6.5 creedmoor vs .308

[Mackay Sagebrush]

Yep,

Wish he was still posting over at the Fire. Unfortunately there are a bunch a guys there that hunt more with their computers than they ever will in reality and I think he got tired of a lot of the same kind of bs.

 

[mlumbo]

Question to TTR, If I am correct.
In the direction you gave to the young 13 year old, lets say I am a very much older 13 year old and would like to get into shooting rifles.
Your advise is to go with the 308 and a good scope per say.
The gun shop up the street has a few 308's in what I recall were called Rem Tactical in 20" bbl's.
Would a rifle of such, in your advise, be the place to start?

 

[dtibbals]

had 308 run 6.5CM now and see no reason to go back! Ran my 6.5 in a 4 day class with a buddy running a 308, both high end rifles both can shoot .25" groups but past 400 yards there started to be a huge difference in wind calls and the advantage was 6.5 all day long! Also shooting out past 1200 it was awesome I was only at about 10.3 mils as compared to a 308 was into his second turn. I have zero regrets and all my equipment is working perfectly together.

 

[John1911.com]

Question to TTR, If I am correct.
In the direction you gave to the young 13 year old, lets say I am a very much older 13 year old and would like to get into shooting rifles.
Your advise is to go with the 308 and a good scope per say.
The gun shop up the street has a few 308's in what I recall were called Rem Tactical in 20" bbl's.
Would a rifle of such, in your advise, be the place to start?

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. It's X-mas and we are slammed. And Frankly…..I kinda forgot about this thread.

My advise is to not get too deep in the "arms-race" in the beginning. Especially if money is a concern (It rarely isn't).

Would I suggest a 308 for a 13 year old? Dunno. I have to know the 13 year old. I think a 223 would be just as fine too. What I wouldn't do is have that person shooting calibers that are hard to come by, hard to get factory loads for, and hard on the shooter.

It is quite possible a 308 on a 13 year old could be hard on that shooter. Again…not enough information.

But……big but…..run the gun you brung. Or what life gives you. If you have a smoking deal on a 308….don't pass that up to spend more money on a 223 "tactical" thingy later.

At 100 yards, there is nothing you can do with a 308 that can't be done with a 223. And I know 100 yards isn't sexy.

But 100 yards gets that 13 year old into all the fundamentals. Position shooting. Accuracy testing. Ballastic's testing.

I would rather a 13 year old put 500 rounds through a 223 bolt gun, 1 round at a time. Than 500 rounds through an automatic in a day.

Give me more info and let's see where this goes.

Have you looked at 308 ammo costs vs 223. Does that change your selections? If you can swing the 308, but can't afford to shoot it, pass.

You can take a 223 quite a bit out before having a different caliber comes into play. Especially when teaching a 13 year old how to be a rifleman.

Ultimately, what I am saying is: Getting trigger time on a firearm is more important than owning that firearm.

If we are talking about getting into shooting, right? Not just buying crap, correct?

Regards,
TTR

 

[mr_ballistics]

Trying decide what is best for overall long range/tactical/target shooting posts pics of your 6.5 if you can

Pictures should not be persuasive if you are actually selecting a caliber on the merits. And given you already have a 243 I suggest you simply stick with it, as it is superior to the 6.5 Creedmoor to 1000 yards in almost every performance metric when using appropriate hand loads, or preloaded ammo if you can find it. It's suprising to see everyone ignoring the other cartridge in the 308 family, the 243 Winchester. Using the Berger Match Hunting VLD bullets in both 6.5 and 243, the latter is superior in velocity, drop, time to target, and lead, while trailing slightly in drift and impact energy. And it kicks a little lighter than the 6.5 to boot. It is plenty capable of killing any game which you may point it at, and could last your entire life without needing to upgrade, unless you plan to hunt elk at 700+ yards, or bigger/dangerous game. Here is a video of a teenage girl killing a cow elk at 700 yards with her Greybull Precision 243, with an expert instructor, shooting the slightly smaller 105gr Berger VLD:

Kasandra Cow elk 688yds.mp4 - YouTube

This table demonstrates the superiority of the 243. It is not dramaticaly superior, but superior nonetheless.
Sources: Accurate Powder reloading table, Jul 7, 2013 edition, using SAAMI max loads, JBM Ballistics. 24" BBL. 250 yard zero and 250yd interval to keep graph size manageable.

