Agree 100%. Mercedes got what they deserved IMO. Not only did Crybaby not give the position back, he didn't even slow down. Granted, Max made a lunge but Crybaby had to know that and should have covered. Could Max have held position? Doubtful, but we'll never know because Crybaby didn't even drop the throttle. Right or wrong, stewards stayed out of the fray there.They gave Luis a free pass at the turn 7 incident in the first lap of the race were he clearly gained an advantage. By the rules he has to let Max by but didn’t and got away with it. In the last lap the race director had to go by the rules or they wouldn’t have got away with it, they can’t do it twice without ending up in Court.
Looks like everyone got very well what they deserve to me.
1) Mercedes now has to go full appeal I think; but yes, Karma is a bitch. I'd forgotten about the Hungary incident in detail where Bitchass (hopefully to return to Bottas with Alfa) slammed into Lando and took out both RBR's in the process (except they got Max's car running again albeit badly damaged).On that first lap I was quite displeased and thought "well, the fix is in for Hamilton". I couldn't believe the stewards ruled no investigation necessary. Karma is a bitch and I am happy to see Max take his first championship. 10 laps to go and it was Hamilitons race until the safety car. I am wondering how much Hamilton was bitching about being left out on old tires when he could have pitted.
I was a little disappointed to see Kimi's career end so quietly with no fanfare. I didn't expect him to score points, but thought F1 would have had some kind of look back and review of his career after the race. Maybe a gold watch and a kick in the ass on the way out the door.
Sigh. Now the long wait until the start of next season. I will be very, very curious to see if the rule changes, especially the turbulent air behind the cars being reduced have any real effect on the constructor standings. Merc always seemed to struggle more if not in clean air so this may just end up helping them become even more dominant. Has anyone heard about the ICE system for Redbull? With Honda withdrawing I wasn't sure if RB were using a new platform or licensing the existing honda tech for their cars for 22.
Yes, it's ashamed RBR didn't give Max a competitive car till now. Had he had the Merc, even against Crybaby he's already 3-4x world champ.I think Russell will show that it was the car and not Hamilton that made them so dominant over the last few years. Bottas is a decent driver, but when Russell was driving the Merc he showed serious skill. the combo of Hamilton/Russell will be very, very dominant next year. RB will have to get the teammate into play to help Max combat that.
I too agree that Checo needs to step it up or he will be swapped for another driver. I loved seeing him hold up Hamilton long enough to get Max back within striking range. Driver of the day for sure. I wasn't expecting him to tangle with Hamilton for as long as he did. He definitely put it all out there on those late lunges and the battle with Hamilton. I'm not sure if RB can pull any driver close to the caliber of Max. That kid has serious talent and it sucked to watch him take this long to earn his first championship.
It will be curious to see if Ferrari can step it up and challenge the top two next year. They have the drivers, and the car is developing nicely. They showed spurts of performance and speed this year, but it was far to inconsistent.
I would agree if those talented driver performed the same every race, but that's not the case. Many of those talented drivers have the same car every race and just can't perform consistently like the guys at the top. Not saying they should be at the top, but they should be consistent at where they are. Just to be funny, at least Haas drivers are consistentThere are several talented drivers that have been incapable of showing their potential due to the vast differences in car performance.
The changes are supposed to address that somewhat, but I doubt it will even out the playing field, so to speak.
I kept being told by my GF it's not over...it's not over. I kept replying..."It's over." Then Checo did great....then "it's over again." Followed by "never give up hope" and "Karma...karma is a bitch." Then that crash. to which I was like...hmmm, to pit or not. THat would have been very interesting with Max on newer hard tires; but I think in that scenario Crybaby would have won. I also think Max would have easily disposed of the back markers on those soft tires. May have gone down to final two turns; but he would have won.I had given hope for Max and was walking out to get some things done and the wife started yelling about the crash. Damned great finish!!
Ohh yeah, Fuck Hamilton!!
Best finish of the yearI kept being told by my GF it's not over...it's not over. I kept replying..."It's over." Then Checo did great....then "it's over again." Followed by "never give up hope" and "Karma...karma is a bitch." Then that crash. to which I was like...hmmm, to pit or not. THat would have been very interesting with Max on newer hard tires; but I think in that scenario Crybaby would have won. I also think Max would have easily disposed of the back markers on those soft tires. May have gone down to final two turns; but he would have won.
For me, though I dislike Hamilton immensely; I absolutely abhor Toto Wolf. Pompous, quick to anger and accusation, and from what I can tell a genuine asshole.
