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As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

Side note, really quick before I run,

With the "Ballistic Coefficient Muzzle Velocity Factor" - BCVF

It's easy....BC x FPS divided by 1000.

If we used this, and I think it can work really well, but with these values:

1.59/- for the Limited Class

1.60/+ for the Open Class

I think it accomplishes what I want too... it still have the MV component plus the BC, which is easy to figure.

Steve definitely may have hit on something the more i work out the numbers.
 
AtOne and KevinD explained the distance and unique target factoring system to me, and it seems like a good idea. Along this line of thinking, clubs that have stages requiring more position changes, or shooting from more difficult positions should receive some sort of factoring for this. However all this factoring can get complicated, and may keep some groups from wanting to mess with all the math and factoring.

Perhaps a simple solution to all the factoring is for the group to use a number of "standards" stages where the targets are all of specific sizes, placed at specific distances, and shot from specific positions. Most clubs have 10" or 12" round targets they could use for the "standards" stages. How shooters fare on these standards stages could be used to move people up or down in rankings. Then, clubs would be free to shoot whatever other types of stages they want for the remainder of their match without having to deal with various position, unique target distance, or other "factors". This would also help the organization keep rules to a minimum.

I agree with the postings about the 308 being the most commonly issued caliber, and that it is "behind the times", and as such is at a disadvantage. Historically, competition shooters have brought equipment advances a long way. It is the same thing for motor sports where advances found in competition eventually find their way into the production lines.

Perhaps if there was a civilian 308 only division, it could be used for new shooters who didn't know to buy a 6mm or 6.5mm rifle, and it could become known as the "traditionalist" division. I think it is a given that those people who are able to do well with a 308, would most likely do even better with a well built 6mm or 6.5mm.
 
Lowlight said:
Heck I remember when the AZ crew couldn't find the Top 20 with a seeing eye dog, along comes the PRS and now their local match is a "National Match" because guys came from TX to shoot it... Big deal... that happens every month in some places. It's not to say you haven't improved your competitions, you absolutely have, and I have supported them. But it was not that long ago, YOU ALL were the new Kids on the block.
Click to expand...

I don't get it man. What are you trying to do exactly? You open up with something to the effect of "This is what I think it should be, now please give me feed back so that we can better things." I was inspired.....hell yeah, I will help!

Then, people start giving you the requested feed back. You throw a tissy when you get any quality feed back at all and say things like:
"being a dick"
"cry baby emotional bull shit"
"log off, buzz off and don't come back if you don't like it"
"Tom Hanks"......I really didn't get that one, but you really liked it because you used it twice.
"Get away from the nuclear power power plant"
"genius"
"are you Fucking Shitting me"
"elitist tool"

Then to make it even better, a day later, you use the good information given to you and act like it randomly fell out of the sky even though you insulted the very person who provided it. Do you know who these people are? Because I do. Most of them are people who are extremely involved in bettering the region they are at if not the regions match directors. Your vendetta against the PRS is ultimately hurting the very people you will need to help do anything, the Match Directors.

Read what you posted above. How excited do you think the AZ guys will be to help you do anything after calling something they put 6 months plus of work into every year being called a local shoot? I know I spent months and months of time and a ton of my own (yeah, we don't do this for profit) money into the VPRC only to have you let me know how pitiful it was.

So look at what I just said, and before you ban me realize that WE are trying to help you.

Ty
 
His tone... really? After Franks bullshit in this thread what you had to comment on was Ty's tone! LMFAO

Great video selection btw!
 
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I guess subtle doesn't work... My point was that fire's tone wasn't productive. I'm trying to divert the train back on the tracks instead of derail it all together. There are some ideas here that have merit, but only if we can put on our big boy pants and work through them. If this is the first time Frank said something derogatory to you, feel privileged, and try not to get butt hurt over it. Frank speaks his mind whether you want to know what he's thinking or not. I'm actually kinda shocked at how thin skinned some people are after being here a while.
 
I am not sweating him he started it by being butt hurt over the match rating claiming the LV local match with s few out of state shooters deserved to be rated higher. I never mentioned them he started the beef

We'll last night I worked with a guy on the rating system who shot their match and came up with a potential system that was like a 10 point metric. The LV was like 250 points below a match like the NorCal one. Truth hurts their feelings my 10 vs 7 points was valid and they didn't like it.

They started it and I just responded. If the AZ crew wants to hold it against me, so be it. Clearly everyone else including me moved beyond and he can't.
 
You know shit would work "mo betta" with everyone trying to pull in the same direction on this one. =)

I am personal friends with the AZ/LV guys and understand where they are coming from. Trust me, I get my panties wadded up when someone dings NorCal or our events. It's natural.

