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As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

the advantages Are Clear, Nobody Is disputing That Im Trying Too Understand How All Of new Class Structure That You Are Proposing Dies Anything Except Crate Paperwork If I Isn't Changing The StandiNgs

You Are Adamant That It Cannot Change The Standings, So Then Why Complicate It Past The Existing Behavior Off Recognition For Three To 308 Shooter?

I Don't Mind Having A Recognition Award But The Concept If Classes Fort The Sake Off Chooses Seems Like A Useless Burden

And I Know Very Few People That Still Recommend 308 As A New Starter Caliber. It Doesn't Make Sense For The Sport Anymore And By Is Not Alone In That Advice.

Read My Last Year Worth Of Posts For Purple Asking That Question. I Keep TellingThem Typo Go 65CM

Back To The Classes Though, Again, If It Doesn't Change The Standings Then Are Prizes Inside ClassesBeing Awarded Like Enduro Racing? Without That It Seems Like An Exercise In Paperwork Foe The Simple Pat On TheT Back


Maybe Spoilt
 
Just as high velocity and BC make it easier to win, so too do:

Detachable magazines
High capacity magazines (many factory rifles don't have 10 round magazines available)
Muzzle brakes
High end scopes

If we're going to make gaining recognition more "fair", all of the above (and more) should be factored in.

Personally, I don't use the popular Wiebad pillow/bag thing because I don't think it's practical. I don't think it's fair I'm graded on the same scale as someone who does use one.
 
Just as high velocity and BC make it easier to win, so too do:

Detachable magazines
High capacity magazines (many factory rifles don't have 10 round magazines available)
Muzzle brakes
High end scopes

If we're going to make gaining recognition more "fair", all of the above (and more) should be factored in.

Personally, I don't use the popular Wiebad pillow/bag thing because I don't think it's practical. I don't think it's fair I'm graded on the same scale as someone who does use one.

Most of the stuff you mention is far less of a factor than the BCV that has been mentioned. I haven't seen a 6CM, 6XC, 6c47 or.243AI with a ncstar on it (yet).

Past that, you forget that as the all-powerful Match Director, I get to say what you can, and cannot use, and what you can and cannot do.

I can tell you to leave the giant, wearable pillows in the car, only put three rounds in a mag at a time, or even mandate single loading. I can veto any shooting position a competitor tries to use if it is inconsistent with how I want the stage fired.

I can also assign positions on the firing line, and can stack all the 6mm brake shooters asshole to belly-button if I want. Or make them carry a "muzzle brake warning device" which at our club has (in the past) been a cinderblock.

Nothing contemplated in this discussion reduces any of my powers one single bit, or is intended to. There is no appeal past me except a long ride home.

Damn, it kinda doesn't suck to be me after all.

I'm being kind of a smart ass here, but the reality is that most successful MD's in this sport are crafting matches that even things out a number of different ways to play on gear differences. Having some stages that favor a semi, and others that favor a bolt gun is an example.

--Fargo007

(All your base are belong to us)
 
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Past that, you forget that as the all-powerful Match Director, I get to say what you can, and cannot use, and what you can and cannot do.

I can tell you to leave the giant, wearable pillows in the car, only put three rounds in a mag at a time, or even mandate single loading. I can veto any shooting position a competitor tries to use if it is inconsistent with how I want the stage fired.

I can also assign positions on the firing line, and can stack all the 6mm brake shooters asshole to belly-button if I want. Or make them carry a "muzzle brake warning device" which at our club has (in the past) been a cinderblock.

Nothing contemplated in this discussion reduces any of my powers one single bit, or is intended to. There is no appeal past me except a long ride home.

Damn, it kinda doesn't suck to be me after all.



--Fargo007

(All your base are belong to us)

+1 Can vouch for Fargo007 making us leave our wearable pillows in the car. Can also vouch for having to shoot a match with no bipod, and stages where only one bipod leg was available (Broken Arrow). In addition Fargo has on occasion summoned mother nature herself to change the weather patterns for the match mid-match.
 
Fargo, it sounds like you are an excellent MD, and a competitors equipment has little to do with their finishing order.

Most MDs are pretty darn good - I suspect that's because its a labor of love for the most part.

Still, I have been to matches where a top loading rifle is more of a disadvantage than a 308 is.

In general, MDs do a good job minimizing the impact of equipment and maximizing the impact of shooter skill.

My key point here is the "deck can be stacked" in a lot of ways. Sure, velocity/BC are HUGE at a match with lots of 1/2 moa targets at 600+ yards. However, at a ~700 yard MAX match, MV/BC is not very important. At the <700 match, a 6mm shooter with a top loader would be at a distinct disadvantage to a DBM 308.

Few 6mm shooters will have top loaders, but the point is the same: MV/BC is only one factor, and a rather lacking one, in "system capability".
 
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I am tired of explaining it to be quite honest, if after 8 pages you haven't figure it out by now, especially considering all the examples in other shooting sports, like F Class Open vs F/TR why did they bother, it is KD, with sighters... what was their point.

If you can't grasp the concept of mindset, if you can't understand ranking yourself along similar lines rather than just an overhead shot, how am I supposed to explain it too you. I don't see it has more work, it's after the fact. But it gives a better metric, information is power, it guides buying decision, it points in direction that satisfies the individual. This is sports Entertainment, if they don't enjoy it, (read back on the early pages) or feel intimidated because of the equipment race, why would they come.

It was mentioned racing and cars, how would you like working for 3 months to show up to race and find out you're running an ARCA Car against a Sprint Cup Car... that is a better analogy No everyone follows this as close as others.

K&M had rain but next to NO WIND, come to a match with winds over 10MPH and tell me how well a ballistically disadvantaged cartridge will do.

it was mentioned outside of here, how the same Top 10 are rewarded over and over, that the positions change one or two places and the same guys are reaping the benefits. Well that is great, but if you think sponsors want to see the same 10 get their stuff at 3 different matches I will tell you know they don't. If you can spread it out, if you can entertain the guys mid and lower pack and not just have them sit there and watch the "Pros" reap the rewards, you bring more into the sport. Consider any one guy who says, "I have a new SPR and feels he is a good shot, but competitively he says, "why bother" when knows the 6mm will walk way with it ALL and stays home. He could very easily win the Limited Class, get hooked and move forward.

