6.5 creedmoor vs .308

[Graham]

Is there any way that you can have a civilized conversation on a forum with somebody?...

Somebody?! I am one of the few who have had a civilized conversation here with NOBODY [Larry]. LOL!

Is your definition of 'civilized' as skewed as your definition of the 6.8SPC? Because the fact that you may not like what I am saying doesn't make the conversation less civilized.

The 6.5 may very well out perform it. I am not hedging anything either, just trying to make myself clear, seeing as you *assumed* that I thought the 6.8 was better in every way. They are very close to say the least.

So, according to you, what you are doing is making your position clearer, and not hedging, when you state "may very well" and "very close to say the least".
Got it.

And that I incorrectly assumed that you think the 6.8 is better than the Grendel because I misunderstood all of your posts that argued in favor of precisely that conclusion? Hmmm.... So when you said this:

The 6.8 WILL out perform the grendel, not the creedmoor. And I'm using the Berger 130 match classic which has a higher bc, just under .5 I think.

What you really meant was that the 6.8 will only outperform the Grendel under one set of very specific circumstances in which you pick the bullets used for comparison and the velocity of the Grendel is kept lower than that of the 6.8.

I get it:

In actual fact you were posting very good, reliable information the whole time and the problem was created when everyone else reading what you wrote simply misunderstood what you were saying.

Got it.

 

[Redmanss]

Has anyone figured out why so many hate "vs." threads yet?

 

[Surgikill]

Somebody?! I am one of the few who have had a civilized conversation here with NOBODY [Larry]. LOL!

Is your definition of 'civilized' as skewed as your definition of the 6.8SPC? Because the fact that you may not like what I am saying doesn't make the conversation less civilized.

So, according to you, what you are doing is making your position clearer, and not hedging, when you state "may very well" and "very close to say the least".
Got it.

And that I incorrectly assumed that you think the 6.8 is better than the Grendel because I misunderstood all of your posts that argued in favor of precisely that conclusion? Hmmm.... So when you said this: What you really meant was that the 6.8 will only outperform the Grendel under one set of very specific circumstances in which you pick the bullets used for comparison and the velocity of the Grendel is kept lower than that of the 6.8.

I get it:

In actual fact you were posting very good, reliable information the whole time and the problem was created when everyone else reading what you wrote simply misunderstood what you were saying.

Got it.

So you still haven't given me velocities and bc numbers for a grendel? Do you even own one? I think you may not like what I'm saying. I'm the only person that has posted empirical data supporting my statement. You have backed it up with hot air. You think I hate the 6.5 bullet, I don't, I own a 260, you just need barrel length.

Sent from GS3 Synergy

 

[tylerw02]

Killing what? For killing bad guys, yeah, the 6.5 might be better, but either is more than enough. You don't need much penetration for humans. For deer? Either will do just fine. But for large animals like elk, it requires heavy bullets to make clean kills, because you need the penetration of heavy bullets. I'm sure that any of us could kill an elk with a 6.5. I'll bet that I could also kill one with a .223 (especially if it were at close range), but that elk would probably suffer, and it would probably take multiple shots to put it down if aiming for the vitals (one well-placed shot behind the ear might be quick). But just because it can be done doesn't make it ethical. A hunter has a responsibility to use the proper tool (and be skilled with it) to lessen the chances of wounding the animal. And no responsible hunter would argue that the lighter 6.5 bullets are better for elk than a heavier .308 bullet. It's foolhardy to suggest otherwise. "Better" is the key word there, not "can it be done?". Go to a hunting board and ask that question....it's not even a debate.

Bullet weight doesn't kill. ENERGY kills. It is perfectly ethical to kill with the 6.5mm. As a matter of fact, I've killed several animals with 6.5s and they drop much faster with my 6.5mms and 7mms than the .30s. Why? They have more energy; the bullet stays in its velocity window for a longer distance than it does with a .30.

I'm a completely responsible hunter and it is in poor taste for you to say otherwise. Quite frankly, you're ignorant and I pity your ability to act smug while maintaining such a lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

[garandman]

Has anyone figured out why so many hate "vs." threads yet?

Ooooh, oooh, oooh....I know.... cuz INVARIABLY somebody latches on who can be told nothing, who will not change their mind, and will not change the subject.... no matter how much bad info they spout.... they cannot admit they were wrong, and must cause EVERYONE to knuckle under to their opinion.