The scoring system Frank is talking about was something I whipped up while getting some dinner in me.

It is not an exact science, nor is it meant to be. It is just to give MDs and competitors an ROUGH idea of where things are at.

It takes into account possible round count, number of competitors, and a majority of the components within each COF.

Before panties get wadded up, this isn't to say your match is good, bad or other wise. It is just a rough system to compare events.

Like I posted before, the LV and AZ crew puts on awesome events and have great venues. The LV crew are the new guys on the block, but the jedi force is strong in those guys. They have passion and the drive to take their events to the next level. We sometimes forget that its the people that make an event great, and they have the people.
 
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Okay, let’s please not let this turn into the PRS thread from 2 years ago.

I like this concept and think it should move forward. Here are my opinions, take them how you want, but they are observed from someone who has RO’d and have shot in matches.
Speed is what changes the balance of power:
I see the thinking behind this but IMO I don’t think this is the issue that will divide the “open class” from the “limited”. Equipment is equipment and you use it to your best ability. I think we all know when the shooting bug gets a strong hold on you the next thing you do is watch what others are using and then look to upgrade. In a match I think what determines the difference between the two classes is twofold, stage timeframe and stage difficulty. Both can be used concurrently or independently to differentiate classes.
Scoring will be based off ..... and the distance shot:
I shot a large match a few years ago that went to 1k, I can tell you that that match was very easy compared to many shorter range matches/stages that have kicked my ass because the timeframe was shorter or there was a position or prop that just kicks your ass. Maybe differentiating this off of average stage timeframe or prone vs. Positional % would be better suited? Most comps I have shot over the past 2 years have very little prone compared to props/positions.
Point system:
I don’t think it is a bad idea but I think it could be improved. At a local level for classification what happens if a certain area of the country has 50 shooters every match at the club level (thinking NorCal) compared to say AZ who may have 15 shooters when it’s 120 degrees outside. Are the 15 shooters less deserving of points compared to the 50? What about people in the NE who don’t get to shoot monthly matches? Maybe I took this the wrong way or did you mean this for only larger matches?
Train up:
I think I saw somewhere where you dropped it but many who travel can’t get an extra day or two (or more $$) to do train ups.

Hopefully this helps spur positive debate. AZLRPRS has always tried to put on the best match possible given our limitation of 705 yards, all I can say is that we like to host people with great attitudes and manageable egos :), <v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 class=inlineimg title="Stick Out Tongue" alt="" border="0" src="http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/images/smilies/tongue.png" smilieid="5" stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" v:shapetype o<><V:p</V:pno offense taken.<O:p</O:p</v:shapetype>
 
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I also think it would be awesome if you created an area for this league on SH and then had sub sections for matches, stage designs, how too build props etc..
 
mattsnuked said:
I also think it would be awesome if you created an area for this league on SH and then had sub sections for matches, stage designs, how too build props etc..
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I also think this is a good idea, strictly speaking from a newbie's perspective.
 
Is the goal to get new people into the sport or to get that 1 in 100 guy that has all of the necessary gear and skill to be a top competitor from the get go to actually show up?

Maybe I am way off base here, but it seems to me that if you want to grow any sport you have to grow it from the bottom up. It won't work trying to grow a massive elite top tier if there is no support for it outside that group. Just kind of ends up being the same guys always competing against each other.

The biggest problem I have always seen with F class shooting (aside from just laying prone and punching paper) is that you either show up with a well equipped 223 or 308 or you get thrown in with super high dollar custom rifles, and either way you are usually competing against guys that are able to spend a lot of time at the range. That can be very intimidating for a person that probably doesn't currently have a competition rifle, and isn't sure they want to invest the time and money to not even be competitive.

I have always thought there should be some kind of sporting class for guys with hunting type rifles, and I think a practical/tactical match course of fire would be the ultimate blueprint for that to happen. With a class for sporting rifles only you would open the door for a lot more people to get their feet wet, and really find out if this is something they think they would enjoy. Hell I can invision parents getting their kids into something like this since they wouldn't have to spend a ton of money on tactical rifle and all of the crazy gear to go with it, and if you can get kids interested you guaranty the sport to grow.

Maybe I am missing a lot and I am way off base, and if I am I do apologize for wasting your time.
 
Interesting numbers.

AZ: 691
NorCal: 680.5
LV: 485.5

Looking at these numbers people would think OH well LV is blah blah blah. Well if you take into account they didn't run competitors to their full capacity or a full day of shooting like AZ and Norcal, their event is right in line. When I say full day, I mean that a lot of events shoot from like 8 to 4pm. We were done around 1pm in LV, which was VERY nice to be honest. It gave all of us some time to have a few coldies and see the town a lil.