Changing a rifle from a Top Loader, (sorry there are very few of those) to a DBM system is a lot cheaper than investing in a new caliber.

We are doing it very simply...

Limited & Open... the only top end is what people place on their own matches to protective their steel or the shooters. On the lower end it recognizes the up and coming guys or great shooters with limited resources who can't afford to change rifles to keep up with the pack. It's not IDPA with multiple classifications, it Not 3Gun with multiple classifications, it's 2. If that gives you heart burn the PRS is wide open, shoot that way and enjoy.

I never mentioned a thing about use rewarding a 308 shooter, I am just saying a 308 shooter should not have to be compared to a 6mm @ 3150fps... if a 308 is shooting against a 6.5CM going 2700fps great, may the best man win. Just like the Open Class, if a 260REM @ 2900fps is shooting against a 6mm, good luck have fun... but it is not a blow out. This sport is expensive, and not everyone has the time and money to invest in order to work so hard to overcome the ballistic advantages working against them. If you balance it even a little bit, you encourage more and intimidate less. I cannot make it any simpler.
 
There is always gonna be an advantage, one could argue that a guy shooting a 308 at 2575 shooting against a guy shooting it 2725 has an advantage.

The idea is not to create a blow out situation and keep it competitive while not breaking it down into 10 different classes.

If the guy shooting a 308 is feeling it against a 6.5 shooting under 2800fps, then he can switch to a 155gr and shoot it up to 2800 himself and take back that advantage.

Open vs Limited based on speed eases you into it.


I think this is huge. Putting shooters into a class and then they winning only their class would make a huge difference. If you have a match that says you will take shots out to 1350 yards with the possibility of high winds, good luck with some of the slower calibers. You just knocked that guy out for a stage. While the guy that probably can't shoot as good, goes up there and bangs it away with his "6.5 super sniper hammer". Rank guys into class regarding caliber and speed.

If the top guys want to duke it out, they will all run 6mm's with a speed no more then 3200fps? (hypothetical)
There are a bunch of ways to hash it out but I hope this helps clarify.
 
I guess I see how that breaks the super fast guys apart from the slower guys...
But what's to stop one of the teams from designating limited div shooters and open?

They're still gonna walk away with top places, still gonna walk away with the prizes.

And the top PRS shooters with a 6.5 in limited is still gonna win vs the newer guy.

Unless you force guys to shoot open or break up your limited division even further into classes like USPSA


If your worried about prize table being distributed just go random draw.
 
You don't get and frankly there aren't that many PRS guys and regionals are still regionals. The bigger the pool, the better.

What if aliens land and give all pulse rifles. What does that do do the divisions.

if you followed this thread, I clearly said I hoped the Team guys do split it up. We want some in the limited Div.

i swear I must be speaking Greek.
 
Do some of you not get a rating system?

If some the top guys instead of all chasing speed, step down a notch and win running a similar rifle to you, that gives you a better idea of what you need to do to improve your skill.

If you show up to match with nothing to look at but an open field, you versus the ballistically superior bullet, it's easy to sit back and say, there is nothing you can do because your 2650fps was outgunned against the guy running 3150. But if that guy is running 2700 against your 2650 you can then say, well look he is executing the course better at the following places. It's less of an excuse and all boats have an opportunity to rise with the same wave.

Instead too many show up, first time match, do poorly and decide, I'll come back when I can buy the latest whizz bang. They want to purchase success instead of earn it because in their mind the gun was more important.

We can all agree I think, a handgun at 10 yards is what it is, yet they split them up to hell and back. No drop, no drift, point, hit. So why gear classes ? What can possibly effect the outcome when comparing a handgun, 9 vs 40 vs ported vs sight. It's a better than 2 MOA target. Point hit. It's all shooter so why limit the gear.

Why not let everyone just shoot F Class open, the course is the same for everyone ? Why a split ranking wise ?

This is not new...
 
I get that.... But honestly a lot of the guys running 6mms aren't running them right at the 3150 speed limit. They really aren't out running the 6.5s with 130s going 2950-3000fps by much. 100 ish fps or less in some cases.

Even in USPSA there's still an equipment race in individual divisions...though not as much as open. But there just isn't that much variation in rifles as there are in pistols. And as Ken Linn said....a 6mm costs the same to build as a 6.5 or 308. The difference between a tactical competition 308 vs a tactical competition 6mm creedmoor is the size of the bore. Everything else is the same. Triggers, stocks, DBM, optics, breaks, etc.


Look at what most people are buying/setting up for their first rifles. Sps tactical 308s. Running 175s at 2600ish. There's not that many factory 6.5s out there and moving to a 6.5 generally means a custom build. 6mms are relatively new at the forefront of matches so give it another year and I'm sure a lot of people will be doing them instead of 6.5s for builds.


I've followed the thread it seemed your two biggest complaints were

1.). Prizes going to the same people..... That's not really gonna change unless you go random draw or semi-random.


2.). New(er) shooters being intimidated. Certainly the division idea can help....but a guy losing with a 6.5cm with a bushnell is still gonna feel he's outgunned by someone with a Schmidt or someone who hand loads, or someone who has access to custom rifles, or places to shoot/practice, gets free barrels or smith work etc.

It's been my experience that the idea of competing scares most people away....without any idea of what it actually entails.

I'm all for new shooters but if you wanna get them out shooting some things I've seen done are hosting half day training/ half day match. Free competition training/experience days.

Ultimately this is a game and gamers will game it. So unless you go hardcore with specific caliber, bullet, speed dimensions someone's always gonna feel outgunned and try and buy performance.


I'm all for more matches though so the more stuff the better....I just don't personally see how this changes things very much.
 
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Fargo, it sounds like you are an excellent MD, and a competitors equipment has little to do with their finishing order.

Most MDs are pretty darn good - I suspect that's because its a labor of love for the most part.

