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Accuracy issues...

E

eyekahn

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Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 2, 2012
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Ok, so I am at a loss trying to figure out why my rifle isn't shooting better. Here are the specs on the rifle, Remington 700 AAC-SD, MCM A5(pillar bedded), Jewell trigger, M5 DBM, Larue 20 MOA base, Badger rings, Bushnell HDMR scope, Badger bolt, Surefire MB. I've put about 1K through it. Cleaned it about every 250 rounds, just a wet patch twice and a clean patch two to three times. Bore is immaculate, no imperfections in rifling, crown is immaculate as well. The rifle shoots 1.25 MOA average. I set my calipers to .308, hit zero, then measure edge of furthest hole to furthest hole. All my equipment is tight and Loctited down correctly. It will shoot 3/4 moa every now and then but its never consistent, even with the same load.

At first I thought it was my scale throwing charges. However, my Brother in law has the exact same rifle with same mods, but he has an AAC brake and a Nightforce, it shoots 3/4 MOA average with quite a few 1/2 MOA groups and one .19 MOA group. We went shooting yesterday to figure out what was going on. We shot each others rifles, our own rifles, and we shot each others hand loads. All groups we shot were 5 shot, all ammo has the exact same case length and COAL. We both used a 10rd AICS mag for each group. Each group was shot in 1-2 minute gaps with a 3-5 second gap between each shot in the group, the groups did not seem to be effected by barrels heating up. However, the two best groups of the day were shot on cold bore. All shots were at exactly 100 yards to the muzzle, in 60 degree weather, zero wind(our range has a 10ft berm on left with thick trees all the way down the range and thick trees all to the right of it all the way down the range. Its about 15 yards wide. So wind is not an issue even on windy days), and at about 30 feet above sea level. We both used a Harris bipod and a Triad rear bag. Here is a little data:


Shooter: Clay(me)

Rifle: Clay's / Kevin's

Load: Lapua brass, Fed 210, 43gr AA4064, 178 Amax: NA / .959, .915 MOA

LC brass, Fed 210, 44 gr Varget, 178 Amax: 1.100 MOA / .972, .698 MOA

LC brass, Fed 210, 43 gr IMR4064, 178 Amax: 1.360 MOA / NA

Fed brass, Fed 210, 42gr Varget, 168 Nosler CC: 1.643 MOA / .421 MOA


Shooter: Kevin (brother in law)

Rifle: Clay's / Kevin's

Load: Lapua brass, Fed 210, 43gr AA4064, 178 Amax: .822. 1.314 MOA / NA

LC brass, Fed 210, 44 gr Varget, 178 Amax: 1.041, 1.519 MOA / 1.746 MOA(called flyer)

LC brass, Fed 210, 43 gr IMR4064, 178 Amax: NA / .793 MOA

Fed brass, Fed 210, 42gr Varget, 168 Nosler CC: .659 MOA / NA

Kevin's rifle average: .929MOA(with called flyer throwing data off) / .793MOA(without called flyer group), greatest deviation between groups of same load(excluding called flyer) .274MOA

Clays rifle average: 1.182MOA with no called flyers, greatest deviation between groups of same load .984MOA

So, that is all the data we collected. I know its not perfect, we should have shot two groups with every Rifle/Shooter combo. However, there is an obvious trend with his rifle shooting all loads sub MOA, with the exception of the called flyer, and mine only shooting 2 sub MOA, no matter who is shooting. I am at a loss as to what is causing my rifle to shoot so poorly compared to an almost identical rifle. Any ideas? Here are some pictures of the groups and a photo of Kevin's .19MOA 5 shot group a few days prior to the test.















This group was shot with Kevin's gun by Kevin a few days prior to the testing. Its a .19MOA 5 shot group at 100, just to show you what his rifle has done...

 
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It's just goes to show how accuracy goes when buying a standard factory rifle, some shoot good, some don't. A friend and I bought 243 WSSM uppers that were the same. His shot great and mine didn't. I'm a accomplished reloader and after a lot of work I got it shooting almost as good as my friends but....