 

[Surgikill]

Ooooh, oooh, oooh....I know.... cuz INVARIABLY somebody latches on who can be told nothing, who will not change their mind, and will not change the subject.... no matter how much bad info they spout.... they cannot admit they were wrong, and must cause EVERYONE to knuckle under to their opinion.

You're making a very good case for yourself.

Sent from GS3 Synergy

 

[garandman]

Snagged one....

Dude, I punched outta this urination match long ago. You, on the other hand, have made it your personal manifesto.... go mow the lawn or something, bro. DO something productive.

 

[KYS]

So you still haven't given me velocities and bc numbers for a grendel?

Sent from GS3 Synergy

start here:
http://www.alexanderarms.com/images/pdfs/grendel_ballistics.pdf

They show numbers for the 90gr TNT Speer but at one point they did make a heavier projectile. I shoot both currently. As well as some hand loads tailored to the gun.
Hornady also offers some nice BTHP ammo for the Grendel.

 

[Surgikill]

Snagged one....

Dude, I punched outta this urination match long ago. You, on the other hand, have made it your personal manifesto.... go mow the lawn or something, bro. DO something productive.

Funny I just finished mowing the lawn.

Didn't you know they should stop production of all other bullets and only manufacture 6.5?

Sent from GS3 Synergy

 

[garandman]

Didn't you know they should stop production of all other bullets and only manufacture 6.5?

Sent from GS3 Synergy

Quite wrong.

All of the 6.5 guys I've read say 6.0 / 6.5 its pretty much a push.

A few of the 6.0 guys have made a religion out of the caliber....along with internet jihads, faith to the exclusion of reason, etc.

 

[biner626]

I wonder if we could stick to the original thread.

 

[Surgikill]

I wonder if we could stick to the original thread.

90% of the people are going to to tell salmon to go with a round that pushes a 6.5 mm pill and then he's going to be left with a nice wall ornament while he waits for the cash to afford reloading equipment.

Sent from GS3 Synergy

 

[Regalkismet]

I was getting 2400 out of a 20" barrel with the 6.8. Last time I checked I didn't know 6.5 cm was able to be pushed that fast from that short a barrel.

Also, buy Winchester 7mm 08 brass and neck down for 260.

Sent from GS3 Synergy

I think you may have yourself confused.... They are talking about the 6.5 creedmoor not the 6.5 grendel..... The 6.8 spc II can get over 2700 fps with 110/115 gr pill and is often debated in regards to the 6.5 Grendel.... 6.8 spc. II is the better performer 400 yds and under.... Especially under 350 while the Grendel out shines the 6.8 spc II beyond 400 yds due to better BC pills. That being said the 6.8 has better hunting rounds and more readily available good manufactured ammunition even available at Walmart so reloading isn't a necessity. I think many people aren't aware of the 6.8's revised spc II chamber and incorrectly compare the old 6.8 chamberings velocities/energy to the grendel and not the spc II. And 6.8 is getting some better BC bullets like the 140 gr berger.....

 

[Regalkismet]

You are WAY OFF BASE here. Stop guessing.

I run a 12.5" 6.5 Grendel (SBR) and get over 2550 fps on AA 120gr TNT ammo. The 6.8 never took off like they claimed because of its lack of performance past 300 yards. The Grendel performs at almost any range, even CQB, which it was not developed for.

I don't think I would say the 6.8 never took off.... The 6.8 ammo is stocked at Walmart now.... I wish the 6.5 grendel was too but it's not... Fact is they are both popular and both have different niches . in fact there a couple countries switching to the 6.8 and lwrc has some of those military contracts. Actually I think the 6.8 is probably more popular in the mainstream public/hunters while the 6.5 grendel is more popular with long range shooters which would also explain why Walmart carries it. Also the 6.8 spc II performs very well past 300 yds.... The grendel begins edging it out past 400 yds

 

[Graham]

there are several countries switching to the 6.8 and lwrc has some of those military contracts.

Which countries are switching to 6.8? Which contracts are those?

 

[Regalkismet]

Which countries are switching to 6.8? Which contracts are those?

