Banded Solid 375 Test Results

A

Augustus

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I fired a 375 banded solid bullet today at 1020 yds and 2560 yds. The bullet is 6.5 cal. in length and weighs 397 gr. It was fired from a 13-6.5 gain twist barrel. It was dead calm, three shot group at 1020 was .6 moa. I then took it to 2560 yds, verticle despersion was 1/2 min or so. Thunderstorms were developing and the wind was blowing from every direction at 2-5 mph, I held the same point of aim and did not attempt to correct for it. I recovered one of these projos that had hit a clay/gravel bank at 2560. It had landed point first and looked similar to a drill bit. It is very obvious it was still spinning at a very high RPM. I had a buddy stationed in a safe location at 2500 yds at he reported a distinct sonic crack when it passed overhead. The bullet is the ZA 375 6.5 cal.
 

groper

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

ahhhh.... this is gonna start another shitfight
laugh.gif

exciting times ahead and well done to augustus and noel carlson.
I guess the ball is back in GSCustoms court now...
 

Bluejazz

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Would be nice to see a pic of the recovered bullet.
 
A

Augustus

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Bluejazz , PM your E-mail address and Ill send a photo to you.
 

Gerard Schultz

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

In another thread which is now locked, Noel Carlson made comment which has to be addressed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What has been published on the web, by Lutz Moeller, is that a 50 caliber projectile which he helped Gerard design the nose on, was forthwith sent to one of the Arab countries.</div></div>

No doubt you are happy to perpetuate the rumour. Here are the facts:

1. Lutz designed a 50 cal bullet for GSC. It had an ogive that did not work. (Lutz has himself not made the bullet he "designed" for us.) His "design" was obviously not done in good failth. He reneged on a reciprocal agreement we had in this regard.

2. I therefore continued with the 50 cal design I had in progress. A local manufacturer of sniper platforms purchased bullets from us. They loaded ammo and took part in a demonstration in Saudi Arabia (I was told) and did very well. The demonstration was participated in by a number of USA companies as well.

3. The only bullets GSC has ever sent to any country in Asia went to Saeed Al Maktoum of the United Arab Emirates. It was a sampling of our first HP hunting bullet range and it was around ten years ago. He now manufactures bullets for his personal use himself. He is also the owner of the Accuraterelaoding forum and an enthusiastic hunter.

4. There are many inaccurate statements about GSC on Lutz's website. One of these is the statement that Johan Loubser (then of Somchem and now with a USA manufacturer) designed the drive band concept for small arms bullets. This is false and a figment of Lutz's imagination. It is of course the tactic of
some who manufacture drive band bullets, to disseminate inacurate information about competitors.

So Noel, your veiled implication that we supplied an "enemy" with the bullets is noted ("was forthwith sent to one of the Arab countries") as is the incorrect assumption that our product is shunned by the US Military. They investigate matters better than relying on unfounded rumour, you should know that.

Groper,
The ball has never been in our court. We have been going to 2500m since 2002. Noel is playing catch up and does not like being in that position. Life is tough......
 

groper

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

gerard, which bullets do you make that are 6.5calibers in length and are stable beyond 2500yds?
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Gerard,

You get upset when I make allowances for your English proficiency, and then you come up with statements like this:

"(You are) No doubt you are happy to perpetuate the rumour. Here are the facts:"

I think it is obvious, to any following the content of your argumentation, why the last thread was locked. I will not ask an apology for Anthony's libel, but I will insist that you maintain context;

- Anthony PM'ed his telephone number, on this board, prior to Shot Show to have me give him a call.

- I did call, and carried on small talk with him... mentioning, only tangentially, the <span style="font-style: italic">fact</span> that the rumour, as I recounted it to him, was being circulated within knowledgeable circles. I stand by that account. I also maintain that I have not participated in spreading the rumour... it was for his ears only, to utilize the information as he saw fit.

- Anthony morphed this into a public accusation, two days ago, that I reported GS to the ATF for selling bullets to "terrorist organizations". This is demonstrably false, and there is no way Anthony can not be aware that he was lying. If I was litigiously inclined, he would have some legal exposure here.

I could not defend myself without saying, in public, what Anthony had been told in private. You need to escape this victim mentality.

Back to the relevant issue at hand; Do you have a response to Groper's question?

 

Gerard Schultz

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Noel,
Must I take it that it was not you who posted as follows on the locked thread?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What has been published on the web, by Lutz Moeller, is that a 50 caliber projectile which he helped Gerard design the nose on, was forthwith sent to one of the Arab countries. Supposedly it "worked well", but the final destination was never specified. It was in personal conversation with another of Lutz's business associates that I was told this is the reason the U.S. military will not touch any of the PSR rifle submittals, utilizing the GS projectile, and are eliminated from consideration.</div></div> The exact quote on Lutz's website states: "Gerard later said, those Bullets went to Arabia and performed well, much better then all others. I have no Idea or Control on who got those Bullets and what was done with them."

So my statement that some of the 50BMG bullets were tested by a South African company in "Saudi Arabia", together with 8 other manufacturers, some of them from the USA, was shortened by Lutz to "Arabia".

