You should give that advice 2 years before you retire and print money lol
- Thread starter Frank Green
- Start date
Have to admit, those are shorter lifespans than I would say if asked the question, and for 6cm shorter than my experience has been. There's just so many factors that go into even deciding "when a barrel is shot out" plus what all actually contributes to them being shot out, a range is all we will ever be able to say about it and it will always be a big range at that.
I generally use velocity as the indicator. As when velocity drops, pretty much means pressure changed.
That doesn't mean the barrel is done for all uses. It's just done for anything you're not ok with another velocity loss at an inconvenient time (as you aren't going to be able to predict the next one).
Generally speaking, when people are talking about precision, that's when you start hearing things like 3500 rounds in a 6.5cm and such.
But, it's all relative and rarely straight forward when you have so many people with so many opinions.
Not a particularly useful contribution, but I'm kind of stunned that people have decided it's a good idea to cut your lands down to increase velocity. You are literally half shooting out your barrel before you fire it....
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And changing the land erosion rate, the angle is now quite a bit less than standard 1.5° lead, so your jump distance changes quickly. It's a transition back to a conventional throat way down towards the end, I personally don't know why anyone would do this myself. I've had a few friends ask me about the +p, and I do my best to steer them away from it.Not a particularly useful contribution, but I'm kind of stunned that people have decided it's a good idea to cut your lands down to increase velocity. You are literally half shooting out your barrel before you fire it....
There's people in this thread that literally do not understand what you just saidNot a particularly useful contribution, but I'm kind of stunned that people have decided it's a good idea to cut your lands down to increase velocity. You are literally half shooting out your barrel before you fire it....
LOL
I talked to the team Berger F class guys a while back. They all shoot our barrels. One of the topics we talked about was the bore rider reamer throats. I know they were either using it or did use it and I'll quote...
"Yes we tried it but gave up on it. The tune of the barrel was changing to fast. You go to a big match and end up shooting 300+ rounds in a week thru the gun and the gun is changing on you part way thru the match. We are back to using our conventional chambers."
The bore rider reamer is just like/similar to the +P design.
Sorry but if my 7 short mag caliber rifle in F class I'm only getting 600-800 rounds out of it normally and now I'm pulling the barrel about half of that.... that means by the time I get the new barrel zeroed, loads worked up on it.... even if I do it in say 50 rounds and I go to a big match and have to shoot 300ish or so rounds thru the barrel and the accuracy is changing part way thru the match. You won't see me messing with it. The last thing I want is my guns accuracy changing on me in the middle of a match.
The bore rider reamer stuff was also tried by the short range BR guys. To my knowledge right now... none of the top shooters are using it.
All joking aside, the issue becomes where the advice coming from/credentials.
The internet allows anybody with social media to be a expert.
the casual reader or truly interested has a crap shoot when choosing what advice or opinion is valid or at a minimum based on vast experience.
This site is no different…on one thread members will rave about a certain smith/mfg yet on a similar thread the same members will stomp their feet… the same “expert” is now incorrect.
Yet they still purchase and follow advice from said smith/mfg.
Ex..how could members take your general barrel life numbers as gospel yet argue about cleaning methods and frequency??
Either they are confused or cannot understand that they are both related.
Hurts the brain
There are so many variables in play how can anyone just blame the barrel or the barrels steel without eliminating every other culprit? I mean I can think of a few dozens variables just off the top of my head that will effect barrel life. And thats not even getting into the difference between what a Benchrest-Fclass-PRS-Sniper-Hobyiest-Hunter-Fudd would consider a barrel that is "shot out" and needing replacement.
Frank always seems like a strait shooter, and I have shot a ton of his barrels, chambered by a number of smiths, and they have all shot very well. Most people I talk to have the same experiences, and there is a reason Barltien has the amazing reputation it does. He comes here and tries to explain processes and issues with the group, something no other manufacture does. There are a few different manufactures I will shoot (and adding another one based on how the G barrels I ordered turn out) and many I wont.
It really needs to be a apples to apples comparison (same reamer, same ammo, same shooting conditions, same firing schedule,ect) to even be able to make a reasonable comparison. Otherwise its just a wild as guess at best.
Frank always seems like a strait shooter, and I have shot a ton of his barrels, chambered by a number of smiths, and they have all shot very well. Most people I talk to have the same experiences, and there is a reason Barltien has the amazing reputation it does. He comes here and tries to explain processes and issues with the group, something no other manufacture does. There are a few different manufactures I will shoot (and adding another one based on how the G barrels I ordered turn out) and many I wont.