You could try experimenting with seating depth and doing a ladder or OCW. Maybe even glass bedding it.
 
steve123 said:
It's just goes to show how accuracy goes when buying a standard factory rifle, some shoot good, some don't. A friend and I bought 243 WSSM uppers that were the same. His shot great and mine didn't. I'm a accomplished reloader and after a lot of work I got it shooting almost as good as my friends but....

You could try experimenting with seating depth and doing a ladder or OCW. Maybe even glass bedding it.
Click to expand...

+1 Could be that your rifle doesn't like the same loads as his, could be you got the last 700 of the line that day when everyone was tired and ready to go home. This is why there is such a lucrative market gunsmiths who specialize in accurizing the 700…The very reason I upgraded from my 700…Will be sending it off to have it rebarreled to a 6.5 Creedmoor..
 
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Accuracy issues...

It's almost impossible to diagnose these things on the Internet.

The first place I look when I see groups like that is at the shooter. If it's not you, and you are hammering with the other rifle, then it could be a bad barrel. Clean the barrel and see if it still fouls badly after one shot.

It could be a bad scope, and you could try mounting a known scope, but in this case I doubt it.

I don't know what you mean by everything being locktited properly. There should be no need to locktite anything.

The quickest and easiest fix is to chamber a new barrel. But first use factory match ammo to test.
 
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all ammo has the exact same case length and COAL.

Thats what I would address first, they might be the exact same guns, however the OAL will be different and the same ammo
will produce different results.
 
The problem is not with your rifle - problem is the media (internet, rags, movies ....).

Your rifle shoots better than it supposed to. People pick and choose their groups and post them on internet and it gets to you.
Sprinkle some of the "when I do my part" on top - and every rifle found at the bottom of the lake shoots sub-MOA.

You have a factory rifle that can hit a torso at the limit of the cartridge it is chambered in - what else to ask for? At least you are honest with your rifle and yourself. You can't expand your limits if you don't know where they are at.

If you want a benchrest accuracy - build a benchrest gun, with a benchrest cartridge, in benchrest stock ....
 
Graham said:
It's almost impossible to diagnose these things on the Internet.

The first place I look when I see groups like that is at the shooter. If it's not you, and you are hammering with the other rifle, then it could be a bad barrel. Clean the barrel and see if it still fouls badly after one shot.

It could be a bad scope, and you could try mounting a known scope, but in this case I doubt it.

I don't know what you mean by everything being locktited properly. There should be no need to locktite anything.

The quickest and easiest fix is to chamber a new barrel. But first use factory match ammo to test.
Click to expand...


Thanks for all the feedback. I will buy some factory ammo to test as well and check the OAL. As far as loctite goes. I have had screws torqued properly and still backout in the past so now I put a few drops of loctite on everything just to be sure...

I also understand it's hard to diagnose the issue online, I'm just looking for some insight on something I could do personally that I might be over looking to enhance the accuracy. I would love to send the rifle to GAP and say make it a 3/8 MOA rifle but throwing a lot of cash at the rifle isn't my first choice, especially considering the amount I have invested in it and if it's just a quick cheap fix.
 
How did you come up with the loads for the rifles ? Ladder tests, OCW or some other method and at what distance.
What we're the groups like in your tests, where was the scatter node and did you work on seating depth tests.

I would think the load development pictures would help a lot more to diagnose the potential problem.

Have you both tried factory FGMM 168's and 175's for a base line ?
 
moboost said:
The problem is not with your rifle - problem is the media (internet, rags, movies ....).

Your rifle shoots better than it supposed to. People pick and choose their groups and post them on internet and it gets to you.
Sprinkle some of the "when I do my part" on top - and every rifle found at the bottom of the lake shoots sub-MOA.

You have a factory rifle that can hit a torso at the limit of the cartridge it is chambered in - what else to ask for? At least you are honest with your rifle and yourself. You can't expand your limits if you don't know where they are at.