That 485.5 score would be 600 easily if they ran the 60 shooters with a few more COFs thrown in.

There has been talk about AZ this and AZ that...well they scored higher than TBRC. Where AZ lacks in distance, they make up in for cool props, bigger target packages, more movement, more transitions, and a harder COF.

I think the system is pretty decent because having shot AZ, I can tell you that their match is harder than TBRC to shoot. Typical winner of TBRC is in the mid to high 70% arena. I think it is safe to say that the winner of TPRC is not shooting that high of a % to win.

Just something I am playing with.
 
I dont see how you do this without first nailing down the SLOPE or rating system for a match
Regardless of how event is run or even uses less stages than intended, the COF shot should have a standard rating system based on factors that are tangible
distance, shots fired, wind etc can be used to label COF difficulty rating
Where you finish would be irrelevant to a TRL shooter, your final score would be match score/COF rating = TRL points

The COF rating would have zero impact on match, its a number and only applies to those in TRL.
COF rating does NOT mean you put on a bad match, its just a number assigned to allow TRL shooters to compete while shooting different venues on even footing. Like they all had shot same match

This is my understanding of thread thus far, Not seeing what all the ass ache is about
I could shoot a match and MD and other shooters would not even know i was a TRL shooter unless i stated such. It has zero effect on match
But perhaps i missed summit?
Why would a MD even need to be aware of TRL COF rating?
TRL member could report COF and his score to TRL scorers and they would reply with shooters earned TRL points

Pert simple, did i miss summit?
 
Jedi,

There has always been a debate of how events should be rated. The facts are not all are created equal. Some are great, most are good, and then you have a few that need a lil TLC.


Before you nail down the slope, you need to have an idea of what the high, low, and average is.

Like I said, it's something I whipped up and am playing with, have like 2 hours into it so it's not perfection nor will it ever be perfect.
 
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smax said:
Is the goal to get new people into the sport or to get that 1 in 100 guy that has all of the necessary gear and skill to be a top competitor from the get go to actually show up?

Maybe I am way off base here, but it seems to me that if you want to grow any sport you have to grow it from the bottom up. It won't work trying to grow a massive elite top tier if there is no support for it outside that group. Just kind of ends up being the same guys always competing against each other.

The biggest problem I have always seen with F class shooting (aside from just laying prone and punching paper) is that you either show up with a well equipped 223 or 308 or you get thrown in with super high dollar custom rifles, and either way you are usually competing against guys that are able to spend a lot of time at the range. That can be very intimidating for a person that probably doesn't currently have a competition rifle, and isn't sure they want to invest the time and money to not even be competitive.

I have always thought there should be some kind of sporting class for guys with hunting type rifles, and I think a practical/tactical match course of fire would be the ultimate blueprint for that to happen. With a class for sporting rifles only you would open the door for a lot more people to get their feet wet, and really find out if this is something they think they would enjoy. Hell I can invision parents getting their kids into something like this since they wouldn't have to spend a ton of money on tactical rifle and all of the crazy gear to go with it, and if you can get kids interested you guaranty the sport to grow.

Maybe I am missing a lot and I am way off base, and if I am I do apologize for wasting your time.
Click to expand...
What if each weapon and ammo used for that stage had to be dunked an dusted prior to shooting. If it's going to be labeled as a Tactical match, run it as close to real world as can be. Some stages could be none shooting but high scoring, others stages could require target interdiction with special ammo.
Just and old guy musing, the voices are saying I need to take my meds now.
 
I'm fairly new to the sport of Precision Rifle, about 4 years.

I'm not new to competitive shooting spending over 20 years shooting a shotgun at the highest level.

One part of Precision Rifle that I TRULY enjoy is the fact that there is NO CLASSES or slopes for matches or any of the bullshit that comes with these things. You go to a rifle match and the best shooter wins. The guy who shot second best comes in second, etc. Anyone can enter (with caveat) and compete. Where they finish is where they finish. No grading on a curve and, lastly and my most favorite thing, there's no whining. Everyone competes on even ground.

First of all, the local club match is the venue with which to grow the sport. It's where I started and all Newbies should start. You need to gain experience and this is the best place to do so.
Secondly, how on earth can the sport grow when the normal rifle match can only handle about 60 shooters? A huge shoot is 100 + shooters. The competitions fill up in a split second when applications are accepted at the strike of the clock.