Still, I have been to matches where a top loading rifle is more of a disadvantage than a 308 is.

In general, MDs do a good job minimizing the impact of equipment and maximizing the impact of shooter skill.

My key point here is the "deck can be stacked" in a lot of ways. Sure, velocity/BC are HUGE at a match with lots of 1/2 moa targets at 600+ yards. However, at a ~700 yard MAX match, MV/BC is not very important. At the <700 match, a 6mm shooter with a top loader would be at a distinct disadvantage to a DBM 308.

Few 6mm shooters will have top loaders, but the point is the same: MV/BC is only one factor, and a rather lacking one, in "system capability".

Thanks bro, it was said with love in my heart.

One of the major benefits I see to this is that it prevents match design from being strapped to the back of the gear race.

After a while, stages start to get designed with the uppermost competitive tier of equipment in mind. And THAT is when it gets bad for everyone, because it becomes "Match Director versus the shooters."

This happened in 3-Gun. Some guys went out and got 22" shotguns and cleaned up with them. They were within the rules to do it.

After that, most shotgun stages started to get designed with the assumption that an 11 shot 22" FN or Benelli with work done on it and one stacked on the carrier would be used. If you didn't have one, you weren't competitive. No matter how good you were with the other two guns.

The same process is already well on the way here. There is a crop of uber-competitive shooters in our sport who collectively saw advantage in the 6mm calibers, and they have realized that advantage. They all just wouldn't be shooting them otherwise.

We can point to some examples (now) which show this not to be the case, but the gear race isn't in third gear yet. In a couple-three years it won't be so easy.

History repeats itself. The gear race is only the first part of it. Following that, precision rifle stages will start to get designed with those "three barrels a season" guns in mind. And that's when I think it will have become pure game & race, lost all its training value and for all except those with the uber-competitive bug and a trust fund... no fun anymore.

You made a great point on equipment. Once you start seeing stuff being used that wouldn't make sense for an LE/MIL sniper, it's already moving toward pure game IMHO. Like a brake, to tame the massive recoil of the 6xc, or an almost eerie and universal absence of suppressors and semi-autos.

Stopping the need to continually elevate BCV is necessary, because I see that forestalling the sport from being bolted to and DRIVEN by the gear race. It doesn't interfere with those who disagree and want to go that way.

"bona fortuna!"

--Fargo007
 
.

What if aliens land and give all pulse rifles. What does that do do the divisions.

What kind of barrel life do you think we can get? :cool:

Nothing is going to be perfected over night, but I am game to work on anything that can help shooters at the local level and grow the sport.
 
Vu about 1.1 Gigawatts of course :)
[MENTION=15163]rrflyer[/MENTION]

so I suppose it's better to not touch anything, just pay for the privilege to see your name on list and nothing more.

You showed up, you tried, you failed, mail your dues and here's a link to your name.

Here is the deal, I am moving forward with the people who get it, if you don't like it, email me instead of derailing the conversation with your Tom Hanks impersonation. Especially since you aren't adding anything constructive at all. We're gonna move the ball down field. We have a ton of great ideas, the concept is being refined and productive debate is fine tuning it both here and behind the scenes. All the rest is noise, and frankly we wasted too much time on it.

The best part, for those who get it, it won't cost you a dime. We'll rise on the collective ideas from those that understand the need, the rest can continue to march without any interference from what we're proposing. If anything they might benefit from the efforts.
 
I didn't say that but If you just want people to say how awesome your ideas are that's ok I guess its your house.


Thought you might be looking to discuss ways of getting new shooters involved in competition and get more people to matches.


If you've got it all figured out why start this thread Instead of just starting your series?
 
Here is your simplified contribution since you want to simplify what I am saying.

why, I don't get it, why,

example, a random draw for prizes is meaningless ... Why not hand them out before the match starts?

You don't even know the difference between contributing and just asking "why"

clearly, my idea has morphed and has very little resemblance to the first post... But you don't care about any of that. Instead you'll act like you're adding something of substance and I just want my dick sucked instead of recognizing or acknowledging the changes that have happened.

Youre wasting our time whether you recognize it or not.
 
Actually it was more like...

"Why? This really doesn't change anything and here's why....so what's the point."

If this is less about growing and inviting new shooters and more about personal issues that's cool.


My criticism was meant to be constructive whether you decide to take it that way or not. It sounds like you have your direction.

Good luck. Hope to see you on the firing line
 
Lowlight do you think you could either update your top post or make one post for the rules which you are currently proposing. After 10 pages I'm still not 100% certain whether its a BC/MV factor or pure speed in addition I think it would clear up a lot of ambiguity. My next quesiton is about the Super Bowl qualifers.

How are you going to determine the top whatever. Say you have 80 seats in the super bowl(SHC) is it going to be the top 5 shooters of each class from each region + X. Or how will you determine this. The issue I'm imaging is say the top 10 guys from each of the 4 major regions from each class (Gets you 80 shooters). Are the 5th place limited shooters really better shooters then the 11th-15th Open shooters? Or is it your intention for that to be the nature of the game.

In addition and I know this isn't on board exactly as you have written so far but would you consider a truely open format. I think it would be a much more fun sport if instead of putting the rules on the shooters the governing body which right now I believe is just you(lowlight) simply coached the participating match directors on how to run matches, get hooked up with sponsors, and grow the sport in their region. Your match in the box is great. Now how can we build barricades in a box, and boxed stages. Let everyone rung what they brung, whether it be a S&W M&P AR-10 in .308 or a Surgeon in 6mm Creedmoor. Let the match directors run their matches and have the governing body help them grow the sport.

My concerns are over the shooter who doesn't know where they fit in and because of every guy on every forum who helped him make his rig went out and bought a .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor and some reloading supplies. Now he has to decide if he wants to push the limit and himself and shoot open. Or be ballistically at the top of his class in limited.
 
Ain't no pro shooter gonna intimidate me and my .308.

At our kinda impromptu match last Saturday we had 4 out of 13 shooters that had not ever shot a shooting competition before. There were also the good old boys that were fiercely competing for bragging rights. I really don't think I have ever heard so much laughing and BS in any match before. Nobody gave a damn about classes. But for a regional or national events like you are talking, two classes sounds really good.

