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Rifle Scopes ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere
</div></div>

I'm curious on two things pertaining to this sentence.

First, you didn't say made in the USA, which I think we all know isn't true anyways, but can you confirm that they are in fact made in Nunya?

Second, you claim the PR scopes "are among the very best manufactured anywhere," based on what?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

ATI,

Thanks for sharing your side of the story.

Below are the issues I have with your statement.

1. MAP is "minimum advertised price" and the policy cannot be used to determine selling price. This is fact. Yes, Manf. and distributors have used MAP to try and force this for quite some time but that doesn't change the letter of the law which clearly states that at least for now it is still legal to sell a product based on free market capitalism principals. This means that a retailer can sell a product for whatever they want, even a loss.

2. Free Market principals allow for the market (read as consumer) to set the price or value of a good or service based on its benefit in comparison to the competition. Why do you deem it necessary to determine what is or is not "excessive" as you stated? Does your or PR's profit change if LO sells an optic for less than MAP? The answer is no. You may argue that profit per scope sale won't drop but that over sales volume will eventually drop because other retailers may buy less, go out of business, or stop selling PR products. Here is the big problem I have with that. WHAT ABOUT FREE MARKETS! Why should you or PR, by using policies like MAP, be able to basically pick winners and losers? If the big or small dealers can't change with changing environmental conditions and they go out of business then it is what it is. Survival of the fittest is the back bone of capitalism, or at least it should be and used to be but in reality hasn't been for 60 years. We are given equal opportunity in this country not equal outcome. This whole concepts, which many of us have been throwing a fit about for years, smacks of just another way for big business and government to interfere with free markets by choosing winners and losers, and the winners most of the time is big business through policies backed by the government! And I don't like it!

3. So ATI had failed to renew their selling agreement with LO but you still thought it appropriate to punish them without any conversation, request for change to their selling policy, or anything? I don't like it!

4. Your point about PR getting the raw end of the deal may be valid IF they didn't know about your decision to punish LO. If they did know then I have issues with them as well as I completely disagree with how they also chose to handle a valuable dealer with not even a phone call or request to change before the hammer came down. I have personally dealt with MAP for years on the business side and have been out of compliance due to having the wrong pricing sheets. I have never been in a situation or heard of one where a distributor or Manf didn't call first to find out the issue and explain their expectations before suspending or canceling a contract.

Here is where I do for a little bit sorry for ATI and PR. IMO the overwhelming frustration from members here comes from the frustration about MAP type policies and their anti-capitalistic tendencies, and how these policies were used to trample over values and principals for the sake of business. This kind of stuff rubs folks the wrong way and has for years but most guys seldom do or say anything. Then it comes to our world and affects or passions and hobbies and affects a good guy in the industry and the venting faucet is turned on full bore! Not making excuses for their actions by any means but they are likely getting the brunt of a lot of pent-up frustrations!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

*Grabbing The PopCorn*
laugh.gif
and watching
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rntobey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problemchild, I believe the ass-clown was hired by premier. </div></div>

Yeap, he was part of this consulting firm that "represents" them. They are Secret Shoppers (people paid to act like customers in order to evaluate businesses). I used to hate dealing with Secret Shoppers when I worked retail.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

This is America. ATI can set their policies as can Liberty Optics. We consumers can choose to do business or not with a company. I think you will find most here that have done business with Liberty will continue to so. You, Sir, have shot yourself in the foot.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Holy freakin torch and pichfork!
Ding ding...the bandwagon is leaving, better jump on before its gone.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Scott and LO, i have and will continue to send people his way. But, he got busted, plain and simple. He used to post prices in PMs, why did he stop? Because he knew if they were seen, he would get busted. I dont agree with how this went down, pretty slimey, but Scot knew if ATI caught him, he would be busted...that's what happened.

People can bitch about MAP policies all they want, but they are what they are. I happen to remember a bunch of people going on a crusade against Night force for these very same policies...yet, I think they are doing OK. Try to get a deal on a new NF...ya can't, they are the same price everywhere.

I am sad that Scott told them to kiss his ass, but respect him right to do so. premiers have features that you can't get on any other scope, that means that to someone looking for all those features, they are the only option. I wish LO was still the best place to get them, but, it is what it is.