I'll try to look it up... Lwrc has them. It's been posted on the hide before in the semi auto threads. It's the main reason lwrc is coming out with their new six8 which Magpul is making magazines exclusively for. It has a proprietary lower with a larger magwell....which may allow the 6.8 to be loaded for a longer OAL.... But that's speculation. Or are you just doubting other countries are using the 6.8?

 

[Regalkismet]

Jordan is one...and I know there is atleast one more... While it's not like US contracts it's pretty good for the 6.8.

 

[KYS]

I don't think I would say the 6.8 never took off.... The 6.8 ammo is stocked at Walmart now.... I wish the 6.5 grendel was too but it's not... Fact is they are both popular and both have different niches . in fact there a couple countries switching to the 6.8 and lwrc has some of those military contracts. Actually I think the 6.8 is probably more popular in the mainstream public/hunters while the 6.5 grendel is more popular with long range shooters which would also explain why Walmart carries it.

No one of significant military worth is switching to the 6.8

It never made it in the US military trials. It could not perform for what they wanted it to. Something that could stay in an AR15 sized package but deliver AK type ballistics.
So in theory it did not "take off" like 300 blackout did. It's only slightly popular with recreational shooters.

 

[Downzero]

300 black is a gimmick too, perhaps even more so than 6.8. For subsonic use, of course it has its advantages. But the capacity is simply not there for the bullet diameter for longer range.

I wish the big manufacturers would make and push 20 Practical and a 6mm based on the 7.62x39 cartridge (there are several wildcat examples). Both far excel at the job that 5.56 sought to do.

 

[Regalkismet]

No one of significant military worth is switching to the 6.8

It never made it in the US military trials. It could not perform for what they wanted it to. Something that could stay in an AR15 sized package but deliver AK type ballistics.
So in theory it did not "take off" like 300 blackout did. It's only slightly popular with recreational shooters.

I'm not here to change your mind but I'm pretty sure Walmart doesn't stock their shelves with new ammo just for kicks.... They research the market for said product before they add new products so I'm pretty confident it took off.... And not just for that reason...also the military testing that I'm aware of was done with the original 6.8 chambering which doesn't represent the current 6.8 spc II..... In addition with the new lwrc six8 enlarged magwell you will most likely see even higher velocities attainable being able to load OAL longer and surely better BC pills being produced for the 6.8... However I can tell by the tone of your post that you simply want to degrade the caliber and time will tell.... Not what either of us think. No one caliber is the best at everything.... Everything is a trade off.... That's why I own more than one rifle.... If I'm gonna shoot long range I'm Gonna use a 260 or 6.5cm not a 6.8 or a 6.5g.....

 

[KYS]

I'm not here to change your mind but I'm pretty sure Walmart doesn't stock their shelves with new ammo just for kicks.... They research before they add new products so I'm pretty confident it took off.... And not just for that reason... However I can tell by the tone of your post that you simply want to degrade the caliber and time will tell.... Not what either of us think.

You are basing your research of the caliber on what Wal Mart stocks? Enough said right there on that issue.....

Im not saying the caliber is bad, Im saying its very limited and requires specific gear to make it work. I have a 14.5" 6.8 from Noveske and I don't shoot it outside of close quarters pig hunting.

 

[Regalkismet]

You are basing your research of the caliber on what Wal Mart stocks? Enough said right there on that issue.....

Im not saying the caliber is bad, Im saying its very limited and requires specific gear to make it work. I have a 14.5" 6.8 from Noveske and I don't shoot it outside of close quarters pig hunting.

Are you serious? I based nothing on Walmart..... It's called an example.... I've made many other points besides that.... However it points to a mainstream acceptance of the round....I'm unclear about what gear the 6.8 needs that the Grendel does not.... Bolt, mags, barrel... Same difference. .. And the grendel can break bolts... Or is more apt to... I have to say I'm glad I usually post in the semi auto threads as the tone here certainly isn't conducive to friendly conversation and no I'm not new my post count got wiped.... I'm checking out of this ridiculousness.

 

[KYS]

Are you serious? I based nothing on Walmart..... It's called an example.... I've made many other points besides that.... However it points to a mainstream acceptance of the round....I'm unclear about what gear the 6.8 needs that the Grendel does not.... Bolt, mags, barrel... Same difference. .. And the grendel can break bolts... Or is more apt to... I have to say I'm glad I usually post in the semi auto threads as the tone here certainly isn't conducive to friendly conversation and no I'm not new my post count got wiped.... I'm checking out of this ridiculousness.