Since I'll never be shooting a national championship, last Saturday will have to do.

I'm kinda proud of our small town matches where we have had anywhere from 2 to 53 shooters at a match.

Back to the subject. We are combining little league, minor league and major league here in this thread. Let's remember it took most of 100 years for baseball, football, NASCAR, etc. to get where they are today. With a lot of cut throat politics I might add.

GO FOR IT FRANK. Just announce what info you need. MD's can add a couple lines to the sign in sheet then email the results to an account or what ever to be posted on line. It would be nice to see match name, where, when, shooter list, place, scores, caliber, fps-BC, round count, maximum and average distance, wind, prize distribution, etc. Most matches post most of this info some where anyway. All in one place would be good. This would help shooters decide what matches they want to shoot. They could decide if it's too small or too big a match for them. And you could use these numbers to organize regional and national shoots for those interested. Divided into two classes sounds good to me for more regional or national events.

If they are real competitors, PRS shouldn't mind at all that there is competition for best in the country.

Don't matter what rules the local matches go by. It wouldn't hurt if it was a .22rf match. I know some that might be interested in a regional .22. But just use the numbers you think would work for your idea.

If there were separate sections on Tactical Competitions of state or regional areas, that would help people find what they want. Getting tough to find stuff. There's too many that don't use SH already.

And hey everybody, we are all competitors BUT, lets all stay on the same side, guns and gun skills are a hell of a lot more important than car races or football.

P.S.
I'm sorry for areas (north east?) that have a hard time finding areas or matches to shoot. In Utah, it's more of a problem deciding which match you are going to shoot on any given day. And most of the time we do a lot of helping each other out.

Before I found the North Springs Range six years ago, I spent a lot of time with private property owners, zoning departments and the BLM trying to make something happen. These are realistic possibilities.

I'd like to see what Frank has to help MD's out.
 
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I will update everything tomorrow I have been out of the office for the last two days. Normally I have 5 to 10 Private Messages, I have 25 regarding this, not to mention the emails.

There will be new forum sections to discuss, local regional and the matches between & beyond.

The key will be the locals feed into the regionals, it will hopefully mean one regional can qualify you. A match like the SHC shot 125 shooters this year, we can handle more, 150, potentially even 200. So the regionals should be able to add 20 shooter per region at least.

We'll have alliances with Match Directors to help steer it, as well as Regional Directors. We've also had inquires from ranges that can be used. They are an important part of this. The goal is make so no matter the region your in you won't have to travel 12 hours to attend a match, both locally and regionally. If we can line that up it will be a big first step. Currently if you not in TX, OK. Or out west, attending these matches means a day long drive or a plane. Attending 3 matches to qualify is a huge expense. Making it one Regional, eases the burden especially if we can help elevate the local matches.

The additional forums here will be a place to exchange ideas, rank and score. We'll have resources for match directors and we can all pull together to help identify areas that are lacking. It won't be overnight, but it's a plan with a path.
 
I think this is a great idea in general. However, with various locales only being able to offer a limited COF i.e. some ranges are limited in distance, some limited in wind, or lack thereof, it would be great if the various competitions can incorporate PRE-QUALIFIED stages that would allow for an apples-to-apples comparison for ALL competitions and competitors. Having STANDARDIZED STAGES that would allow those with limited range/wind would be great. We've all shot on stages that appeared simple in their design, but proved to be dastardly difficult to run clean and even score well on,... In the interest of offering a baseline for competitors to compare their skills against others and to offer MD's a pre-made stage design, it would be great for there to be several "APPROVED" stage designs that are simple to set up at various locales, would truly test the meddle of the contestants, and offer a means of DIRECT comparison to those throughout the nation (world) running the same stage. I envision the day when you can go on youtube and see vids of guys/gals running these stages and picking up pointers on how to best navigate them. Just a thought.

Ry
 
I've followed the thread it seemed your two biggest complaints were

1.). Prizes going to the same people..... That's not really gonna change unless you go random draw or semi-random.


2.). New(er) shooters being intimidated. Certainly the division idea can help....but a guy losing with a 6.5cm with a bushnell is still gonna feel he's outgunned by someone with a Schmidt or someone who hand loads, or someone who has access to custom rifles, or places to shoot/practice, gets free barrels or smith work etc.

I've been following this thread with interest.....I'm new to this sport and started a little over a year ago. I've been shooting all my adult life but spent the past 20 or so years hauling horses down the rodeo road and I've witnessed the growth and splintering and re-birth of various associations on the rodeo side.....take the USTRC, it started in the late 80's as a classification and ranking system for team Ropers, hugely successful because it allowed producers (match directors) to hold one event and contestants to compete within their division.....best of all the prize table was geared to the lower divisions and the pros got cash only.......this is what the sponsors want, their stuff to go to new shooters who will use the stuff. This would require an organization to keep track of every members rank, a local board to classify shooters....he'll I got my USTRC card every year with my name printed on it and clarification number for years! I'm. Not sure we want to go here but give me a second to develop my point.......

Another example has been the NBHA barrel racing, back in the day the fastest horse won, every single race....if your horse wasn't the fastest your entry fees went to the girls who was....the sport was dying. They invented a division system within a single race where the fastest one, .5 second off the leader was first in the 2D, 1 second off the fastest won the 3D ect.....allowed for expansion of the sport and contestants to accumulate points in their respective division, have a great day, win the whole thing....have a shitty day and you still have a chance to win a division with the handicap......this way you don't classify contestants but allow them to earn points within divisions based in their performance and award prizes equally in a division.

Now, back to our issue....shot my first local match exactly a year ago with my hunting rifle, loved it went all in and now have a 6.5CM and decent scope...not a gamers rifle but certainly competitive. I shot two matches last year as well, placed 9th out of 57 and 28th out of 61...........now here's my opinion.

1. I think there is too much focus on the equipment side, I agree there is an advantage but I don't see the need to break down shooters on this basis...only limits should be for target integrity and safety.