The owner of premier may be a dick, I don't know and I don't care, I will never have to interact with him. He is smart enough to hire a kick ass customer relations rep...Paul...and I have personally never experienced anything less than exemplary service from them. The product and the service are what really matters and Premier delivers on both counts.

Scott, sorry you got busted, brother. Legal options may be on the table...don't know. If all these internet lawyers are right, there are options, but consult with an actual attourney and make that call. Best of luck to you, I will continue to be one of your customers.

OK, time to move on to the next dog pile...who is it this time...USO again?
For what its worth I will defend them to.

And...sorry if my statements offend anyone, but I still don't give a shit.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

ATI,

Thank you very much for making a very difficult decision a little easier. I was going to purchase a scope from Scotts competition (strickly because of the midway discouts) but now from reading Scotts thread and your response I'm going to purchase my scope from Scott. I figure he's trying to help hiders, I can help return a little of the revinue he's losing do to your douche bag moves!!!

Thank you very much
from a customer in the market.

Jeremy
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Staying mostly out of this, just one salient fact: MAP, though not well thought of by consumers, isn't illegal.

If it were, Apple and Bose and Nightforce (etc,etc,etc) wouldn't be doing it every day with impunity.

Not supporting ATI in this, I think they have acted in very douche-nozzle fashion.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Sniper’s Hide Forum Members:
This incident has been an unfortunate one, although I feel that the biggest loss is the support of the shooting community for Premier products. These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere, and I hope that the members of the Sniper’s Hide forum can put this argument between businesses behind them and go back about the business of engaging targets at extreme ranges.

Respectfully,

Andrew Webber
President, Armament Technology Incorporated
</div></div>

Oh.....and with that said, I think I'll make sure I look to you guys first for any needs.......That and monkeys may come flying out of my ass!

Douche-bags...

-Pat
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lizzardking308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These riflescopes are among the very best manufactured anywhere
</div></div>

I'm curious on two things pertaining to this sentence.

First, you didn't say made in the USA, which I think we all know isn't true anyways, but can you confirm that they are in fact made in Nunya?

Second, you claim the PR scopes "are among the very best manufactured anywhere," based on what? </div></div>

Based on the fact that when you tighten down your rings you hear an audible snap letting you know your fully engaged and locked down. oh wait.... thats your tube snapping from poor materials. Where do those materials come from?

How about the turrets freezing up in the winter months?

A bold claim to call them the best when they have some severe problems.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Keep in mind the audience you're playing to. We don't speak French.
</div></div>

This has to be the stupidest post I have seen yet.
laugh.gif
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtask</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"sting" operations to enforce MAP pricing? Then, if I understood the "temporary ban" that was immediately implemented, you're screwing over YOUR customers who had orders in through LO? Unfortunate all around.</div></div>

+1.
Instead of bashing things out, ATI decided to be pricks and punish the customers for a contestible legal and civil agreement dispute. so answer tho ATI: did you claim to be from the Hide to get the discount?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Scott is a stand up guy, I will buy from him again. Too bad, I was considering a Premiere scope.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

People like Scott mainly because most on the Hide knows he gives you the best deal.

Premier was nice enough to ONLY suspend his account.

Scott feared loss of business having to explain to customers why he is unable to fill their orders for Premier scopes and unable to give them the best discounts anymore. So he made Premier and ATI look bad.

ATI caught him "undercover" (which should be expected for enforcing MAP pricing) and Scott lied trying to defend his income/reputation of his business.

As a customer of course we like Scott. As a business with MAP pricing enforced I would see the issue. Premier's reaction is lenient and expected.

Premier in their response seems the most professional and reasonable.

Scott, well played, but for someone with such a esteemed reputation on the Hide I would have figured you would have taken the high road instead of going after Premier and ATI like this. Though it seems like the loss of income on Premier Scopes may be offset by the new customers who hate paying MAP/retail pricing and businesses enforcing of it by this hate thread. I think this was a poor choice for your reputation and character. <span style="font-weight: bold">Sounds like Scott's reputation is based on price rather than his character.</span>

Point is it is not right for Scott to end up being the sole source for Premier Optics because people know he is the cheapest. He is cheating his competition to grow his business. Premier needs to keep things even and fair between retailers so they have a larger exposure to the market.