What does post count have to do with this conversation? I thought we were all debating cartridges here.... let's not get all upset.

 

[Botbasher]

What kind of optics do you have? There are plenty of off the shelf rifles that will shoot 1 MOA or better now days. The trick to the whole thing is the optics. You WILL NOT get any long range shooting accomplished without the right optics.

So start with the best optics out there... the ole MKI Eyeball!

Best thing I ever did to start shooting long distance was learn on iron sights. That got me into M1 Garands and shooting those accurately out to 500y! Something very satisfying about hearing the gongs ring at those distances using iron sights. After that experience, using scoped rifles actually felt like cheating! The same guys that taught me competed in the Woodys DMM with a old iron sight, bolt action Enfield and made a dam fine showing out of it!! The 600y targets were a bit of an issue for him, but he scored WAY higher than me over all and I had a scoped 700! He knows his rifle and how to use it effectively.. and he practices regularly!!

Everyone's advise to learn your current rifles first before wasting time and money is spot on! You said you had no youth matches near you?? What have you tried?? There are many youth oriented org's... you just have to look a little! Try these...

Appleseed - appleseedinfo.org - Great group of people supporting history and marksmanship. Teach you great skill sets that will translate into lifetime shooting skills, and you get to learn a lot you'll never get to hear while in school. Heck, a weekend here and my 13yo was impressing his history teachers!! Grab a .22LR and go visit them.. they have events in MO!

CMP - odcmp.org - Their club and competition tracker showed about a dozen comps in your state. If you like long range stuff too, they sell great M1 Garands (bought 3 so far!) cheap and then your in the high power shooting realms. Camp Perry is just a little drive from you!

4H Club - The 4H Clubs usually are connected to the local High Schools for shooting since the schools can't handle the liability. Find your local 4H Office and ask them to point you in the right direction. There were 14 different shooting programs in the local school system I found after looking them up!

Any tactical shooting comp - My son and I just found these in our area and we are in love. We've attended one, watched another and continue to learn about ways to improve. We also found a local .22LR tactical comp that gives you all the learning and skills, but at a fraction of the price! You want to hone your wind and drop skills, shoot a .22LR out to 300y and still hit 1 MOA or less!

I can tell you from direct experience... you cannot buy skill. I thought I could and I was wrong. You must learn it and the more you challenge yourself in the beginning, the easier it is to evolve later on. I have a nice R700 .308 with a scope and all the whistles, but I still love shooting the M1 because it proves I know what I am doing when I pull the trigger and hit that 500y target. My son also likes using iron sights.. asks me regularly to pull out the rifles with it on them to play with! It makes me proud that he embraces them and likes to use them as much as his Savage 12 LRP.

Learn the skills and save your pennies for tools that will serve you better in the long run. How do you hit those 1000y targets? Same way you get to Carnegie Hall... Practice, Practice... Practice. Anyone can buy a Stradivarius Violin... but you still have to learn how to play it properly!

Good Luck in what ever path you choose!

KS

P.S. I'd start with the .308 simply because the resources and variety are there no matter where you go. If your starting out, the 6.5C might be a bit of a handicap, since your local resources might be a bit sparse. Find a local group and let them guide you until you gain the wisdom to make these bigger choices on your informed self decisions!

 

[Kreeper]

6.5 all day over .308.. Anyone looking for .308 Projectiles?

 

[Graham]

6.5 all day over .308.. Anyone looking for .308 Projectiles?

That's a meaningless post followed by an attempt to sell something. Kindly stop using other people's threads to sell things.

 

[dbateman]

Hmm this got heated.

For me it's 308 hands down I have good barrel life I can always find ammo and components for it them.

They can reach out to 1000yds easily they throw a good projectile for when I am hunting.

And pretty much the humble old 308 just floats my boat.

I have not tried the 6.5 creedmoor so I really don't know how it compares with the 308 but I have no inclination to change rounds anytime soon.

Pic what you like and go shoot the shit out of it.

 

[dieselgeek]

I bet if people spent as much time training as they did debating caliber choices they would shoot pretty well. Do you guys even shoot bro?

 

[garandman]

What is this "pushing a pill?"

I get half MoA groups shooting the 6.5CM round. I also get half MoA with the 308 round. Its just that the 308 starts dropping fast after 4-500 y.

