I didn't know that, I'll take a look.
- Thread starter rlsmith1
- Start date
I didn't know that, I'll take a look.
I like it! I just picked up exact same gun on a cyber Monday special. Only optic I have for it at present is a thermal so working on getting glass on it so I can shoot groups.
So I found a stainless Proof barrel for a great deal while Craddock is as busy as they can be with what they are getting from Bartlein.
I am having issues getting the bolt to unlock after firing, any basic items I should check off the list before reaching out to Proof? Parts are below:
All parts (except the Superlative agb) were previously working 100% with a 20" 223 Wylde barrel. I have Superaltive gas blocks on other rifles and had to tune them in the past so I don't think I'm restricting gas inadvertently.
I can easily work the charging handle to unlock the bolt with or without a cartridge, but once I fire a cartridge it is substantially harder to work the charging handle / unlock the bolt.
Any thoughts?
ETA: pics of the rifle!
I am having issues getting the bolt to unlock after firing, any basic items I should check off the list before reaching out to Proof? Parts are below:
- RRA upper receiver
- 18" Proof barrel with +1 gas (supplied with the barrel)
- Superlative Arms gas block (opened to the 18th click to be "wide open" per their instructions")
- JP 6.5 Grendel Type II bolt (can't remember the bolt carrier brand)
- Form 1 suppressor
All parts (except the Superlative agb) were previously working 100% with a 20" 223 Wylde barrel. I have Superaltive gas blocks on other rifles and had to tune them in the past so I don't think I'm restricting gas inadvertently.
I can easily work the charging handle to unlock the bolt with or without a cartridge, but once I fire a cartridge it is substantially harder to work the charging handle / unlock the bolt.
Any thoughts?
ETA: pics of the rifle!
Attachments
What does the brass look like? Did you check headspace? Do you have the bleed off turned on or off? Did you make sure the gas block is properly aligned with the port?
Brass: see attached
Bleed off is not turned on. Gas block is on position 18 to be all the way open (no restriction / no bleed off)
Barrel came dimpled for rear set screw and that screw is seated deeper than the front one, so almost certain it’s aligned.
Attachments
I would confirm the gas block is aligned and not just trust the set screw location. Also check your gas rings and gas tube length.
Is it not unlocking or moving the BCG at all or just not enough to cycle or is it intermittent?
Is it not unlocking or moving the BCG at all or just not enough to cycle or is it intermittent?
BCG isn't unlocking and therfore not moving. Takes a fair amount of force to rack the empty round out of the chamber too
Is the force the same on an unfired round and empty chamber?
There’s nothing that looks odd on the brass that I can see from the picture.
There’s nothing that looks odd on the brass that I can see from the picture.
No, extracting a fired round is significantly harder. It's really smooth without a fired round. Could be unrelated, but this is the first upper I've noticed that when I ease the charging handle / bcg home on an empty chamber, the charging handle does not latch to the upper receiver. If I let the CH / BCG slam home, then the CH latches to the reciever.
I do not have the tools to check headspace
That brass looks kind of rough to me but it's hard tell anything from such a bad picture. I would wonder about pressure since it wiped Y in hornady all the way off the case. A picture of fired and unfired in a well lit area might help. Handloads or factory ammo?
Do you have a way to measure shoulder growth on a fired case?
Do you have a way to measure shoulder growth on a fired case?
Factory ammo, will grab a pic of fired and undired. I don't think I have a shoulder gauge (just an ogive measurement tool).
I picked Proof and JP because they should be quality and I believe Proof specs off JP in particular for their DOD builds but I could be wrong
How does that work?
Use them like a bullet comparator and measure as close as you can to the datum line on the shoulder. Probably be best to decap the 9mm or 40 brass.
I have a 224 predator that took about a mag or so before it wanted to cycle “normally.” I had to force open the action for the first several, then it sort of short stroked for several more, then it started working. I just assumed it was the surfaces “wearing in.”
It cycled super smooth without a cartridge, but a spent case was a challenge to remove when the gun was minty fresh.
I appreciate all the thoughts! Per usual, it was USER ERROR 
When I “installed” the gas tube, I did not seat the tube all the way in the gas block before installing the roll pin. Of course, it’s hard for gas to flow through the system when the tube isn’t line up with the port. I knew that roll pin went in way too easily…
When I “installed” the gas tube, I did not seat the tube all the way in the gas block before installing the roll pin. Of course, it’s hard for gas to flow through the system when the tube isn’t line up with the port. I knew that roll pin went in way too easily…
I appreciate all the thoughts! Per usual, it was USER ERROR
When I “installed” the gas tube, I did not seat the tube all the way in the gas block before installing the roll pin. Of course, it’s hard for gas to flow through the system when the tube isn’t line up with the port. I knew that roll pin went in way too easily…
Ahhh that makes sense as to why it was having trouble with the CH latching and going fully into barrel.
