Gunsmithing 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

[carbinero]

I'm moving my question from the "general bolt" forum to here in hopes of getting techie responses, not political...

I read this article and appreciate the book knowledge. I have assembled several AR-15 lowers and am trying to make sense of the 700 issue without disassembling my own... http://www.gunsmiths.com/articledetail.php?id=87

If you keep the trigger clean, is any of this an issue? For example, under typical range conditions, flush it out with Zippo every few hundred rounds, or after each hunting trip in dusty winds...etc. In response to that idea, someone posted to the effect that's unlikely, since the connector is hidden within a metal housing...

I'm thinking particularly re: the writer's points (a) the connector "should" be connected to the trigger and (b) when you drop the rifle [even to seat the stock or scope mounts?] it can introduce excess wear, movement, or space between trigger and connector.

For discussion's sake, can this be compared at all to an AR-15's trigger and disconnector relationship, which I have seen and played with plenty? If that's the case, I don't understand why the Walker trigger should be a problem...except you can;t squirt lighter fluid directly at the small parts. Also, the article says old and new 700 triggers, including the X-Marks, have the floating connector, right? Some people wrote the X-mark solves the Walker design "flaw," whereas the article linked says not.

On one hand, it's a tempest in a teapot, in which no failure will occur without stoning the parts and/or massive filth...on the other hand, it's a design flaw which may in any case fail, regardless of what you do!?

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

OK, here we go! I have taken a few pictures of the Remington 700 Connector style fire control (aka old style, pre-2006). I will attempt to label as many parts as practical and give an understanding of how these parts work together to make this fire control function. I will also explain why I believe from observing the fire control, how and why it could malfunction. Finally, I will attempt to explain why I don't believe keeping this trigger clean is very realistic, let alone the purported fix to what I see as the potential issue.

First a few pictures of the assembled fire control outside of the action. I pulled the trigger off and put the sear/spring and pins back into it:

The picture above shows the front of the trigger housing, with the overtravel adjustment screw (#1) and the trigger reset & pull weight adjustment screw (#2).

The above picture shows the rear of the trigger housing and the sear engagement adjustment screw (#1)

In this picture I removed the rear trigger pin (#2). This allowed the sear (#1) to push upward under the sear spring pressure.

This picture shows the sear spring (#1)

Removed the front trigger spring, and these are the pieces that were removed.

Here I use a screw driver tip to push the retaining clip off of the safety pin.

Pictures here is the detent ball (#1) which holds the saftey in 1 of two positions either on or off. Also the retainer for the detent ball (#2) and the retaining clip (#3).

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

After removal of the safety pin (#2), I removed the sear block safety (#1), and the bolt release lever (#3).

Here I cleaned off the factory sealant on the screws, and removed all of them. The sear engagement screw (#1), the overtravel adjustment screw (#4), and the trigger reset/pull weight adjustment screw (#3) as well as the pull weight & reset spring (#2).

I punched out the trigger pivot pin (#2) from location (#1). This allowed the trigger body (#4) and the infamous connector (#3) to be removed.

This picture shows the orientation of the screws and the trigger body and connector while it is inside the trigger housing.

This pictures shows how the sear is oriented. The sear would have downward pressure due to the striker on the bolt pressing on the rear ramp of the sear. The sear 'pinches' down on the connector squeezing it between itself and the trigger body. The trigger weight/reset spring holds the connector against the trigger body.

As the trigger is squeezed to the rear, the top of the trigger body and the connector rotate forward sliding against the pressure of the sear and well as overcoming the pull weight spring (this is what gives your resistance or pull weight). At a critical point during the forward motion of the top of the connector and trigger body, the the connector actually has enough momentum and pressure induced by the sear to 'spring' forward, away from the trigger body as shown in the picture, leaving a gap between the trigger body and the connector (#1). This allows the sear to drop out of the way of the firing pin striker, allowing the firing pin to release forward causing either a dry fire, or ignition of a cartridge.