When you introduce methods to sort people into classes it just opens up Pandora's box of Whining and Complaining from the pussies who think they got screwed because something wasn't "fair". I'd hate to see the sport go down the road where everyone thinks they deserve a "trophy" for showing up.

Please consider this if you haven't yet.
 
The one comment I have is that I don't like the idea of train ups adding to points. That's the equivalent of buying points IMO. Sorry if this had already been said and also the short reply and i can expand later but I'm typing from 30,000 ft and we are coming in for a landing

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
being intimidated by the top shooters? you need to meet these people. they are super nice! they'll give you wind calls and loan you bags or mags or whatever you need.
my first shots over 200 yards were at the 2010 Rifles Only Bash and everyone bent over backward to make sure I was having a good time--I didn't even have a scope until Frank loaned me a 10x super sniper.

equipment races are good for the shooting community and will happen regardless. Because of the restrictions set by the PRS, the 6mm Creedmoor and 6.5 SAUM were developed and are pretty fucking cool. Why would you want to stagnate equipment and neat shit like that? any of the top shooters with 308 are still going to beat the middle pack guys with the most hot rod cartridges they can field. 6 and 6.5 mm only give you a crutch. Last time I checked, its also the same price to build a 6 or 6.5 as a 308, so what's the deal?

I hope setting up a another league will get more folks out in the field, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the people that want to shoot are already shooting comps. look at SH cup-- open registration how many people showed up? People either dont have enough time or money, or are just too worried about failure.
 
flounderv2 said:
The one comment I have is that I don't like the idea of train ups adding to points. That's the equivalent of buying points IMO. Sorry if this had already been said and also the short reply and i can expand later but I'm typing from 30,000 ft and we are coming in for a landing

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

This is actually documented to have happened???

If so, holyshitbro, it's way worse than I thought.

--Fargo007
 
fargo007 said:
This is actually documented to have happened???

If so, holyshitbro, it's way worse than I thought.

--Fargo007
Click to expand...

Its one of the things LowLight proposed for this series he's creating, but it doesn't appear people are for it. I'm guessing mainly because its hard enough to to get time off and travel as well as expense.


It is not a PRS thing.
 
Just an FYI as everyone seems to keep missing this.

The rank and classification has zero effect on the match we all shoot the same thing it's only for recognition.

You people are completely lying to yourself and everyone else if you think equipment has no effect on the outcome. We are only talking a speed limit / power factor to help divide it for recognition. Everyone shoots the same thing at the same time
 
Lowlight,
I really like your plan of guidelines not rules. I see it as the ONLY way to get around so many different facilities/geography/weather/range budgets/MD's etc etc

I do not like the idea of trying to limit the "gear race"- from a business standpoint I would wager strong that the sport would grow faster if there are more wallets open and looking for the next thing to buy-beneficial or not. For example, yoga didn't become so popular in our culture until you could buy into your level of desired association. I think Ford even offers an F150 Downward Dog Edition?, America, F Yeah!!

I could also see a "rimfire" division that would allow somewhat equal participation for those with smaller range luxuries/entry level expense + youth -and a place to exercise our expensive rimfires as well. It would easily fit within your proposed guidelines me thinks?
 
You have to realize the number of people who truly feel they bought great stuff only to find out they are not even in the right zip code. It' doesn't change the match one bit. Just how you get recognized in the end.
 
dave deloach said:
What if each weapon and ammo used for that stage had to be dunked an dusted prior to shooting. If it's going to be labeled as a Tactical match, run it as close to real world as can be. Some stages could be none shooting but high scoring, others stages could require target interdiction with special ammo.
Just and old guy musing, the voices are saying I need to take my meds now.
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Wouldn't ever dirty a weapon on purpose just for the sake of it "being real world." (Or maybe I completely misunderstood). Part of being an operator is keeping your system clean and ready to go, any down time is prioritized squaring away weapon, gear self. Although.... Running and gunning during these comps where competitors are crawling, jumping, skull dragging, etc between stages it's part of the overall event to protect your gear either carrying it in hand or pack. If your weapon malfunctions during a timed stage then you just plane forfeit that stage of fire for not keeping you rig operational - harsh yes, but if you are going for real world, that's not as harsh as hearing the "click."

-CW
Marksmanship Training Center
 
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oinco said:
I could also see a "rimfire" division that would allow somewhat equal participation for those with smaller range luxuries/entry level expense + youth -and a place to exercise our expensive rimfires as well. It would easily fit within your proposed guidelines me thinks?
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YES YES YES!!! At MTC we run our 5 stage Small Bore Sniper matches which simulate all areas of tactical long range precision rifle - this is great SUPLIMIENTAL training and in-between High Power events. Excellent quality training at a fraction of the cost and fun as hell.

