My next pre fit will be from bugholes or Benchmark
Probably the bugholes will win out.
I've had good success with the shilens but I want to try the next level up
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
My next pre fit will be from bugholes or Benchmark
Probably the bugholes will win out.
I've had good success with the shilens but I want to try the next level up
I reached out to Greg at Southern Precision since he offers Bartlein savage small shank prefits to see if he wants to donate a barrel for the review so we have a middle price point ($520 cut rifled barrel) option in the test.
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Thank you
Great test - just saw this. I have a Criterion prefit 6 dasher that has shot as well as any custom barrel I have ever had. Consistently 1/2 moa and less out to 600yds. Have over 2000 rds and its still shooting. Buddy of mine thinks I'm crazy for never using it in a match.
If you get a barrel to test from Greg at Bugholes/SPR, I have no doubt you will be impressed. I've been running one all year and it's been accurate and consistent. It's a Bartlein pre-fit. I used anti-seize for the nut, no locktite. About 1,200 rounds in on a 6x47L.
padom, glad you started this thread, as I am looking too build a rifle that will allow me to easily switch barrels out most any place.
I'm trying my hand at something similar on the "value" spectrum for my 223 trainer on my TL3. Picked up a cheap Shilen chromemoly 8 twist barrel blank on the second hand market, had it drop shipped to a smith who has experience with the TL3 action before. He spun me up a shouldered barrel without needing to see my action, just basing the measurements off the TL3's he's had in his shop before. My all in cost including blank and chambering/threading is $525.
Waiting on a bolt head and a few other odds and ends to get it up and running, but I'm curious to see how it shoots. Got some ELD-M 75's and Hornady 75 BTHP's ready to load.
Thanks for doing this project Padom, it will be cool to see the comparison to the Bartlein blank.
Waiting on a bolt head and a few other odds and ends to get it up and running, but I'm curious to see how it shoots. Got some ELD-M 75's and Hornady 75 BTHP's ready to load.
Thanks for doing this project Padom, it will be cool to see the comparison to the Bartlein blank.
So I decided to switch the second powder for the test to H4895 instead of 8208XBR. SD's have been high with all my 8208XBR testing in this barrel even though its my go to powder with single digit SD's in all my AR barrels. I got out today and do the OCW testing with both Varget and H4895 in the Shilen Stainless Select Match barrel. Im glad I made the switch, H4895 has the best SD's, velocity to weight ratio and accuracy of anything Ive tested in this barrel to date. No pressure signs with the higher chargers either. I will now select my charges from each of these 2 tests and load up 25rd each to test the Shilen at 300 and 500. Those 25 shot strings will be recorded over the Labradar as well. I will then post those targets and numbers and that will conclude my testing of the Shilen barrel. I have not heard back from Criterion but hope they get back to me this week. Greg said he would get back to me shortly regarding his barrel. Its going to be 7 - 10 weeks on the Bartlein barrel so I hope we get a CBI or Bugholes barrel to test while we wait.
Virgin Lapua run through 21st Century TiN Expander Die which leaves .0025" neck tension
Federal 205M
1.916" Base to Ogive (.006" off lands)
OCW Testing shot at 100yds over LabRadar from bench with Harris bipod and rear bag
XLR Element Chassis
Jewel HVR set at 14oz
Bighorn TL3 DLC Coated
Vortex Razor HD GenII 4.5-27x56
75 ELD-M Varget OCW
75 ELD-M H4895 OCW
Virgin Lapua run through 21st Century TiN Expander Die which leaves .0025" neck tension
Federal 205M
1.916" Base to Ogive (.006" off lands)
OCW Testing shot at 100yds over LabRadar from bench with Harris bipod and rear bag
XLR Element Chassis
Jewel HVR set at 14oz
Bighorn TL3 DLC Coated
Vortex Razor HD GenII 4.5-27x56
75 ELD-M Varget OCW
75 ELD-M H4895 OCW
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I just spoke to the guys over at Criterion and they are donating a barrel as well. They said they will get it started this afternoon and delivery will be about 3-4 weeks.