If you want a benchrest accuracy - build a benchrest gun, with a benchrest cartridge, in benchrest stock ....
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. People say oh my rifle is 1/2 moa and show only one group. I am basing my accuracy against the guy shooting next to me with the same system on the same day and also with my same rifle. I'm just looking for some insight on to why my rifle shoots 1/2 to 3/4 moa worse and has such an irratic spread when shooting the exact same load. I do agree that hitting a torso at the distance my cartridge is capable of is a no brainier with my rifle. But I built it as an all around shooter that I can shoot in long range competitions not just a bench rest rifle. I'd think asking 3/4MOA average is a fair request of my current set up especially seeing how my brother in laws shoots.
 
AtOne said:
How did you come up with the loads for the rifles ? Ladder tests, OCW or some other method and at what distance.
What we're the groups like in your tests, where was the scatter node and did you work on seating depth tests.

I would think the load development pictures would help a lot more to diagnose the potential problem.

Have you both tried factory FGMM 168's and 175's for a base line ?
Click to expand...

Yes ladder tests. I diddnt save the groups, if it shot over 1.5MOA I disregarded it. It shoots factory fgmm 168 exactly the same. It will shoot a 3/4MOA group then a 1.5MOA group, no pulled flyers, no change in anything. I'm gonna try a few boxes of other match ammo and some 175 FGMM to see if it's still irratic.
 
moboost said:
The problem is not with your rifle - problem is the media (internet, rags, movies ....).

Your rifle shoots better than it supposed to. People pick and choose their groups and post them on internet and it gets to you.
Sprinkle some of the "when I do my part" on top - and every rifle found at the bottom of the lake shoots sub-MOA.

You have a factory rifle that can hit a torso at the limit of the cartridge it is chambered in - what else to ask for? At least you are honest with your rifle and yourself. You can't expand your limits if you don't know where they are at.

If you want a benchrest accuracy - build a benchrest gun, with a benchrest cartridge, in benchrest stock ....
Click to expand...


Spot on. Especially the last sentence.

I have purpose driven rifles.

One for rimfire competition - sub,sub MOA, necessary to compete.
One for Highpower competition - close to sub MOA, but not necessary to shoot sub MOA to compete
Several for Hunting - some sub MOA, some not.

To me they are all plenty accurate.

cheers,
 
Accuracy issues...

gaphighpower said:
Spot on...To me they are all plenty accurate.
Click to expand...
First of all, the rifles you describe are more accurate than the OP's rifle, so their accuracy is not relevant to your argument. Second, the OP's rifle does not shoot better than 'it is supposed to' and neither his rifle nor every rifle shoots sub MOA. Third, the problem is not with 'the media', the OP has either a shooter problem or a gun problem, or both.
 
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eyekahn said:
Yes ladder tests. I diddnt save the groups, if it shot over 1.5MOA I disregarded it. It shoots factory fgmm 168 exactly the same. It will shoot a 3/4MOA group then a 1.5MOA group, no pulled flyers, no change in anything. I'm gonna try a few boxes of other match ammo and some 175 FGMM to see if it's still irratic.
Click to expand...

Make sure you get the 308 FGMM. I bought some 7.61x51 FGMM and it shot like crap out of every thing I put it through. Only thing that shot better than the 308 FGMM, at least in my AI, was the Black Hills 175 Match. My Remington really likes the 168 FGMM.
 
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308Shooter1911 said:
Make sure you get the 308 FGMM. I bought some 7.61x51 FGMM and it shot like crap out of every thing I put it through. Only thing that shot better than the 308 FGMM, at least in my AI, was the Black Hills 175 Match. My Remington really likes the 168 FGMM.
Click to expand...

Please explain to me where FGMM .308 is different from FGMM (7.62x51). If you can't, you should probably stop giving advice on ammo for a while.

Dk47i9m.jpg
 
Factory rifles vary. His may be just shoot better than yours.