Sounds like Scott has ruined his business with one manufacturer and likely others. Despite how much people want to support him it does nothing if he can't stock product because manufacturers are not happy with his pricing. <span style="font-weight: bold">You cheat Scott by not paying MAP, Scott cheats the his competition by charging less than MAP.</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">If you really supported Scott you would pay full price. If Scott really deserves the reputation claimed here he would not cheat his competition with pricing, but win with service!</span>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I will not do business with Scott at Liberty Optics.</span></span>

I would consider a Premier optic if I ever found the need and was in the budget for one just like any other scope in that category.

If Premier needs to lower their MAP, they will!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Never done business with Liberty, and will probably never be in the market for a scope that costs more than 50% above my mortgage payment.

If a retailer wants to sell a product below their own cost from the manufacturer/distributor, where is the harm to the manufacturer? Its simply not economically sustainable for a retailer to sell a product below cost, and $2500+ riflescopes aren't exactly known to be a loss leader product.

That said, a manufacturer/distributor should have the right at any time to terminate a contract with a retailer when the retailer violates their policies...just like a retailer should have the right to stop selling a manufacturer's product at any time, for any reason.

There's an AWFUL lot of emotion in this thread...and I can't help but think Scott @ Liberty posted his original thread knowing full well the hornet's nest that would get stirred up against Premier. He's using the power of the customer (and the internet) to apply pressure to a manufacturer he's at odds with that he himself simply cannot.

A savvy, if not somewhat dramatic, action.

This all could have been kept under wraps as a business transaction between two parties...but Scott made the disagreement public and as they say, that is that.

I don't fault the manufacturer or distributor for coming on here to defend themselves; if I saw a whole bunch of people pissed off about a business decision that really doesn't concern them I'd probably do the same thing.

In the end, consumers will vote with their wallets and only time will tell if "The Great Liberty/Premier Debacle of 2011" has a negative impact on anybody other than the blood pressure of a few Sniper's Hide members.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mohonri</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">You cheat Scott by not paying MAP, Scott cheats the his competition by charging less than MAP.</span></div></div>

That's like saying you cheat Safeway by paying a little less for soda or water at Costco or by getting a better sale price on a laptop from Fry's instead of Best Buy. Gimme a break.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In the end, consumers will vote with their wallets and only time will tell if "The Great Liberty/Premier Debacle of 2011" has a negative impact on anybody other than the blood pressure of a few Sniper's Hide members. </div></div>

I don't think it'll put a permanent hamper on anything. People have short term memories.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

If there is a MAP on it then YES it is cheating!

The way to avoid the whole MAP and price-matching issue is what the big retailers do... They have their OWN MODEL version so they can charge less and not get other retailers pissed because they don't have to price-match it since its technically a different model!

Liberty Optics could have easily asked for a Hide Specific model version that he could sell exclusively!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheOneTwo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Keep in mind the audience you're playing to. We don't speak French.
</div></div>

This has to be the stupidest post I have seen yet.
laugh.gif
</div></div>

Hint - a Canadian businessman lecturing an American audience on being an "International Distributor". Ever been to Quebec?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

ATI knows they shit in their mess kit
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You, sir, are a f*cking idiot and should seriously consider playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol. </div></div>

I'm glad we are all sticking to mature rebuttal. Way to make your point in an effective and persuasive way.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ATI</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Sniper’s Hide Forum Members:

In conjunction with Premier, we set Minimum Advertised Pricing that would support the business model. The MAP we set is certainly not excessive for a product of this quality and is in fact as low as we dared in order to keep the business healthy. From the beginning we received complaints that one or two Dealers were selling the product at a profit margin that was below that which was required by the majority to pay rent, hire employees and do the advertising required to stay in business.

In order to not lose the Dealers that buy the majority of the Premier products from us, we had to enforce the Minimum Advertised Price policy that we have in place. To That end, certain Dealers, in exchange for our very lowest pricing, were asked to sign a document that assured us that they were adhering to the policy.
Andrew Webber
President, Armament Technology Incorporated

</div></div>

I'm just simply going to have to say you just confessed to being a liar and an evil unethical greedy corporate suit. You clearly state "Minimum Advertised Price" which Scott at Liberty Optics clearly stuck by, even when your backstabbing snake in the grass called him up for a scope he quoted the normal price. Then upon much begging and pleading and pretending to be a part of our shooting community he agreed to give a discount to someone verbally.