A helpful image here is to think of pinching a watermellon seed between your fingers until it shoots out of your hand. The thumb and finger would act as respectively as the sear and the trigger body, while the seed would act as the connector. This is basically what happens EVERY time the trigger is pulled. The connector shoots forward away from the trigger body.

This is an exaggerated picture showing how the connector moves away from the trigger body.

This pictures shows from the side, how well the connector fits against the trigger body.

This shows the rear of the trigger body and the end of the connector. Not much room for lighter fluid to get around behind there, especially when the reset/pull weight spring is holding it tight to the body.

This is from the top view of the trigger body with the connector on it. Again I am struggling to see a good way to clean behind the connector without completely disassembling the whole fire control.

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

When searching on Google, I came up with somewhere between .010" ~.020" as a minimum safe sear engagement, so I took this picture with a .015" gap to give some relation to the size of 'debris' that would need to get in between the trigger body and the connector to cause a problem. Keep in mind this size would be at the top of the connector, and if the debris was located lower down by the reset spring, it could cause a problem at a much smaller size.

This picture shows a .100" hole in the connector that is partially blocked by the overtravel adjustment screw which has a tip diameter of .061", leaving roughly a .020" gap around the screw through the connector. I don't know how likely it would be for debris to go through this hole, or somehow get around the sides of the connector when it is seperated from the trigger body during firing, but I certainly could never say that it would be impossible. Also, like mentioned above, the debris doesn't even need to be the full size of the sear engagement, if it works its way down between the trigger body and the connector, it could create a problem at a much smaller size.

My final question is after looking at this write up, how can you clean behind the connector when the trigger is fully assembled? it seems to me that without removing the connector from the trigger body, there is no way. If you disassemble the trigger to clean it, it will require re-adjustment, and to my knowledge Remington no longer wants people adjusting these triggers? So, what's the protocol? If there is a small piece of debris between your connector and the trigger body, how would you ever know? How would you ever know when it can be introduced? When the trigger is reset after firing, any debris trapped between the connector and the trigger body would now be under pressure from both the sear and the reset/pull weight screw, so even flushing with lighter fluid may not dislodge anything trapped back there...

 

[carbinero]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

GasLight, you and SH blow me away. Once I digest the above, I have a feeling Timney is going to get a call. Muchas gracias!

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Another option that you can look at that is a little cheaper is the JARD upgrade kits, you can get them in a few different pull weights, and with my pictures above it should be fairly easy to install on your trigger. This would do 2 things, upgrade your trigger to a nice and safe pull weight, and remove the connector from service permanently...

Jard Kit

 

[B y r o n]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Or you could epoxy the connector to the trigger.

 

[LWILLIAMS]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Tag

 

[jcfd2201]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Thanks for a great lesson GasLight!! Very informative post and photo series. I had to print it all off to save in my tool box.

 

[300sniper]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

am i understanding you correctly, lighter fluid is too thick to get behind the connector but debris large enough to cause a malfunction can find it's way in there?

 

[former naval person]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Great job. Do the same comments apply to the 40 X triggers? Thanks again!

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">am i understanding you correctly, lighter fluid is too thick to get behind the connector but debris large enough to cause a malfunction can find it's way in there?</div></div>

Debris can possibly get behind the connector during firing, when it is released and comes forward of the trigger body. I think some lighter fluid could get behind there, but we are talking 'flushing' the trigger out? How do you get enough pressure behind there to flush anything out when it is assembled? Without question some lighter fluid could seep behind the connector, but really clean behind it??

