall was 55 grain Hornady TAP manf# 83276, which started breaking up after the second wall. A 124 grain 9mm went through all five with no issues, as did a .357 magnum with blue Glaser Saftey Slugs.
I have kids in my small house, so I wanted to know if small caliber rifle rounds would penetrate drywall less than pistol rounds. They did. I further tested several of the .223 rounds that penetrated the least by shooting a stack of wet phonebooks behind one wall (two pieces of drywall) to see if they would expand. They did. Wet phonebooks are not flesh, and weren't meant to be a substitute, but were used to see if the bullet itself was still capable of expanding after a wall challenge, as I agree with the above poster that when I pick up a rifle to shoot the boogey man I want to be able to shoot through stuff; I just don't want to penetrate lots and lots of stuff.
I'll have to dig those pictures up and make a post about them sometime.
For what it's worth, I set up a test a couple of years ago to see what different .223 ammo did to drywall. I built five 3' x 4' walls and shot them with eight factory loads and two hand loads IIRC from an AR15 and a Ruger Mini-14. The round that penetrated the LEAST on drywall was 55 grain Hornady TAP manf# 83276, which started breaking up after the second wall. A 124 grain 9mm went through all five with no issues, as did a .357 magnum with blue Glaser Saftey Slugs.
I have kids in my small house, so I wanted to know if small caliber rifle rounds would penetrate drywall less than pistol rounds. They did. I further tested several of the .223 rounds that penetrated the least by shooting a stack of wet phonebooks behind one wall (two pieces of drywall) to see if they would expand. They did. Wet phonebooks are not flesh, and weren't meant to be a substitute, but were used to see if the bullet itself was still capable of expanding after a wall challenge, as I agree with the above poster that when I pick up a rifle to shoot the boogey man I want to be able to shoot through stuff; I just don't want to penetrate lots and lots of stuff.
I'll have to dig those pictures up and make a post about them sometime.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Fiocchi .223 Remington 45-Gr. Lead-Free Frangible Ammunition
Anything else is a liability.
Even better, get a 12 gauge pump 870, saw it off, and load it up with bird-shot.
(I know that wasn't your question, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry)
Fiocchi .223 Remington 45-Gr. Lead-Free Frangible Ammunition
Anything else is a liability.
Even better, get a 12 gauge pump 870, saw it off, and load it up with bird-shot.
(I know that wasn't your question, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry)
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you.</div></div>
I understand your point, however, this might not play out too well in a home defense situation
</div></div>
True,
Unless you can prove that you thought they were going for reinforcements or a better position or maybe better weapons. But I see where you are going with that. Best to make sure your's is the only story to tell though. Hard for a perp to show up in court with a new suit and a sob story if they aren't breathing.
</div></div>
Again JJ, I get where you are coming from, but all 50 states have a pretty narrow definition of lethal force justification. Using lethal force on a perp moving <span style="text-decoration: underline">away</span> from the threat window will not hold up in virutally any argument. As far as I know, this applies to LE as well. Obviously, MIL application would be subject to ROE. I'm breaking Graham's Rule #1 by even commenting, but I have had personal experience in dealing with a DA in a self defense shooting situation. My argument for the use of lethal force stood and he dropped the case. However, had the perp been a few feet outside of the threat window, things probably would have gone the other way. It really came down to a few degrees of angle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to take out the driver, or shoot someone at range as they maneuver away from you.</div></div>
I understand your point, however, this might not play out too well in a home defense situation
True,
Unless you can prove that you thought they were going for reinforcements or a better position or maybe better weapons. But I see where you are going with that. Best to make sure your's is the only story to tell though. Hard for a perp to show up in court with a new suit and a sob story if they aren't breathing.
</div></div>
Again JJ, I get where you are coming from, but all 50 states have a pretty narrow definition of lethal force justification. Using lethal force on a perp moving <span style="text-decoration: underline">away</span> from the threat window will not hold up in virutally any argument. As far as I know, this applies to LE as well. Obviously, MIL application would be subject to ROE. I'm breaking Graham's Rule #1 by even commenting, but I have had personal experience in dealing with a DA in a self defense shooting situation. My argument for the use of lethal force stood and he dropped the case. However, had the perp been a few feet outside of the threat window, things probably would have gone the other way. It really came down to a few degrees of angle.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fiocchi .223 Remington 45-Gr. Lead-Free Frangible Ammunition
Anything else is a liability.
