Trying decide what is best for overall long range/tactical/target shooting posts pics of your 6.5 if you can
P.S. not a real navy seal
P.S. not a real navy seal
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- Thread starter The salmon
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- .308 6.5 creedmoor
I have both and love both. If you don't have either I would recommend a .308 as I want to always own a .223 and .308. If going with a short bbl rifle then go .308 all the way. If you are going to want a 24" or so then the 6.5 CM will give you a nice ballistic edge over the 308 if shooting the 140's and such. If your staying inside 1000 yds then the 308 is a nice round.
Reloading is something to consider as well. Do you reload? Both are great calibers for you either way.
I don't k now how to post pics so I can't show either one but pics won't be able to show any type difference as they can be built to be identical.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Reloading is something to consider as well. Do you reload? Both are great calibers for you either way.
I don't k now how to post pics so I can't show either one but pics won't be able to show any type difference as they can be built to be identical.
Good luck and keep us posted.
A short barreled 6.5 Creedmoor curb-stomps a similarly barreled 308.
16.5" Creedmoor pushes a 139-142gr bullet @ 2550; compare that with a 16.5" 308 pushing a 175-178 @ 2500...not much of a contest.
Make the barrels 24" or longer, and the 6.5 walks away from 308.
308 match ammo is more widely available, as are components and factory rifles; IMO, those are its only advantages (well, it also makes a .048" larger hole).
16.5" Creedmoor pushes a 139-142gr bullet @ 2550; compare that with a 16.5" 308 pushing a 175-178 @ 2500...not much of a contest.
Make the barrels 24" or longer, and the 6.5 walks away from 308.
308 match ammo is more widely available, as are components and factory rifles; IMO, those are its only advantages (well, it also makes a .048" larger hole).
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I use to shoot 308 but went to 6.5 Creed. Less recoil and better ballistics equals an overall awesome and fun round. Extremely accurate!
Well, I have 20" 6.5 CM& .308 and 26" 6.5 and .308.
My shorter bbl 6.5 CM still shoots much flatter than the 308 but the wind drift is a bit more than the .308 with the 120's and a little bit less with the 140's.
In the longer bbl the 6.5 just smokes it.
I still use my 20" CM more than the 308 but I feel it loses more than a 308. Mine just seem to be neck and neck on wind drift when shortened up.
I have a Remington 700 action waiting to become a 6.5 CM gun, and I'm keeping the barrel as long as possible. I just measured my Pelican case and told the gunsmith to make it fit in that.
I have a 20" MATEN for not-so-long-range shooting (as soon as I get the damn gas system cycling the bolt properly), so I'm not worried about short range shots with the bolt gun.
I have a 20" MATEN for not-so-long-range shooting (as soon as I get the damn gas system cycling the bolt properly), so I'm not worried about short range shots with the bolt gun.
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I had a 16.5" 308 and got 2524fps with 168gr TAP factory amo. If was able to push 168gr Hybrids @ 2600fps from that short barrel, it'd drift 28.9" @ 600yd and 95.4" @ 1000yd in my AO with a 10mph wind. Hide member JFComfort has a 16.5" 6.5 Creedmoor and reports 2574fps with a 139gr Scenar. If I assume 140gr A-Max @ 2550fps, that's 25.9" @ 600yd and 83.3" @ 1000yd. Make a switch to 140gr Hybrids, and that changes to 24.1" @ 600yd and 76.8" @ 1000yd.
Okay, maybe "curb stomp" is a bit strong, but 10%+ advantage in drift isn't insignificant.
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The rifle will have be a 18-20" kreiger so which is better for that barrel length
Also what does bbl stand for
Also what does bbl stand for
Your right about a CM beating it but I should have noted that so far I only shoot factory ammo and mostly the 120 grn in the creedmoor. I'm setup for reloading both cartridges but don't as I got both for having something I didn't have to reload for.
That means I probably wont see all of the ballistic qualities the CM can give.
BUt if I had to choose only one still in a 20"er I would still go CM any day.
It was already said to get a .308 if you do not already own one. I would say the same thing for a .223 bolt as well for volume practice sessions (best thing I've ever done to improve my long range skills).