When you measure groups, either

a. measure the outside diameter of an average hole the bullet produced in that target and zero your calipers there... a .308 bullet does not make a .308 diameter hole or smear on paper

or better yet

b. zero the calipers at zero (closed) then measure from the outside edge of one hole to the inside edge of the opposite hole... this accounts for the difference in apparent size between the holes made by the same bullets in the same paper from consecutive shots, which are rarely the same. It's also easier than resetting the calipers every time.

Joe
 
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shankster.. said:
Please explain to me where FGMM .308 is different from FGMM (7.62x51). If you can't, you should probably stop giving advice on ammo for a while.

Dk47i9m.jpg
Click to expand...

I bought some FGMM, from Cheaper than Dirt, it said 7.62X51, NOT 308 Winchester, I'll take a pick of the box when I get home. The brass was dirty, and it shot like shit. No where on the box did it say 308 Winchester. The boxes I bought from a local merchant 308 Win where the other boxes said 7.62X51. If you haven't experienced it, then STFU.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-6921

Apparently I'm not the only one that has noticed.

http://m14forum.com/ammunition/105147-federal-gold-medal-match-7-62x51.html
 
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Accuracy issues...

Was it a bad lot of ammo or was it really a quality issue? What was the cause of the poor accuracy? Flyers? Extreme spreads? What were the velocities/SD numbers?
 
Graham said:
Was it a bad lot of ammo or was it a quality issue? What was the cause of the poor accuracy? Flyers? Extreme spreads? What were the velocities/SD numbers?
Click to expand...

I bought a few boxes because it was "FGMM". Shot it in three different rifles and it wouldn't group well approximately 2 MOA. When I'd buy a new rifle I would give it another chance, same results as the previous rifles. Finally got my AE, which I know is a proven shooter. 7.62x51 held 1.5 MOA where as the 308 would hold 3/4 MOA. I'm no 1/4 Minute shooter and don't claim to be, but I know when it's the rifle and when it's me. Never ran it through a chrono so I don't have that info.
 
Graham said:
Those crimped primers make the load shoot much, much worse.

It does. That's the very problem he posted.
Click to expand...

No, what he wrote was "Ok, so I am at a loss trying to figure out why my rifle isn't shooting better."

He offered as evidence that his rifle does not shoot as well as his BIL's.

I offered an explanation as to why.

Once again, dipshit, you need to work on those reading comprehension skills.

Joe
 
Eyekahn,

When you say your stock is 'pillar bedded' do you mean is has pillars or that the action was in reality bedded to that stock? It's hard to tell from your pictures but it looks like your gun may be 'double grouping' which means it's shifting in the stock. Most guns that are dropped into a stock will be around an MOA. To get seriously under that it's needs individual bedding.

Realistically, both your guns are shooting the same, around an MOA. I seriously doubt you would see any difference in the field.

Your greatest improvement will come from practice.
 
It has pillars bedded into the stock. I am under the impression that is called pillar bedding. Good point on the double grouping. Seems vary possible that skim or glass bedding the action will help. Thanks for the reply.
 
eyekahn said:
Ok, so I am at a loss trying to figure out why my rifle isn't shooting better. Here are the specs on the rifle, Remington 700 AAC-SD, MCM A5(pillar bedded), Jewell trigger, M5 DBM, Larue 20 MOA base, Badger rings, Bushnell HDMR scope, Badger bolt, Surefire MB. I've put about 1K through it. Cleaned it about every 250 rounds, just a wet patch twice and a clean patch two to three times. Bore is immaculate, no imperfections in rifling, crown is immaculate as well. The rifle shoots 1.25 MOA average. I set my calipers to .308, hit zero, then measure edge of furthest hole to furthest hole. All my equipment is tight and Loctited down correctly. It will shoot 3/4 moa every now and then but its never consistent, even with the same load.