6.5 Creedmoor 	140gr Berger VLD	G1 BC .612	45.3gr Ramshot Hunter	2779 fps MV

Range	Drop	Drop	Windage	Windage	Velocity Mach	Energy	Time	Lead	Lead
(yd)	(in)	(MOA)	(in)	(MOA)	(ft/s)	(none)	(ft•lbs)	(s)	(in)	(MOA)
0 	-1.5 	*** 	0.0 	*** 	2779.0 	2.489 	2400.3 	0.000 	0.0 	***
250 	-0.0 	-0.0 	3.4 	1.3 	2416.9 	2.165 	1815.6 	0.289 	50.9 	19.5
500 	-36.0 	-6.9 	14.8 	2.8 	2083.2 	1.866 	1348.9 	0.624 	109.8 	21.0
750 	-122.5 	-15.6 	35.9 	4.6 	1776.6 	1.591 	981.0 	1.014 	178.4 	22.7
1000 	-278.7 	-26.6 	69.5 	6.6 	1492.0 	1.336 	691.9 	1.474 	259.5 	24.8

243 Winchester 	115gr Berger VLD	G1 BC .545	49.3gr Ramshot Magnum	2962 fps MV

Range	Drop	Drop	Windage	Windage	Velocity Mach	Energy	Time	Lead	Lead
(yd)	(in)	(MOA)	(in)	(MOA)	(ft/s)	(none)	(ft•lbs)	(s)	(in)	(MOA)
0 	-1.5 	*** 	0.0 	*** 	2962.0 	2.653 	2239.9 	0.000 	0.0 	***
250 	-0.0 	-0.0 	3.5 	1.3 	2543.5 	2.278 	1651.6 	0.273 	48.1 	18.4
500 	-32.4 	-6.2 	15.3 	2.9 	2159.4 	1.934 	1190.5 	0.593 	104.4 	19.9
750 	-112.0 	-14.3 	37.5 	4.8 	1810.5 	1.622 	836.9 	0.973 	171.2 	21.8
1000 	-258.7 	-24.7 	73.3 	7.0 	1489.9 	1.335 	566.8 	1.429 	251.6 	24.0

If you simply want a new rifle to have a new rifle, buy another high qality 243 and pay someone you trust to build these hand loads for you. It will outperform the 6.5, and you can use your ammunition in both rifles, reducing ammo cost.

 

[RockheadGT]

You go Salmon!

I'm not buying a full tac ops rifle, I'm buying a .308 sps tactical then mike said he would true it, bed it, and everything else he does to a tac ops except finish and molded grips, but I have to send him the rifle, a krieger barrel, and a stock and he will be putting it together (so I'm buying all the parts).

Also it'll be a year and a half before I have the cash (in that year in a half ill have graduation, 2 bays, this years bday will be in december plus next december, and 2 Christmas, plus allowance, so lots a cash coming in

Salmon,
I hope your cash savings are going well towards your purchase. Good luck. Don't let any of these old timers talk down to you because of your age. You'll be shooting circles around them before they know it.

RockheadGT

 

[RockheadGT]

Reference materials for long range shooting solutions.

Do any of you know any books or websites that teach formulas for wind and elev and all the things you need to know bout long range shooting (how to make formulas, how to make a dope, etc)

Salmon,
Go on YouTube and search Sniper 101 Part 1, 2, 3, 4, ..... up to 85 as of now. Really outstanding series of videos and cost me my Christmas vacation, couldn't stop watching. The shortest shot this guy makes is 790 meters and the longest is over a mile, which he does twice, in a 22 mph wind. The second shot is 2" from the bull. Luck, not a chance. He hit a Cours Light beer can at 1.13 kilometers (the issue I have with that shot is the can was full, very bad form to shoot full beer cans.)

RockheadGT

 

[RockheadGT]

Salmon, Before youbuy that long range scope.

A scope with a Mil recticle and .1 Mil turrets will make this quest much more attianable. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get a scope that will work for you. There are pleny that are around or less than $500 that will work. In fact the optics for sale section is a fine place to look for a scope. Here's the short version of how to put all this together, if you were using your .308.

Find ammo the rifle shoots well. If you can't shoot it well, find someone that can.
Get the muzzle velocity of the projectile leaving the barrel, at least five shots, average them to one muzzle velocity.
Get the ballistic coefficient for the bullet. They are available all over the place. Sierra, Hornady, even Midway USA has the ballistic coefficients listed.
The MV (muzzle velocity) and BC (ballistic coefficient) are the two key numbers to plug into a ballistic calculator.
JBM is free and it is a very good calculator that provides very solid data. It will give you your trajectory in the Mils that your recticle and turrets speak in.
Read this website about how to "drive the rifle" as so many call it. Every facet that is mentioned is absolutely correct. Read "The Fundamentals of Marksmanship" over, and over until you have it memorized. It can be found in the Advanced Marksmaship unit. Which is one place you need to spend lots of time before you shoot a single round.

Salmon,
Before you buy that long range scope go to YouTube, search "Sniper 101 Part 14" and watch Parts 14 through 22. SWFA makes one for a reasonable price.

RockheadGT

 

[Sako man]

If you shoot a lot then 308 is nice as there is plenty of available ammo. If you don't mind spending a little more or reloading then 6.5 is the beezz kneeesss. Overall 6.5 is more accurate.