The irony is that Toto owns (or did) part of Williams. Hahahah..Karma baby.A great end to a good season, who doesn’t love some controversy?! Max exploited an opportunity and won, that’s racing. Toto sounding like a bitch on the net “no no no Mikey….” Haha that has me laughing.
Maybe Mick battling Latifi was planned and the crash prevented the 8th championship?
Mercedes has won the constructors championship 8 years in a row now. I look forward to the new 2022 cars and I hope it’s a lot more competitive. Its about time Ferrari takes their rightful spot on top, followed by McLaren then Aston Martin.
I couldn't stand Schumacher either. Nor Senna as I was and always will be a Prost fan. Interesting thing on Prost on the F-1 channel (formula1.com) talking about championships and he acknowledge he was close to being 7x WDC. Though, I must say even though it's a different era, I think I'm starting to like Max better. I like the aggressive driving now toned down and smart - he seems to have the perfect combo of Senna + Prost. He's aggressive like Senna and as smooth if not more-so than Prost. I have to admit, I think I underappreciate Alonso though.I just seem to recall it being more entertaining when there was more than just one or two teams in with a chance of a win.
Looking back at historical results, however, it seems there has always been periods of dominance by one team or another.
So I guess I'm just racist. Then again, I disliked Shui.
Your right. If Aston Martin are serious and they seem to be with all of the investing and picking up people from other teams - they need to get Lance out of that seat. He will not take them to the next level. But yeah, daddy has the money and daddy’s boy will drive.The irony is that Toto owns (or did) part of Williams. Hahahah..Karma baby.
I'm perfectly happy where Ferrari and McLaren stand now. I was so sick of Ferrari in the "oughts" I stopped watching F-1 for 5-6 years. There is no Aston Martin IMO...just Lance Stroll's dad trying to build something for his boy.
It is unfortunate. I often wonder how many genuinely talented drivers get passed up for those that have financial backing? It’s been going on for a looooong time.Unfortunately, the money a driver can bring with them - in some shape or form - dictates who drives for several teams. That's the only reason haz-a-spin is driving.
I'll bite. From right to left. Stirling Moss, Graham Hill and Jim Clark? I wasn't really sure on Clark as John Surtees was another gentleman, but I believe he had lighter hair and less of it.Another place, another time, dangerous beyond belief, yet the men were gentleman and parhaps a class that was never better
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You win the prize though I did intend for it to be a contest. This was borrowed from Jim Clarks page.I'll bite. From right to left. Stirling Moss, Graham Hill and Jim Clark? I wasn't really sure on Clark as John Surtees was another gentleman, but I believe he had lighter hair and less of it.
I can see where Merc and Hamilton are coming from. The FIA race stewards have fucked up the rules on almost every race so why should this one be different. They wanted to end the season racing and not under a yellow flag, I get that, buy they violated their own rules.Funny thing. I frequent another webpage on sailing. They are liberal enough that i often have to shut down the computer and look away. Still, they tolerate this child of the solid south.
They are all going ballistic over the finish of the race where Hamilton was not guaranteed his victory. Some even claim to like Max but think hamilton was robbed. Quite the difference here. Peoples point of view are so different.
My opinion about next year‘s price cap. Its not the money, its the cars, too dependent on performance enhancements that make them uncompetitive with each other. Simplify the cars, in both aero and power plant. The costs will come way down the the racing will go way up. Again, my opinion, your mileage may vary.
I couldn't stand Schumacher either. Nor Senna as I was and always will be a Prost fan...
LOL. I couldn't have said it better myself sir!!!! I mean, it really came down to strategy and in this case, being behind actually helped. Yes, he could have taken the tires at VSC. He also was slowed down enough by Checo to not have enough time to pit during real safety car. So, strategically they lost by playing not to lose. It was a fantastic season. I think I missed only one race due to travel and my forgetting to record.You, sir, are in lockstep with my own thoughts. I was a HUGE Prost fan, and never liked Senna or Schumacher. Yes, I acknowledge their talent, but just never liked their "style". Prost was one of those drivers who personafied the "slow is smooth - smooth is fast" mantra. He never looked like he was going very fast. Always smooth and in total control. But he obviously WAS fast, as his race wins and championships prove. He wasn't perfect, but he was close to it!
Back in that era, there were several seasons where two, three, or even four drivers had a shot at the title right up till the last race. I long for the return of that situation. It's great fun to have the title come down to the last race, and each year I hope for that to occur. This year it did! Very exciting stuff.