This could mean any nation of the Arabian Peninsula. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates. None of these countries are listed as terrorist countries by the USA except Yemen. It then follows logically that the testing could not have been done there.

You now change Lutz's words to "one of the Arab countries" and "but the final destination was never specified". The clear intent is that GSC has supplied bullets to the "enemy". You then have the audacity to post:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also maintain that I have not participated in spreading the rumour</div></div>

Your policy of "admit nothing, deny everything make counter accusations" is not working with me so you can stop playing the spin game now.
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Gerard,

"Back to the relevant issue at hand; Do you have a response to Groper's question?"
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Gerard,

If you would like to talk about projectile performance, this is the place.

If you are dealing with personal issues, take it to your therapist. I am not interested.
 

Extremist458

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

groper,

Here it is. GS Custom Bullets built the 6.7 cal 295 grain .338 bullet 8 years ago. It flies perfectlly, well beyond transonic. Tested in the Brisbane sniper report 4 years ago... the 232 grain, 267 grain and 295 grain bullets all tested great with spectacular accuracy (exceeding what SMK and Lapua offered) to more then 300 m past transonic. This is a 1+B.C. bullet that has now been shot in many rifles, over many years, and it's from a 7.5 twist! It works. the 6 cal 355 grain .375, just like the 420 grain .416, just like the 566 grain .458, have all flown to ultra long ranges, from many a rifle, over many years. We are not new to this, we are just new to posting here.
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Anthony,

This was the question:

"gerard, which bullets do you make that are 6.5calibers in length and are stable beyond 2500yds?"

What is the answer?
 

groper

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Anthony, can any of the bullets you mentioned above like the 6.7cal .338 for instance, be fired at 3200fps muzzle velocity and remain stable thru their entire supersonic trajectory?

This is what seems to be the trouble with these long bullets fired from cases large enough to produce these higher velocities such as the cheytac case in .375 or .338cal... they are stable upto around 2800-2900fps but then beyond that, they dont work.

Noel is trying to prove that this previous boundary can be broken thru better design and better materials. I believe you are trying to do the same with your 414gr .375SP, unless you have different goals? Such as maximum range from a straight 8 twist barrel perhaps? seems whilst noels and GSC goals are similar, they are not identical...

So, the issue at hand, is breaking 3200fps with a 7cal projectile and have it fly perfectly all the way to transonic and preferably beyond.... So far noone has done this. I wish both GSC and Noel Carlson best wishes in this achievment IF it can be done...
 

viersco

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anthony, can any of the bullets you mentioned above like the 6.7cal .338 for instance, be fired at 3200fps muzzle velocity and remain stable thru their entire supersonic trajectory?

This is what seems to be the trouble with these long bullets fired from cases large enough to produce these higher velocities such as the cheytac case in .375 or .338cal... they are stable upto around 2800-2900fps but then beyond that, they dont work.

Noel is trying to prove that this previous boundary can be broken thru better design and better materials. I believe you are trying to do the same with your 414gr .375SP, unless you have different goals? Such as maximum range from a straight 8 twist barrel perhaps? seems whilst noels and GSC goals are similar, they are not identical...

So, the issue at hand, is breaking 3200fps with a 7cal projectile and have it fly perfectly all the way to transonic and preferably beyond.... So far noone has done this. I wish both GSC and Noel Carlson best wishes in this achievment IF it can be done... </div></div>

groper,
There are more than just GS and Noel working on high BC bullets at this time, I know of two other bullet makers that will be testing new designs in the near future. 3000yds supersonic has been done in my 338 Snipetac rifle, what several arms companies are looking for is a hard target rifle capable of 3500yds. With the current work that either company is doing, using a cheytac case will not reach these distances supersonic. You can only push the bullet so fast with the amount of case capacity the 375 CT case allows. If you start talking 3200fps with a 400+ grain bullet, (in normal barrel lengths) then your going to need a bigger case. While the cheytac case is great for what it was intended, pushing it to 3200fps would simply ruin the case. My 375 Snipetac will shoot faster than a standard Cheytac case, even testing the new GS 414gn bullets yesterday, 3075 was as fast as I wanted to push them safely. I could in all likely hood bump upto 3100+ but its not good on the rifle or the brass. The Mark2 bullets Gerard sent me work great in my personal hunting rifle, short and mid range tests were outstanding. Next test will be long range. I will wait until i finish the long range test before posting all of my findings, in a new thread.

Dave
 

Extremist458

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Noel,
We don't make a 6.5 cal bullet, we make bullets based off twist and velocity while attaining the asked goal (custom bullets for customers orders). The 295 338 (6.7) is stable past 2500 yards. Length isn't our focus, but that's OK.

groper,
The 295 is very stable at extended ranges, beyond transonic, so we have that done with...as for velocity, we have never tested it past a tad over 3000fps, simply because we don't have a rifle to do so. All the current shooters have LM's, so I cannot tell you. What I can tell you is the 6.0's have been tested to higher velocity, and the 414 was tested at 3100fps out to 535 with great results, but we are waiting on long range testing for further report.