It really needs to be a apples to apples comparison (same reamer, same ammo, same shooting conditions, same firing schedule,ect) to even be able to make a reasonable comparison. Otherwise its just a wild as guess at best.
Or "neck tension" when really what they're talking about is interference fits.
@Frank Green , thanks for your posts, knowledge sharing, and willingness to nip stupid shit in the ass proper quick. Lord knows this business is far too full of ".experts"
You and Deathbeforedismount and others are all welcome!
It's also interesting where guys will tell us the barrel quit shooting and it's done or it died prematurely..... then we can show them that they are not cleaning it good enough or properly or that they damaged the crown etc.....
Then you get it cleaned up and the accuracy comes right back.... and you get the deer in the headlights look on the face looking back at ya! LOL!
I cannot even count how many times the above or things similar has happened.
Thanks first off!
I love it when I'm told the below quote....
The apples to apples thing I use a lot. Guys will make a comment..." oh... brand X barrel out lasts or shoots faster than brand B barrel!"
Oh really.... here are some variables....
well do you know to the 4th decimal place the bore and groove size dimensions?
Same chamber reamer spec used?
Same lot of material?
Same lot of ammo or load being run thru the barrels?
Same cleaning procedure?
If you cannot say yes to all of the above.... there is no way you are comparing apples to apples.
Helping a local Swat team guy out... if he reads this post I'm not picking on him! We do build or maintain several local dept rifles for the teams.
His problem was all of a sudden with a new lot of ammo the gun started blowing primers. Hard bolt lift etc...
So he brings the gun into the shop. He cleaned it the night before. Rifle already has in excess of 1k rounds fired on it with no issues. I bore scoped the barrel and double checked and measured the bore and groove size. Everything spot on the money. Nothing weird looking or abnormal fouling. He knows how to clean a gun etc... and shoots matches as well.
Prior to bringing it in the gun had 200 rounds on it without cleaning.
I asked him to bring in the ammo they are currently issued as well and I would get a hold of the guys at the ammo place as we make test barrels for them and get the load details but I needed the ammo/lot number off the box. I'd ask the ammo maker the type of powder, pressure testing data etc...and see if we can figure anything out as well.
He took the rifle back out to the range yesterday. Ran 50 rounds thru it. Says he is dumbfounded. No problems. No pierced primers, no heavy bolt lift etc...
The ammo maker gave me the details on that lot of ammo.
I think it is the powder that was used in that lot and that after x amount of rounds without cleaning that the carbon fouling is building pressure.
So I have a call into them today with the details and asking them more questions so hopefully we can learn from it. If it is the powder.....then this brings us back to cleaning and gun maintenance and it's not that the barrel puked early or it's bad steel or was bad ammo etc.... all variables that we all deal with.
His problem was all of a sudden with a new lot of ammo the gun started blowing primers. Hard bolt lift etc...
So he brings the gun into the shop. He cleaned it the night before. Rifle already has in excess of 1k rounds fired on it with no issues. I bore scoped the barrel and double checked and measured the bore and groove size. Everything spot on the money. Nothing weird looking or abnormal fouling. He knows how to clean a gun etc... and shoots matches as well.
Prior to bringing it in the gun had 200 rounds on it without cleaning.
I asked him to bring in the ammo they are currently issued as well and I would get a hold of the guys at the ammo place as we make test barrels for them and get the load details but I needed the ammo/lot number off the box. I'd ask the ammo maker the type of powder, pressure testing data etc...and see if we can figure anything out as well.
He took the rifle back out to the range yesterday. Ran 50 rounds thru it. Says he is dumbfounded. No problems. No pierced primers, no heavy bolt lift etc...
The ammo maker gave me the details on that lot of ammo.
I think it is the powder that was used in that lot and that after x amount of rounds without cleaning that the carbon fouling is building pressure.
So I have a call into them today with the details and asking them more questions so hopefully we can learn from it. If it is the powder.....then this brings us back to cleaning and gun maintenance and it's not that the barrel puked early or it's bad steel or was bad ammo etc.... all variables that we all deal with.
Its ironic that the shooter is part of every shot with a gun, but never considers that they could be the cause of a problem when a problem occurs.....!
This is almost always the case.
Look at any thread here on SH (or elsewhere), about a gun not shooting properly. There's a hyper-awareness around the gear, but rarely if ever any attention given to the shooter and how they may be the source of the problems.