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great job. Do the same comments apply to the 40 X triggers? Thanks again!</div></div>

Yes, the 40X triggers use the same connector design. The only difference is that the screw to adjust pull weight and reset is re-routed with a ball bearing so it is located below the trigger instead of in front of it. It is definately suceptible to the same possible malfunctions

Dave

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Trying to think of a better visual to explain what I believe could happen.. Basically during firing, there is a gap opened up between the connector and the trigger body. So lets pretend this is like a pair of pliers. When fired, the jaws open, and then are quickly closed again, when they are closed, there is pressure holding the jaws closed. It is possible that when the jaws are opened, if there is any kind of debris around them, that some of the debris could enter into the jaws, and when the jaws close, the debris would basically be trapped in the jaws, at this point. Now we dribble some lighter fluid over the compressed jaws, my guess is that the lighter fluid would do very little to release anything pinched in the jaws under pressure.

Hope that helps clear up what I am saying above

Dave

 

[former naval person]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Thanks for the whole ball of wax...best explanation I have seen. JARD here I come.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B y r o n</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or you could epoxy the connector to the trigger. </div></div>

This would seem to be a logical solution to the problem that may or may not exist.

 

[GasLight]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Yes, epoxying the connector to the sear will fix any potential problems like I was describing. However, I typically recommend replacing or upgrading the components over this. The biggest reason is for an improved trigger pull. When you upgrade the trigger you will also typically get better materials, such as milled steel vs. the MIM or powder metal that was used in the factory triggers.

One of the genius behind the connector design is that you can get a very crisp trigger pull with very little perceived 'creep'. This is because of the watermelon seed effect (for lack of a better term). The trigger doesn't require as much rearward squeeze to 'activate' the connector into action as would a single piece trigger. This gives the 700 'old style' a better feel per .001" of sear engagement per say. When you epoxy the connector you will change the feel of the trigger, so you will end up with something more like the X-Mark that everyone 'raves' about

As always YMMV,

Dave

 

[Hellbender]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

What I've seen, is not necessarily anything between the connector and trigger, but old, thickened oil (usually old WD40) that is holding and/or slowing the proper, full return of the trigger/connector.

Adjusting the trigger return spring lighter (as is common) makes this problem worse.

Many times this will only show up when the rifle gets cold (oil is thicker) and works fine when it is warm.

 

[kill_goose]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

The only "problem" with the original Remington trigger is morons that dont know how to keep their finger off the damn trigger, dont have a sense of "muzzle awarness", or those that go tinkering with gun parts when they probably shouldn't even be tinkering with lincoln logs.

Than, they have an "accident", blame anything and everything (other than themselves), and try to make a buck from their own negligence.

The only two problems ive seen with the Remington triggers are negligent gun handlers, and un-educated tinkering.

 

[Dans40X]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Nice pics & essay as to the workings of a pre 2006 standard OEM Remington trigger group.
Hydraulics is the term & will rinse debris/crud from the trigger group!!

There are NO MIM/sintered parts in a pre 2006 OEM Rem trigger group.
An X Mark trigger group all internal parts are MIM/sintered.

Solidly affixing the disconnector to the trigger lever by glueing/welding will basically leave you with JUNK.

Side to side movement in the trigger lever(aka Jard/Rifle Basix/Timney) leaves alot to be desired in regards to a repeatable/measurable/consistent trigger pull.

After repeated firings the main reason that your OEM Rem trigger pull has changed is that the square cut RH helical/twist pull
weight spring has THREADED itself into the housing.
CURE-
Break/Deburr both ends of the pull weight spring.
Replace w/.120" diameter LH helix/twist pull weight spring.
(think heat resistant valve core spring for a consistent 1.5Lb pull)

IF & WHEN your bolt stop seams sluggish or sticks in the release position-
Gravity & the speed of light are our only constants.
Remove action from stock-
DOUCHE trigger group/bolt stop with naptha.
While your on a roll-
Field strip the f-pin assy from the bolt body & clean w/ naptha/lightly oil to prevent corrosion for tropics environment-leave drier that a popcorn FART for arctic conditions.
Apply grease to aft end of both bolt LUGS,handles EXTRACTION CAM surface,F-Pin COCKING CAM surface & F-Pin SHROUD THREADS.