At first I thought it was my scale throwing charges. However, my Brother in law has the exact same rifle with same mods, but he has an AAC brake and a Nightforce, it shoots 3/4 MOA average with quite a few 1/2 MOA groups and one .19 MOA group. We went shooting yesterday to figure out what was going on. We shot each others rifles, our own rifles, and we shot each others hand loads. All groups we shot were 5 shot, all ammo has the exact same case length and COAL. We both used a 10rd AICS mag for each group. Each group was shot in 1-2 minute gaps with a 3-5 second gap between each shot in the group, the groups did not seem to be effected by barrels heating up. However, the two best groups of the day were shot on cold bore. All shots were at exactly 100 yards to the muzzle, in 60 degree weather, zero wind(our range has a 10ft berm on left with thick trees all the way down the range and thick trees all to the right of it all the way down the range. Its about 15 yards wide. So wind is not an issue even on windy days), and at about 30 feet above sea level. We both used a Harris bipod and a Triad rear bag. Here is a little data:


Shooter: Clay(me)

Rifle: Clay's / Kevin's

Load: Lapua brass, Fed 210, 43gr AA4064, 178 Amax: NA / .959, .915 MOA

LC brass, Fed 210, 44 gr Varget, 178 Amax: 1.100 MOA / .972, .698 MOA

LC brass, Fed 210, 43 gr IMR4064, 178 Amax: 1.360 MOA / NA

Fed brass, Fed 210, 42gr Varget, 168 Nosler CC: 1.643 MOA / .421 MOA


Shooter: Kevin (brother in law)

Rifle: Clay's / Kevin's

Load: Lapua brass, Fed 210, 43gr AA4064, 178 Amax: .822. 1.314 MOA / NA

LC brass, Fed 210, 44 gr Varget, 178 Amax: 1.041, 1.519 MOA / 1.746 MOA(called flyer)

LC brass, Fed 210, 43 gr IMR4064, 178 Amax: NA / .793 MOA

Fed brass, Fed 210, 42gr Varget, 168 Nosler CC: .659 MOA / NA

Kevin's rifle average: .929MOA(with called flyer throwing data off) / .793MOA(without called flyer group), greatest deviation between groups of same load(excluding called flyer) .274MOA

Clays rifle average: 1.182MOA with no called flyers, greatest deviation between groups of same load .984MOA

So, that is all the data we collected. I know its not perfect, we should have shot two groups with every Rifle/Shooter combo. However, there is an obvious trend with his rifle shooting all loads sub MOA, with the exception of the called flyer, and mine only shooting 2 sub MOA, no matter who is shooting. I am at a loss as to what is causing my rifle to shoot so poorly compared to an almost identical rifle. Any ideas? Here are some pictures of the groups and a photo of Kevin's .19MOA 5 shot group a few days prior to the test.


This group was shot with Kevin's gun by Kevin a few days prior to the testing. Its a .19MOA 5 shot group at 100, just to show you what his rifle has done...

Click to expand...
After seeing your loads, this is easy for me, I'd drop your charge 1 to 1.5grs. You didn't mention how you seated your bullets, but I seat 308 bullets in Remington rifles anywhere from 2.810" to 2.850".
 
dinc said:
Eyekahn,

When you say your stock is 'pillar bedded' do you mean is has pillars or that the action was in reality bedded to that stock? It's hard to tell from your pictures but it looks like your gun may be 'double grouping' which means it's shifting in the stock. Most guns that are dropped into a stock will be around an MOA. To get seriously under that it's needs individual bedding.

Realistically, both your guns are shooting the same, around an MOA. I seriously doubt you would see any difference in the field.

Your greatest improvement will come from practice.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've always said that was bullshit, I have not changed my stance on that, my SPSS is a .5moa out to 300yds and has shot a 3.1" 4 shot group(5.3" total, 1 shot low) this past August at 600yds with a nonbedded H-S stock. Highly doubt bedding that stock would help bring that low shot up where it belongs, that was probably me.
 
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A few things to check:

Remove your scope and base. Install from base screw first. Wiggle the rear of the base back and forth as you tighten the front screw. You should feel resistance on the screw and lose the ability to wggle the base at the same time. If you feel resistance on the front screw, but can still wiggle base freely, your front screw is putting pressure on the barrel and needs to be shortened.