Even better, get a 12 gauge pump 870, saw it off, and load it up with bird-shot.
(I know that wasn't your question, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry) </div></div>
I hope you were being sarcastic becouse to tell someone to break the law by sawing their barrel off is dumb as dumb gets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fiocchi .223 Remington 45-Gr. Lead-Free Frangible Ammunition
Anything else is a liability.
Even better, get a 12 gauge pump 870, saw it off, and load it up with bird-shot.
(I know that wasn't your question, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry) </div></div>
I hope you were being sarcastic becouse to tell someone to break the law by sawing their barrel off is dumb as dumb gets.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Google Dr Gary Roberts. He is way up to date on 556 ammo.
FBI has been wearing out the testing labs with 556 test for several years. Based on that work, look at a 60-62gr BONDED bullet(that stuff works).....
Google Dr Gary Roberts. He is way up to date on 556 ammo.
FBI has been wearing out the testing labs with 556 test for several years. Based on that work, look at a 60-62gr BONDED bullet(that stuff works).....
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it so a rifle for home defense could cause collateral damage that may cost you. Particularly an auto that potentially could release 20 or more rounds in a panic.</div></div>
Lets consider the lawyer aspect. Ever seen how many walls a 9mm round will go through? Ive seen a round go through an exterior wall, through a deck railing(2" dim of a 2x4), through another exterior wall and finally stopped in a ceiling. Vs. 5.56 that, in most loads, will begin breaking up after the first wall. This is from having actually seen it by trying. I fail to see where 20rds has any bearing on the argument unless you're suggesting that someone would just keep pulling the trigger but we can invalidate that with a 17rd Glock 17 mag in a 9mm as it could argued that a person would do the same with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. If you have to break out your rifle to defend your home things are likely bad enough to justify using it. Assuming you're not a hothead with anger issues. Just keep in mind #1 above.</div></div>
Not totally sure what you were getting at here.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. If you're going to shoot someone, the last thing you need is for them to survive the shot long enough to sue you (or return fire) so you clearly want them to stay shot.</div></div>
You shoot neither to kill nor to wound but to STOP THE THREAT. You want them to stop doing whatever it is that made you shoot them. If you shoot them with a handgun, they have a fairly high chance of survival (typically fatal only about 25% of the time IIRC.) Even if they don't survive, the next of kin will likely try to sue you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A shotgun is cheap, </div></div>
Yes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">less likely to over-penetrate,</div></div>
Vs. 9mm, yes.
Vs. 5.56/.223, No, unless you're using AP or something in the AR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and will take someone out of the fight even if you just graze them. More importantly, you don't have to be a good shot and it's unlikely any human can survive a shotgun blast to the torso within 50 yards. </div></div>
Graze them? Really? News flash. A pattern from a shotgun at 15 ft (we're talking indoors here) is unlikely to be any larger than an orange. And you are going to say you don't have to be "a good shot"? I disagree.
As far as "and it's unlikely any human can survive a shotgun blast to the torso within 50 yards", unlikely? I'd invite you to listen to Jim Cirillo's experiences while he was with NYPD's Stakeout Squad. They had people not go down after being hit with 12ga. It wasn't a one time occurrence either.
There is a widespread misconception that a pistol, rifle, or shotgun, is some sort of magical one-shot-stop talisman. That just IS NOT true. Not one of them is ever a guaranteed one shot stop, maybe not even a multi shot stop. Sure, they <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> die, but they may do it after they've used a knife to gut you.