"Pushing a pill" sounds like illegal drug activity, to me.

 

[tylerw02]

I'm not here to change your mind but I'm pretty sure Walmart doesn't stock their shelves with new ammo just for kicks.... They research the market for said product before they add new products so I'm pretty confident it took off.... And not just for that reason... However I can tell by the tone of your post that you simply want to degrade the caliber and time will tell.... Not what either of us think.

Wow....all that market research must be why my local walmart has .44 Auto Mag on the shelves.

 

[psinclair]

No, because he said "better in every aspect", and killing large animals is an "aspect" of these rifles for many people, and .308 does a better job of killing large animals than the much lighter bullets of the 6.5CM. Either would be fine for deer, but for larger critters like Elk, the .308 is a much better choice than the 6.5. Anyone who would argue against that is obviously not a hunter.

How many elk have you killed?.....must be dozens to have a strong opinion like that.

 

[bogeybrown]

I'm probably off-topic, but by this point I think we have a few going so forgive me. To The Salmon, a number of guys have made the recommendation and I'll repeat it: get a fricken 22LR and shoot it with open sights. Hell, get a BB/Pellet gun with open sights. I grew up in New Orleans so "real" shooting with any regularity was tough, but I could shoot a BB gun in the backyard without fear of arrest.
Learn the FUNDAMENTALS of building a stable position, sight picture, sight alignment, breath control, trigger control, follow through and SHOOT. Challenge yourself with the smallest, most ridiculous targets you can find. NONE of the good habits you learn from the fundamentals will hurt you later on. I would't even THINK about wind until I could hit crazy-small targets.
You're in an amazing position in that you have guys with HUNDREDS of years of combined experience weighing in on your questions. Some of these guys are masters at their areas of expertise. I have learned a TON just listening to these guys disagree.
I'm relatively new to scoped long-range shooting, but I can tell you that by the time I ever laid down behind a scoped rifle with the goal of shooting a 308 (accurately) as far as possible (farthest I've been successful is a little over 1200yds), I KNEW the fundamentals. I knew them like blinking and breathing. By the time I started computing and calculating wind, spin drift, BCs, MV, etc, that was really ALL the conscious thought going on, I knew that what I was doing behind the rifle was as proper as I was capable of.
I wouldn't recommend getting too wrapped up on the issues that THESE guys with their knowledge STILL strive to master, before you are truly comfortable behind a rifle.

Don't ever think a 22 is a "beginners" gun, there is a LOT to be gained throughout your shooting life by going back to basics. A number of guys I knew on the Marine Corps Rifle Team (I was NOT a member, they taught a portion of the Primary Marksmanship Instructor Course) competed in their spare time in 22LR matches to stay sharp. A guy who works with me overseas who was a Marine Scout Sniper and I were talking the other night about the best times shooting we've probably had in our lives were the days with our dads in the woods shooting super-diffucult targets with 22s. We both spend stupid money on nice rifles, and are both buying new 22s to maintain fundamentals.

On the original topic, I checked out this thread because I REALLY want a GAP and was debating on caliber choice. After reading and heeding some of the great advice here, I think I'm going to keep plugging with my current .308 and stick with it until I can honestly tell myself that I can't shoot any better until I have a better performing round.
Thanks gents, as much money as this site COSTS me, the sage advice also SAVES me quite a bit as well.
(now I just need to keep telling myself: "you don't need a GAP, you don't need a GAP,......" and you guys see how well I hold up in the "for sale section")

 

[bogeybrown]

On the original topic, I checked out this thread because I REALLY want a GAP and was debating on caliber choice. After reading and heeding some of the great advice here, I think I'm going to keep plugging with my current .308 and stick with it until I can honestly tell myself that I can't shoot any better until I have a better performing round.
Thanks gents, as much money as this site COSTS me, the sage advice also SAVES me quite a bit as well.
(now I just need to keep telling myself: "you don't need a GAP, you don't need a GAP,......" and you guys see how well I hold up in the "for sale section")[/QUOTE]




AND.............................. I am a complete fricken hypocrite. Salmon, I think my advice on mastering the fundamentals is valid, but I've just become another other of those sanctimonious douchebag "adults" with "do as I say, not as I do" advice. I made it about 12 hours after posting the above before I just couldn't live without this rifle:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/firearms-sale/202427-gap-surgeon-xlr-uso-f-s.html