One thing to note is that a bullet, whether is long or short, shouldn't be over spun. If you spin it too fast it does not nose over forward and fly point forward at those extended ranges. That begs for stability issues at long ranges, and when it breaks through the transonic barrier. If the bullet is still nosed up, the the forces acting upon it will cause it to go erratic and even flip...if the spin is high enough, it might not flip, but BC is less then that of a 45 Long Colt.

What we have done is provide detailed information on our website's Technical Data page showing precise details as to just that...stability at ranges for intended use. Please see the detailed pages on each bullet when you click on the highlighted numbers on the left. This is the reason we chose the 8-9 twist area for our bullets, and this is why every bullet has a sweat spot.

What happens when you get to these ultra long bullets, actually based of BC, not necessarily length, is that the bullet will work, but the window (sweat spot) of twist and velocity that it will work in gets narrower. Once you get to these limits, you have to find just the right combination for it to work perfectly. Oh, you can get them to work, but you either have poor accuracy or instability or not nosing over.

What was asked of us with this 414 was ultimate long range performance. That's it. And telling you all this much is more then I should have said. I have been asked not to say too much and solve the issues others have with long range stability, but as you have read before, I already spoke about spinning the bullets too fast. You simply cannot make up for design flaw with excessive twist...it temporarily fixes it, until you get down range. The stability has to be matched. Hence why you see the stability chart on our website. Hope that answers your question.

-Anthony
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Anthony,

Groper is quite right. It is the maximum launch velocity that best measures design stability, which is why the statement made by you that, "The 295 will work in anything faster then an 8 twist, and no gain twist is needed.", is misleading at best. If a projectile can not be loaded to the velocity potential of the case, you have a flawed design.

For example; JeffVN's efforts at working up this load with your 338/6.7 295 grain SP... :

"Amazingly, the last 4 shots, 1X each at 97, 98, 99, and 100 grains, formed a nice little .75" outside edge to outside edge roughly 1/2 MOA clover-leaf group on the target. The slowest load (95 grains) produced a velocity of 2,840 fps; the highest (100 Grains) produced 2,980 fps."... was for the purpose of producing a maximum effective range, which is <span style="font-style: italic">everyone's</span> goal. This was his disappointing experience in the field:

"The two observers that i had on the glass when I was shooting the 338 both noted that the trace (of the GS338/6.7-295 grain) looked very "odd" and then disappeared completely approximately 800 yards from teh firing point. They described it as a cork screw shape of trace."

If projectile "length isn't (the) focus" (as you say), everyone understands that BC will be the sacrificed in the bargain. You seemed to understand that prior to this post. Likewise, you realized that ZAs efforts to break the 3,000 fps stability barrier were considered a benchmark of design adequacy. Both the form factor, and MV must be preserved to have a viable system regardless of the ostensible "focus".

"One thing to note is that a bullet, whether is long or short, shouldn't be over spun. If you spin it too fast it does not nose over forward and fly point forward at those extended ranges."... This is a problem the ZA375/6.5-M is clearly not experiencing, so our twist-rate is correct. Obfuscating these basic design parameters with anecdotal references to shorter caliber-length projectiles, in larger diameters such as the 6.0 that you keep bringing up, only clutters a clear understanding of design progress.

 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Dave,

"3000yds supersonic has been done in my 338 Snipetac rifle, what several arms companies are looking for is a hard target rifle capable of 3500yds. With the current work that either company is doing, using a cheytac case will not reach these distances supersonic."... If ZA is one of the companies to which you were referring, you are only partially correct. There is no reason to abandon the Cheytac boltface in obtaining the 3,500 yard goal.
 

Gerard Schultz

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is the maximum launch velocity that best measures design stability</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a projectile can not be loaded to the velocity potential of the case, you have a flawed design.</div></div> You know this, it seems.

The questions are then: What is the velocity potential of a 338 LM? Was it exceeded in this case? Are you figuring that we will not notice your skewing of the facts to posture, make it appear that your efforts are winning the race and display your "knowledge"?
---------------------------------------------

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If projectile "length isn't (the) focus" (as you say), everyone understands that BC will be the sacrificed in the bargain.</div></div> Thanks for that Noel. Now we know that you grasp of the concept of BC is weak. It explains some of the other weird statements you have made.
---------------------------------------------

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a problem the ZA375/6.5-M is clearly not experiencing, so our twist-rate is correct.</div></div> Jeff said at the start of his thread:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle has a 32" (not including break) Bartlein gain twist barrel (starts at a 12" twist at throat and exits the muzzle at roughly a 5.4").</div></div> Dave inVA asked: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the GS solid require this much rpm to stabilize?</div></div> Your buddy groper replied: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no it doesnt, but he built this rifle to shoot the ZA 7 cal bullets, not the GS customs...</div></div> Jeff confirmed: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This gain twist barrel was not designed for the GS Custom solids,</div></div> We give the twist range, within which the 338295SP will work, on our site. Anthony has supplied the link so you have no excuse. It shows that the 338295SP was severely overspun.