We see it at matches all the time, Guys show up to zero/practice day and start blasting away. Shooting 20-30 at zero target then just start blasting steel without more than a few minutes to cool down. A typical match is shoot about 10 rounds in 2 minutes or less then the gun sits for 30-45 minutes before you shoot again. 100 rounds a day give or take over 6-8 hours. Ive mentioned to a few guys they might want to left their barrels rest so they don't burn it up. They look at me like I'm crazy then wonder why they are getting like a half or 2/3 the barrel life everyone else is. They are literally cooking their barrels, and i would bet money they are some of the same people that bitch about barrel life.
They could be using the same barrel, reamer, smith, load ect as someone else, and end up with half the barrel life. That is only ONE variable at play. Then you get the guys who love to run on ragged edge of pressure and wonder why their shit locks up like a vault in the rain.
believe it or not we do say every once in a while....
"maybe it's you!"
Not trying to be mean or anything!
Just today a guy talked to Mark here (Mark shoots 6ppc BR guns and has for like 30 years and currently holds 2 or 3 world records) and says to him. Hey my 6PPC barrel has 800 rounds on it and it no longer shoots .1xx's and low .2xx's. So Mark got into it deep with him. Guess what... not cleaning it good enough as he did confirm but didn't know he had a carbon ring build up in the throat, has never changed the tune of the load... powder charge or bullet seating depth etc... and the comment back was... "oh you need to do that?"
This just happened like 2 hours ago and Mark spent probably an hour on the phone with the guy.
Guys have come up to me at a match.... "hey my gun is blowing up bullets and I just blew up two on the 2nd stage today?" I say, yea o.k.? Then I get... what do you think?
So you I ask... so you shot it yesterday and put a 120 rounds on it right? The answer is yes. Then I ask.... did you clean it last night before coming to the 2nd day of the match with now about a 140+ rounds on it? Usually I get... No. Hears your sign!
Probably not the bullets so don't blame the bullet maker right away and it's probably not the barrel. It most likely because of no maintenance.
I'm not picking on the PRS guys here. I've seen it in F class and BR as well and even in 22RF guns. Yes the 22RF guns isn't blowing up the bullets but the complaint is the accuracy is off or it's throwing fliers. Just told a 22rf BR shooter about a month ago how to clean his RF. Goes to the next match and wins it again but the prior match he came in 5th.
He couldn't figure out why he was getting the fliers. Need to start billing people for Shop rate +OH costs. It takes a special breed of paitence to deal with people like that all day every day. Kudos to finding a great staff who can handle it!
I’ll have to give him some shit now. He usually talks to me before taking it to the top
I've always found these cases interesting - so many consumers aren't aware (and in fairness, they don't need to be by any stretch), that ammunition manufacturers often use a blend, and depending on powder availably, maybe that blend changes, but still results in the same maximum average pressure, velocity and so on.
As you aptly point out, fouling maybe changed if the powder blend changed -- same manufacturing standards adhered to, acceptable pressure, velocity and so on, but alas an outcome that leads to some major head scratching!
I wasn't picking on the Swat guy!I’ll have to give him some shit now. He usually talks to me before taking it to the top
It's just a recent example of things that happen and sometimes your trying to pin down what is going on but your scratching your head.
If it is the powder that's doing it.... this just a way we are learning about it.
Are you guys trying to say that cutting/machining the same material/blank to different specifications, subjecting it to different loading/pressure/heat cycles, different maintenance, and then assessing performance according to different standards changes the effective service life? That's fucking bonkers... Next you're gonna tell me that not every manufactured part/system is the same...
Second, we all know that if the rifle hasn't blown the primer or destroyed the case, the proper thing to do is proclaim "no pressure signs" and keep on trucking. Burning more powder and getting more velocity? Must be magic! Definitely not increased pressure, heat, and accelerated wear (as well as a potential risk to the equipment/shooter).
Lastly, and it pains me to even bring this up, we all know that cleaning is a myth - foisted on an unsuspecting shooting public by evil ammunition and gun/barrel makers that are trying to mislead their customers into thinking that fouling and corrosion are real threats to the performance of their equipment and not some imaginary boogey man.
Second, we all know that if the rifle hasn't blown the primer or destroyed the case, the proper thing to do is proclaim "no pressure signs" and keep on trucking. Burning more powder and getting more velocity? Must be magic! Definitely not increased pressure, heat, and accelerated wear (as well as a potential risk to the equipment/shooter).