It is my opinion that in the beginning stage of development of long range shooting one would be wise to choose .308 rather than a high BC wind cheater.
Shooting a .308 with 168 gr match will teach valuable lessons re: wind. I now have 3 different rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor that I shoot past 1,200 yards every week with. But my favorite is still a .308 (that said, my .308 just happens to be an Accuracy International Arctic Warfare which I prefer over my Surgeons). Either way just choose one or both and start shooting. Both will be fun and you will learn with either caliber. If your choice is a .308 you will have more to learn.
Josh
It is my opinion that in the beginning stage of development of long range shooting one would be wise to choose .308 rather than a high BC wind cheater.
Shooting a .308 with 168 gr match will teach valuable lessons re: wind. I now have 3 different rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor that I shoot past 1,200 yards every week with. But my favorite is still a .308 (that said, my .308 just happens to be an Accuracy International Arctic Warfare which I prefer over my Surgeons). Either way just choose one or both and start shooting. Both will be fun and you will learn with either caliber. If your choice is a .308 you will have more to learn.
Josh
Why so short? If you are shooting long range tactical competitions you are tying your own hands from the get go with a short barrel like that especially in a 6.5 caliber. Shooting a .308 in those comps is already putting you behind the curve as well.
Bbl is short for barrel.
I own both. Head to head? 6.5CM gets the nod. Both are equally accurate to 500 yards, where 308 begins dropping like a rock. If you can only own one, 6.5C.
I have to agree. One of the main reasons 18 inch rifles are made is mobility. Example: in and or out of confined spaces, or moving around with it in a pack. Plus if you're using a suppressor the shorter gun is less akward. Otherwise I wouldn't make it less than 24 inches. I have a few rifles, and only 1 has an 18 inch barrel. Like someone already said, I would go .308 for a first rifle. You're doing the right thing by learning about both, and then apply that knowledge to your true needs.
A 20" Creedmoor should be just under or right at 2700fps with factory 140s.
You'll obviously give up drop & drift to a longer barrel with more velocity (which matters in competition) but still, 2675ish with a 140 Amax ain't a ballistic slouch.
You'll obviously give up drop & drift to a longer barrel with more velocity (which matters in competition) but still, 2675ish with a 140 Amax ain't a ballistic slouch.
If ur gona reload 6.5CM is the better choice! If ur buying off the self ammo .308
..The hornady ammo is good/OK (Ive had some dirt pounders at 800yd) dont get me wrong! but the aval. ammo im just not seeing in my local stores as much...
i shoot a 22" barrel and i see 2860-2910 with a 130Berger and a barns LRX
..The hornady ammo is good/OK (Ive had some dirt pounders at 800yd) dont get me wrong! but the aval. ammo im just not seeing in my local stores as much...
i shoot a 22" barrel and i see 2860-2910 with a 130Berger and a barns LRX
The Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor ammo is excellent. I have been shooting it for 5 years in matches and it's never let me down. It's 1/2 MOA if not better in my GAP rifle.
Then you have been lucky! I have only had 1 but thats in the superformance 129gr SST and it was actually shot threw my crono. at 2600ish when the rest were 2800+
Don't get a 6.5 Creedmoor because then there will be less ammo on the shelves!
Of couse th e 6.5 is better in every aspect. One could argue that it doesn't have as much "lethality" but after 500 yards that isn't the case! and up to that point its pretty marginal!
Of couse th e 6.5 is better in every aspect. One could argue that it doesn't have as much "lethality" but after 500 yards that isn't the case! and up to that point its pretty marginal!
Pretty much what I did and why.
M24/M40 contour 26" bbl with a brake is very fun and pleasant to shoot.
I have a 20" Remington 700 SPS Tactical 308, a 24" Rem 700 custom in 308, and a GAP Crusader 27" in 6.5CM. The 6.5CM smokes the 308 in everyway possible as would a 260 or 6XC. Having said that, I know I am a better shooter having shot a 308 all of last year. Shooting a 308 helped in reading wind, getting good behind the rifle and spotting hits, and tuning my reloading skills to get the low single digit SDs that are needed to have consistancy at 1000 - 1200 yards. I have seen too many cases of where a person starting with a wind cheating caliber cannot handle strong winds or long range crosswinds well because these speed demons never push wind reading skills. Comparitively, 308 forces you to read the wind from the end of the barrel all the way to the target.