The questions are now: 1. What happens when a bullet as long as the 338295SP is severly overspun? 2. Why are you ignoring these facts? 3. Are you posturing and hoping we will not notice?
 

groper

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Everyone understands that a bullet will only perform correctly when used in a system it was designed for, and if used outside that system, that its not unreasonable if it then doesnt work. No brains required here....

I also understand that you are now posturing to avoid my last question... pictures of these bullets have been circulated on the web for months now, there is no way you can expect people to believe you havnt tested these bullets beyond 535yds yet...

If they dont work 100% yet, then hey THATS OK! i also understand that these things take time, im fine with that...
 

viersco

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

groper,

As far as i know i am the only one testing the bullets for Gerard. I just recieved the 2nd test batch of bullets a couple days ago. I ran the close and mid range tests, 535yds to make sure they are stable before going to all the work of setting up targets at 1150 yds. During the summer I cant leave targets set up in the neighbors bean field, so conditions have to be right before i go through all the work. The wind has been wild the last few days and was hoping for some let up this weekend. The test at 535 was beyond what i expected, the group was smaller than any other bullet i have tested. I am hopeful the group size will continue as they go down range. This part of Ne we dont have the capability to shoot extreme ranges due to the hilly country side. When i get my 375VM up and running i expect to make a trip out to Wyo where i can shoot at a friends 3400yd range. Yes it takes a lot of time to develop new bullets and have the testing done by an independent source. What ever the results are i post them. the first bullet i tested did not work so some adjustments were made, the MK2 bullet is a bit different in shape and flies very well so far. I just report my observations as i am a gun builder and only interested in what works the best for my rifles and customers.
I know nothing about the bullet designs and how they function, thats way over my head so i leave that to the experts. What i do know some about is internal balistics and rifles.

Dave
 

Gerard Schultz

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Thanks groper,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No brains required here....</div></div> It seems that Noel does not see it this way. Possibly you could explain it to him.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also understand that you are now posturing to avoid my last question...</div></div> The last post from Anthony above covered everything I would have to say on this. I am not given to idle repetition and left it there. If the 375414SP is the topic of discussion, I find your following remark puzzling.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pictures of these bullets have been circulated on the web for months now, there is no way you can expect people to believe you havnt tested these bullets beyond 535yds yet...</div></div> The very first 375414SP test prototypes went out from us about six weeks ago. You must be thinking of something else.
 

groper

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gerard Schultz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The very first 375414SP test prototypes went out from us about six weeks ago. You must be thinking of something else. </div></div>

This photo was posted on longrangehunting.com by anthony on the 16th april, 2010
375414sp.jpg


He told us this this was your 414gr SP bullet. The thread relating to this can be found here --> http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/375-416-barret-51389/index8.html

by my calander this is almost 3 months ago...

I can appreciate that you havnt finished developing the 414gr to its full velocity potential within this time, but you sure as hell have been testing and trying it...

As for your own testing in south africa, did Dave Veirs smith you a rifle and send it over to you?
 

viersco

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

The first batch of bullets i recieved around a month ago, I was contacted by GS wanting to know if i would test their bullets. It took almost a month to get the first set of bullets, shipping from S.Africa is not speedy. Im sure from when Anthony posted the first proto type picture, it was almost 2 months before any testing started. Some bullets were sent to another company for testing, they inturn sent the bullets to me as they did not have a rifle ready to test with. The company special ordered these bullets for a new case design and GS did not have access to a large case 375 rifle to test with. So i offered to help out. When working with Military arms dealers and special ops, they can be very tight lipped so their designs dont get out too soon, some peeps just wait for all the testing to be done and then steal the designs.

No i did not send a rifle to S. Africa, i am using my personal rifle for most early tests. My test rifle has a standard chamber with a standard throat, it is set to shoot 350gn bullets and i am not going to change it to test a different bullet. To fully utilize the longer bullets you need to have a special throat or the bullet will be seated very deep into the powder colum. I am seating the bullets rather deep, The loads are not compressed but the case is full once the bullet is seated. ES and SD's are lower than 5 on all tests i have ran. I am running 148gns of slow burning powder and this is a warm load, not hot. Bolt lift is easy to just a hint of resistance. About the same as my standard loads for the 350gn bullets.(145gns of Retumbo). My new case design will have much more case capacity and a long neck so bullets dont have to be seated deep in the case and there will be a good amount of surface area to suport the long bullets. Short necked cases with extremely long bullets are easy to get out of square as there is very little holding the bullets. For military apps this can be a problem. hence my new case. I could of redesigned the cheytac with a longer neck as well, thought about it, but i wanted a totally new case.

I have 4 other rifles here waiting to be chambered and throated once i get the total results from testing and the final bullet design. The rifles have been here for a year waiting on bullets and results from Noel. The customers are getting impatient waiting and wanted me to go a differnet direction. In the mean time i contacted several other bullet makers asking if they could start working on a high bc bullet, one at my request and GS was approached by several other companies to design one as well. I have another banded solid bullet coming for testing plus a jacketed bullet design.
that can be used for hunting as well.