You may be evil enough to try to say that giving someone a handshake and a discount privately is "Advertising" but normal people don't see it that way.

What you are trying to do is set a Minimum Selling Price and viciously enforce it while trying to pretend you do not.

Minimum selling prices are illegal in many countries and I guess it's time we work on that here to deal with the likes of you.

People like you are why we need consumer protection laws, strong anti trust laws and why we should all work hard to get vertical price fixing made illegal in this country.

I will do as much as I personally can to make sure I persuade as many people as possible to never buy anything that your evil company has it's hands in.

The fact is, Scott abided exactly by a Minimum Advertised Price, You chose to stab him in the back to satisfy some other more greedy dealers that were upset that maybe he gave some discounts if you asked him really nice in person.

Your shortsighted greed has done far more harm to the PH brand than you will ever be willing to admit.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rntobey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problemchild, I believe the ass-clown was hired by premier. </div></div>

My bad wrong ass-clown in a pack of ass-clowns.

So let me get this straight. ATI, a non-American company from a Liberal ANTI-GUN country, is destroying American businesses?

Do we know if ATI gives political donations to the Anti-Gun politicians or are we able to find that out?
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inogame</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You, sir, are a f*cking idiot and should seriously consider playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol. </div></div>

I'm glad we are all sticking to mature rebuttal. Way to make your point in an effective and persuasive way. </div></div>

Thank you.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I don't have a dog in this fight. I have not ever purchased from Liberty nor have I any plan to buy something from them or deal with ATI. My question is that since ATI has a MAP price and that was known by Liberty is the fact that Libery was advertising ATI products at below MAP pricing without giving an actual price, would that be considered violating MAP? I know there was no specific dollar amount put on paper or in e-mail but wouldn't the fact that he was basicly telling people the pricing was below MAP violate MAP? I understand both sides of the fight and both have valid arguments, but I wonder how much support Liberty would have if he has offered discounts to someplace else and not Hide members.

Just my .02
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Since the information to enforce "policy" was obtained through "enhanced interrogation methods", this information cannot be used in Sniper's Hide Court.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Dear ATI,

If you have dealers that are being hurt or are in fear of closing their doors based on the number of scopes that were sold to members here, Please go ahead and file chapter 13!!!!

I further believe, if there was a true breach you would have taken immediate legal action as this seems to be your nature.

IN BASKING IN YOUR GLORY, OF ALL THE OVER PRICED SCOPES YOUR DEALERS CAN NOW PEDDLE TO THE UNKNOWING----- PLEASE do not loose any sleep over all the cut rate advertising you were gaining by Liberty Optics taking care of this small group of shooters. Might I add, through Private UNADVERTISED-SALES!

If you would of thought this through.... These members were putting your optics in ranges and matches nation wide. Oh wait a minute I think that is something that you PAY FOR!! I beleive it is called ...ADVERTISING.....BRAND RECOGNITION ...and wait....END USER ENDORSEMENT!!!

If you will check, I am sure that you will find your MAP was not subject to private sales. And sales conducted in private are private!!! A loophole I am sure you are working with the BATFE to close.

I did not have dog in this hunt until I read Scott's letter to the Hide and your response.

Needless to say I am disappointed. The only way your explanation would be plausibly truthful: Is, If YOU AND YOUR DEALERS DID ABSOLUTELY NO ADVERTISEMENT OR ENDORSEMENT OF THE PRODUCTS IN QUESTION.

I am sure there will be a surge on these on the used market soon. Maybe you can buy them cheap and do a refurbished run. This would surely increase your failing profits margins that were a result of this imaginary GRAVE TRANSGRESSION!!!

THANK YOU
CHARLES
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rundm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I wish Scott sold S&B.</div></div>

He will be very soon if not already.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I have bought from Scott (and spoke with him person at SHOT) and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">I WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT SCOTT AND LIBERTY OPTICS.</span></span>

Mr Webber, your business practices are slimy. PERIOD. I will be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">AVOIDING</span></span> and recommending <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">AGAINST</span></span> anything you and your company distributes including all Elcan products. I will NO LONGER buy any more Premier items and I'll make sure that everyone I know never buys anything distributed by ATI.