How does this fit in here? Maybe as a half points awarded, or even as a rimfire division as OINCO stated.

-CW
Marksmanship Training Center
 
Frank, I'll only offer a word of encouragement and some perspective. I think your absolutlely on the right track with your Match-in-a-Box approach. It's a great idea. I respect George and the rest for their skill, but I really could care less about how they perform in a PRS match. I WOULD be interested in how my buddies perform, though. I joined this site when there were less than 5000 members, and the social aspect and shared interest is what has made it so successful. Capitalize on that.

- Make it accessible by keeping the matches local but tying in SHC as the "Super Bowl."
- Build this thing from the ground up and rely on the shared, collective input from everyones' experiences to improve on the model.
- Leverage the social aspect of this site to allow everyone to maximize the fun. Hell, look at how successful Smack the Smiley is. I have a blast, and I've never even met a single competitor.

If people are having fun they'll keep coming back, and they'll bring their friends. That's how you grow the sport. Best of luck and let me know if I can help.
 
LL, good stuff. I like where this is heading and the collaboration.

When I want to compare the difficulty of one match to the next, I look at the % of total points the winner got. Makes it easy to translate between point systems. Not sure yet how I would incorporate that into a COF rating system. Maybe: 100 - winners point %, should make most matches worth 25 to 50pts or so.
 
One part of Precision Rifle that I TRULY enjoy is the fact that there is NO CLASSES or slopes for matches or any of the bullshit that comes with these things
Click to expand...

The rank and classification has zero effect on the match we all shoot the same thing it's only for recognition.
Click to expand...

So, on the day of the match its just shooting. Correct? Local matches that are "shoot what you bring" and are scored as such then the results are passed on to Frank.
All the statistical analysis is done on your end?
 
epaultmbt said:
I love competitive shooting, and I don't understand why long range shooting sports must keep trying to re-invent the wheel.

Scoring software:
https://www.practiscore.com

Successful series:
3-Gun Nation > Home
Welcome to USPSA.org - Home of the United States Practical Shooting Association

Make it look like these.

Can we please score time plus penalties?

Waste of key strokes.

See you guys at Bushnell Brawl.
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This would not work.

Those two sports are incompatible on their face. Anything done in the real world with a precision rifle is based on patience and accuracy.

It's also one shooter at a time. Which is why the stages are shot in 30-45 seconds. It doesn't work out time-motion-wise with 30 shooters and a round count of 50-60 which is what is required even at a local match to make it worth the trip.

With a bolt gun, many stages the time doesn't matter at all. Like a mover that runs at a fixed rate, a stage where points are awarded for closest to center, a target ID stage, box drill, etc.

Make people stand around all day and wait to fire three 45 second stages with a bolt gun in a furious hurry? An MD that charged them $40 for that would be found Sunday morning by the F-Class people hanging from his underwear at the top of the flagpole.

Justifiably.

--Fargo007
 
steve123 said:
Just a suggestion but here's a simple formula that might be a solution for the 308 vs the hot rod cartridges debate.

I'll call it the "Ballistic Coefficient Muzzle Velocity Factor" - BCVF

It's easy....BC x FPS divided by 1000.

Cartridges equaling a rating of 1.5 or less go into what amounts to 308 or ballistically similar cartridges. Over 1.5 go into the ballistically superior cartridges category.

Examples...

223 with 77 grainers. .4BC x 2850 fps divided by 1000 = 1.14 BCVF

308 with 155 grainers at 2900 fps divided by 1000 = 1.334 BCVF
308 with 168 .47BC x 2700 fps divided by 1000 = 1.269 BCVF
308 with 175 .515BC x 2650 fps divided by 1000 = 1.364 BCVF

243 with 105 - .545 x 3150 = 1.71 BCVF
260 with 140 - .6 x 2800 = 1.68 BCVF
7-08 with 168 - .62 x 2750 = 1.705 BCVF

6.5 SAUM 140 .62 x 3100 = 1.922 BCVF

7 SAUM with 180 - .67 x 2900 =1.942 BCVF
Click to expand...


I have been advocating this method of estimating cartridge comparison for about 2 years no except I didn't bother to divide by 1000. I just ran the number as is (1140, 1335, etc). It makes a really nice way to compare a "band" of performance where very little is gained or lost by changing a few hundred points (or in this case, a few tenths of a point). I like the approach for a ballistic comparison and if a performance handicap value is needed then this makes a lot of sense numerically.