My current custom .308 is AWESOME, I could go a LONG time before I ever felt like I was better than my rifle, if ever, but I bought a damn GAP/Surgeon anyway. I suppose that makes me guilty of "gear queer-dom", something I've never considered myself guilty of, but my actions speak. I"m sorry kid, I suck. And I've basically worked the last few months for free just to pay for all the shiny things I have found on this forum (and a certain online gun auction site). If there's a bright side, I'd have been eating Ramen noodles here in Afgh anyway.
If that rifle weren't SO DAMN SWEET I might even regret my hypocrisy, but I just can't do it. That thing gives me a chub.

 

[cjgemm]

Now you guys went and did it...

WHY do 6.5 grendel users bash on us?

 

[RobertB]

90% of the people are going to to tell salmon to go with a round that pushes a 6.5 mm pill and then he's going to be left with a nice wall ornament while he waits for the cash to afford reloading equipment.

Sent from GS3 Synergy

Well, myself. I shoot a .308, a .260, and a 6.5 Creedmoor as well as several other rounds but those 3 get shot the most.
I reload for all but I also buy ammo for all. I have 6k rounds of CM ammo stocked up and 8K rounds of 308 ammo to shoot so I don't think that just because you shoot a 6.5 you have to reload. I can shoot my 6.5 CM cheaper than I can my 308 with store bought ammo. And it's just as accurate with better ballistics. Isn't that why the Creedmoor was invented anyway?

 

[BoilerUP]

Now you guys went and did it...

WHY do 6.5 grendel users bash on us?

That's a lotta butthurt right there.

 

[bogeybrown]

That's a lotta butthurt right there.

THIS!

Nicely said, and I think you even remained "civil".

 

[tylerw02]

LOL at the guy saying they put brass catchers on SCARs in 6.8 so nobody would know they were using 6.8s........

 

[Downzero]

Now you guys went and did it...

WHY do 6.5 grendel users bash on us?

If it was my forum, I would ban him from this one.

I think the ban hammer should be used extremely lightly, but someone like this does not belong among us. Board wars are no good for anyone.

6.8 has basically no redeeming value when compared to 6.5 grendel, except perhaps bullet choices, of which there are many more available in the 6.5 diameter.

And if you don't load your own, I'm sorry, but you're just not a rifleman of any kind. No rifle is anywhere near its max performance with factory ammo, and even the best of factory ammo still doesn't compare even to a half ass handload, if for no other reason than the time and consistency that comes from loading single stage just cannot be matched by any machine.

It's fine to defend the indefensible, but the 6.8 cartridge is no comparison to the 6.5 grendel. And a 6mm Grendel would be even better.

This is coming from a guy who doesn't own ANY rifles in 6.5, 6.8, or 6mm diameters.

 

[tylerw02]

.300BLK, 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8, and 6.8 II are all basically similar. None of them benefit from the logistics of the 5.56, and all of them are intermediate, not full-power rounds. All have their advantages and disadvantages. None of them are perfect, but to say none are redeeming is silly.

And there are plenty of good riflemen that don't load their own.

 

[bustin]

If it was my forum, I would ban him from this one.

I think the ban hammer should be used extremely lightly, but someone like this does not belong among us. Board wars are no good for anyone.

6.8 has basically no redeeming value when compared to 6.5 grendel, except perhaps bullet choices, of which there are many more available in the 6.5 diameter.

And if you don't load your own, I'm sorry, but you're just not a rifleman of any kind. No rifle is anywhere near its max performance with factory ammo, and even the best of factory ammo still doesn't compare even to a half ass handload, if for no other reason than the time and consistency that comes from loading single stage just cannot be matched by any machine.

It's fine to defend the indefensible, but the 6.8 cartridge is no comparison to the 6.5 grendel. And a 6mm Grendel would be even better.

This is coming from a guy who doesn't own ANY rifles in 6.5, 6.8, or 6mm diameters.