The nice thing is if you go with 308 now, it will be easy to switch over to a better caliber later. If you want the better shooing rifle now, then get the 6.5 CM.
As a comparison, I shot my 308 and 6.5 CM on the same day, same conditions on Peacemaker's 600 yard range with the electronic scoring system and the 600 yard F-Class target. I shot a 90-2X with the 308 and a 95-4X with the 6.5 CM with the main difference being horizontal dispersion. YMMV
The nice thing is if you go with 308 now, it will be easy to switch over to a better caliber later. If you want the better shooing rifle now, then get the 6.5 CM.
As a comparison, I shot my 308 and 6.5 CM on the same day, same conditions on Peacemaker's 600 yard range with the electronic scoring system and the 600 yard F-Class target. I shot a 90-2X with the 308 and a 95-4X with the 6.5 CM with the main difference being horizontal dispersion. YMMV
I guess the real question is.... are you a good enough/knowledgable shooter to see the benefits? There's a soft spot in my heart for the .308, it's been a work horse for many years and known for its flexibility. I also shoot a .260 rem and as stated, it's ballistically superior to the .308/7.62. If its not windy (which is hardly the case in NE) I have no problem shooting a .308 over my .260 (it's easy to dial elevation).
Barrel life on the .308 is generally better (6-10k) but if you don't shoot that much, this is not an issue. One other major thing to consider, during the entire ammo scare/gun ban, I had a much harder time finding .308 components as opposed to 6.5. When times are good, .308 can be had anywhere (online and local) but if things go to shit, in my experience, 6.5 components are more abundant (smaller pool of end users).
Drink the 6.5 koolaid if you want (it does taste good) but a .308 will still get you there...
just my 2 cents
Barrel life on the .308 is generally better (6-10k) but if you don't shoot that much, this is not an issue. One other major thing to consider, during the entire ammo scare/gun ban, I had a much harder time finding .308 components as opposed to 6.5. When times are good, .308 can be had anywhere (online and local) but if things go to shit, in my experience, 6.5 components are more abundant (smaller pool of end users).
Drink the 6.5 koolaid if you want (it does taste good) but a .308 will still get you there...
just my 2 cents
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Well the thing is I'm 13 and this will be the first rifle I will be paying for (I've had others as gifts) so I will save up the cash then give it to my uncle to buy the rifle since you have to be 18. Then I will make it custom as I go (Mike at tac ops said if sent him a 700 action, a krieger, and a stock he would do everything he does to a Tac ops Tango (except the finish and grip mold).
Obviously it would cost a lot but it would be one hole shooter
Sam
Obviously it would cost a lot but it would be one hole shooter
Sam
You're 13 and you're about to get yourself a TacOps? What do your parents do for a living?
I was about to ask the same question!
I must say I'm rather jealous! But hey, take it if you can get it, right?
Don't buy a custom rifle until you can outshoot a factory rifle. You're throwing bad money at it rather than learning the skills. You need somebody to take you under their wing and teach you. Perhaps you could find a training course. that will be more valuable than sending money to a smith.
If your 13 then your parents need to get you a sps tactical in 223 with a Bushnell 3200 10x or a super sniper 10x on it . Hornady makes good ammo for a decent price for it. Little recoil and a great learning rifle and still a very professional rifle in its own way.
Tac ops for you? Way to much overkill. You will be very surprised to see what you can do with the aforementioned rig. That money saved can be spent in ammo. You will need it if you really want to learn how to shoot that thing.
Good luck!
Tac ops for you? Way to much overkill. You will be very surprised to see what you can do with the aforementioned rig. That money saved can be spent in ammo. You will need it if you really want to learn how to shoot that thing.
Good luck!
6.5 creedmoor has more bc, less recoil, more accurate (IMO), and factory ammo is usually very accurate
I'm not buying a full tac ops rifle, I'm buying a .308 sps tactical then mike said he would true it, bed it, and everything else he does to a tac ops except finish and molded grips, but I have to send him the rifle, a krieger barrel, and a stock and he will be putting it together (so I'm buying all the parts).