Instead, allow everyone to shoot and break the final standings into divisions or classifications based off a % of overall match score or placing location within a match, then gear payouts and trips to the table based on divisions....It will allow a chance at good stuff to lower caliber shooters and spread the wealth while maintaining a competitive aspect....and better than a random draw.

Not sure if it should be determined on % of total match score say 0-25% shooter....25-50% rifleman...50-75% marksman....75%+ expert. Or the alternative is to break the final score sheet into equal parts.......shooter 1-25 expert, 26-50 marksman 51-75 rifleman 76-100 shooter........take your pick!

I think there's a lot of opportunity for a local, regional, national format to work here........it's all about the $$ at the end of the day and if you give a new shooter a chance at a rifle cause he won the rifleman division your on to something.

I'm behind anything that provides shooting opportunity.
 
There is no equipment limit, none, it's just divided in two groups based on the ballistics. It's only saying a Sprint Cup caliber is not being directly compared for the sake of the League to a Nationwide caliber. If you as nationwide caliber driver wins the match you still win the match.

Nothing else, its the bullet and muzzle velocity which, this is long range precision rifle so that is clearly a determining factor in the potential outcome.

Rifle, scope, bipod, barrel, none of that is being discussed nor does it matter. It's irrelevant the equipment all that matters is the bullet and speed it's being pushed. After the fact and just for ranking.

I will summarize and update this later but it still appears to be a misunderstanding. There is not a single sport that I can think of that is just "open" where a new shooter is ranked alongside the most experienced. No shooting sport has just one division, winner take all regardless of every factor. There is no one class and you all fit. Not even benchrest do they say it's the shooter that matters. Not F Class, so why the misunderstanding is beyond me.
 
I like the match in a box concept. Being able to use 200 yard ranges to at least give shooters the chance to practice their stage navigating skills is a great idea.

I'd be in favor of a few standardized stages for the sake of comparison. Much like crossfitters use Fran times, I could call my buddy across the country and ask him what his (insert stage name here) time is.

I'd probably expand this to also include blueprints for
barricades/obstacles. This has already been brought up in the last 30 pages I'm sure.

I am more in favor of having a limited class to just .223 Remington and .308 Winning-chester. Both of these have an upper performance ceiling that is similar, and most guys start out with a factory rifle in one or the other. And at least for the 308, you can buy the really fast 155gr stuff, or just load it yourself.

The BC*V thing is probably better. It basically places an upper limit on ballistic performance without having a specific caliber rule. It would have the same result.

You really can't do much to limit other things like DBMs and optics. DBMs are current technology and are simply more practical. Optics are something I dont see as much of an advantage once you get something thats reasonably good. If I can see the target clearly through the scope, it has good tracking, and I have good dope, I should be able to hit that target.

Too long didnt read; I'm saying the same damn thing at least 50% of everyone else has.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
1. I think there is too much focus on the equipment side, I agree there is an advantage but I don't see the need to break down shooters on this basis...only limits should be for target integrity and safety.

The law of unintended consequences applies here. If you ignore equipment in an attempt to de-emphasize it, you make an arms race the only option if you want to compete at the top. For some, this is inevitable (it's in their blood) - hence the "open" classes you see in many shooting disciplines (have you ever seen an open class benchrest gun? they look more like tiny howitzers than rifles). Some people just want to go nuts on the equipment and need a venue to do that. The rest of us want to focus more on the sooting and not have to worry about (and pay for) new gear all the time. So you need equipment based classifications or it all goes to hell because you can't stop the gearheads from dominating. So we let them dominate in their own class where they can experiment to their hearts' content.

And it really matters. I outshoot some really good F class shooters at local matches. Guys who are better than me. But it's because I'm using a 6mmXC and they're using a .308. Different stroke for different folks. One size doesn't fit all, and this plays out in pretty every shooting discipline out there.

Ballistic performance seems as logical a divider as any. Just kind of a pain to deal with if you have to chrono everyone at a big match. A better indicator would be wind drift at 1000, but that's even more of a pain to deal with since you'd have to chrono and run a ballistics program for every competitor - it's just impractical. I'd settle for .308/.223 vs everyone else, but it's not that big a deal.
 
My point is i think it would be better to classify shooters into divisions and award points or prizes based off of performance than by equipment class used.

Rotating trips to the prize table amongst divisions would offer more incentive for newer shooters....
 
My point is i think it would be better to classify shooters into divisions and award points or prizes based off of performance than by equipment class used.

Rotating trips to the prize table amongst divisions would offer more incentive for newer shooters....

You need both, but only for large matches (say, more than 50-60). Otherwise the Open Sharpshooter class winds up being 3 people, which is sort of useless. Of the two, the equipment based division is the more important. I have a hard time believing that someone who is classified as a sharpshooter is really all that impressed with himself for winning his class, especially if it's just a few people. It's fun, but not very important in my view.

Performance based classifications are important for a different reason - it builds in goals for a shooter. Video game makers have known this for a while, but the "leveling up" is psychologically addictive. It gives a shooter who may not be very skilled a tangible, achievable goal and helps motivate them to come back.
 
I agree to a point and having entry based on division and class will wind up with too small groups...... I'm suggesting no classes.... Everyone enter up and shoot what you want, your total match score will deter ermine what division and consequentially what your reward is, want to consistently be an expert? Up your equipment (what sponsors need)......

Each division gets a shot at top tier prizes.

It's worked for other sports...... I see shooting sports defining equipment classes too often and I'm offering observations outside that box from my experience.

If team roping would have said your in this class if you paid $20k for your horse and if you paid less your in this other group I don't think it would have worked as well.
 
I will summarize and update this later but it still appears to be a misunderstanding. There is not a single sport that I can think of that is just "open" where a new shooter is ranked alongside the most experienced. No shooting sport has just one division, winner take all regardless of every factor. There is no one class and you all fit. Not even benchrest do they say it's the shooter that matters. Not F Class, so why the misunderstanding is beyond me.

I don't think there is any misunderstanding. This keeps getting brought up because no one understands the point.