That shows.
Not all people want to shoot long range. Some shoot only 3 gun, or hunt. Some are only interested in CQB defensive weapons.
Would you really want to swing a 24" barrel in a 10x10 room or in thick vegetation ? Every cartridge/rifle has a purpose. The 5th group wanted a carbine with better terminal performance from 0-300yds to replace the M4. The 6.8 does exactly what they designed it to do. One of the largest producers of AR15 barrels for many companies is running 3 shifts drilling holes for AR15 barrels. They are running 5.56 and 6.8 barrels non stop. They do not want to stop the machines and retool to drill 6.5 or 308 barrels. I've been waiting 10 months for 6.5 barrels, 8 months for 308s but the 5.56s and 6.8s come in like normal every other week. It seems the 6.8 is a hog killing machine, There's thousands of people from Texas to Florida buying them.
There were 6PPCs about 40 years before there was a Grendel, the Grendel is a 6.5/6mmPPC AI or 6.5/220 Russian AI. There were several people wildcatting the 6PPC and 220 Russian long before there was a Grendel. Whitley tried to make the 6mmAR a little more mainstream after the Grendel came out.
I know this is the bolt gun forum, even though I sell a ton of 6.8s I just don't see much use for it in a bolt gun unless it's for young teenagers that are recoil sensitive and the same thing goes for the Grendel.

 

[Downzero]

That shows.
Not all people want to shoot long range. Some shoot only 3 gun, or hunt. Some are only interested in CQB defensive weapons.
Would you really want to swing a 24" barrel in a 10x10 room or in thick vegetation ? Every cartridge/rifle has a purpose. The 5th group wanted a carbine with better terminal performance from 0-300yds to replace the M4. The 6.8 does exactly what they designed it to do. One of the largest producers of AR15 barrels for many companies is running 3 shifts drilling holes for AR15 barrels. They are running 5.56 and 6.8 barrels non stop. They do not want to stop the machines and retool to drill 6.5 or 308 barrels. I've been waiting 10 months for 6.5 barrels, 8 months for 308s but the 5.56s and 6.8s come in like normal every other week. It seems the 6.8 is a hog killing machine, There's thousands of people from Texas to Florida buying them.
There were 6PPCs about 40 years before there was a Grendel, the Grendel is a 6.5/6mmPPC AI or 6.5/220 Russian AI. There were several people wildcatting the 6PPC and 220 Russian long before there was a Grendel. Whitley tried to make the 6mmAR a little more mainstream after the Grendel came out.
I know this is the bolt gun forum, even though I sell a ton of 6.8s I just don't see much use for it in a bolt gun unless it's for young teenagers that are recoil sensitive and the same thing goes for the Grendel.

The 6.8 would have been a great invention if the bullets were as sleek as those available in 6.5.

Other than that, you simply cannot convince me that the 6.8 has any useful purpose. The two cartridges have basically the same capacity, so the only real advantage can come from the bullets, for which there is a much greater selection in the 6.5 diameter.

That's not to say that the 6.8 is useless, as it has some good bullets available for certain uses. But with the breadth of 6.5 bullets available, it's hard to find anything that the 6.8 does better than 6.5.

To have an objective comparison, the target, range, and load has to be on the table. But for me, looking at the numbers, it's hard for me to understand what usefulness 6.8 has for those of us who can roll our own.

EVERY cartridge is a compromise, but if the purpose is maximizing performance from the AR platform, the 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges have both .30 cal and 6.8 beat in any test in which ballistic performance makes a difference.

And this is true even if the Grendel is cut down, as well. Just because a cartridge shines best with a long barrel, it does NOT follow that it somehow becomes useless with a short one.

I shoot long barrels because I don't have to carry my rifles for a long distance. But if I had to carry it, I'm certain that I could find a cartridge that worked out of a short barrel that I could use.

And I guarantee you that picking a bullet diameter that was oversized for the cartridge capacity that happened to be close to a diameter where really sleek bullets were available wouldn't be my choice.

 

[Ranger822]

The Salmon - for a 13 year-old you are getting some great advice, perhaps more than you really need. I am not sure what your marksmanship skills are but you are problably not much farther along than my son. I think getting a good solid foundation on the basics, with a basic rifle with iron sights and then with a scope would be best. Don't fall victim to prowling these forums when you could be getting some serious range time.

My recommendation is get the rifle in .308, when you are older, plenty of time to learn. Doesn't sound you are going to reload or have the optics. 6.5 Creedmoor, to take advantage of it will involve a lot more. Stick to the basics and spend more time with hands on marksmanship after demonstrating some real skill and knowledge inside 1000m - then look beyond.