From a perspective on rules and creating a rule book I have seen a lot of rules gyrations after years spent in motor racing and competitive shooting and athletic sports. The more restrictive the rule book becomes the more that arms race heats up because without the freedom to innovate on a grand scale the costs for seemingly inconsequential gains escalates quickly. I've tried to point this to a number of MD's that are experienced in only shooting sports and frankly, shooting sports are cheap. Try open-wheel racing where a 12 race series will cost $1/4M for just consumables, those kind of expenses show the pinnacle of "rule parsing" and costs escalating to gain an advantage.

This is because people are competitive, a "competitive shooter" is naturally competitive and will seek an advantage through all means. Those that want to espouse the moral high road about competition like that are not innovators or leaders, they're followers that will perpetually be chasing someone else's innovations and someone else's wins. The sport here is big enough that even for little local matches there's a group of shooters that perpetually show up that are damn good shots and the ballistic advantage of a 6 vs. a 6.5 on a match that's dominated by <800yd shots is easily absorbed by the better shooter.

There are some guys on here that I could go up against with my regular match rifle and they're "handicapped" to a 308 and yet I am pretty sure that I'd be hard pressed to beat them on a multi-day event because they're damn good at what they do.

The more someone attempts to squeeze out innovation and imparts restriction the more the competitors will work to eek out single-percent gains in performance and slip through their fingers.

"The harder you attempt to squeeze, the more they will slip through your fingers"

For that reason we need to keep the rules simple and open. The only thing I really see as a benefit to imparting ballistic restrictions is target damage. Speed/impact velocity kills steel plates, impact energy from big calibers going slow doesn't hurt the steel, it hurts the target supports. Again, another reality based exercise that's backed by simple engineering concepts but "I've been shooting steel for years, kid" MDs don't want to hear it.

Again, this is a Pandora's Box full of rules that once opened and approached leads back to the statement I made above: The more you seek to restrict in the sake of costs and "fairness" turns into an arms race for miniscule performance gains and escalating costs. I have seen matches attempted where it is "308 only match, bring your gun, the match fee includes the ammo, everyone gets the same ammo"

Well, then that immediately opens the door to guys complaining of 2 things:

Ammo is too expensive and I load my own, I can't go because the cost is too high
My rifle doesn't like that ammo and the match was biased because some guys had rifles that loved the ammo, but my $x-thousand dollar rifle doesn't like that ammo.

Again, something to bitch about, something to turn people away.

An open rule book that has minimal restrictions on calibers and scope magnifications and all of the other "cost cutting" measures will be the best thing for the sport I think. There are a lot of local matches around the country that are still ranking 308 shooters in the top spots because get this: THE GUYS CAN SHOOT.

OK, rant over... but some parting words:

I like what Frank's opened up here for discussion, I like the idea of a sport-growing rule book that's relatively open for the sake of inclusiveness, and I don't particularly like the way that the PRS model has turned from what we're discussing here and now to what is has become here and now.

The life-blood of the sport is new shooters, not the guys in colorful shirts. Building a rule book that is simple and easy for new guys to understand and absorb will push the sport's acceptedness more than a 350 page GCR with clauses and legal-ese.
 
There are some guys on here that I could go up against with my regular match rifle and they're "handicapped" to a 308 and yet I am pretty sure that I'd be hard pressed to beat them on a multi-day event because they're damn good at what they do.
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this has not shown to be true, show me any recent evidence of a 308 in the Top 10, Top 15... It stopped existing. It's a unicorn.

I have shot a 40 person local match to 550 yards and came in 2nd with my 308. It was a 1 day 48 shot match, so locally it can be done. National and regional. It's not gonna happened and probably hasn't happened in at least 2 years. If that, you'd probably have to go back farther to demonstrate more than 1 top 15 in a big match with a 308. Has a single PRS member broken the Top 20 with a 308? The stats are available instead of this evident-less musing.

We aren't touching innovation, the open class is wide open. There is no limit inside the match and again the point, no match is being asked to change a thing. It's still wide open during the competition. I really can't understand why people can't grasp this. It's simply to recognize the shooter after the fact.

Most matches give a prize for high 308, if this was not a factor why are we doing that. If it's not a factor why do people want to shoot 308 only matches. Find the facts and present them, I know as far as the SHC a 308 is shoved pretty far down the list.
 
Lowlight said:
this has not shown to be true, show me any recent evidence of a 308 in the Top 10, Top 15... It stopped existing. It's a unicorn.

I have shot a 40 person local match to 550 yards and came in 2nd with my 308. It was a 1 day 48 shot match, so locally it can be done. National and regional. It's not gonna happened and probably hasn't happened in at least 2 years. If that, you'd probably have to go back farther to demonstrate more than 1 top 15 in a big match with a 308. Has a single PRS member broken the Top 20 with a 308? The stats are available instead of this evident-less musing.