If the goal is to make a class for the new shooters, this doesn't do it. If the goal is to simply make two different classes, then this will certainly get it done.

As previously mentioned, it costs the same to barrel a rifle in either 260, or 6 CM. Which would be in two different classes.

I know that I for one choose to shoot a 6.5 CM for various reasons. I am not the greatest, but I did qualify for the finale as a pro at #36. If this ends up being the model, I will swap to 6.5 SAUM, or buy a 6 CM reamer because I don't want to be in the pee wee division.

I think having a new shooter division is an excellent idea that may escalate the sport, we just don't think this will accomplish that goal.

Maybe 3 top 10% local finishes, or one top 20% regional finish, or any qualification to the finale moves you out of the new shooters division. Thoughts on that?

Ty
 
@fireguyty

Nobody really cares what you think, you have proven that, going back pages and pages.

Clearly a lot of people do understand because there have been so many on track discussions. The majority get it.

I have already said, we can accommodate more shooters because our matches can hold more... so bringing in the Top 20 regionally is easy, if a guy from the local matches who does not want to shoot the regionals wants to attend the big matches I am sure we'll have room.

Here is another BIG POINT. We are looking towards the Match Directors and what will be set up as Regional Directors to help administer this. Currently the PRS has COMPETITORS acting as the Administrative Board, to include most of their Top 10 shooters in the Series> So the Foxes are Managing the Hens and how the Hen House is laid out. How is that any better or Fair ?

Their credibility with a lot of people is poor at best, sure plenty over look these facts, but they are still the facts. Pretty sure a Board Member won the event last years, will probably win this year... and they are making the decisions.

There already is a wide open class, it's called Open, you can run what you brung already... there is no restriction.

Some people get it, and some people like you just want to cause a problem. Why are you here again I thought you would be gone or are you just trying to force me to remove you ?
 
As previously mentioned, it costs the same to barrel a rifle in either 260, or 6 CM. Which would be in two different classes.

I know that I for one choose to shoot a 6.5 CM for various reasons. I am not the greatest, but I did qualify for the finale as a pro at #36. If this ends up being the model, I will swap to 6.5 SAUM, or buy a 6 CM reamer because I don't want to be in the pee wee division.
.

That's not what I am reading. It looks like your 6-7mms would be competing in an Open class.

The Limited class would be made up of plebes like me shooting .308 bolt guns. Or something of similar performance. BC*V puts an effective cap on allowable ballistic advantage.

A Limited class would definitely give me more of a reason to keep going at it with my FN SPR. It would be nice to have a shot at something on the prize tables because my match fee is just the same as everyone else's.



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Updated !

Tactical Rifleman's League

Objective:

Competitions

To rank individuals through an objective scoring system
To assist match directors in promoting their competitions by use of the forum and other outlets available
At assist match directors when requested in hosting & setting up matches in their local area. Assistance can come in a variety of ways from COF help, to standards, guidelines, ranking.
Assist in establishing guidelines for the precision rifle community for matches, ranking, and scoring.
To give the sport a classification & ranking system that is balanced, and including both matches and individuals

To Promote the Tactical Rifle Shooter to the community

The TRL will be free to join, there will not be any fees. We will include forum sections for Individual Shooters, Match Directors, Facilities and Sponsors

Classifications

Open Division
Limited Division
Mil Spec Division
Gas Gun Division

The open and limited division will be based on the Ballistic Coeffiecent and Velocity Factor power system.

Velocity X BC = BCVF

2900 X .61 = 1769

BCs will be held to 2 places as in .58, .47. etc.

The Limited Division will be BCVFs under 1575 with the Open Division over BCVFs over 1580.

Ranking will be done at the TRL level and not be require by the individual match director to manage. It will only be at the National Level will classes and ranking come into place, as well as part of the recognition and rating factor for the TRL.

The Gas Gun division will be determined by the member shooting a gas operated rifle at the Regional & National level.
The Mil Spec division will be for active duty military & law enforcement

This system is in place to leave the fields as open as possible while not expecting those shooting ballistically inferrer calibers to be held to a direct comparison with ballistically superior cartridges found in many of today's matches.

Guidelines

Guidelines will be created and assembled to assist members and match directors to choose from best practices found at other competitions and give them an opportunity to put them in place. By sharing information and resources we hope to increase the competitions around the country and overseas as well as standardize these best practice in an on going fashion. These guidelines will not be rules, but options a match director can choose from.

Match Design Support

The TRL will also help through the network and our resources any match director wishing to take advantage of the resources available. SH will make available it's "Match in a Box" package that will include 2 targets to choose from and some suggested uses for each of those targets. Ultimate it is up the individual Match Director to create their own match with its own unique course of fire. However we recognize the best matches in the country are not necessarily the biggest, but those with the most diverse & challenging course of fire. Using the combined experiences found through the TRL we hope that all matches will rise to national recognition for their excellence.

The layout of the TRL will be based on:

1. The Individual Shooter
2. Local Level Matches and Match Directors
3. Regional Matches & a Regional TRL Director
4 National Matches

The TRL Board will consist of Match Directors, Clubs & Facilities to help make changes and adjust the administration of the TRL Objectives. We understand this will be a work in progress.

The goal at the TRL level is rank individuals and matches according a system that balances the unique composition of the Tactical Rifle Sport. One such system is:

Distance = .5pt per 50yards, per target. Add up the yardage on multiple target stages to get the distance value. Do not do this if all the targets are all on the same line. We will count that like shooting at one target multiple times to keep things simple.
Short movement or transition = 1pt
Run & Gun (more than 25yards) = 2pts
Number of Targets engaged during a stage = 1pt per target
Competitor shooting in the prone only = 1pt
Shooting in the Sitting, Kneeling, Standing, Unsupported Prone, or Weak Side = 2pts
Use of prop or barricade (per prop) = 2pts
Lesss than 10 seconds par time per round in COF description = 2pt
Greater than 10 seconds par time per round in COF description = 1pt
Magazine change require = 1pts
Stage has UKD Targets : 2pts
Moving Target: 2pts
Average target size for stage equaling 1MOA or smaller = 3pts
Average target size for stage equaling 1MOA – 2MOA = 2pt
Average Target size for stage equaling bigger than 2MOA = 1


After you calculate the score for all your COFs, add those up and combine with the two values below to get a total event score.
Number of shooters for the entire match: 1pts per shooter
Total Estimated Round Count = 1pts per round


Example: The COF below would have a score of 19pts total.