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H4895 has always been my go to powder, better accuracy, velocity and sd. 24.2 really looks promising
I’ve got two TL3’s. My first came with the Greg’s Bugnut system with a Norma Dasher and 6 Gap 4s. They both shot very well; as well as shouldered barrels. But if you use them as switch barrels, you’ve got to deal with head spacing. Having fire-formed and needing/wanting to get the head spacing precisely repeatable, it was too much of a hassle. At the end of the day, I had the barrels shouldered.
However, I have two Savages (16 & 116), and the beauty of Greg’s system is that you can easily get the Rock Creeks, Mullerworks, Bartlein, etc.... palma or Marksman contour. Costs a little more but I think you get a better setup in the end.
However, I have two Savages (16 & 116), and the beauty of Greg’s system is that you can easily get the Rock Creeks, Mullerworks, Bartlein, etc.... palma or Marksman contour. Costs a little more but I think you get a better setup in the end.
Greg (Southern Precision) is sending over a Mullerworks small shank prefit for the test. That will be it for barrels, we have plenty to test now.
Want to give a huge thank you to XLR Industries for sending over this package! I have both a XLR folding Evolution and XLR folding Element here. While I had a choice of which XLR chassis, I think the Element is an awesome switch barrel chassis because you just remove the 2 action bolts and pull the entire barreled action straight up out of the chassis. No tube to remove to get to the barrel..
Want to give a huge thank you to XLR Industries for sending over this package! I have both a XLR folding Evolution and XLR folding Element here. While I had a choice of which XLR chassis, I think the Element is an awesome switch barrel chassis because you just remove the 2 action bolts and pull the entire barreled action straight up out of the chassis. No tube to remove to get to the barrel..
Great that these vendors and smiths are coming together for this test.
I have a MDT HS3 chassis that I will be using so I want have to remove a tube either.
I have a MDT HS3 chassis that I will be using so I want have to remove a tube either.
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You don't need a special nut setup to run a Palma etc. barrel on a Savage threaded receiver. Locktiting your nut on will give you repeatable HS.
If you are trying to test whether a barrel nut is more/less/same accuracy as a shouldered barrel, you can't prove it using 2 different barrels because you can't isolate the barrel nut.
But I can already tell you the barrel nut makes no difference in accuracy. Button vs cut rifling doesn't matter much for accuracy either assuming both are well made. The chambering job and the individual barrel are going to make a much bigger difference to accuracy than the barrel nut or the type of rifling. And, I'd venture a guess that there were a whole bunch of folks that figured this out long before I did too. I wasn't aware that this was even still up for debate.
Regardless, I'm glad you are documenting your experiment for the group to follow along. Thanks for the effort.
But I can already tell you the barrel nut makes no difference in accuracy. Button vs cut rifling doesn't matter much for accuracy either assuming both are well made. The chambering job and the individual barrel are going to make a much bigger difference to accuracy than the barrel nut or the type of rifling. And, I'd venture a guess that there were a whole bunch of folks that figured this out long before I did too. I wasn't aware that this was even still up for debate.
Regardless, I'm glad you are documenting your experiment for the group to follow along. Thanks for the effort.
24.2g with H4895. I didnt do any further testing with the Varget load yet.
We are not testing if a barrel nut barrel is more or less accurate than a shouldered barrel. 2 Bartleins (or whatever manuf you choose) spun up by the same smith, shouldered or savage small shank will shoot the same. We know that.
We are testing how the popular savage small shank prefits on the market, Shilen and Criterion specifically at $345 ($420 if you want muzzle threaded) stack up against cut rifled custom cut barrels ($750/$800 with threaded muzzle) spun up by smiths at double the cost. There are many that say these prefit barrels are just as accurate, there are many that say they dont compare to a cut rifled barrel spun up by a smith. I have heard it all. The prefits dont clean up as easy, the tolerances are night as tight as a cut rifled barrel, shot to shot velocity is not as consistent....Others say the prefits shoot bugholes, are very consistent, and find spending $800 on a custom cut rifled barrel is a waste of money. This is what we are testing. We were lucky enough also to have a third option. Southern Precision is donating a middle price point custom spun up Mullerworks savage small shank prefit that comes in around $500 ($600 if you want muzzle threaded). That is priced directly between the Shilen/Criterion prefits and the custom shouldered cut rifled barrel.