Remove the bolt shroud/firing pin assembly from the rifle. Reinsert the bolt into the action and turn it into battery. Pull the closed handle all the way to the rear and then push it forward. There should be a noticable amount of forward travel, somewhere in the neighborhood of .010. If not, you may have a bolt nose/barrel shank clearance issue. Unlikely, but possible. Shine a light up into the bolt nose counterbore in the end of the barrel to check for debris.

Check to see that the closed bolt doesn't contact the stock or the front or rear of the relief cut in the action.

Remove the bottom metal and shine a light up around the trigger to verify the trigger is not contacting the stock.

Verify that your barrel is free floated when your bipod is loaded.

Bed the sonofabitch.

Rework loads.
 
Great stuff guys. I seat to 2.816 normally. I tried to go as far as the mags will let me at 2.825 on the 178 Amax. Both lengths produced the same results. I've worked up about 20 different loads for this rifle and found the 3 that do the best are the 3 used in the test. When Kevin was shooting my rifle I got up and grabbed an extra target. He finished his group and I told him to make the rifle safe then get behind it as if he was going to shoot a group and load the bipod as normal. I then ran the paper between the barrel and stock and it never stopped. When doing this we did notice some wear marks on the barrel at the end of the stock. We concluded it was from the pelican case putting pressure on the rifle and making the stock touch the barrel while compressed( I used to keep bipod on rifle while in case, I cut the bottom foam accordingly). It couldn't be from shooting because it does not touch the barrel while loaded, or could we be wrong on this?
 
There are a lot of small things you can do to improve the accuracy of your rifle. And they all add up. I would suggest reading up on the subject. Things like trigger pull, the action screws not touching the pillars, bedding , scope mounting and alignment, the crown, bullet OAL, condition of the bore. Some rifles like to be pressure bedded. Good luck , if the bore is good you can make it a shooter.
 
I would check your loads. Do a new ladder test. You said that you had about 1000 rounds through it... could be some erosion if your loads are hot.

I have two 700's that hate the same loads... one likes 44 gr. Of Varget, the other 44.7. Another one loves 168 gr with 42gr. Of Varget. ... so test the loads again.
 
moboost said:
The problem is not with your rifle - problem is the media (internet, rags, movies ....).

Your rifle shoots better than it supposed to. People pick and choose their groups and post them on internet and it gets to you.
Sprinkle some of the "when I do my part" on top - and every rifle found at the bottom of the lake shoots sub-MOA.

You have a factory rifle that can hit a torso at the limit of the cartridge it is chambered in - what else to ask for? At least you are honest with your rifle and yourself. You can't expand your limits if you don't know where they are at.

If you want a benchrest accuracy - build a benchrest gun, with a benchrest cartridge, in benchrest stock ....
Click to expand...

I could not agree more. It seems too often the concern is ragged hole groups instead of predictability of first round impacts after the shooter has done his part. You have a weapon system that is performing as it should for an off the shelf factory action and barrel. As far as I can tell. Great shooting!
 
my human host said:
A few things to check:

Remove your scope and base. Install from base screw first. Wiggle the rear of the base back and forth as you tighten the front screw. You should feel resistance on the screw and lose the ability to wggle the base at the same time. If you feel resistance on the front screw, but can still wiggle base freely, your front screw is putting pressure on the barrel and needs to be shortened.

Remove the bolt shroud/firing pin assembly from the rifle. Reinsert the bolt into the action and turn it into battery. Pull the closed handle all the way to the rear and then push it forward. There should be a noticable amount of forward travel, somewhere in the neighborhood of .010. If not, you may have a bolt nose/barrel shank clearance issue. Unlikely, but possible. Shine a light up into the bolt nose counterbore in the end of the barrel to check for debris.

Check to see that the closed bolt doesn't contact the stock or the front or rear of the relief cut in the action.

Remove the bottom metal and shine a light up around the trigger to verify the trigger is not contacting the stock.

Verify that your barrel is free floated when your bipod is loaded.

Bed the sonofabitch.

Rework loads.
Click to expand...