Lastly, and it pains me to even bring this up, we all know that cleaning is a myth - foisted on an unsuspecting shooting public by evil ammunition and gun/barrel makers that are trying to mislead their customers into thinking that fouling and corrosion are real threats to the performance of their equipment and not some imaginary boogey man.
I have one of your barrels in 6GT. I'm running a mild'ish hot load with H4350. In less than 100 rounds after cleaning I started getting heavy pressure signs. I looked inside of it and there was more hard carbon than I've ever seen. It took a lot of effort to get it out. I can't explain it, I've abused a lot of guns with thousands of rounds between cleaning. This one needs frequent cleaning. It seems like a powder, pressure, cartridge type issue.
What is your cleaning regime and what equipment are you using? I would look at that first. A precision bolt gun is not the place to abuse and not clean, I dont know how many times this needs to be said before people get it through their thick skull.
I am on my 4th Bartlien / Stuetesville chambered 6 GT barrel. I use Alpha Brass, H4350, CCI450 and Berger bullets exclusively.
Have never experienced anything like that. I clean after a 2 day match or after 2 1 day matches , so 300 rounds or so give or take. Never had a carbon ring, never had pressure issues and pretty much any load I throw together is sub 4 SD.
1. Take a boremop and soak with Boretech Eliminator or similar copper/carbon solvent. Jam it into the chamber and let it sit. Every few minutes twist it around . Leave it in there for 15-30 minutes. This will melt off any carbon/copper in the chamber, and prevent buildup.
2. Run 3-5 wet patches of eliminator down bore.
3. With a Nylon brush, soak in eliminator and stroke 20-30 times down the barrel
4. Run 3-5 wet patches again down bore. If you are still seeing heavy carbon/dark blue, run more wet and maybe repeat step 3 (although i have never had to)
5. Run dry patches until you are happy. I still get faint carbon after like 5-10 patches but who gives a fuck. You are going to foul it back up to get it shooting right anyway.
6. Take clean boremop and twist in chamber to soak up and left over shit. Take qtips and clean up any solvent beihind lugs, clean out inside and outside of action, clean bolt, you know basic shit.
Been doing some variation of this for last 20+ year.
Thats all it takes to clean a barrel. Doesn't matter which brand, what type, ect. Its possible to get a bad barrel or a rough finish that fouls fast and is harder to clean, but i havent seen that from the likes of bartlien, hawk hill or Krieger. They know how to finish a barrel and assuming you used a smith who knows what they are doing (many I wouldnt trust with a screwdriver) you either got super unlucky or its something you are doing/not doing.
If you run a dirty or carbon ring producing powder like varget, well you are going to have to work that much harder to clean. H4350 is one of the cleanest and temp stable powders out there, is easier to find in 8lb jugs, cheaper in store, and can be used from 6 BR up to 300wsm. I do pull my barrels around 2k but will start shooting 1 days with them. I just dont want it to shoot our during a match, but based on pressures I estimate these will go 2500-3000 before being shot out.
This is far better than I could say it. Clean it. Get that carbon ring out
@Frank Green, would you mind sharing your rimfire barrel cleaning process.
That’s definitely a crazy thing about 22s. I’ve shot crazy small groups with barrels that have 20 rounds after cleaning and ones with 2000 after cleaning. Just never know with them. After cleaning I always shoot a series of 5 shot groups in a row on paper and watch the groups shrink and settle in before expecting it to shoot to its potential
I'll quote a couple of different ammo makers that we talked about this powder subject over the last couple of days.
I'm not commenting specifically about H4350 right here but here is a comment about powder and I'll say it's in general....
It more so depends on the type of powder itself, the pressure and charge weight and bore volume that it's being used in. That seems to open up a can of worms at times as how do you or I know charge weight vs pressure vs case or bore volume when it will burn cleaner and or dirtier.
Back to the tactical shooter with the 308w and the powder that is loaded currently in the ammo they have. When he went out earlier this week and reshot the gun after cleaning it after the barrel had 200 rounds on it dirty and giving him pressure issues. He ran 50 rounds thru the gun after he cleaned it and no pressure signs, no popped primers etc... it ran like a watch.
When I was talking to another ammo maker yesterday about the 308w gun above.... and they have a lot of time with the powder loaded in that ammo. He said everything came together at one time. It was hot outside temp wise (think it was low 90's), 200 rounds on the barrel dirty, had a carbon ring built up in the throat, and even though the barrel only has 1400 rounds on it and looks good he said...doesn't matter...the throat is rougher now vs when it was new and on top of that the shooter ran it suppressed the whole time. The ammo guy told me he didn't have pressure numbers with a can on a rifle but the can is also keeping more heat inside the barrel. Everything came together at one time and presto. Pressure problems.