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Alright I'm with you. It's a pretty small sample size though. What we really need is many barrels tested from each maker, without them knowing the test will be performed. Even then with load workup, no control barrel, and a plethora of other uncontrolled variables it's going to be tricky. But, at least test can be added to a larger group of tests where we could actually begin to watch trends emerge. I would strongly encourage you to put some thought and care into the tests themselves. Start working to standardize the way such experiments should be performed so that we can begin to aggregate data at some point.
I can tell you that if you get an underperforming barrel from Criterion or Bugholes they are probably outliers. I have enough experience with both of them to say with confidence that they shoot. I've never had a bad barrel from my personal gunsmith using a few different blanks either. I have had 2 underwhelming barrels of note. I will not mention names, but I will say that one of them you could probably guess, and one of them would likely surprise you. Point being, sample size is key.
Again, I applaud your efforts. I'm not trying to be a naysayer. I just want to see us note the results as individual data points, not herald it as the end-all conclusive study.
You are correct and I believe I mentioned sample size somewhere back in this thread..
padom,
Great test, this is something I think will be eye opening for a lot of people. I gave up on shoulder barrels probably 10+ years ago, as I found, through my own testing, that the prefits performed just as well as the shouldered barrels I was paying twice as much for. I have used prefits from Pac-Nor(2), McGowen(3), Shilen(1), and X-Caliber(3). All four brands have performed better than I am capable of at times. The one Shilen barrel I had was in 223 that I shot FTR matches with, and boy did it hurt some feelings being a 223 and ugly barrel nut gun. I have taken the other three brands out 1200+ yds and one of the Pac-Nor's out to a mile, all three were 6.5 Creedmoors.
I have a TL3, Bix N Andy Tac Sport trigger, Vortex Razor Gen II, all sitting in the safe right now, just waiting on the XLR Envy, and X-Caliber 6.5 Creedmoor barrel to get here. Some sorry SOB stole the first barrel they made for me when it was being shipped. I have yet to use a cut rifled prefit, but at some point would like to try one of Bugholes.
Keep up the great test, and I will be tagging in to read the surprise in people's comments by the results that I'm sure will mirror what I have seen with my own testing.
Great test, this is something I think will be eye opening for a lot of people. I gave up on shoulder barrels probably 10+ years ago, as I found, through my own testing, that the prefits performed just as well as the shouldered barrels I was paying twice as much for. I have used prefits from Pac-Nor(2), McGowen(3), Shilen(1), and X-Caliber(3). All four brands have performed better than I am capable of at times. The one Shilen barrel I had was in 223 that I shot FTR matches with, and boy did it hurt some feelings being a 223 and ugly barrel nut gun. I have taken the other three brands out 1200+ yds and one of the Pac-Nor's out to a mile, all three were 6.5 Creedmoors.
I have a TL3, Bix N Andy Tac Sport trigger, Vortex Razor Gen II, all sitting in the safe right now, just waiting on the XLR Envy, and X-Caliber 6.5 Creedmoor barrel to get here. Some sorry SOB stole the first barrel they made for me when it was being shipped. I have yet to use a cut rifled prefit, but at some point would like to try one of Bugholes.
Keep up the great test, and I will be tagging in to read the surprise in people's comments by the results that I'm sure will mirror what I have seen with my own testing.
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I don't want to derail the thread but I would think someone on here would know...will Northland shooters supply thread a muzzle or do they just have criterion do it? Trying to figure out the shortest lead time on a prefit. Plan on calling them tomorrow, just thought to ask in here.
I think they have criterion do it. At least they did on mine but it was a spec they had to order anyways so I'm not sure if they will one they have instock or not. I think he said they don't though.