Some here think designing bullets is magic, punch numbers into a computer and Volla you have a perfect bullet. Lots of testing goes into it, just ask Noel if his first bullets worked or not. The first bullets i got from GS did not work in the test rifle, but i did not test them in a fast gain twist barrel. I have the same barrel here that Noel is testing with, just not going to install it untill my 375VM reamers are here. The second batch of bullets GS sent work in the 8 twist, so far. This project was started with the customer wanting a higher bc bullet that will work in a 8 twist barrel. Me and one of my customers was part of Noel's group buy from Bartlein, gain twist types. I went away from what Noel recomened in twist, i got a 16 to 7.85" barrel because i wanted to be able to shoot more standard bullets. The others were much faster twists. My barrel will shoot the Predator 350gn bullet to sub .5 moa at 1400yds. It has been the only bullet i have found to work in this barrel, 350smk, 370 RMB, 333 Lehigh, all dont group at all. The new GS 414 groups smaller than my Predators do, by half. We all know this is only a 535 yd test, but its a good "indicator" that the bullet is stable.

I just hope peeps here dont get to impatient waiting for results, i am going as fast as i can. I am only testing in the 375 snipetac for early tests so GS can test the design.
I feel we are way ahead of schedule on the new bullet.
Berger annouced its new 300gn 338cal bullet almost year and a half ago, then when it comes out its a flop, and boy are the natives upset.(they must of not did much testing?)
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Gerard,

"What is the velocity potential of a 338 LM? Was it exceeded in this case?"... I would say NO based upon Jeff's stated application:

"My <span style="font-style: italic">338 Lapua Magnum Improved </span>rifle was designed from the ground up to shoot some of Noel Carlson's ultra high BC lathe-turned, banded solid bullets..."

... Anthony's assurance:

"The 295 will work in anything faster then an 8 twist, and no gain twist is needed."

... The GS offer to resupply:

"Sorry about the wait. Really did want to get you those bullets before your brother arrived. We are so busy that we are 2 months behind. Sorry guys, but just cannot keep up, and we are not willing to speed things up and sacrifice quality. Once the shop here is up and running we will be able to get orders out in a few days, but that is still a little ways off."

... And the absence of any launch velocity limitation disclaimer on your website. If you think you are having problems with Jeff, just wait until someone with a 338/408 orders from you. (And really, are you telling me that the additional ~100 fps is just too much for your bullet?)

['If projectile "length isn't (the) focus" (as you say), everyone understands that BC will be the sacrificed in the bargain.' ...Thanks for that Noel. Now we know that you grasp of the concept of BC is weak. It explains some of the other weird statements you have made.]

Due to the fact that these projectiles are purpose built for the supersonic velocity range, I use a closed mathematical solution in configuring both the nose, and tail, which by definition minimizes total drag as a direct function of increased length for a given diameter. In theory, I could go as long as a ~9.0 caliber projectile before the gains in reduced wave drag were negated by increased surface friction. I realize the 6.5+ caliber projectile is a new area of experience for you, but even your simple secant ogive follows the same basic rule, all else being equal. I thought you understood this, and sought help from Lutz for that reason.

"What happens when a bullet as long as the 338295SP is severly overspun?"... This is what is called a complex question, not because it is complicated, but because you are burying a premise within it that is, itself, at issue. I dispute that there is an instability issue, germane to an 800 yard range, that can arise from "severe" gyroscopic stability.

"Anthony has supplied the link so you have no excuse. It shows that the 338295SP was severely overspun."... The calculation used to derive gyroscopic stability is not intended to imply overstability, only minimum stability requirements. The actual configuration of the projectile is not addressed by this equation, and further complicates spin requirement estimates.


Dave,

"The rifles have been here for a <span style="font-style: italic">year</span> waiting on bullets and results from Noel."... I understand that it is easy to loose track of time, but as of September 2009 you had not even installed one of these barrels, and when I contacted you, on December 25, I do not recall you telling me that anything had changed.

You have now added additional time to your customers wait with the GS experiment.
wink.gif


By the way, what is the caliber length of your second test bullet from GS, and is it actually still 414 grains?

PS,
What velocity did you launch it at?


 
A

Augustus

Guest
Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Dave thanks for the report, what velocity was the 1/4 min group at 535 shot. One of thr first prototypes I tested was a Za 7 cal 431 gr. It was crazy accurate up to 2600 fps under 600 yds, after that it would go end over end. Accuracy at low velocity is fairly easy to achieve. If you are above 3000 fps and seeing 1/4 min accuracy at 535 you may have something. I have an 8 twist and 3500 yds of prime county air if you would like to have the questions answered in the next few days. Just drop me ten or so in the mail. I will pay for them and tell you what they will do from an 8 and 6.5 exit twist. If you don't have any Iwould buy some directly from GS.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

This is a good thread.
So far what I have learned in this thread and in another that got locked is, There are two differant groups trying to come up with the highest bc bullet that can go fast.
Neither group can do it yet,but it is close.
They also hate each other.
Both groups keep measuring their " dicks on this thread "
I have popcorn sorry for the interuption.......
 

