Calling Belgian Malinois Owners

[THEIS]

Hi,

@W54/XM-388
IMO it boils down to the how and why it happened. An overwhelmingly majority of the time the blame can be pointed to the handler.

With simple things that get overlooked sometimes during the heat of the moment type thing.

For example:
Teaching a dog to "Out" but circling into the dog once he has released the bite. You always want to circle away from the dog.

Putting too much "Agitation" onto the dog without letting him release that agitation through a proper bite channel. So the handler goes to "Heel" the dog away from the agitation and dog uses the handler as the bite channel as a pressure valve release.

Applying too much stress to a dog during OB work by having too many distractions, etc and then for what the dog perceives as an unfair correction. The dog will not see the handler any different than someone abusing it. Overloading stress, Overloading corrections equal biting handler damn near every single time.

BUT BUT that being said..there are some Mals that are just aggressive to everyone but with the correct handler and handling they are rock stars during working hours. Those dogs do not run free at home though .

Edited To Add:
For example my last mal I "Acquired" him from the DIA. They imported this dog without ever sending anyone from their K9 Division to see/handle the dog. The dog arrived at airport and basically shut the cargo terminal down because no worker would go unload the crate off the plane. DIA gets the call and send the intended handler over to take possession of his new partner. Long story short..DIA said nope, no way, not gonna happen. I get the call asking if I wanted a new "fully trained and ready to go dog". I make arrangements to have it unloaded from the plane and get to the airport later.
I arrive and thought someone shipped a grown Tasmanian devil. This thing was slinging slobber through the crate and spinning in circles. I get the dog home and I had to hand feed him through the fence for about 8 months before he ever let me touch him but 1 morning I walked out and the dog was just "different". He was sitting perfectly 2 feet from the gate. I gave commands from outside the fence and he obeyed. I opened the gate admittedly a little scared lol and the dog acted as if I had him since birth.
He went on to become a rock star for DIA....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Aaros143]

Speaking from my experience and observations. So don't take this as expert advice. If your looking for a working type dog GSD, Mal, Dutchie. Know that they are higher drive and smarter than your normal dogs. I also think that a lot of people bad experiences with these type of dogs is they went to a breeder or trainer that specializes in police or MWD dogs and that isn't what most people need. Find a breeder or rescue dog that fits your lifestyle and a trainer to match. For me I'm just using a regular trainer. No bite or aggression work involved. After the basics are down I may look into some agility stuff or dock diving. But don't look into a breeder/trainer who has specific goals for their dogs if those don't line up with what you want. In other words don't take a dog bred and trained for cop work and try to turn it into a house pet.

 

[kindabitey]

Anyone in the group have Mals? I have currently have a Redbone Coonhound who is a pretty awesome dog. However there are times I feel she needs a companion. This past summer I have started to want a second dog and fell in love with the Mal breed. Can anyone give me some insight to the breed? introducing a mal pup to an older dog etc. I know Mals or Maligators require A LOT they are a HIGH Drive dog and require work. My furniture might be cringing as I type this. I have done a lot of reading about the breed. I have looked into a lot of training facilities to work with. And I am willing to put in the time and work. I am single and other than my RBCH it is just me. Anyone have have Mals and any advice? would you do it again? Suggestions on breeders or even a young rescue? Male would be preferred. And yes I have been around the breed and seen them first hand.

Since you've done your homework, and settled on the breed, a good rescue is https://www.malinoisranchrescue.com/ in TN.
As far as trainers, Julie at MRR could recommend one.
If I were getting another one, I would send it to Eric at http://www.vanessk9.com/

My little asshat

 

[mardad]

What did that poor tree do to him???

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@kindabitey
You subscribe to Fred Hassan's E-collar philosophy or the E-collar in more traditional sense?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[kindabitey]

What did that poor tree do to him???

Her, and it was in the way ?

 

[kindabitey]

Hi,

@kindabitey
You subscribe to Fred Hassan's E-collar philosophy or the E-collar in more traditional sense?

Sincerely,
Theis

More traditional. It's what she was trained with when I got her. It rarely gets used, however, I do use the tone for recall.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Hi,

@W54/XM-388
IMO it boils down to the how and why it happened. An overwhelmingly majority of the time the blame can be pointed to the handler.