IF & I repeat,WHEN-
There is backlash between the trigger lever & connector upon trigger pull adjustment,vastly by the incompetent,and if you need a You Tube video for adjustment procedures,seek professional assistance.
For every action,there is an equal & opposite reaction-
If you decrease sear engagement-you just increased pull weight.
If you decreased pull weight without checking trigger lever to connector backlash-you've F**Ked UP once again!!

It's far from ROCKET SCIENCE!!

A properly TIMED Handle & a LIGHTENED & TIMED OEM F-pin assy improves the system immensely w/ trigger pulls of 1Lb easily obtained.

 

[redirt78]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

Nice thread, tried to add to my "watched topics" list so I could "subscribe" to it... Must have done it wrong, if anyone wants to pm me how to subscribe to a thread, thanks. Sorry, hell of a first post haha

 

[Augustis]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice pics & essay as to the workings of a pre 2006 standard OEM Remington trigger group.

There are NO MIM/sintered parts in a pre 2006 OEM Rem trigger group.
An X Mark trigger group all internal parts are MIM/sintered.</div></div>

First off Dan, I do not know where you get your facts or information, but this comment is ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT !! Some of your other comments are a stretch for me also... but I will leave that for another day.

In the pre 2006 fire control, the sear, trigger body and I believe the housing spacer blocks ARE in fact "powder metal" - sintered technology parts!

Remington changed from the sear/sear safety cam - 2 piece sear & sear safety cam configuration in roughly 1967 to a one piece sintered powder metal part!

This is reflected later, when problems leading to safety related complaints from customers appeared to hit an all time high. This condition was attributed to the new sear, compared to earlier production sears. Remington recommended that they should remove instructions from the owners manual on how to adjust the fire control do to, in large part, the change to a powder metal sear.

In other words, this is what ultimately led to Remington recommending "No trigger adjustment are recommended", since 1972. I guess they forgot to mention that small detail, they, at that time, changed the rules with a cost saving measure to adopt the powder metal sear - which apparently led to an increase in reported safety related malfunctions & complaints from the field.

Aug ><>

 

[WRENCHHEAD]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

good info. never knew the trigger internals where MIM

 

[Augustis]

Re: 700 trigger Design "Flaw"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, epoxying the connector to the sear will fix any potential problems like I was describing. However, I typically recommend replacing or upgrading the components over this. The biggest reason is for an improved trigger pull. When you upgrade the trigger you will also typically get better materials, such as milled steel vs. the MIM or powder metal that was used in the factory triggers.

One of the genius behind the connector design is that you can get a very crisp trigger pull with very little perceived 'creep'. This is because of the watermelon seed effect (for lack of a better term). The trigger doesn't require as much rearward squeeze to 'activate' the connector into action as would a single piece trigger. This gives the 700 'old style' a better feel per .001" of sear engagement per say. When you epoxy the connector you will change the feel of the trigger, so you will end up with something more like the X-Mark that everyone 'raves' about

As always YMMV,

Dave </div></div>

Dave - Very good analgy! I would like to add this, not to detract from your post, but hopefully complement it in some way if possible?

One of the functions of the the trigger connector is that when the trigger body motion is limited by the over travel screw, the connector will continue to rotate forward after the trigger body motion is/becomes blocked by the over travel screw - with the stabilizing leg at the bottom of the connector acting as the pivot point - With this design feature, the top of the trigger connector continues to rotates forward, because of the negative angle on the connector as the sear rides down that portion of the connector to release the striker. The trigger connector ultimately acts to reduce the perceived over travel distance of the trigger, felt by the shooter, at the instant of release of the striker.

You are absolutely correct, a one piece trigger will require more travel distance for obvious functional reasons.

I would like to raise this question at this time - If the trigger connector feature is so AWESOME, why did not ONE other manufacturer EVER adopt this feature - aftermarket or otherwise?

The original patent issued for this fire control design, dated July 11, 1950, only protected the novelty of the feature for 17 years total.

Why no takers then - think about that for a minute?

Aug ><>