He said that's why when they are pressure testing box ammo they typically clean after every 50 rounds fired. They don't want to run into a maintenance problem with the barrel and have the fouling cause an issues. He said no matter what as the barrel gets dirtier and dirtier pressure will keep climbing and some powders will do it worse than others and again caliber and bore size dependent seems like it can amplify things.
Same tactical shooter above handloading his PRS rifle for the tactical class and using exclusively Varget powder and 550-600 rounds on his other rifle dirty with no issues and then cleaned it.
So type of powder and bore size vs case volume and pressure and temps etc... all play apart. You can get away with some stuff with one type but not necessarily another type.
Nothing really different then doing a centerfire with the exception of more frequently I will clean the barrel with 40x cleaner. That's what I told Dave M. here to do when he seen random fliers with his 22RF benchgun. Think he had around a 1k rounds on it with his normal cleaning procedure but he had never used 40x cleaner or JB bore compound.
I told him... your barrel needs a better cleaning. Gave him a bottle of the 40x cleaner to take home and told him after his normal cleaning get a patch soaked with the 40x cleaner. Short stroke the throat chamber area several more times along with 10 full strokes down the bore. Dry patch it out good and follow up with a couple of patches of Hoppes and dry patch it out again before shooting it to make sure all of the 40x cleaner was out. Accuracy came right back and his cold bore shot was also back to normal.
I had never tried the 40x until I started reading your posts . I use it just as you describe and it works great . I am now a 40x fan . Thanks for sharing that info .
Sorry I can’t stop myself…again
Soooo, your saying shooter should clean their barrels?
@Frank Green wonderful rumors that just remind me, I need to order a few more Bartlien barrels.
I'm certainly not Frank, and I don't even shoot rimfire, but the attached article (quite long but mostly pics) was posted here sometime ago, I gave it to a friend who shoots RF BR, and he found very valuable and that it changed his performance. He now follows the guidance therein.
I too followed Frank's advise and got some 40X which is very mild. I also got JB Bore Compound (blue label and not Bore Bright). Its a bit stronger than 40X but is suitable per Frank and that's been my experience too.
Just did as he said...Parker Hale style jab, oversized patch with the abrasive wrapped, ten stokes or so (need something to block the muzzle so it doesn't come out...I have a round sort of washer without a hole that I put inside a thread protector and that works...or back it up against a wall).
I don't use the JB very often at all...or even the 40X. I was never one to clean immediately upon return from the range....until Frank discussed it. After using the abrasives, I do so now (and no, I don't like it....but I do it) and my barrels are clean up much better with just solvent, patches and a brush and I have far less need for abrasives....all in my utterly non-expert opinion.
Cheers
Na math is easy people that understand the math…. Now that is hard to find
As hard to find as a 4 month old thread?
I ran across this thread about barrels being made with bad metal. I bought a desert tech srsa2 with two barrel converson kits. 6.5 CM and 7 Mag. During break in I cleaned them with wipe out. During bore scope I noticed etching near the chamber. Sent both barrels back to desert tech and they replaced both barrels and threw in a free muzzle break. What issue with Metal could cause wipe out to etch a barrel> I was using the spray in wipe out that you would leave in for an hour then clean with patch. I still use wipe out and accel with no noticable issues in any other barrels. Could have been premature fire cracking. Maybe 40 rounds max on both barrels.
For sure. I remember hearing about this new hot 6mm cartridge called a 6creedmoor. It was supposed to burn less powder than a 243, go faster than a 243, and have over 3k rds barrel life.....read it right here, lol.
No I know you where not knocking them. GTG!
Looks like fire cracking starting in the throat area. Hard to tell from the pics if there is any etching per se.
The cracking is on the lands right in front of the throat correct? If so that's all I see off hand.
Are you seeing something different some where else?
It extended 3 inches down from lands. Started after Only a couple rounds fired.
Hmmm? I still just say fire cracking.
OK. They treated me right and addressed my concerns. Replaced both barrels and the news didn't do same thing. So I'm good. Just curious if a bad lot of metal could cause expedited wear or eching. Frank, thank you for taking time to reply.
I always say.... if it's shooting good.... don't look down the dam thing! Shoot it... clean/maintain it. Enuff said! LOL!