viersco

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Dec 18, 2003
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65
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

noel,
We talked several times and emailed, you were supose to send me bullets so i could chamber the rifle and test them. You allways had some excuse why i could not get any bullets. I expect delays when dealing with custom orders, but it got to be way too long. I asked you several times on how your testing was going as i did not want to chamber any of the barrels until i got a deffinate ans on what your findings were, i got the same ans, we havent chambered the barrels yet. Then it was i have to change the bullet design, then it was i am waiting for a new alloy, then it was i dont have a ffl yet. It just got to be too much for me and my customers, I am the one who has to tell the customers that their rifles are delayed, i am the one who has to refund money when things do go as planned. I was still interested in your bullets up to this spring when i had a customer cancel an order.

These rifles are all going to be exported to Denmark and Norway so they have to be right before leaving here, there is no sending them back to have something tweaked or changed.

Who lost track of time? When you called me this spring about your test shoot i asked you when i could get some bullets so i could finish these rifles, you said well i should have my FFL in a few weeks then i can send you some bullets. i never got any. So i figured you were not interested any more and i went else where. I am not the type to keep hounding for product.

The new bullet is 414gns, i sent them down range at 3075fps. out of a 31" barrel.
This has allready been posted.

I wish you well in your continued efforts.

Dave
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

This "new system" appears to have been in the works since long before spring, and you do not seem to have any problem chambering for a GS, but no matter.

What is the caliber length of the 414 grain?
 

viersco

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69
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www.viersco.com
Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave thanks for the report, what velocity was the 1/4 min group at 535 shot. One of thr first prototypes I tested was a Za 7 cal 431 gr. It was crazy accurate up to 2600 fps under 600 yds, after that it would go end over end. Accuracy at low velocity is fairly easy to achieve. If you are above 3000 fps and seeing 1/4 min accuracy at 535 you may have something. I have an 8 twist and 3500 yds of prime county air if you would like to have the questions answered in the next few days. Just drop me ten or so in the mail. I will pay for them and tell you what they will do from an 8 and 6.5 exit twist. If you don't have any Iwould buy some directly from GS. </div></div>

The velocity was 3075 out of a 31" barrel. I only have enough bullets for intitial tests. GS is waiting for my long range report to see if any other changes need to be made. After my report i will be getting more for the 375VM tests to see what the bullet will do when you push them above 3200fps. I have two differnt 8 twist barrels and one 6.5 exit barrel here for testing. 1400yds is all i can get at my range.

The weather pattern is supose to be changing and i might get long tests started.
 

shoot1760

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

NOEL, ANTHONY & GERARD......I mean no disrespect here to any of you guys...You ALL make a product for us consumers and we are appreciative!!

Here is the perspective from your customer...me

I have been following this bullet thing for sometime now and at times, it's been quite frustrating trying to match the barrel twist with the appropriate bullet.

In the end, most of my shooting friends as well as many gunsmiths I speak with, don't want to play with gain twist barrels. I know there are a few folks shooting them, but many in my circles think it's taboo.

Consequently, if you can produce a high BC bullet that will stablize in a standard twist rifle, you will gain mindshare and marketshare in my parts of the world.

No offense to others, but It seems as though GS really has something here with the new 414 MK2.

Some of you guys can mock the testing process that Dave Viers is currently doing, but know this. His results will be a true no BS assesment of the bullets performance, good, bad or indifferent. If it doesn't work it goes back to R &
D. If it works past 1,000, then Katie bar the door.

If this new GS bullets works, in due time you will start to see other field reports from guys like me and the GS 414 will be on it's way.....Isn't this the capitalist way??

zman
 

viersco

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This "new system" appears to have been in the works since long before spring, and you do not seem to have any problem chambering for a GS, but no matter.

What is the caliber length of the 414 grain? </div></div>


I guess you cant read, <span style="font-weight: bold">i didnt chamber for the GS bullet,</span> i am shooting them in my standard chamber in my personal rifle with a standard throat. If all goes well i will be chambering the rifles very soon for the GS bullets. (Gerard & Anthony sent bullets so I could do tests and get my rifles chambered.)
I will not build any rifle for a customer unitl i know the bullet will work. I need actual proven test results before i will recomend any barrel or bullet to my customers. I spend lots of my own money to test new barrels and bullets, when a new bbl company comes around i will order several barrels to test on my rifles, if they perform then i will add the to my list of vendors i am willing to work with.
I do the same with custom bullets, i test a lot of bullets every year, some for just my curiosity and others that bullet companies send me for testing. I dont allways have the propper twist or calibers on hand to test everything that is sent.

Out of respect for GS Custom Bullets i will not give out any details of their bullet designs. If you sent bullets to me i would do the same for you. I am totally independent
when testing bullets. If they dont work i say so and i posted that on the first design.
Bullet companies need independent testers who will give honest reports. If i post results that are skewed in some fashion, how will the shooter repeat my results. You see this a lot in the custom market, published data on how a rifle shoots or how the ammo performs. It can be a good market strategy for the company, until the consumer can not re produce the companies statements.