If Lowlight is willing to lower the post count for sales, I'll GLADLY put my Premier 5-25x up for sale. And to think, I was looking to buy another one for my new build.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rundm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I wish Scott sold S&B.</div></div>

He will be very soon if not already. </div></div>Glad to hear it.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnson184</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Consider your 22 year streak of happy customers ended. I will never again buy a product through you or Premier. You clearly seem to have MAP and MSP confused... And last I checked... Only one of them is legal. </div></div>

Two good points in one short post...
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Somethig tells me Liberty Optics will be selling S&B very soon...
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

is this going on, on all the other boards to??

Come to think of it...If ATI and anyone else are trully setting min sale prices seems like a class action is callled for!! Who's with me???
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

I'd hate to be the guy that has to explain to PR why sales have dropped off.

Money is tight everywhere and ATI/PR pulls this stunt...all I can say is that what you did to Scott has back fired on you ATI/PR.

ATI/PR, in case you didn't get the memo, you are NOT the only game in town.

Have a nice day.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unreconstructed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Somethig tells me Liberty Optics will be selling S&B very soon... </div></div>

+1 Or atleast he should. He'd pick up some normal S&B buyers as well as PR guys jumping ship.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Dear Mr. Webber,

The pricing policy of Premier is not really a concern to me, but what is has to be the fact that Premier is promoted as a Severe Duty Professional use scope. It is not.

The company may have taken great pains to use quality products in the production process however, the problems that exist with the scope will do more damage to the companys reputation.

Primarliy parallax issues, internal adjustments, striped gears etc. I feel that our complaints on these have fallen on deaf ears.

If Premier wishes to market to Hobby Shooters, Weekend Competitors, etc. then well enough is left alone. But please don't consider the Premier line as the best available anywhere. I would not trust my life and the lives of my teamates with a Premier Scope.

Sincerly,
Mark Henry
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy freakin torch and pichfork!
Ding ding...the bandwagon is leaving, better jump on before its gone.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Scott and LO, i have and will continue to send people his way. But, he got busted, plain and simple. He used to post prices in PMs, why did he stop? Because he knew if they were seen, he would get busted. I dont agree with how this went down, pretty slimey, but Scot knew if ATI caught him, he would be busted...that's what happened.

People can bitch about MAP policies all they want, but they are what they are. I happen to remember a bunch of people going on a crusade against Night force for these very same policies...yet, I think they are doing OK. Try to get a deal on a new NF...ya can't, they are the same price everywhere.

I am sad that Scott told them to kiss his ass, but respect him right to do so. premiers have features that you can't get on any other scope, that means that to someone looking for all those features, they are the only option. I wish LO was still the best place to get them, but, it is what it is.

The owner of premier may be a dick, I don't know and I don't care, I will never have to interact with him. He is smart enough to hire a kick ass customer relations rep...Paul...and I have personally never experienced anything less than exemplary service from them. The product and the service are what really matters and Premier delivers on both counts.

Scott, sorry you got busted, brother. Legal options may be on the table...don't know. If all these internet lawyers are right, there are options, but consult with an actual attourney and make that call. Best of luck to you, I will continue to be one of your customers.

OK, time to move on to the next dog pile...who is it this time...USO again?
For what its worth I will defend them to.

And...sorry if my statements offend anyone, but I still don't give a shit. </div></div>

Good post.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jason280</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Holy freakin torch and pichfork!
Ding ding...the bandwagon is leaving, better jump on before its gone.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Scott and LO, i have and will continue to send people his way. But, he got busted, plain and simple. He used to post prices in PMs, why did he stop? Because he knew if they were seen, he would get busted. I dont agree with how this went down, pretty slimey, but Scot knew if ATI caught him, he would be busted...that's what happened.

People can bitch about MAP policies all they want, but they are what they are. I happen to remember a bunch of people going on a crusade against Night force for these very same policies...yet, I think they are doing OK. Try to get a deal on a new NF...ya can't, they are the same price everywhere.

I am sad that Scott told them to kiss his ass, but respect him right to do so. premiers have features that you can't get on any other scope, that means that to someone looking for all those features, they are the only option. I wish LO was still the best place to get them, but, it is what it is.

The owner of premier may be a dick, I don't know and I don't care, I will never have to interact with him. He is smart enough to hire a kick ass customer relations rep...Paul...and I have personally never experienced anything less than exemplary service from them. The product and the service are what really matters and Premier delivers on both counts.