Stage 1 – CompRifle Fastest Shooter
RO: Sam
Spotters: 4
Prep Time: Combined with shoot time. (Prep the entire squad at a time.)
Shoot Time: 99.99 seconds
Round Count: 8 rounds
Point Value/Scoring: 10 points per hit and a “Time Bonus” if the last target is hit within the allotted round count before the shoot time expires.
Target Package: (4) 8” Swingers @ 550 yards, and one (1) MGM Bowling Pin @ 330 yards.
Starting Position: Standing behind the yellow line, rifle in hand, magazine in, chamber flag out, and bolt back.

Notes: Targets MUST be hit in the correct order to count. If a competitor engages the targets out of order, RO/spotters will say, “Wrong target, re-engage”.

Information Exchange will be the goal of the TRL on SH.

This system will better help a Match Director gauge their competitions standing against others around the country. Also it will allow the Shooter to rank the individual matches they attend. It is for informational purposes and will not be used to rank the individual shooter.
 
I Love the classic misdirection being attempted ... Oh it costs the same, just get the latest whizz bang.

Sorry not everyone is sponsored, and not everyone has multiple rifles to play with. There are a ton of shooters out their who invested a lot of their money in one rifle that thought was tactical, it might be a 308, it might be something else. Not everyone wants to immediately invest in $750 to rebarrel it because...

Clearly these guys are still butt hurt and just looking to misdirect the conversation. Its the same group just a different name. They are all buzzing in the background and know this balances the field in a way that includes more and pushes away none compared to the current model available. Sure you can pay to play, but you're just paying into a Open Field with the 90% paying into the Top 10, nothing more. They designed it that way.

He has been clearly spinning it, just like I said their match was a 7 vs 10 which started his hissy fit, when Vu demonstrated it, (and shot it) nobody cried a single word of foul. Meanwhile I never mentioned anyone directly until asked, and my opinion lined up with a guy who shot it. It's selective outrage... because I said it, let's all start a shit storm and change the subject. that is all they are looking to do is change the subject.
 
@fireguyty

Here is another BIG POINT. We are looking towards the Match Directors and what will be set up as Regional Directors to help administer this.


Frank would there be board members or how will this be structured? If so how would they be first selected? Profit or non?
 
I am not charging anyone anything, if someone wants to be paid, well my proposal is not the place.

I included the board information above. We are not gonna let the competition be sitting board members. Through the site will be a process for them to discuss a match, and help guide any matches that need TLC to be more successful, but unlike the PRS we will not have Competitors Managing the board. The Fox should not be in charge of the hens.

Match Directors do this for a labor of love, the goal should be to make the best match given the resources available. They have their eyes and ears to the ground because the see first hand what people are doing during their matches.
 
I would be happy to help develop a "TRL" match in a box target set in addition to paper. Might be something regional matches could use. I'm sure we could come up with a discounted set, FWIW.

Also, just for clarification are we going with actual or published BC's? We all know the published .508 BC for lapua Scenar 155's is not accurate. It is more like .465-.470 in real life, for example.
 
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This is what I envision as "Resources" available to Match Directors... Like SH Vendors and companies that can step up to help the little guy grow and succeed.

We have a lot of horsepower here, I will say again, the rising tide lifts all boats. Contrary to the haters, its not about me, I am not competing, I am not placing myself as the sole director it's a collaboration and working together towards a common goal.

The haters like to say, it's my house, but only because they have nothing to add and know once put in motion it will work. Anyone who has met me, knows the truth, I am not here to take like some... just like when I attend matches, you never see me raiding the prize table regardless of where I place.(usually high enough to matter) I put stuff on the table and leave it for those who deserve it.

Same thing here, I am looking to fill a void and make it work for as many people as want to take advantage of the effort.
 
Support from Hollywood is rolling in!

65726d1184733843-jessica-biel-mtv-trl-2007-07-16-brownish-gold-silve-jessbielmtvtrldb049_122_757lo-50-80-.jpg




And I have a perfect non shooting host who can get star backing.

Total-Request-Live-e1352756368907.jpg



Just a little humor to lighten the mood some ;)
 
Distance = .5pt per 50yards, per target. Add up the yardage on multiple target stages to get the distance value. Do not do this if all the targets are all on the same line. We will count that like shooting at one target multiple times to keep things simple.
Short movement or transition = 1pt
Run & Gun (more than 25yards) = 2pts
Number of Targets engaged during a stage = 1pt per target
Competitor shooting in the prone only = 1pt
Shooting in the Sitting, Kneeling, Standing, Unsupported Prone, or Weak Side = 2pts
Use of prop or barricade (per prop) = 2pts
Lesss than 10 seconds par time per round in COF description = 2pt
Greater than 10 seconds par time per round in COF description = 1pt
Magazine change require = 1pts
Stage has UKD Targets : 2pts
Moving Target: 2pts
Average target size for stage equaling 1MOA or smaller = 3pts
Average target size for stage equaling 1MOA – 2MOA = 2pt
Average Target size for stage equaling bigger than 2MOA = 1


After you calculate the score for all your COFs, add those up and combine with the two values below to get a total event score.
Number of shooters for the entire match: 1pts per shooter
Total Estimated Round Count = 1pts per round


Just thinking out loud here, but can this be simplified? Think of it this way - the difficulty of a shot comes down to 4 things, more or less:

-Range
-Target Size
-Position
-Time

You could give every shot in the course of fire a difficulty score:
Range:
-Short (up to 300): 1pt
-Medium(up to 600): 2pt
-Long (>600): 3pt

Target Size:
4MO or more: 1pt
2-4MOA: 2pt
<2MOA: 3pt

Position:
Supported Prone: 1pt
Offhand:3pt
Anything else: 2pt

Time:
More than 20s: 1pt
less than 20s to make shot: 2pt
less than 10s to make shot: 3pt

Tweak the numbers as necessary to make them balance, but you get the gist. It would give a rough but simple way to gage the overall difficulty of a match. The difficulty of the course would be an average of the the difficulty scores for each shot. Every match would have a difficulty score between 4 and 12.