My rifle specs: hunter class
Viersco Custom repeater action
cheytac 5 round magazine
Bartlien barrel 16-8 exit 31" light contour / muzzle brake
Manners T3 stock
Jewell trigger
30moa base
Nightforce 8-32x56 R1 optics
total weight 16.7 pounds

What is this new system you talk about? The 375VM? If so its been on paper for several years, i allready have the 416VM on the market. I was going to introduce it with the standard neck length later this year. But after talking with Louis and wanting a larger case design i told him about my VM. When i got the first set of GS bullets is when i completely changed the specs of the entire case to include the longer neck for his purposes. So this "new system" is about 45 days old, it was introduced during the other thread that is now locked.
 

Extremist458

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Dec 28, 2009
82
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42
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Noel,
Velocity wasn't exceeded. The rest of your post is rather confusing and a little off. From what I do gather: I did say they will work in anything faster then an 8 twist, as this is what we have seen in every test over the last 8 years. Nothing has ever come up. One thing I do say is we have never had a combination of this high a speed combined with this severely over twisted barrel. Not bad for you, so it's fine, but we have not seen a test with anything like this before. Never heard of people telling me how a bullet is doing by watching it in flight though, or hearing the sonic crack, so, honestly, I haven't a clue on what that actually means.
As for absence of launch velocity limitations, we haven't found one yet, so why make one up? Just like everyone else here, we like to see this happen before we go changing anything. I don't think the additional 100fps will change anything, but again, I don't know how it will do when combined with that fast of a twist. Will have to see when that happens. And if it does, then don't shoot the bullet, right? If you try it and it doesn't work, try something else. I mean, come on, not every bullet works in every rifle, or our options would be very limited.

"Due to the fact that these projectiles are purpose built for the supersonic velocity range, I use a closed mathematical solution in configuring both the nose, and tail, which by definition minimizes total drag as a direct function of increased length for a given diameter. In theory, I could go as long as a ~9.0 caliber projectile before the gains in reduced wave drag were negated by increased surface friction. "
Um, news-flash! I think just about every bullet company does! Yes we all can make a bullet as long as anyone wants, but to make it work is something else. If your math was spot-on, your first bullet would work. In fact, every bullet maker would have these ultra long range bullets then! Why don't they? Because we are in uncharted territory, so no equation has been formulated just yet.

Then you go on to yet again show how much you just ignore the facts and say whatever you like, and I still think it's only to create a debate:
"I realize the 6.5+ caliber projectile is a new area of experience for you, but even your simple secant ogive follows the same basic rule, all else being equal. I thought you understood this, and sought help from Lutz for that reason."

I will say it again, we are not new to this, but rather much further then you are, and you obviously do not get this. The 295 is 6.7 and has worked at 3000fps for 8 years now. It's simple really. Then you talk about Secant ogive? Try looking at all 270 different bullets we make, and you will see a whole world of things you haven't done before, but to spout off that it follows the same basic rule...how about this: because it works man!

Thought we understood this and sought help from Lutz? Where do you get this stuff, really, do you sit at your desk at night and just try to drum stuff up? We did not go to Lutz, he came to SA to be a dealer for GS, and you know that. He tried to improve the bullets, but found that straying away from our original design only created more issues, hence why he never made a single bullet that worked! The only bullet he ever produced that flew was created by Gerard, and now you just lie for no reason. How about your correspondence with Lutz, which he then published on his website, about how you tried to change his bullets until he just gave up on you? Can't we just stop all this silliness man?

Now you move on to your rambling again, trying very hard to over word everything so you sound smart yet say nearly nothing. The chart was designed to show the stability factor at given twist, that is the data required. It doesn't complicate anything. Over stability is something that has been known about for many years, but it's not over stability, because the bullet works, it's simply finding the "sweet spot" that works best! Think I said that, sorry if I wasn't clear. Like I mentioned before, you can over spin anything to get it to work, temporarily, but it's not the best choice.

Then you start in on Dave. Move on. He is a good guy, doing just what any good gunsmith should, testing everything! He tests every bullet, and that's good! It's good for him, and it's good for this community. His opinion is very well respected, and worth listening too.

"You have now added additional time to your customers wait with the GS experiment."
No, you just made that up. He is only trying not to keep his customers waiting. I do believe you do not think about what you say before you post it. Or, rather, you think about how to say it, but not why.

And lastly, Dave did not chamber for our 414, he simply is using what he already has. And yet again, calibers of length is of no relevance, only performance. Take care.
 

Noel Carlson

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Sep 11, 2008
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Kelly,

"Taboo" is not a quantifiable limitation, and progress will appear only where <span style="font-style: italic">both</span> psychological, and physical, assumptions are challenged.

Nothing in this game is intended to appeal to convention, and ULR, like it or not, will require a projectile that maximizes supersonic wave drag reduction. This means long (6.5+ caliber), stable, projectiles. If the GS414 was <span style="font-style: italic">shortened</span> beyond this to stabilize from an 8" twist at 3,075 fps, it is not a contender for ULR.