There is a reason that, in many locales, SWAT teams have switched from 9mm MP5s to AR variants in 5.56 or .223
Not trying to bust your chops, just pass a little knowledge along.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it so a rifle for home defense could cause collateral damage that may cost you. Particularly an auto that potentially could release 20 or more rounds in a panic.</div></div>
Lets consider the lawyer aspect. Ever seen how many walls a 9mm round will go through? Ive seen a round go through an exterior wall, through a deck railing(2" dim of a 2x4), through another exterior wall and finally stopped in a ceiling. Vs. 5.56 that, in most loads, will begin breaking up after the first wall. This is from having actually seen it by trying. I fail to see where 20rds has any bearing on the argument unless you're suggesting that someone would just keep pulling the trigger but we can invalidate that with a 17rd Glock 17 mag in a 9mm as it could argued that a person would do the same with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. If you have to break out your rifle to defend your home things are likely bad enough to justify using it. Assuming you're not a hothead with anger issues. Just keep in mind #1 above.</div></div>
Not totally sure what you were getting at here.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. If you're going to shoot someone, the last thing you need is for them to survive the shot long enough to sue you (or return fire) so you clearly want them to stay shot.</div></div>
You shoot neither to kill nor to wound but to STOP THE THREAT. You want them to stop doing whatever it is that made you shoot them. If you shoot them with a handgun, they have a fairly high chance of survival (typically fatal only about 25% of the time IIRC.) Even if they don't survive, the next of kin will likely try to sue you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A shotgun is cheap, </div></div>
Yes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">less likely to over-penetrate,</div></div>
Vs. 9mm, yes.
Vs. 5.56/.223, No, unless you're using AP or something in the AR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and will take someone out of the fight even if you just graze them. More importantly, you don't have to be a good shot and it's unlikely any human can survive a shotgun blast to the torso within 50 yards. </div></div>
Graze them? Really? News flash. A pattern from a shotgun at 15 ft (we're talking indoors here) is unlikely to be any larger than an orange. And you are going to say you don't have to be "a good shot"? I disagree.
As far as "and it's unlikely any human can survive a shotgun blast to the torso within 50 yards", unlikely? I'd invite you to listen to Jim Cirillo's experiences while he was with NYPD's Stakeout Squad. They had people not go down after being hit with 12ga. It wasn't a one time occurrence either.
There is a widespread misconception that a pistol, rifle, or shotgun, is some sort of magical one-shot-stop talisman. That just IS NOT true. Not one of them is ever a guaranteed one shot stop, maybe not even a multi shot stop. Sure, they <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> die, but they may do it after they've used a knife to gut you.
There is a reason that, in many locales, SWAT teams have switched from 9mm MP5s to AR variants in 5.56 or .223
Not trying to bust your chops, just pass a little knowledge along.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
This is what I keep in my AR, at the time I chose them it was due to overpenetration concerns. I think I'll switch to something with 69gr SMK's at some point now, though. They're accurate, but they aren't going to penetrate much, better shoot 'em again just to be sure.
This is what I keep in my AR, at the time I chose them it was due to overpenetration concerns. I think I'll switch to something with 69gr SMK's at some point now, though. They're accurate, but they aren't going to penetrate much, better shoot 'em again just to be sure.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fiocchi .223 Remington 45-Gr. Lead-Free Frangible Ammunition
Anything else is a liability.
Even better, get a 12 gauge pump 870, saw it off, and load it up with bird-shot.
(I know that wasn't your question, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry) </div></div>
I hope you were being sarcastic becouse to tell someone to break the law by sawing their barrel off is dumb as dumb gets. </div></div>
Let me clarify. Buy a cheap 870 express; the one that comes with a 28 or 30 inch barrel, saw it back to 18.5 inches, and then throw a magnetic fiber optic sight up front.
No sarcasm, just a misunderstanding.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utnapishtim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fiocchi .223 Remington 45-Gr. Lead-Free Frangible Ammunition
Anything else is a liability.
Even better, get a 12 gauge pump 870, saw it off, and load it up with bird-shot.
(I know that wasn't your question, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry) </div></div>
I hope you were being sarcastic becouse to tell someone to break the law by sawing their barrel off is dumb as dumb gets. </div></div>
Let me clarify. Buy a cheap 870 express; the one that comes with a 28 or 30 inch barrel, saw it back to 18.5 inches, and then throw a magnetic fiber optic sight up front.
No sarcasm, just a misunderstanding.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Judging from some of the information provided to achieve proper fragmentation you want the bullet to impact during yaw. In a CQB situation its almost like you don't have to worry about bullet stabilization, because you want it to fragment as much as possible...unless of course your looking to shoot through something....I hope I'm not erring on wrong judgment on my observations.