Check your gas tube to make sure you didn’t put a kink in its dink. That’s like 1/4” or so it’ll be standing off which is pretty significant so you might have tweaked it a little. It can be straightened back out though.
I really like your “percent of everything” measure. What percent of everything would you say the 22ARC covers?
I’ve got 24”, 20”, and 12.5” 6ARC AR uppers. I’m stoked to see the Ruger American Gen 2 coming, and am trying to decide between 6ARC and 22ARC.
I could go either way. 6ARC would share cases with my ARs and projectiles with my other ARCs and 6CM. 22ARC would benefit from cheaper and more consistently available bullets.
Then again, I could just go with .223 Rem, since 90+% of my shooting is within 200 yards.
I just looked that up. I will definitely be buying one of those in 6 ARC.
They're pretty close, honestly it's mostly a point of personal preference between 22 and 6mm ARC. I tend to favor the heavier bullets for big game and long range, but there's quite a bit of performance overlap.
Yeah, I’m stoked about it! If the stock is decently rigid, I think it will be a killer deal.
Thanks. I’m thinking it might make sense to avoid adding yet another caliber to the stable, if nothing else because I don’t enjoy sorting brass from similar calibers after wet tumbling.
I think that between my 6 ARCs and my .223 REMs, I have enough capabilities overlap that I don’t need the 22 ARC. Having said that, if I could snap my fingers and convert all my 6 ARCs to 22 ARC, I’d strongly consider it due to the lower bullet cost and higher availability of .224s.
If I kept the 6 ARCs, it would be because I love my little 12.5” precision SBR. It’s supersonic out to 1000yd and I consider it effective out to 600.
Thanks for helping me decide!
If it’s anything like the current American they aren’t bad, the worst part is the ergos. I’d just suffer through it though until a decent chassis came out that’s not heavy AF and has a more vertical grip.
I’d bet that the receiver has the same footprint and will be compatible with existing stocks. I could be totally wrong though.
I’ll be very curious to see whether the triggers are any better. The safety has changed, so it’s reasonable to think there may be other changes to the trigger group. I’ve heard the action is much smoother from initial reports.
The stock looks a bit more substantial to me, and the product page specifies that it’s designed to free float the barrel. The Gen 1 stock was designed for aesthetics, not functionality. If the factory stock is no good, I may order a Magpul stock.
Anyway, didn’t meant to hijack this thread!
The tang looks different where the new style safety is. If it works with current stocks that would be great but it looks like the tang is different enough that they won’t be compatible. I hope I’m wrong though so I don’t have to hate it for 2 years until a chassis I’ll like gets released.
Amen. Fingers crossed. Looks like you might be right though.
Borden makes(made?) an action like that for BRs and dashers. Specifically for the shorter bolt throw. But it required special magazines because all the normal length 700 short action AICS box mags all seat cases at the rear of the mag length. So when you start talking about trying to shave fractions of an inch off of bolt throw you really start down a path of diminishing returns. You have to make custom magazines which should not be a big expensive endeavor, but somehow it always seems like it is. And you're stepping outside of the existing patterns of reliability. And then by coming up with a smaller bespoke magazine, you've just boxed yourself into a shorter overall length. I'm sure it can be done. Howa did it with their mini. But to a lot of folks, the shorter bolt throw just doesn't justify all the other issues that you start to incur. I guess you could hide the front of the mag under the actions feed ramp but because of where the action screw is you'd have to have a weird, funky, super long barrel tenon to make it back to the bolt face. In fact, I think the Borden action had that because they kept the action screw length for 700SA compatibility in stocks.
The smarter play would probably just be to use BR mag kits the push the round forward in the mag and incorporating a Tikka style "long" bolt stop that limits the unnecessary rearward travel of the bolt.
The MDT 6 ARC mags feed from the front, not the rear of the mag. They have a built-in block in the back of the magazine keeping the cartridges and follower in the front. They are what I use in my MPR 6mm ARC, and they feed flawlessly. The only gripe about that gun is the 90º bolt throw and the full-pull bolt travel, when it could stop about 1/2 the distance it normally does at full-pull for .308 based cartridges.
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What are you trying to accomplish with a shorter throw? Do you think it equates to some sort of engagement speed?
Well, it does, but it also allows for less movement of the arm, and you can simply work the bolt with your forearm and hand, and not your whole arm. And not having to ride it all the way back is just pointless excess movement. This can be important when shooting prone. Less movement = keeping yourself on target more between shots.
I also think it might be a slightly bit more reliable cycling with the short ARC/Grendel cartridges. Not that I've had any issues with my MPR, but the less time and distance between 2 points, means less chance for problems.