We aren't touching innovation, the open class is wide open. There is no limit inside the match and again the point, no match is being asked to change a thing. It's still wide open during the competition. I really can't understand why people can't grasp this. It's simply to recognize the shooter after the fact.

Most matches give a prize for high 308, if this was not a factor why are we doing that. If it's not a factor why do people want to shoot 308 only matches. Find the facts and present them, I know as far as the SHC a 308 is shoved pretty far down the list.
Click to expand...

The 2013 GAP Grind #4 overall was high 308 and high military shooter.

On a lesser scale, at the multi-state but not national level matches there are 308 shooters that regularly come in the top 10. And since the stuff we're talking about doesn't only consist of the SHC or RO Bash, regional level scores are quite applicable.

Dave O. was running a 308 with 155's in it until last year, he was a constant contender for all of the regional matches in western PA, WV, OH, etc. It wasn't til he started shooting PRS events that he was running a 6x47 Lapua regularly.
 
Steve's BCMVF is definitely looking like the way to go... That seems to work best for me, a small adjustment so it doesn't become a 308/223 class as I want some other calibers in the Limited class ( if the bullet doesn't matter and it's all about the shooter, it won't make a difference)

leaving it 1566 vs 1.5 helps a bit and doing it that way you can finesse it a bit more. Doing it like that I can see it broken down like

1575 Limited
1580 Open

It's a good model and accomplishes my original intent in a much better way.
 
You still haven't acknowledged it just a ranking scale and does not change the match at all it's just a recognition factor.

When end people start to understand this we can move on.... The matches, all of them remain open events.

Someone please go back and copy how many times I wrote this.
 
Wow, I've finally got caught up with this whole thread...

I think the Frank's concepts proposed here are on the right track. I'm going to summarize it all for myself to be sure I'm on the right page.
1) Create a centralized location to promote local matches.
2) Create a kit that helps local MDs develop more matches, get more out of their current local matches, and inspire some creativity. This is only used at the request of the MD.
3) Divide the country into Regions that will host Regional Matches in order to qualify for the Nationals (SHC).
4) Create a method of scoring and ranking individuals so that you can track your improvements and compare yourself to your friends.
5) Divide the scoring of individuals into classes based on their gear used.
6) Create a method of adjusting scores based on the difficulty of the match.

The one constructive comment that I'll make is in regards to #6 - adjusting scores based on the individual match. Is this really needed? At each match, you are competing against your peers. A win is a win. Yes some matches are more difficult, but they are equally difficult for all the competitors at that match. If the final match scoring were percentile based, you would not need to create a slope for the match itself. Everything would be relative to your peers... which is what the scoring system is intended to do, right? If the match is held in the rain, everyone shoots in the rain. It obviously makes the match more difficult, but I wouldn't give those guys any bonus for shooting it.

We have already seen one club feel slighted that their match wasn't worth as many points as someone else's. (Forgive me it I misunderstood some of the previous arguments, but I can see it happening later anyway.) Its human nature to hold your own work in high regard and feel miffed if someone questions it. Most of us do the same thing in one area of our lives or another.

Here is a proposal to chew on. No hard feelings if you choose not to use it.

Local Matches, Outlaw Matches - 50 points max
TRL Sanctioned Matches, Regional Matches - 75 points max
Nationals (SHC) - 100 points max
(This would allow having a winner for the National Match and possibly a different winner for the TRL Season with bigger matches being weighted more.)

Score the individual match however the MD sees fit. Rank each competitor for the match and assign them a percentile for the match based on finish placement. Multiply that percentage by the total match points.
ex. #1 - Local Match, 20 shooters, 12th place finish = 40% x 50 pts max = 20 TRL pts
ex. #2 - TRL Sanctioned Match, 80 shooters, 12th place finish = 85% x 75 pts max = 63.75 TRL pts
Winning larger matches is naturally weighted without having to collect a lot of data from each individual MD.

Frank - I think the overall concept is great. Ultimately, its your baby. Build it and see what happens. Then improvise, adapt, and overcome as needed.
 
That is right except #5 it's based on BC & MV no other gear matters. No caliber restriction, just your power factor score.

The he rest is a very close summary of the intend.

The goal was alway to move away from my first post towards a better system that maintained the intent.
 