So after reading your post I noticed the trigger was leaning on the bottom metal. I couldnt slide a piece of paper between the trigger and BM on both sides. So I re installed and was really careful to get it tight but not let it touch. It still leans very close to the left side of the rifle. I wonder if this was an issue. Also, I noticed some more wear on the barrel at end of the stock and some residue, I'm guessing it's a little rust stain from the metal Rubbing. Its just so weird because it doesn't touch when loaded and shooting...







 
Tough for me to say if your barrel is hitting or not. Generally, I like to have .050 to .060 gap under the barrel at the end of the forearm.

I would be inclined to give the trigger a little more room. I can't swear it's going to solve your issues, but it's worth a shot. It's one of those things that may cause a problem with some guns, and might not with others. It's one of the things I look for when a gun is driving me nuts.

Has the rifle been bedded at all. You don't have to go all out. A small amount of plain old hardware store epoxy placed in a couple key locations can tell you if your bedding is the culprit. I can go into more detail if you like.
 
my human host said:
Tough for me to say if your barrel is hitting or not. Generally, I like to have .050 to .060 gap under the barrel at the end of the forearm.

I would be inclined to give the trigger a little more room. I can't swear it's going to solve your issues, but it's worth a shot. It's one of those things that may cause a problem with some guns, and might not with others. It's one of the things I look for when a gun is driving me nuts.

Has the rifle been bedded at all. You don't have to go all out. A small amount of plain old hardware store epoxy placed in a couple key locations can tell you if your bedding is the culprit. I can go into more detail if you like.
Click to expand...

No bedding has been done. Just the pillars from MCM. I re installed the BM and made sure the trigger doesn't touch. Gonna go back out with some known good loads and shoot again. If it still acts up ill look into bedding. From what I've read, I really like the skim bedding GAP does. I requested a quote and lead time. Bedding this rifle is something I don't feel comfortable doing myself. I'm very hands on and build as much on my rifles as possible, but this seems a little too much for me to handle.
 
308Shooter1911 said:
I bought some FGMM, from Cheaper than Dirt, it said 7.62X51, NOT 308 Winchester, I'll take a pick of the box when I get home. The brass was dirty, and it shot like shit. No where on the box did it say 308 Winchester. The boxes I bought from a local merchant 308 Win where the other boxes said 7.62X51. If you haven't experienced it, then STFU.

Ammo 7.62 NATO Federal Gold Medal Match Sierra Matchking BTHP 175 Grain 20 Round Box 2600 fps Sniper Ammunition

Apparently I'm not the only one that has noticed.

Federal Gold Medal Match 7.62X51 - M14 Forum
Click to expand...


Well I guess you think Federal makes a FGMM shit round in dirty brass and specifically prints the boxes with 7.62x51 instead of .308 and sells it for the same price.
 
shankster.. said:
Well I guess you think Federal makes a FGMM shit round in dirty brass and specifically prints the boxes with 7.62x51 instead of .308 and sells it for the same price.
Click to expand...

Let me see if I can explain this for the people who ride the short bus. The FGMM in the box marked 7.62X51 on the box does not shoot as well as the FGMM in the box marked 308. I have used it in three separate rifles, two of which are premium quality rifles, and it does not shoot as well as the standard GMM. It was not the same price, it was less expensive. So, if you find some on sale and think you are saving any kind of money, you are not, because it does not shoot well.
 
308Shooter1911 said:
Let me see if I can explain this for the people who ride the short bus. The FGMM in the box marked 7.62X51 on the box does not shoot as well as the FGMM in the box marked 308. I have used it in three separate rifles, two of which are premium quality rifles, and it does not shoot as well as the standard GMM. It was not the same price, it was less expensive. So, if you find some on sale and think you are saving any kind of money, you are not, because it does not shoot well.
Click to expand...

So that's a "YES"? You think Federal makes a FGMM shit round in dirty brass and specifically prints the boxes with 7.62x51 instead of .308 and sells it?
 