Scott, sorry you got busted, brother. Legal options may be on the table...don't know. If all these internet lawyers are right, there are options, but consult with an actual attourney and make that call. Best of luck to you, I will continue to be one of your customers.

OK, time to move on to the next dog pile...who is it this time...USO again?
For what its worth I will defend them to.

And...sorry if my statements offend anyone, but I still don't give a shit. </div></div>


Actually its not. MAP means he cannot advertise on his website a lower price than MAP, he did not. I cannot tell you how many websites (big sites) I have been to that say "place item in cart to see sale price" which is below MAP. Those sites are still in business and still selling the same products.

MAP is NOT MSP.
Click to expand...
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Try to get a deal on a new NF...ya can't, they are the same price everywhere.
</div></div>
Great post, I agree with most of it and I do see both sides, except I just bought a NXS and it was well below map. Everyone is selling below map, it's the nature of the business.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Don't care too much about this drama, but real amusing how this guy from ATI has never posted on the site before, creates an account to cover his @$$, sounds so politcian. He doesn't care about the site just out to save a dollar. Post something constructive for everyone, then I might care about what you say.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<span style="font-size: 17pt">WOW</span>.

Over 13,000 views on the original post.

ATI,

In case you still don't get it, you're essentially using your power and might to manipulate your market which ironically is what you're accusing LO of doing. Problem is that the overwhelming majority of readers don't see it that way.

LO is really just using a loophole in the agreement, which I'd wager is something you guys do every day. This kind of reminds everyone of situations where politicians get away with things that the rest of us would go to jail for.

I didn't quite believe it at first but it appears given the amount of press this is getting that you may really be screwed here.

It's been said that when you find yourself in a hole you should stop digging. Only in this case you're surrounded by a bunch of angry Hider's with shovels and unfortunately we do know how to read, and the definition of MAP could not be more clear to us.

Therefore,

Bailiff, please take Mr. Webber into custody and escort him to his cell.
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

No one that has ever looked through a Premier can say that it is a sub-par optic - it is not. But, the other side of the coin is how we feel as consumers about the company that has sold the product and that is where we start to have issues. This whole episode has tainted the Premier name as a viable optic for me at least. When I am looking to shell out almost 3k for an optic the Premier name will not be on my list.

In the end of the day LO didn't advertise at below MAP prices which ATI agreed was true. I am not sure what you have done other than let your anger get in the way of your business practices and made a very quick decision that will cost you sales in the future. This is business as many have attested to, and the consumer tries to get the best value for their buck and manufactures try to get as much money from the consumer.

ATI and Premier have made a bad business decision and I hope you take the time to revamp how you deal with your businesses and consumers because in the internet age - information moves quickly as you can see by the two threads.

Bad decision fellows - BAD!!!
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

Not that it has a whole lot of meaning to it,

but being one swede among many Europeans looking at this, and how it has evolved,

there is no way I or most any other European would buy a PR and or use ATI as a middleman.

We are the little guy/s in our countries and stepping on the lttle guy is not something we take lightly on.

As stated above, there are other brands of optics that will not behave like this.

/Chris
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MER0828</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't care too much about this drama, but real amusing how this guy from ATI has never posted on the site before, creates an account to cover his @$$, sounds so politcian. He doesn't care about the site just out to save a dollar. Post something constructive for everyone, then I might care about what you say. </div></div>

You can say ass here. We're all adults. You could even say arse, if you felt like it. Go on, give it a try
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

If anyone has a PR 3-15 they don't want anymore, pm me with an offer.... Money, mouth
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

i love this place......what happens at the bottom line and in the accounting books maybe be out of our control. But, as I read these threads here's the score on the hide so far:

LO: Business made by putting customer first: 1
ATI/PR: Business made by pencil whipping lawyer talk: 0
 
Re: ATI response to Snipers Hide post by Liberty

At any rate, one thing I think most will agree upon is that Scott is "the face" or front man of alot of the products we buy. To that end, he has done a first rate job. When you get that new optic or accessory from Liberty Optics, what comes to your mind first? The brand of the item, or how you were treated over the sale of that item? Personally each time I use one of the items I've bought from Scott, I don't think Vortex, or Borka, or Butler Creek brand, I think of the great way I was treated by Scott.

It's that image and reputation that ATI will never have and can't buy.
 
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