I don't see any real comparison between what Frank is proposing and what the PRS currently does. I like what LL has come up with and it is definitely geared more towards the masses. The PRS is great series. Perfect? No, but it is only 2 years old and refinements continue. I have personally expressed concerns over the integrity of what is happening with the sponsored teams and if those issues aren't addressed PRS will unltimately implode. No one wants to shoot against a stacked deck.
At least for now the best tactical shooters in the country can, for the most part, be found shooting in the PRS series. Like NASCAR and the PGA, this isn't for everyone. It is extremely expensive and you have to be willing to train almost on a fanatical basis to be competitive. As I have found out the hard way, you can not have equipment issues, period.

There needs to be a cheaper series available to the masses that allows "PRS type" match experience to be gained without the $1000+ expense of traveling out of state to a PRS match. Frank's proposed TRL would be great for that. The PRS has had a bit of rough, albeit successful start but it has to a certain degree created a void beneath it that isn't currently being filled by the PRS club affiliation matches. No matter what sport you look at there are always tiers below the professional level that create opportunities for amatuers and enthusiast to compete at a more affordable and realistic level, the TRL would be a great avenue for shooters do just that.
 
Paul,

Just because an organization calls itself the "Professional" series doesn't mean they are the best. There are plenty of "Pro" level guys that don't want to screw around with the PRS. The TRL concept isn't to create farm teams for the PRS. In fact, since the approach is more inclusive, the TRL should end up with just as many if not more 'Pro' level guys. Plus, there is nothing in the current design that says a match couldn't be scored by both organizations.
 
I Demonstrated ThaT My Musings Had Recent Evidence To The Contrary Of Your Assertion, A Opposed To Your Claim That It Was Base-Less Musings.

since It Forest Change The Match Rankings Then What Is The Point Of Anything Except Am Open Class And Recognition Plaque Foe The 308?

What Is The Point Of So Many Different Classes?

Please Forgive The Odd Punctuation And Grammar, My Phone Doesn't Do Well On This Site


Lowlight said:
You still haven't acknowledged it just a ranking scale and does not change the match at all it's just a recognition factor.

When end people start to understand this we can move on.... The matches, all of them remain open events.

Someone please go back and copy how many times I wrote this.
Click to expand...
 
One guy, and honestly I thought that he was running a GAP 260 or 6.5 upper...

Doesn't change the stats, one guy that is... and we don't know if he can repeat that anywhere else.

I have placed locally with a 308, that doesn't mean I would run one.

Honestly, what benefit do you see to encourage ANY new or otherwise to compete against a Hot Rod when they are driving a 308? What is the point of keeping it 100% open statistically speaking? Doesn't change the match, everyone shoots the same thing.

Hey Loser, it's you, keep practicing and you'll get better... The list of the top shooters equipment from 1 to 50 is easy enough to see, it's not 308. That is clear.

I see no reason not to split the field to make it fair, not everyone is sponsored, or uses their rifle every single day (like the guy who came in #4 does) that allows them that much practice to say, it's doable... it's a fluke.

If you don't like the Velocity / Power Factor Split, don't participate it's that easy... In the BIG PICTURE it matters, regional and trickling down locally. Read what Vu wrote, nobody in their monthly match is using a 308 and they don't recommend a 308 to new Shooters. So as we bring new people into the sport are you honestly gonna recommend they buy a 308 ?

It does not change the competition but it recognize that there is a ballistic advantage to using something else, and a ballistic Advantage is still --- wait for it --- AN ADVANTAGE.

If you just want to point out a few exceptions to the rule, the few who squeak past over the years... be my guest, but don't expect to be taken serious.
 
I finally got through all 8 pages and I think this whole thing is a great idea. No one has mentioned a top end of the speed limit however. I would assume there would have to be one so as to not destroy targets, stands etc. If you split it at 2750, 2800, 2850 etc then where do you cap it? 3150 as per usual?

After reading all the purposed ideas I think the BC x speed is probably the most viable and as previously stated I don't think you'd need to do it at the local level (at least check it). Part of this is still going to be on the honor system, though. Because looking at someone's rounds I don't think you could discern between a 105 Hybrid and a 105 VLD. So who's to say what the BC is? This might be a band example as I don't think those two bullets are far enough apart but you get the idea.

Thoughts?
 
deadnbrkn84 said:
... No one has mentioned a top end of the speed limit however. I would assume there would have to be one so as to not destroy targets, stands etc. If you split it at 2750, 2800, 2850 etc then where do you cap it? 3150 as per usual?
...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
This is not an issue for Frank to address this will be addressed by each local MD as he/she sees fit. Remember, Frank is not planning on setting rules other than how scores will be recorded.
 
Ok I just didn't know if they were going to try and do a blanket speed limit or leave it up to the MD's as is usually the case now. I would imagine that Frank will set a speed limit at the SHC though like the 3200 limit in the past
 
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