In the thread you referenced, it also says,

So I emailed federal and got this

Q:What are the differences between the .308 FGMM 175gr and FGMM 175gr marked 7.62x51?
Cases are stamped "FC 11".

Whats different as far as brass, powder, and primer?

A: "There is no differences between these rounds."

Federal

So since this is obviously wrong I called.

I was told the only differences are:
1. annealed brass
2. crimped and sealed primer

They say ballistics are the same.
Click to expand...

Others have also noted identical ballistics and results using either.

Honestly, reading this, I would point to your SureFire MB as the culprit as I have seen this several times. The SF opens up groups, put the suppressor on it and it will close back up, but by itself, it opens them up about what you are seeing.

SF will say the brake is in spec, but I have not heard what that spec is, and most people don't like hearing it. But I assisted in finding out why a certain rifle was not a 1/4 MOA shooter and it was the SF break. Take the break off, the rifle shot under 3/8ths, put the break on, 3/4 MOA, put the SF Can on back to 3/8th...
 
308Shooter1911 said:
I'm simply telling you my experience shooting the two side by side. Take it for what you want.
Click to expand...


I just spoke with a Technical Department representative of the Federal Cartridge Company, 900 Ehlen Drive, Anoka, MN 55303-7503, 1-800-322-2342. He pulled up Federal's Data sheet for their 762x51 cartridge and their .308 cartridge both have a chamber pressure of 60,000 psi, use a SMK bullet, and the load # is GM308M (Gold Medal .308 Match). .308Shooter1911, check your box and see if that is the load # on your boxes.

BTW, telling me to "STFU" and that I "ride the shortbus" wasn't necessary. Particularly since your claim was unfounded in reality.
 
Last edited:
shankster.. said:
I just spoke with a Technical Department representative of the Federal Cartridge Company, 900 Ehlen Drive, Anoka, MN 55303-7503, 1-800-322-2342. He pulled up Federal's Data sheet for their 762x51 cartridge and their .308 cartridge both have a chamber pressure of 60,000 psi, use a SMK bullet, and the load # is GM308M (Gold Medal .308 Match). .308Shooter1911, check your box and see if that is the load # on your boxes.
Click to expand...

I shot the two side by side, and couldn't figure out why the 7.62 would not group as well as the 308. During a search of the net, one user suggested seating the bullets ever slightly deeper in the case to break the sealant. He advised that this made them more consistent. I have not tried this solution though.
 

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Lowlight said:
In the thread you referenced, it also says,



Others have also noted identical ballistics and results using either.

Honestly, reading this, I would point to your SureFire MB as the culprit as I have seen this several times. The SF opens up groups, put the suppressor on it and it will close back up, but by itself, it opens them up about what you are seeing.

SF will say the brake is in spec, but I have not heard what that spec is, and most people don't like hearing it. But I assisted in finding out why a certain rifle was not a 1/4 MOA shooter and it was the SF break. Take the break off, the rifle shot under 3/8ths, put the break on, 3/4 MOA, put the SF Can on back to 3/8th...
Click to expand...

Thanks lowlight I'll see how it groups without it. It would be great if y'all had your dispute via PM and not in my thread. Thanks.
 
to the OP. Seems like you have some mods already to your weapon. Have you considered just cutting your losses on your barrel and replacing it with a quality $300-400 match barrel? From most post I have read and I am sure you have too that a quality match barrel with tight tolerances is a great way to improve accuracy/reliability and repeatability. I understand this post was more for a diagnostic check to see what is wrong, and the barrel may not be the reason, however it seems like you cant go wrong replacing it if it is in your means.
 
Ok so after reading everyone's comments. I inspected the rifle heavily and noticed that the trigger assembly is touching the BM on the left side. I cannot get a piece of paper between the BM and trigger assembly. I loosened the BM screws and get the trigger in straight, then re tightened. Now the safety binds on the BM. So could this really be my issue? I don't get how the trigger barely touching the BM would affect accuracy. I'm now looking at replacing it with the APA BM that has cutouts for Jewell triggers. Also, removed the surefire brake and installed an AAC...
 
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