Also it'll be a year and a half before I have the cash (in that year in a half ill have graduation, 2 bays, this years bday will be in december plus next december, and 2 Christmas, plus allowance, so lots a cash coming in
Also it'll be a year and a half before I have the cash (in that year in a half ill have graduation, 2 bays, this years bday will be in december plus next december, and 2 Christmas, plus allowance, so lots a cash coming in
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Also I have another bolt rifle, it's a remington 770 with a redfield revolution with the accu range reticle in .243, my first deer I brought that rifle and saw a deer from the car on the way to the deer blind, it was right in front of us 100yrds away and I had to sniper crawl to get to a suitable ffp and got it right in the neck and I shot it in the kneeling position
There's no point in having it trued or rebarrelled if you don't have the skills accompanying the performance. Spend the $1500+ that a barrel, true job, stock job, and bedding would cost you and buy ammo and training. You'll be much better for it. You've got a lot of life ahead of you to upgrade.
Do any of you know any books or websites that teach formulas for wind and elev and all the things you need to know bout long range shooting (how to make formulas, how to make a dope, etc)
Snipershide.com
Could you post a link to the teaching and formula lessons parts on the hide
fm 23-10....
Given the nearly infinite # of variables, there is no single repository of knowledge. It exists / comes about it two ways:
(1) Extensive reading of everything you can find. Sniperhide.com is a great place to read. You need to read extensively to even know the right questions to ask.
(2) Personal hands on trial and error testing and experimentation.
For a 13 y.o., you are ahead of a lot of people your age. But (and this is just my opinion, ignore it if you want ) a username like "Navyseal" isn't helping people take you seriously. That's a title earned, not given or taken. Its a hallowed word, not an internet handle.
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You could sign up for Frank's online training.
You could also go to Rifles Only.
The wind and range work won't do you a whole whole lot of good until you get the fundamentals down first.
You could also go to Rifles Only.
The wind and range work won't do you a whole whole lot of good until you get the fundamentals down first.
Any of the large case 6.5 bores overcome the 308 after about 300-500 yards when using heavier bullets, and in many cases, light bullets. Comparing the 139-144 grain 6.5 bore bullets to the 168-178 grain bullets in a 308, and the 6.5 will retain more energy after around 300-500 yards. However, that being said, I wouldn't be stuck on ONLY the 6.5 Creedmoor. While it is a very good cartridge, the 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Remington, and 6.5x47 are essentially all the same (ballistically speaking). I would base my choice of cartridge on whichever one I could get the cheapest, and most readily availble ammo, components, and equipment for. All three shoot about the same.
I'm not buying a full tac ops rifle, I'm buying a .308 sps tactical then mike said he would true it, bed it, and everything else he does to a tac ops except finish and molded grips, but I have to send him the rifle, a krieger barrel, and a stock and he will be putting it together (so I'm buying all the parts).
Also it'll be a year and a half before I have the cash (in that year in a half ill have graduation, 2 bays, this years bday will be in december plus next december, and 2 Christmas, plus allowance, so lots a cash coming in
Ok. I need to toss in something. It's bugging me. Hard.
You're 13. If I read this thread correctly, you have a .243 and a 308 already?
Over the next 18 MONTHS you are saving your pennies to buy new gear.
One, that's money you could be spending on shooting activities over the next 18 months.
Two, Once you spend that money, it's gone. And I would postulate it won't make any difference in your shooting. Now that may seem contrary to the common thinking on this site. But it's true. Don't waste your money. Once you spend it, it's gone. And you are giving up a year and a half of shooting time, on an obviously limited budget, for nothing.
If I was your mentor, and I had control over your life, and assuming I am taking what you are saying at face value (which is hard talking to a 13 year old), I would find the nearest group of rifle competitions and make you spend money on shooting the gun you brung. Son, don't be a gear-QU@@R. It's a trap. It's an amateur's mistake. And it's also a cop-out since there is no fear of failure. GQ's can spend more and more money on brands and fads with no risk to their ego. I see it all the time. They are buying street-cred. Or at least trying. Pretty, expensive guns, with pretty expensive optics, and not a scratch on them. Real men scratch their guns. (No. Stop. Don't tell me well used this or that is. You're 13 and you want to buy a fancy new gun. You have no creds here).