I'm used to the long throw of Tikka's no matter the caliber but yeah a 90degree throw annoys me. Main reason for me is how close you are to the scope. Just set up a Bergara for a buddy and didn't like that 90.
It doesn't. It's the equivalent of replacing your shoelaces with fishing line to save weight thinking it will make your run time faster. The real opportunity to make up time is target transitions, shooting clean so you don't require make up shots, and how quickly you can establish positions.
As far as reliability, I genuinely think that comes down to the feed angle and magazine lip release. The extra distance behind the spacer on a BR mag that the bolt can travel doesn't effect feeding.
If you're considering rifle movement while running the bolt as a detracting factor then what you want is the light bolt lift of a two lug action. Whether people like 90° actions or 60°/75° actions it's undeniable that two lug 90° actions can be run to provide the least amount of gun movement due to the force required to compress the firing pin spring on the cocking ramp.
Gas guns. This is the way.
A skilled bolt gunner can keep a rate of fire at precision rifle ranges and sized targets as fast as a gas gun. Most gas guns are lighter than purpose built bolt action PR's and to shoot the same round you're talking about a large frame. The follow through and recovery on a 12lb LR308 required for accuracy on a large frame necessitates a delay in the next shot that a bolt gunner will exploit by running the bolt. And the same with trigger squeeze. Extra care has to be given with the longer lock time. The biggest difference is magazine capacity.
Huh? They shot two timed stages. The gas gun was a second faster on the first and the bolt gun was a second faster on the second. The third stages wasn't timed. It looked like a draw. And you can see where the bolt gunner lost time on the first stage, it wasn't running the bolt, he was slow on building stability and breaking a shot. I kinda feel like this actually supports what I was describing.
But you're right in that this is sample size of one. A better look is class after class of guys that have to meet a minimum baseline of marksmanship proficiency before arriving for training and then training them on three major modules of long range precision shooting. Advanced Rifle MMS with a bolt gun, snaps and movers and barricades with SR25s, and then field fire with shooters choice. You see repetitive tranches of industrial grade meat sacks on well established shooting standards. From that perspective I don't think there's a meaningful difference in engagement speed. IMO the difference between the two platforms is size/ weight of the gun, it's ability to serve as a battle rifle in a pinch if has to, the ability to feed more ammo and carry more ammo in a ready to feed format, and then which gun provides increased probability of hits in no-fail situations. Situation dependent. But not in raw engagement speed in precision rifle scenarios.
Go to 2:36 of the video to see the results of the first stage.
Gas Gun 00:53
Bolt Gun 01:01
On the second stage, bolt won by 1 second, but the gas gun guy was running around with around 150 pounds of extra weight.
What evidence, other than your opinion, do you have to show us to back up your claims?
Christmas Eve gas vs bolt fight with Jesus.
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Uh, no.
First of all this is a 6ARC thread, not 308. The recoil impulse is entirely different and there’s significantly less recoil in your typical DMR 6ARC vs a 308. There’s also less mass going back and forth.
The rifle cycles itself and stays on target while the round is on the way to the target. You can spot your impact or miss and immediately send another one even at mid range. You can squeeze off 3 rounds and have them all on the way to the target before the first hits. You’re not doing that with a bolt gun.
Arguing that a bolt gun is as fast as a gas gun is autistic as fuck.
The evidence is the PRS gas gun division circling the drain, and the best scores in PRS being absolutely crushed by bolt action rifles.
Unlike USPSA, you can’t miss fast enough to win.
(I shoot gas guns in comps because they’re more fun to shoot than bolt rifles. They are, however, inferior to bolt guns when accurate fire is required under a time constraint.)
Not this again. I typically like your posts and find them well reasoned and thought out. But this is one of the things you've got dead wrong. Please go to a USPSA match, miss one target, or take an extra two seconds to re engage it then see just how bad that can tank your entire match.
Hey, no offense. USPSA is fun. But, it’s speed shooting at pretty close range. I went to one (my first) a couple of months ago. And, I’m going to hit some more in the new year. You are absolutely correct that the top shooter also made the most hits. And not shooting fast, even when you are making hits will tank your score for sure. Here are the top 9 scores (well the breakdown of their shots). 1 and 2 were the same shooter, open pistol and PCC.
Based on what I see here, I spent too much effort on making good hits. I could have probably placed higher if I had shot closer to the ragged edge of my meager abilities.
There was a youth shooter borrowing a PCC from one of the match organizers. Taping one of the shooter’s targets, the pcc owner said “see how tight this group is? That means you’re not shooting fast enough.”
Fast shooting can most certainly make up for Charlies and a miss.
3 misses, 2 no shoots, and 5 procedurals finished 8th…
Edit- There was also a guy in our squad that was burning down every stage without regard for the target. He actually turned to the RO and said “I’m not shooting at the target” before ripping off the required rounds as fast as possible. He had a reason, but it was some “rules lawyer” stuff that didn’t make sense to me. I was focused on keeping the muzzle pointed down range, not DQing, and making as many A zone hits as I could. I didn’t have anything left for the intricacies of scoring.