As for the race, there were a few "what ifs" that would have changed everything. The first being, what if Max got a good start and was leading the first lap. That mess with Hammie wouldn't have happened and there would have been no controversy at that point. I think Hammie would have ultimately took the lead as Max's soft tires gave up, but it would have been a different race. Second, what if Hammie would have took fresh tires during the first VSC period. It sounded like he wanted to, but the team decided against it. Had they done it, it would have changed the track position and changed the race.
The last and biggest "what if" is, what if they'd have thrown the red flag right away when Latifi crashed. All the cars would have been able to change tires (a rule I don't agree with, but it is what it is) so Hammie and Max would have both been on fresh tires. And in the process of coming back to racing they would have been able to properly sort the backmarkers, avoiding the last bit of controversy and giving us a proper race with several laps to go and all things being mostly equal. In this situation I think Max very well would have still won, but it would have been a much "cleaner" win, without all the hand-wringing and shouting.
Anyway, it is what it is, and I'm happy Max won. I really hope the scales start to tip back to a more even field next year, with maybe 4 or 5 drivers in with a shout to win races, and the title, over the course of the year. Hopefully the new cars will help in that regard, George will give Hammie some run for his money within the team, McLaren and Ferrari will continue to improve so that they can become a more regular threat. That's a lot to ask for, but hey, I can dream, can't I??
then that gets into the "what all can you fix" shit show that we had too. Actually, I think it's ok to do that. Nothing's preventing the other teams from changing tires, fixing damage; but they always pick on one or two teams for doing that.A new rule requiring a red flag restart for any Safety car if 5 or less laps remain in a race may be beneficial. Do you then extend that to a virtual safety car? I do agree that principals should not be communicating directly to the RD.
The biggest rub of 2021 was that rules were not consistently enforced. If they can't all be held to the same standard then why have them?
There were multiple occurrences of rules being interpreted one way for Hamilton and anther way for Verstappen throughout the season. Most of the time in favor of Hamilton. How does that get addressed? At the end of the race the rules were interpreted in favor of Verstappen, but it was at the most critical time with the championship on the line. It can be argued that if the rules were enforced throughout the season fairly that Hamilton would not have been neck and neck in points with Verstappen going into the final race and likely even a P1 finish would have been insufficient to claim the championship as long as Verstappen placed P2 or P3.
Very true. Changing tires and swapping wings morphs into a gray area of repairs very quickly depending on how long the red flag is out for. Hell, we saw the complaints about brake coolers being placed on the track surface and drying out the conditions to create unfair advantage two years ago to start a race. Was Riccardo's car and no action was taken iirc.then that gets into the "what all can you fix" shit show that we had too. Actually, I think it's ok to do that. Nothing's preventing the other teams from changing tires, fixing damage; but they always pick on one or two teams for doing that.
I'll go back to what I've said previously. But, Mercedes had every single opportunity to pit that Max had. There is always a chance at a crash. Personally, I think Max could have still won with the new tires passing the back markers. It'd have gone to the very last turn though. Also, had RBR not pitted and they cleared those cars out of the way, Max most likely could have then passed Hamilton or they may have touched and crashed out....either way Max wins. Max was playing to win when he was right along Hamilton on the restart...just as he'd have been on the newer than Hamilton hard tires. The only scenario I see that Max doesn't win is that they don't clear out the cars and he's on the newer hard tires he had previous to the pit stop.Okay, since Mercedes finally decided to drop their appeal of the ruling in their protest, I wanted to comment on the ending to the race and get your thoughts. I know I’m in the minority here as I’m not a huge Verstappen fan. I don’t have anything against him, per se, but I do think he is sometimes needlessly aggressive on track and potentially dangerous. Sometimes he is in the right and sometimes I think he should yield and “live to fight another day”. That being said, I am not a race car driver of any kind and some of his moves may be perfectly legit…..these are just the musings of an amateur F1 fan.
1. Horner and Wolff (or anyone for a race team for that matter) having direct contact with the Race Director (RD) during the last 10 or so laps of a race is BS. If you want to bring something up on lap 25, I get it, but at the end of the race IF things are heating up, leave the man alone. F1 should, and likely will, put an end to that. The RD has his hands full and he doesn’t need the distraction.