This does <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> necessarily diminish it's suitablity for your purposes, and the issue is not one of capitalism.
 

Noel Carlson

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Anthony,

Noel; "I use a closed mathematical solution in configuring both the nose, and tail, which by definition minimizes total drag as a direct function of increased length for a given diameter."

Anthony; "Um, news-flash! I think just about every bullet company does!"

Wrong Anthony, none of the jacketed bullet makers do, and only one other turned-solid manufacturer, that I am aware of, does.

"Like I mentioned before, you can over spin anything to get it to work..."... Not a GS338/6.7-295 grain.
wink.gif


"And yet again, calibers of length is of no relevance"... Thank you for the response, this effectively answers my question.

All of this really comes down to field demonstration. I am content with that.

Dave,

"What is this new system you talk about? The 375VM?"... No Dave. Read Later's opening in the, now closed, thread.
 

shoot1760

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Jun 5, 2010
128
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Noel,

You can say what you wish about "Taboo" not being a limitation, If nobody's buying your bullet you're SOL. Not to make a play on words, but this is capitalism! Don't kill the messenger here, I simply stated that there are a number of smiths and shooters that shy away from the gain twists.

As far as your statement goes about the 414 not being a contender for ULR. TIME will tell. Sooner than later I suspect....

Cheers,
kelly
 

Noel Carlson

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Sep 11, 2008
632
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Kelly,

99.9% of the shooting public is unable to utilize a system capable of 3,500+ yards. This is not a high volume niche, but it is a very interesting one.

I do understand what you are saying, but this market will not be driven by the taboo beliefs of isolated smiths, trust me. Please don't feel that I was "shooting the messenger", we are simply stating facts from different perspectives. You will never see one of these beasts roaming the woods during hunting season.

"TIME will tell. Sooner than later I suspect...."... And in this, everyone can take comfort.

Best,
Noel
 

Gerard Schultz

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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Some comment seems appropriate:

1. The only people fretting about dates, unimportant detail and who did what and when, are Noel and his camp.
2. The only people running around with their panties on fire, complaining and phishing like crazy, are Noel and his camp.
3. GSC does not have to explain the process it follows or when what was done. It is not important - only the result is and when the results are ready, GSC will say so.
4. Noel still has a lot to learn and I think he is going about this learning process in the wrong way.
5. I still have a lot to learn and I sincerely hope that I am going about it in the right way. I need to be told from time to time. (Not by Noel though)
smile.gif

6. When a new set of goals are suggested, we will try to meet them and if it cannot be done, so be it. "Failures" stack up and if the "failures" are done right, it is called learning. I have "failed" many times in the past and will no doubt "fail" many more times in the future when breaking new ground.
7. GSC has more than 250 successful bullets in the line up of four different types. One line has the envious record of zero failures in the field since 1997. Who else can make that claim? We do not have a "position" to defend or a reputation to establish, only new things to do.
8. My point of view is that prototyping should not be charged for. We will not take money from customers for bullets that are under development. GSC will maintain that position regardless of what other bullet designers may be doing.
 

groper

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Sep 2, 2008
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

well said by all...

From now on, let the bullets performance speak for themselves, leave all the other crap out of it.

Dave good luck with the VM. you may just have to send one of those over here where the brass comes from
smile.gif
our ADI AR2218 powder might perform very well these things also... ill post what i can get out of my 375cheytac using this powder soon.
 

groper

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Sep 2, 2008
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

One thing doesnt make sense to me tho, regarding jeffs results using his 338LM imp with VGT barrel he said this; <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The two observers that i had on the glass when I was shooting the 338 both noted that the trace looked very "odd" and then disappeared completely approximately 800 yards from teh firing point. They described it as a cork screw shape of trace. After talking with some other folks who have shot the GS Custom bullets, in this case the .375s, I'm inclined to think may be a bullet stability issue, but I have 11 rounds left and am going to see if I can verfiy that for sure.</div></div>

Gerard, your response was that the problem occured because the bullet was severely over spun from the very tight twist barrel, resulting a failure to nose over.

This seems totally inconsistant with what was observed and doesnt explain what happened to the bullet he fired. Can you clarify this at all?
 

Extremist458

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Dec 28, 2009
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

groper,

Don't know much about that one, so I have to say that we will have to see it ourselves to find out. We'll have to find a time and place where we can get all this together and see the results.
 

Extremist458

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Dec 28, 2009
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

Happy 4th to everyone! And a Hoo-Yah to those that serve and have served, may God bless and keep you safe.
 

Mr Flannel

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Feb 3, 2006
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Re: Banded Solid 375 Test Results

I hope respective potential customers haven't bothered to read all of the unprofessional and personal shite both 'camps' have been playing out on a publicly accessible forum. The sheer lack of discretion on display would factor against a customer who needs a manufacturer that can quietly go about their business, from doing business with either.

Don't mind me, I'm just pissed off with myself because I bothered to read all of this - like watching a car wreck in slow motion