Judging from some of the information provided to achieve proper fragmentation you want the bullet to impact during yaw. In a CQB situation its almost like you don't have to worry about bullet stabilization, because you want it to fragment as much as possible...unless of course your looking to shoot through something....I hope I'm not erring on wrong judgment on my observations.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveAgain</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> JJ, I get where you are coming from, but all 50 states have a pretty narrow definition of lethal force justification. Using lethal force on a perp moving <span style="text-decoration: underline">away</span> from the threat window will not hold up in virutally any argument. As far as I know, this applies to LE as well. Obviously, MIL application would be subject to ROE. I'm breaking Graham's Rule #1 by even commenting, but I have had personal experience in dealing with a DA in a self defense shooting situation. My argument for the use of lethal force stood and he dropped the case. However, had the perp been a few feet outside of the threat window, things probably would have gone the other way. It really came down to a few degrees of angle. </div></div>
You might want to be careful making blanket statements. As far I can tell what you know of lethal force statutes is not much (giggle, there's a joke there).
Many mention nothing about the direction the bad guy needs to be moving rather they generally hinge on the acts the bad guy has committed and could potentially commit and how that victim percieves those acts as a threat.
For instance if I awake in the middle of the night to a bad guy in my living room. Said bad guy fires a shot at me and misses while fleeing out the front door. I shoot bad guy in the back running across my front lawn. Legal in Utah, as it is legal to apply lethal force to a perpetrator of a forcible felony in an effort to prevent escape or commission of further forcible felonies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveAgain</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> JJ, I get where you are coming from, but all 50 states have a pretty narrow definition of lethal force justification. Using lethal force on a perp moving <span style="text-decoration: underline">away</span> from the threat window will not hold up in virutally any argument. As far as I know, this applies to LE as well. Obviously, MIL application would be subject to ROE. I'm breaking Graham's Rule #1 by even commenting, but I have had personal experience in dealing with a DA in a self defense shooting situation. My argument for the use of lethal force stood and he dropped the case. However, had the perp been a few feet outside of the threat window, things probably would have gone the other way. It really came down to a few degrees of angle. </div></div>
You might want to be careful making blanket statements. As far I can tell what you know of lethal force statutes is not much (giggle, there's a joke there).
Many mention nothing about the direction the bad guy needs to be moving rather they generally hinge on the acts the bad guy has committed and could potentially commit and how that victim percieves those acts as a threat.
For instance if I awake in the middle of the night to a bad guy in my living room. Said bad guy fires a shot at me and misses while fleeing out the front door. I shoot bad guy in the back running across my front lawn. Legal in Utah, as it is legal to apply lethal force to a perpetrator of a forcible felony in an effort to prevent escape or commission of further forcible felonies.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For instance if I awake in the middle of the night to a bad guy in my living room. Said bad guy fires a shot at me and misses while fleeing out the front door. I shoot bad guy in the back running across my front lawn. Legal in Utah, as it is legal to apply lethal force to a perpetrator of a forcible felony in an effort to prevent escape or commission of further forcible felonies.
</div></div>
IL too.....which says something.
Say it with me boys and girls:
<span style="font-weight: bold">TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCE</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For instance if I awake in the middle of the night to a bad guy in my living room. Said bad guy fires a shot at me and misses while fleeing out the front door. I shoot bad guy in the back running across my front lawn. Legal in Utah, as it is legal to apply lethal force to a perpetrator of a forcible felony in an effort to prevent escape or commission of further forcible felonies.
</div></div>
IL too.....which says something.
Say it with me boys and girls:
<span style="font-weight: bold">TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCE</span>
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine#cite_ref-9
I wouldn't think that Wikipedia would be a good place to do your legal research, especially regarding a topic where the choice may be between accepting a certain level of danger for you and/or your family, vs. spending years in jail due to an unsympathetic jury deciding that your actions seemed a bit too much like vigilantism. Unless you're a law enforcement officer, your actions and choices will be scrutinized in the minutest detail, regardless of the laws of the state in which you dwell. Civilians, even those in the military, are not allowed to pursue criminals.
Personally, I have no kids yet, so if my wife and I are in bed, and there's an intruder in my house, my wife and I will be back off to the corner of the bedroom, perpendicular to the door, I will yell out that I have a gun, and I'm calling 911. If the intruder leaves, great, if not, then I will await the police. If, however, the intrude opens the bedroom door, then it will be their last act.
The plan may change, once I have children whom will be residing in a different room.
Regardless, even though I have an M4 profile AR, It's not my go-to gun for home defense for several reasons.