I talked to them about this. They do not do that in house. All work is done by Criterion or Shilen before it ships to NSS. They said your better off having a local Smith do it if you want it quickly otherwise they will put in an order to Criterion for a barrel as you specify. Criterion told me their normal time on custom ordered barrels is like 8-12 weeks
I ordered mine right around the 1st of August, so, I probably still have several weeks, but I am looking forward to getting it in my hands. What do you think of it so far? By the way, it looks great.
Thanks guys, I thought that was the case but wasn't sure since the change in ownership.
Just put a Decelerator Pad on it tonight to replace the ACE stock pad. I really like it so far, had an original XLR years ago. Liked the way it shouldered and the grip, but didn't care for the blockyness and the tube front end. Almost bought an Element, but the proprietary attachments for QD and pic rails for some reason always kept me from getting one. The envy has it all built in....
Mullerworks Prefit arrived today from Southern Precision (Bugholes). Gonna shoot the 300 and 500yd groups with the Shilen next week then start testing on the SPR Mullerworks
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Great stuff padom. I appreciate all your effort in this endeavor.
After I have fireformed brass, if re-installing a barrel, I just headspace on that brass.
John
Plan is to shoot the 300 and 500yd groups with the Shilen barrel Monday then pull it and move on to the Southern Precision Mullerworks.
I'll be selling off some of them to recoup some of the out of pocket costs. I have other tests and projects waiting that I need to move on to after this.
Did someone mention XLR ENVY...
.
Waiting on my barrels and ordering an TL3.
Wow that's an awesome looking color scheme... is that cerakote? If you dont mind, curious how much that paint job cost and who did the work?
Finally got the Mullerworks barrel installed and 100pcs of virgin lapua through it so I could start load development and testing with this barrel. Here are the OCW test targets. This barrel is a hammer right out the gate. Will be loading up rounds from both tests for 300 and 500 testing. Criterion barrel should be here any day so that will be up next.
26" Mullerworks Cut Rifle Rem Varmint Savage Small Shank
Chambered by Greg @ Southern Precision Rifles/Bugholes
223 Rem Match chamber 1:8 twist threaded 5/8-24
Varget
H4895
26" Mullerworks Cut Rifle Rem Varmint Savage Small Shank
Chambered by Greg @ Southern Precision Rifles/Bugholes
223 Rem Match chamber 1:8 twist threaded 5/8-24
Varget
H4895
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H 4895 23.9 g center of node.
Damn
Padom,
What made you change the jump you were running on the 75gr ELD? Is it just you were mag limited with this barrel being throated longer?
Have you had a chance to try the switch barrel idea yet?? I am thinking trying something along those lines as well. I have a Tikka T3 with a Krieger 8 twist 223AI shooting 73 ELDM with good results to 400 with RL15 and the 53 gr. with H335.
Try the switch barrel idea? All of these barrels being tested I am switching on and off with a barrel nut...
did you get MV on the MW OCW barrel?
Its all on the targets posted above along with the SD's....
I was just asking because you ran the last ones at .006" off the lands for the shillen barrel.
It was suggested I start between .01-.02 off when talking to Greg about this barrel...When fireforming the 100pcs of virgin lapua in the Shilen barrel before starting the OCW testing I discovered it liked .006 off best which is why I used that length for the OCW testing on that barrel.
I have a bighorn and criterion barrels on order.. looking forward to the test!
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Just received the Criterion barrels a few days ago. Big thanks to Criterion for sending me 2 barrels.
I have final loads all loaded up for the Mullerworks/Southern Precision Rifles 300yd and 500yd tests then will be testing Criterion next...Bartlein is going to ship to PVA in the next few weeks so that will be the last barrel tested then I will do a final recap.
I have final loads all loaded up for the Mullerworks/Southern Precision Rifles 300yd and 500yd tests then will be testing Criterion next...Bartlein is going to ship to PVA in the next few weeks so that will be the last barrel tested then I will do a final recap.
Both Criterion in 223?
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