2. The flip-flop by the RD on “lapped cars are staying in position until the restart”, then “okay, we will only let the back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen thru to unlap themselves” is utter BS. This literally flip-flopped the race and gave the win to the P2 car. Had Latifi not crashed, Hamilton would have cruised to a victory. Verstappen little to no chance Before the crash. The crash gave Verstappen an opportunity to pit for fresh soft tires (as most Safety cars do). The pit stop couldn’t “hurt” him, so why not try for it? I would have done the same thing, as would Hamilton if he were in Verstappen’s position. Had the RD stood by his first decision of NOT letting the lapped cars through, Hamilton would have likely won. If the RD had stuck to his initial position, the lapped cars would have received blue flags immediately on the restart and Verstappen would have breezed past them, however Hamilton LIKELY would have been too far ahead after the restart, and the blue flag passing, for Verstappen to overtake him. This would have been the EXACT same result as if the crash would have never happened. Clearing that traffic gave Verstappen an overwhelming advantage that: A) gave him fresh, sticky tires to mount a challenge and B) put him right on Hamilton’s rear wing for the restart. I’m not saying the RD made the wrong call, I’m just saying that he should have never had to make that call…..there should be some kind of rule that addresses a similar/identical situation…..so that neither driver is given an advantage over the other.
3. I hope that this race result causes F1 to overhaul their rules regarding such an instance. I wonder if the best solution wouldn’t be to “Red Flag” the race, have everyone return to the pit lane and do a restart with 5 laps to go or whatever. This way, no cars get and unfair advantage, everyone gets fresh tires, everyone gets a restart, AND you can move the lapped cars around as they queue for the pit lane to get them out of the leaders’ way.
I will always view this race/championship with an asterisk. I get why people don’t like Hamilton. His antics can be irritating, to say the least. Everyone (except for Hamilton fans) gets tired of the same old person winning every year. However, that doesn’t mean he isn’t deserving if he wins. Verstappen (or whoever other than Hamilton) winning a world championship is good for the sport…..no doubt about it. We want to see competition. We had a great battle this year and I think it was good for F1. The problem was, the ending was not just and has a cloud over it (at least in my opinion). I know there are arguments on Both sides about the rules being applied correctly or not being applied correctly, but there should be no doubt that the outcome of the race was altered by the RD’s decision…..and I don’t perceive that as fair.
Ask yourself this, and be honest to yourself: would you happily accept Hamilton winning the championship if Verstappen was leading (on old hard tires) and Hamilton got the free pitstop, fresh soft tires, all traffic moved out of the way between him and Verstappen, and a restart with 1 lap to go? I have a feeling I know the answer to that.
I’m all for them racing. I’m all for them duking it out and that the best man/team/car wins. What I don’t like is a decision being made by a race director that decides the winner of any race, but especially the world championship.
Seems like a new “red flag” rule, similar to what I listed above, to equalize the playing field would be the only ”fair” (if that’s the best word to use) way to have an honest race.
I’d love to hear your guys’ thoughts as well. Maybe I’m wrong, but I would assume that most people would want a given race, and especially the championship to be as fair as possible.
Me too!!!Well, this thread will die down and be quiet until next season. Here is to hoping RB comes out strong and sticks it to Mercedes. Hell, even having a third constructor in a close race for the constructors cup would be a great improvement. I will be very interested to see how well Russell does driving in the Mercedes and to see if Norris keeps improving at Mclaren.
I agree. A close, competitive season would be very welcome. Hope Russell gives Hammie a run for his money, and hope both Red Bulls are right in there. And if McLaren could keep stepping up, it could be really interesting!Well, this thread will die down and be quiet until next season. Here is to hoping RB comes out strong and sticks it to Mercedes. Hell, even having a third constructor in a close race for the constructors cup would be a great improvement. I will be very interested to see how well Russell does driving in the Mercedes and to see if Norris keeps improving at Mclaren.
My thoughts..
I note how any "punishment" for crybaby boycotting the awards has been quietly brushed aside.
I have to believe Russel will beat HAM at his own game, if he's truly given an equal footing. MSC was truly great but he would not have his record without that car during that period, or if another great driver was given the 2nd seat.
New cars are ugly but we'll get used to them.
I don't hold out much hope for regulation changes helping the "racing". The current system of throwing all the money at the top performing teams means they will stay the top performing teams.
Agreed, MSC was an incredible talent. Geez…look what he did in a pos Jordan for his first race as an F1 driver. Had the clutch not failed who knows how he would’ve faired in that race.beg to differ on MSC
separating his driving skills he was one of the best development drivers ever
every car he drove got better every year, the cars performance never took a step back
that is something that many drivers lack, Hamilton has that skill as well..vettel doesnt which is why after newey left vettel is mid pack at best