1 - Over penetration. I don't want to be responsible for the death of the neighbor's kid.
2 - I'm very confidant that a round or three of 12 gauge birdshot will end any encounter.
3 - I don't want a fancy lawyer telling a jury that my evil black rifle is proof that I'm some sort of angry, fantasy-prone, John Rambo / Charles Bronson wannabee.
4 - If the police confiscate the weapon involved, and they most certainly will, I'll be happier with them walking away with my $250 shotgun, vs. my $2500 AR.
All that said, if you're still intent on using the AR, my suggestion of the frangible ammo stands. With this ammo, you've at least exercised "reasonable care" in attempting to mitigate the possibility of over penetration, which might harm your neighbors.
Now, if my home is being attacked by zombies, or a riot, or something else which I find nearly unimaginable, then the AR has it's place. . . . but then that's something entirely different than home defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine#cite_ref-9
I wouldn't think that Wikipedia would be a good place to do your legal research, especially regarding a topic where the choice may be between accepting a certain level of danger for you and/or your family, vs. spending years in jail due to an unsympathetic jury deciding that your actions seemed a bit too much like vigilantism. Unless you're a law enforcement officer, your actions and choices will be scrutinized in the minutest detail, regardless of the laws of the state in which you dwell. Civilians, even those in the military, are not allowed to pursue criminals.
Personally, I have no kids yet, so if my wife and I are in bed, and there's an intruder in my house, my wife and I will be back off to the corner of the bedroom, perpendicular to the door, I will yell out that I have a gun, and I'm calling 911. If the intruder leaves, great, if not, then I will await the police. If, however, the intrude opens the bedroom door, then it will be their last act.
The plan may change, once I have children whom will be residing in a different room.
Regardless, even though I have an M4 profile AR, It's not my go-to gun for home defense for several reasons.
1 - Over penetration. I don't want to be responsible for the death of the neighbor's kid.
2 - I'm very confidant that a round or three of 12 gauge birdshot will end any encounter.
3 - I don't want a fancy lawyer telling a jury that my evil black rifle is proof that I'm some sort of angry, fantasy-prone, John Rambo / Charles Bronson wannabee.
4 - If the police confiscate the weapon involved, and they most certainly will, I'll be happier with them walking away with my $250 shotgun, vs. my $2500 AR.
All that said, if you're still intent on using the AR, my suggestion of the frangible ammo stands. With this ammo, you've at least exercised "reasonable care" in attempting to mitigate the possibility of over penetration, which might harm your neighbors.
Now, if my home is being attacked by zombies, or a riot, or something else which I find nearly unimaginable, then the AR has it's place. . . . but then that's something entirely different than home defense.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Why do we keep posting these "AR for home defense", "Birdshot buck or slug for hd", ".223 ammo for hd" questions......much less draw ourselves into the same dogpile clusterfuck of a thread arguing in circles about terminal ballistics, over penetration and legal matters?
Home Defense is not a simple issue. People need to learn that their choice needs to made on a myriad of factors. While an AR may be optimum for some, it just simply is NOT going to work for others PERIOD. I don't care how good you may be, I have a hard time putting the safety of anyone down range in the hands of what a bullet is SUPPOSED to do when it hits something. And don't say "It's only if you miss". You're going to miss at some point; it's a fact.
If you're serious about this shit, think about the advise you give an OP. Is it best for their needs or yours?
Why do we keep posting these "AR for home defense", "Birdshot buck or slug for hd", ".223 ammo for hd" questions......much less draw ourselves into the same dogpile clusterfuck of a thread arguing in circles about terminal ballistics, over penetration and legal matters?
Home Defense is not a simple issue. People need to learn that their choice needs to made on a myriad of factors. While an AR may be optimum for some, it just simply is NOT going to work for others PERIOD. I don't care how good you may be, I have a hard time putting the safety of anyone down range in the hands of what a bullet is SUPPOSED to do when it hits something. And don't say "It's only if you miss". You're going to miss at some point; it's a fact.
If you're serious about this shit, think about the advise you give an OP. Is it best for their needs or yours?