I might be missing something huge, but just wanted to float that.
 
Will someone please call someone else a Nazi so we can move on and actually try Frank's concept and see how it works?
 
I am not brand loyal. For scopes, I will change them out like underwear if I think something is better. Same thing with calibers, rifles, trucks, motorcycles and so on...I run what I think is the best.

I shoot the PRS because it is the only brand currently. Like you guys said, competition breeds excellence. If there is a better series, I will shoot that. I think this may be the better brand, and you have asked for help. We are all here trying to make a better brand, are we not?

When we were discussing scoring, I brought up Vegas as an example to help adjust your scoring model. Ultimately the scoring got adjusted to something that is better and makes more sense. A lot of what you read on the internet or in a text message, tone and intent gets misinterpreted. I was never defensive of Vegas, and I realize that we represent an entire region of the county out of default and necessity. I do admit to getting defensive of AZ, and a couple of the guys that have given input. But that is over, and your model is looking pretty good.

My point about the muzzle velocity/BC idea is that if it is intended to create some divisions it works, and as you have pointed out, can be adjusted. If it is intended to help the new shooter, I don't think it will, and it seems that a lot of the other guys have been posting similar thoughts. I would love to see some kind of division to distribute some of the wealth to the newer guys. Here in Vegas, we followed AZ's idea of raffling off the table to do just that. If there was a better way, we would certainly go to that.

I have given an idea on that subject, and I see your point about a new shooter shooting the SHC. The rodeo guy's percentage idea is solid, distributes the wealth, and doesn't promote sand bagging. I have shot in some pistol/3-gun shoots that did distribute prizes in the same fashion. This idea also does not bring attention to some one being "new", and does not create another official division.

In one of our previous exchanges, you told me you were not looking for me to kiss your ass. I have not, but have given you honest input (at least as I see it). I am a man of my word if you don't want me here, I won't come back.

Ty
 
Just thinking out loud here, but can this be simplified? Think of it this way - the difficulty of a shot comes down to 4 things, more or less:

-Range
-Target Size
-Position
-Time

You could give every shot in the course of fire a difficulty score:
Range:
-Short (up to 300): 1pt
-Medium(up to 600): 2pt
-Long (>600): 3pt

Target Size:
4MO or more: 1pt
2-4MOA: 2pt
<2MOA: 3pt

Position:
Supported Prone: 1pt
Offhand:3pt
Anything else: 2pt

Time:
More than 20s: 1pt
less than 20s to make shot: 2pt
less than 10s to make shot: 3pt

Tweak the numbers as necessary to make them balance, but you get the gist. It would give a rough but simple way to gage the overall difficulty of a match. The difficulty of the course would be an average of the the difficulty scores for each shot. Every match would have a difficulty score between 4 and 12.

I might be missing something huge, but just wanted to float that.

I like this simplified version of it ... I would make some minor tweaks to the time and maybe the distances but otherwise I think it is a good improvement
 
I like this simplified version of it ... I would make some minor tweaks to the time and maybe the distances but otherwise I think it is a good improvement

Yeah, I just made up the numbers on the fly. I think you get the bigger point, though - it's easy to get bogged down in points for this or that, when what you really want is an easy way to gage the difficulty of a match. Having every match be within the same bounds (4 and 12 in the case I made up), makes it easy to tell at a glance if it was hard or easy without needing much context.
 
Wow, simplicty at its finest. Is each shot worth between 4 and 12 points? how would you apply this to a match of different sized targets, ranges, engagement times, and firing stance?
 
Wow, simplicty at its finest. Is each shot worth between 4 and 12 points? how would you apply this to a match of different sized targets, ranges, engagement times, and firing stance?

You average the score for each shot. That's the downside. It's a bit of work in a long match. (I'm assuming when the COF is designed, you'd tabulate all this stuff and figure it out, but it is a little bit of busywork). You wouldn't have to make the shots count the same as their difficulty score, you could make one hit = one point for determining the winner, but just use the difficulty score to give some context for how hard the match was.
 
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OK, so scored for each shot. This is a base score for simply competing. How would we score for the match winners? I mean each shooter would amass a large number of points based on this system. Would it be too heavily weighted towards competing vs winning? I seems to me that there has to be a weighting for match winners to amass a significant higher score than simple competitors.

Example:

Lets assume a match with 20 competitors. Match is scored at 35 for the entire course of fire. How do we set the winner to get enough points to make a victory significant enough point value?
 
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the scoring is being finalized but there will be a match offset based on the simplified adjustment as noted above.

It would still be based on your placing for scoring purposes. It maybe that flat rate score like noted a few pages back, that was a solid model with each match having the same number of points earned then basing it on your placement with a standard maximum number of points.

Regions

Northeast
NY
NJ
CT
RI
VT
NH
ME

Mid Atlantic
PA
MD
WV
VA
DE
KY

Southeastern
TN
NC
SC
MS
AL
GA
FL

Southern
TX
NM
OK
AR
LA

Midwest
KS
MO
NE
MN
WI
MI
IN
IL
OH

Mountain
CO
UT
WY
MT
SD
ND

Pacific NW
WA
OR
ID
AK

Pacific SW
CA
AZ
NV
HI
 
That region breakdown is great ! Nice thing is everyone's competing in similar environments within each region.
Well done !
 
Random thoughts at 35,000 feet after spending 5 days shooting with new and old friends


People want to learn on their terms and their comfort level



Most don't need competition to have fun, most just want to kill more animals or see how far they make a hit at steel

I would suggest more team activities or courses so friends can compete amongst themselves in a non competitive environment, like golf, there are scores and handicaps but side bets are made

To grow the sport, you need more long range access and rental rifles