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Well that guy is some kind of retard. I'm no USPSA range lawyer but I think an RO could have grounds for DQ if a guy straight up admitted to just ripping rounds off in a general direction.
And congrats on getting into more shooting sports, thats something we can all agree on.
I don't presume to know the level of heat at your particular match, but at every one I've attended as well as every national level majors scores that I've seen, the top shooter is at 90-94% of available points. That means tons of A's, a few C's, an accidental D or two and no M's. Over the course of days of shooting, all at the very edge of one's speed capabilities. I can go to a tiny local match, get one M and it can drop me from high overall to might as well have stayed home.
Missing at all isn't an option, hell, coming into a position on your left foot when you planned for the right isn't an option.
You can certainly miss fast enough to be mid pack, and you can even look pretty cool on the gram doing it, which is where that "splits gets chicks" stigma comes from, but it's not a viable strategy.
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Gas Gun would be fun at an only gas gun match or as part of a gas+bolt team match. Against a bunch of bolt guns it's a great way to get 1st in gas gun and top 50-65% overall.
Having done a few years of bolt gun 6 ARC and finishing 2nd overall in gas gun PRS (also 6 ARC) this year I would say gas gun will generally run through a stage a little faster, but nothing dramatic.
Overall precision capability is lower with the gasser. Believe me, I've tested it to hell and back...
Having done a few years of bolt gun 6 ARC and finishing 2nd overall in gas gun PRS (also 6 ARC) this year I would say gas gun will generally run through a stage a little faster, but nothing dramatic.
Overall precision capability is lower with the gasser. Believe me, I've tested it to hell and back...
I agree. I ran a gas gun match for a couple of years for our local PRS club. I brought the majority of the ranges in, made the targets a bigger, and increased the round count to 15 - 30rds to encourage faster shooting. Mixed in some steel challenge ideas like shooting a 8 target array of 45% IPSCs at 250yds off a rooftop. 3 runs for the best time, clean. I ensured there enough longer range targets that a 3G bro couldn't show up with his 18" tank brake 1-6x and clean house. Just to make sure we're still shooting a PR match. But I also didn't want a guy with a bolt gun showing up and winning. The club didn't want to exclude people that wanted to get a match in with their bolt gun so they allowed bolt guns to shoot even though it was supposed to be a "Tactical AR match". So I engineered the stages to cater to gas gunners. I shot one of the first PRS Gas Gun series matches at Core, now Altus, and saw that they took some of the same steps but it was still a lower round count, more conventional PRS style. The time plus scoring was what really set it apart and that's another element required to deliberately engineer a match format where a gas gun would be the only way to win.
The last two years the match director that ran that particular match just ran the normal monthly PR format. 10rd stages, 2 min pars, 2 - 5 targets out to 1200, 1 to 2 hits per, hit or miss move. I didn't shoot it this year but I think the top 5 were bolt gun shooters. My buddy that was telling me about it this year placed 5th and he was shooting a .223 bolt gun pushing 88's at 2850 to qualify for "tactical" class.
The last two years the match director that ran that particular match just ran the normal monthly PR format. 10rd stages, 2 min pars, 2 - 5 targets out to 1200, 1 to 2 hits per, hit or miss move. I didn't shoot it this year but I think the top 5 were bolt gun shooters. My buddy that was telling me about it this year placed 5th and he was shooting a .223 bolt gun pushing 88's at 2850 to qualify for "tactical" class.
Bahahah this is the most Hide thread ever.
Homie was describing all the challenges of designing a good bolt action, I dropped a joke that gas guns are the way, and I come back to this mess
I won’t win anything either way, but I’ll bring my 24” 6 ARC AR15 to my next PRS match in honor of this thread.
Homie was describing all the challenges of designing a good bolt action, I dropped a joke that gas guns are the way, and I come back to this mess
I won’t win anything either way, but I’ll bring my 24” 6 ARC AR15 to my next PRS match in honor of this thread.
First time on the hide?Bahahah this is the most Hide thread ever.
Homie was describing all the challenges of designing a good bolt action, I dropped a joke that gas guns are the way, and I come back to this mess
I won’t win anything either way, but I’ll bring my 24” 6 ARC AR15 to my next PRS match in honor of this thread.
I definitely regret going 6arc should have went 22 grendel, mine have the accuracy of a flintlock and I have a EC tuner on it out of 4 or 5 3 shot groups I might get one that's an inch thats with 107smk. I'm gonna get a 22 arc barrel
I don’t think that’s the specific calibers fault. Plenty of anecdotal examples with any caliber out there when sample size is one.