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveAgain</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> JJ, I get where you are coming from, but all 50 states have a pretty narrow definition of lethal force justification. Using lethal force on a perp moving <span style="text-decoration: underline">away</span> from the threat window will not hold up in virutally any argument. As far as I know, this applies to LE as well. Obviously, MIL application would be subject to ROE. I'm breaking Graham's Rule #1 by even commenting, but I have had personal experience in dealing with a DA in a self defense shooting situation. My argument for the use of lethal force stood and he dropped the case. However, had the perp been a few feet outside of the threat window, things probably would have gone the other way. It really came down to a few degrees of angle. </div></div>
You might want to be careful making blanket statements. As far I can tell what you know of lethal force statutes is not much (giggle, there's a joke there).
Many mention nothing about the direction the bad guy needs to be moving rather they generally hinge on the acts the bad guy has committed and could potentially commit and how that victim percieves those acts as a threat.
For instance if I awake in the middle of the night to a bad guy in my living room. Said bad guy fires a shot at me and misses while fleeing out the front door. I shoot bad guy in the back running across my front lawn. Legal in Utah, as it is legal to apply lethal force to a perpetrator of a forcible felony in an effort to prevent escape or commission of further forcible felonies.
</div></div>
My "blanket" statement is based on what Ayoob teaches and testifies to as an expert witness:
<span style="font-style: italic">"The criteria of justifiable homicide: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Ability</span>: the opponent posses the power to kill or cripple. This power may come in the form of a weapon (gun, knife, club, etc.) or through disparity of force. Disparity of force can be legally established in various ways.
force of numbers: you versus a gang
able-bodied versus the disabled: you on crutches, your attacker is able-bodied. Note that if you become disabled in the course of a previously equal encounter, this criteria can suddenly become applicable
male versus female: the courts view this as an issue of cultural predispositioning, and of the average size and upper body strength of men versus women. The specifics of the size of the man versus that of the woman are not typically relevant (if Woody Allen attacks a 200 pound female weight lifter, the female can use deadly force against him). Every state in the US views lethal force as a legitimate defense against rape.
A digression: Per Department of Justice statistics, in the average year, 79% of the attackers in successful rapes are unarmed. With 14% of successful rapes, the attackers are armed only with contact weapons (knife, club, rope, etc.). Only in 7% of successful rapes are attackers armed with firearms.
physical size and strength: no clear legal standard for when this disparity exists, more of a case-by-case matter. For the closest thing to a commonly accepted legal standard, see Juste David Myers in the John Peters book Defensive Flashlight Techniques.
The other person is known to you to be a highly trained fighter
<span style="font-weight: bold">Opportunity</span>: capable of immediately employing the power to kill or cripple. Two components: distance and obstacles. Range typically not a factor with guns, but is with contact weapons. An unarmed home intruder who attempts to take away your weapon fulfills this criteria, even before he succeeds in taking your weapon away. Research done by Sgt. Dennis Tueller found that the average person can close 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. That is, an attacker armed with a knife who is seven yards away can be literally at your throat before you can draw and fire two rounds.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Jeopardy</span>: acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude he intended to kill or cripple." </span>
If you are comfortable with trying out your state's laws by shooting somebody in the back as they are fleeing, then have at it. What little I know will probably keep me out of jail
I'm done so this can get back on topic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveAgain</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> JJ, I get where you are coming from, but all 50 states have a pretty narrow definition of lethal force justification. Using lethal force on a perp moving <span style="text-decoration: underline">away</span> from the threat window will not hold up in virutally any argument. As far as I know, this applies to LE as well. Obviously, MIL application would be subject to ROE. I'm breaking Graham's Rule #1 by even commenting, but I have had personal experience in dealing with a DA in a self defense shooting situation. My argument for the use of lethal force stood and he dropped the case. However, had the perp been a few feet outside of the threat window, things probably would have gone the other way. It really came down to a few degrees of angle. </div></div>
You might want to be careful making blanket statements. As far I can tell what you know of lethal force statutes is not much (giggle, there's a joke there).
Many mention nothing about the direction the bad guy needs to be moving rather they generally hinge on the acts the bad guy has committed and could potentially commit and how that victim percieves those acts as a threat.
For instance if I awake in the middle of the night to a bad guy in my living room. Said bad guy fires a shot at me and misses while fleeing out the front door. I shoot bad guy in the back running across my front lawn. Legal in Utah, as it is legal to apply lethal force to a perpetrator of a forcible felony in an effort to prevent escape or commission of further forcible felonies.