It's one thing if it's a guy who has a wife and three kids a mortgage and extra money to burn so he can play sniper once in a while. But you are young. You have no money (No. Stop. YOU Don't. Unless you've got a mortgage, you don't). You have your whole life ahead of you and IMO, if you do this, you are wasting it. Let me say it again. Wasting it.
You have a 308. You could buy match ammo and see how that runs. You have a 243, you could learn or have help reloading, and run that as a wind cheater. If your current rifles aren't "tactical enough", buy a stock-pack and a QD quality bi-pod. Get out and shoot. Run the guns you have. Maybe make upgrades to those rifles a little bit at a time. If that's not in the cards, and if I was your mentor I probably would make the choice for you, sell one or both of those rifles and put it towards a COTS (Using Military / GOV'T terms to make it seem cool. Google it) rifle at a reasonable price. Again, I wouldn't let you make the choice. Perhaps that's a GREAT IDEA for your next thread? Post a pic of both of your rifles, and the name of the local match you find. And get advice on what small changes you need to make to those platforms. That would be an interesting thread.
Here are some goals for you, NS. Before you do anything about buying a new fancy rifle why don't you figure out the rifles you have? Both your rifles. I want the following from you:
1. What factory loads shoot best in both rifles at 100 yards? I don't care if it's Walmart blowout ammo. Test ALL OF IT!
2. What is the FPS of the bullets you are testing in YOUR rifles?
3. I want 3,5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yards with various ammos.
4. I want dope charts. Even if it's theoretical out to 300 or 600. Get your data at 100 and plug it in some software.
5. I want you to test and prove your cold-bore shot with your chosen load and stringing as your barrel heads up. Figure it out.
6. I want you to shoot ladders with your chosen load. Why? Figure it out.
You do all of this and THEN Maybe we can address buying a new rifle. Maybe. Probably not. But no excuses. You could do all 6 of these things with a 10/22.
I am posting this in the hopes of...actually.....trying.....to.....help......you.
TTR
308, because when the poop hits the fan you can still get ammo.
BEST ADVICE YET!!!!!! A+ On this post! and "gear queer" Im gona use that term at least 3 times this month! hahaha
This is sound advice!
If you MUST move forward: I would suggest following this blueprint: http://8541tactical.com/budget precision article.php
He gives sound advice and does it on a budget. Bear in mind the .308 will recoil much more than your .243.
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I was not aware of the rifles already owned. Throw my sps 10x advice and learn what you got. I took a guy out shooting a few weeks back with a pencil bbl sps rem m700 and it shot way better than I ever thought it would.
Long story short is that he has been looking at all this gear to startblr shooting but going at that with absolutely no knowledge of lr shooting and after a half day with him hr can probably hit deer out to 500-600 yds with his setup. Your setup might be plenty fine for now. If you don't believe me then let's swap rifles and go shoot against each other. Bet a guy with a lil bit of knowledge trumps the guy with none. Not being rude. Just saying that learning what you got is Deff your first step in marksmanship. You can NOT pass this up. My first 2 rifles in starting me up was a regular 100-22 and then a old surplus 6.5x55 with a buttload of old Norma ammo for it. The 10-22 had a scope, the old swede was iron sights with adjustments for longer shots. Those two things were invaluable to my learning. Then after several years and jobs I bought a what is now called the Bushnell elite 4200 on a winchester m70 that started my modern firearms learning curve. You could've handed my a tac ops rifle with a great load and data and I would've been in the same shape I was before.
Remember that it doesn't take much to start the learning curve. Bullets fall in gravity and drift in the wind the same from tac ops rifles as they do from a sps deer rifle.
Go shoot those guns and let us know what happens. There is a lot of knowledge to come out of those rifles.