 

[cypriss32]

Buy both.......... Leave this fan boy 6.5 Grend VS 6.8 SPC argument alone. Its a pandora's box period.

 

[bustin]

The 6.8 would have been a great invention if the bullets were as sleek as those available in 6.5.

Other than that, you simply cannot convince me that the 6.8 has any useful purpose. The two cartridges have basically the same capacity, so the only real advantage can come from the bullets, for which there is a much greater selection in the 6.5 diameter.

That's not to say that the 6.8 is useless, as it has some good bullets available for certain uses. But with the breadth of 6.5 bullets available, it's hard to find anything that the 6.8 does better than 6.5.

To have an objective comparison, the target, range, and load has to be on the table. But for me, looking at the numbers, it's hard for me to understand what usefulness 6.8 has for those of us who can roll our own.

EVERY cartridge is a compromise, but if the purpose is maximizing performance from the AR platform, the 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges have both .30 cal and 6.8 beat in any test in which ballistic performance makes a difference.

And this is true even if the Grendel is cut down, as well. Just because a cartridge shines best with a long barrel, it does NOT follow that it somehow becomes useless with a short one.

I shoot long barrels because I don't have to carry my rifles for a long distance. But if I had to carry it, I'm certain that I could find a cartridge that worked out of a short barrel that I could use.

And I guarantee you that picking a bullet diameter that was oversized for the cartridge capacity that happened to be close to a diameter where really sleek bullets were available wouldn't be my choice.

Read close here because I don't think you read any of the last one. The 5th group are the ones that developed the 6.8. They weren't looking for a sniper or target rifle. They wanted a 0-300yd rifle to replace the M4. Lawton, Murray and Holland tested 6.5, 6.8 and 7mm bullets. The 7mms produced the best terminal performance in soft tissue and barrier defeating. The 6.8 was second and the 6.5 third. They tested enough to know they could not use a cartridge the size of a PPC/Grendel. Mags bulge and bolts broke. The 7mm and 6.5 bullets were too long. They could have built anything that fit in a AR15. They built what they wanted...it was the 6.8. No one asked for the 6.5 Grendel.
As far as civilians, it seems hog and deer hunters buy more 6.8s than 6.5 so what does that tell you? High BCs don't kill animals as much as you would like to think that is all that matters.

 

[garandman]

My recommendation is get the rifle in .308, when you are older, plenty of time to learn. Doesn't sound you are going to reload or have the optics. 6.5 Creedmoor, to take advantage of it will involve a lot more. .

See, that's just not really true. Hornady factory 140 A-max widely reports about the same results as anyone's handloads. Cost savings and availability are really the main advantages in handloading 6.5CM. And in fact, a lot of people who handload 6.5CM are simply reproducing the factory loads - 140 A-max bullets, with 41.5 gr H4350. (Me included.) From there, "taking advantage of" either rifle's capabilities is pretty much the same.

In fact, I had to handload my 308 rounds to get my DPMS to really shine. Both guns shoot half MoA consistently right now for me, with the 6.5CM occasionally throwing me 0.375 MoA groups.

Sometimes, "get both" just isn't a viable option - even if its gonna be over a period of years. I dearly love my .308. But if I was at a "choose any ONE" decision, I'm going with the 6.5CM.

 

[garandman]

.......... Leave this fan boy 6.5 Grend VS 6.8 SPC argument alone. Its a pandora's box period.

AND its completely off topic and shows the immaturity of those who are engaged in the whizzing match.

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

How many elk have you killed?.....must be dozens to have a strong opinion like that.

That's no joke!

I got a good chuckle out of that one too. Hell, I am betting my mother has taken more elk than "damage". Back in the 70s and 80s I don't recall her ever using anything other than a little old .270. I helped pack out a bunch of those quarters year after year.

But hey, I will go back to reading what some of these "experts" have to say about killing stuff...

 

[Graham]

But hey, I will go back to reading what some of these "experts" have to say about killing stuff...

Few people I know can even approach the level of knowledge on the topic possessed by Psinclair, never mind having logged as much experience doing it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Few people I know can even approach the level of knowledge on the topic possessed by Psinclair, never mind having logged as much experience doing it.

Truth.

And just in case some internet tough guy doubts, Pat often posts photos