</div></div>
My "blanket" statement is based on what Ayoob teaches and testifies to as an expert witness:
<span style="font-style: italic">"The criteria of justifiable homicide: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Ability</span>: the opponent posses the power to kill or cripple. This power may come in the form of a weapon (gun, knife, club, etc.) or through disparity of force. Disparity of force can be legally established in various ways.
force of numbers: you versus a gang
able-bodied versus the disabled: you on crutches, your attacker is able-bodied. Note that if you become disabled in the course of a previously equal encounter, this criteria can suddenly become applicable
male versus female: the courts view this as an issue of cultural predispositioning, and of the average size and upper body strength of men versus women. The specifics of the size of the man versus that of the woman are not typically relevant (if Woody Allen attacks a 200 pound female weight lifter, the female can use deadly force against him). Every state in the US views lethal force as a legitimate defense against rape.
A digression: Per Department of Justice statistics, in the average year, 79% of the attackers in successful rapes are unarmed. With 14% of successful rapes, the attackers are armed only with contact weapons (knife, club, rope, etc.). Only in 7% of successful rapes are attackers armed with firearms.
physical size and strength: no clear legal standard for when this disparity exists, more of a case-by-case matter. For the closest thing to a commonly accepted legal standard, see Juste David Myers in the John Peters book Defensive Flashlight Techniques.
The other person is known to you to be a highly trained fighter
<span style="font-weight: bold">Opportunity</span>: capable of immediately employing the power to kill or cripple. Two components: distance and obstacles. Range typically not a factor with guns, but is with contact weapons. An unarmed home intruder who attempts to take away your weapon fulfills this criteria, even before he succeeds in taking your weapon away. Research done by Sgt. Dennis Tueller found that the average person can close 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. That is, an attacker armed with a knife who is seven yards away can be literally at your throat before you can draw and fire two rounds.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Jeopardy</span>: acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude he intended to kill or cripple." </span>
If you are comfortable with trying out your state's laws by shooting somebody in the back as they are fleeing, then have at it. What little I know will probably keep me out of jail
I'm done so this can get back on topic.
Re: 5.56 HomeDefense Ammo Suggestions
Do you think what Ayoob teaches may be slightly affected by the advice of his lawyer regarding civil liability?
Speaking from a strictly criminal standpoint and applying Tennessee v. Garner. Every state law I have researched (which isn't that many) allows for citizens to apply deadly force in order to prevent the escape of an armed and violent felon. Just because he isn't attacking you anymore doesn't mean he isn't going to go around the corner, shoot a mother of three in the face and hop in her minivan to continue his escape. It's happened before. It will happen again. Tennessee v. Garner applies specifically to Law Enforcement, however most states I am aware of allow for citizens to arrest a person committing a felony in their presence.
YOU have to decide what is JUSTIFIABLE for you. I know how to justify my actions. I know what courts have found reasonable in my jurisdiction and in SCOTUS rulings. I also get to fall back on my LE background because folks expect a different level of restraint and force from LE.
Finally, seeking legal advice from a message board is below stupidity. Consult an attorney who has sued and defended personal injury cases and consult a deputy prosecutor on your State's lethal force statutes. It may cost you some money up front, but it could save your life in the long run.
Do you think what Ayoob teaches may be slightly affected by the advice of his lawyer regarding civil liability?
Speaking from a strictly criminal standpoint and applying Tennessee v. Garner. Every state law I have researched (which isn't that many) allows for citizens to apply deadly force in order to prevent the escape of an armed and violent felon. Just because he isn't attacking you anymore doesn't mean he isn't going to go around the corner, shoot a mother of three in the face and hop in her minivan to continue his escape. It's happened before. It will happen again. Tennessee v. Garner applies specifically to Law Enforcement, however most states I am aware of allow for citizens to arrest a person committing a felony in their presence.
YOU have to decide what is JUSTIFIABLE for you. I know how to justify my actions. I know what courts have found reasonable in my jurisdiction and in SCOTUS rulings. I also get to fall back on my LE background because folks expect a different level of restraint and force from LE.
Finally, seeking legal advice from a message board is below stupidity. Consult an attorney who has sued and defended personal injury cases and consult a deputy prosecutor on your State's lethal force statutes. It may cost you some money up front, but it could save your life in the long run.