Long story short is that he has been looking at all this gear to startblr shooting but going at that with absolutely no knowledge of lr shooting and after a half day with him hr can probably hit deer out to 500-600 yds with his setup. Your setup might be plenty fine for now. If you don't believe me then let's swap rifles and go shoot against each other. Bet a guy with a lil bit of knowledge trumps the guy with none. Not being rude. Just saying that learning what you got is Deff your first step in marksmanship. You can NOT pass this up. My first 2 rifles in starting me up was a regular 100-22 and then a old surplus 6.5x55 with a buttload of old Norma ammo for it. The 10-22 had a scope, the old swede was iron sights with adjustments for longer shots. Those two things were invaluable to my learning. Then after several years and jobs I bought a what is now called the Bushnell elite 4200 on a winchester m70 that started my modern firearms learning curve. You could've handed my a tac ops rifle with a great load and data and I would've been in the same shape I was before.
Remember that it doesn't take much to start the learning curve. Bullets fall in gravity and drift in the wind the same from tac ops rifles as they do from a sps deer rifle.
Go shoot those guns and let us know what happens. There is a lot of knowledge to come out of those rifles.
Do any of you know of any youth competitions in missouri
Thank you very much, I have seen the light but there aren't any youth competitions that I know of in missouri
If only you were closer, I would take you to my range and we would go through everything TacticalshirtsRep told you to do. Because he is 100% correct! And you would owe me no money, only help when I said I needed it.
I havn't seen it mentioned, but everyone forgive me if it has. What kind of optics do you have? There are plenty of off the shelf rifles that will shoot 1 MOA or better now days. The trick to the whole thing is the optics. You WILL NOT get any long range shooting accomplished without the right optics. So as others have told you to save your money, one thing you will need is a quality base, rings, and scope. But! That one quality scope can ride on both the rifles you already have. If you would be allowed to sell either the .308 or .243 then it may be a good idea to do so to fund the scope.
I havn't seen it mentioned, but everyone forgive me if it has. What kind of optics do you have? There are plenty of off the shelf rifles that will shoot 1 MOA or better now days. The trick to the whole thing is the optics. You WILL NOT get any long range shooting accomplished without the right optics. So as others have told you to save your money, one thing you will need is a quality base, rings, and scope. But! That one quality scope can ride on both the rifles you already have. If you would be allowed to sell either the .308 or .243 then it may be a good idea to do so to fund the scope.
At the moment I have a redfield Revolution 3-9 with the accu range reticle capped turrets not target
A scope with a Mil recticle and .1 Mil turrets will make this quest much more attianable. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars to get a scope that will work for you. There are pleny that are around or less than $500 that will work. In fact the optics for sale section is a fine place to look for a scope. Here's the short version of how to put all this together, if you were using your .308.
Find ammo the rifle shoots well. If you can't shoot it well, find someone that can.
Get the muzzle velocity of the projectile leaving the barrel, at least five shots, average them to one muzzle velocity.
Get the ballistic coefficient for the bullet. They are available all over the place. Sierra, Hornady, even Midway USA has the ballistic coefficients listed.
The MV (muzzle velocity) and BC (ballistic coefficient) are the two key numbers to plug into a ballistic calculator.
JBM is free and it is a very good calculator that provides very solid data. It will give you your trajectory in the Mils that your recticle and turrets speak in.
Read this website about how to "drive the rifle" as so many call it. Every facet that is mentioned is absolutely correct. Read "The Fundamentals of Marksmanship" over, and over until you have it memorized. It can be found in the Advanced Marksmaship unit. Which is one place you need to spend lots of time before you shoot a single round.
Find ammo the rifle shoots well. If you can't shoot it well, find someone that can.
Get the muzzle velocity of the projectile leaving the barrel, at least five shots, average them to one muzzle velocity.
Get the ballistic coefficient for the bullet. They are available all over the place. Sierra, Hornady, even Midway USA has the ballistic coefficients listed.
The MV (muzzle velocity) and BC (ballistic coefficient) are the two key numbers to plug into a ballistic calculator.
JBM is free and it is a very good calculator that provides very solid data. It will give you your trajectory in the Mils that your recticle and turrets speak in.
Read this website about how to "drive the rifle" as so many call it. Every facet that is mentioned is absolutely correct. Read "The Fundamentals of Marksmanship" over, and over until you have it memorized. It can be found in the Advanced Marksmaship unit. Which is one place you need to spend lots of time before you shoot a single round.