With simple things that get overlooked sometimes during the heat of the moment type thing.

For example:
Teaching a dog to "Out" but circling into the dog once he has released the bite. You always want to circle away from the dog.

Putting too much "Agitation" onto the dog without letting him release that agitation through a proper bite channel. So the handler goes to "Heel" the dog away from the agitation and dog uses the handler as the bite channel as a pressure valve release.

Applying too much stress to a dog during OB work by having too many distractions, etc and then for what the dog perceives as an unfair correction. The dog will not see the handler any different than someone abusing it. Overloading stress, Overloading corrections equal biting handler damn near every single time.

BUT BUT that being said..there are some Mals that are just aggressive to everyone but with the correct handler and handling they are rock stars during working hours. Those dogs do not run free at home though .

Edited To Add:
For example my last mal I "Acquired" him from the DIA. They imported this dog without ever sending anyone from their K9 Division to see/handle the dog. The dog arrived at airport and basically shut the cargo terminal down because no worker would go unload the crate off the plane. DIA gets the call and send the intended handler over to take possession of his new partner. Long story short..DIA said nope, no way, not gonna happen. I get the call asking if I wanted a new "fully trained and ready to go dog". I make arrangements to have it unloaded from the plane and get to the airport later.
I arrive and thought someone shipped a grown Tasmanian devil. This thing was slinging slobber through the crate and spinning in circles. I get the dog home and I had to hand feed him through the fence for about 8 months before he ever let me touch him but 1 morning I walked out and the dog was just "different". He was sitting perfectly 2 feet from the gate. I gave commands from outside the fence and he obeyed. I opened the gate admittedly a little scared lol and the dog acted as if I had him since birth.
He went on to become a rock star for DIA....

Sincerely,
Theis

THEIS, et al, I'm not a dogologist, but I've had a few. Including a few Hungarian Kuvasz. Excellent dogs, for their purpose.

But I have to ask, regarding that DIA 'rescue' that you got from the airport... have you any suspicions that the dog was mistreated and/or mishandled in the airplane or airport? Most predominantly, was the dog tormented as hell by being placed next to something/somethings that it shouldn't have been? For some hours on end? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the trainer stated that the dog was 'perfect' when it was shipped. And it sounds like after a time, (and a trust was built) that the dog was again 'perfect' for you.

The point I'm getting to, is more than a few times I've read/heard/learned of dogs being 'different' after coming off of a plane. Some for minutes, some for hours, some for days.... Yours by far is almost the worst. (The worst is when they're not alive anymore)

Many years ago, it is because of previous experiences why I personally believe in "road-trips" regarding animals. I'm not saying that they can't be flown, but I AM saying that I trust the dog a LOT more than the baggage-monkeys. Especially if the baggage-monkeys see that an animal is going to a LEO agency.

Or am I just being too paranoid?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

No, it was as simple as the Belgian breeder pawning off his most aggressive dog ever to the DIA, lol. Because the trainers/handlers just outright got tired of his ass.

I have made several trips over to the kennel over the past decade and they have yet to produce another dog that would even remotely match this "Things" natural aggression.

There has been some advancements in actually "predicting" this type of traits in Malinois specifically by the UC Davis Veterinary Medicine. I wish I had known about this test when I had this dog. I would have had him tested to blow this test threshold out the water lol.
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/BelgianMalinois.php

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

What is ironic is you always see people say "Get GSD" instead of a mal but there is a lineage of GSD that are by far way more "handler" aggressive than mals are.

A GSD from the lines that have spent over 100 years working in "No Man Zones" on the borders of Poland, Czech, etc are some of the most handler aggressive dogs around. They have 15-25 generations of never being touched by a person and raise themselves between high fences.

The Russians bred their Caucasian Ovcharka with these lines and made the Russian Shepherd which is essentially a huge GSD looking dog. A true 125 pound GSD with attitudes to match.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[BW64]

Best used for Law Enforcement might not be the best choice for a family pet unless you can give it the time and attention they require. Had 1 here on the farm last week with his partner my long time friend and colleague while they were on duty. Well he was too quiet just waiting for a command.... Goodluck, we have some lab pups ready to go in NY.

Beautiful pup. Wish I was closer I would take one !

BW

 

[BLKWLFK9]

First off, I am a working dog trainer. I have worked dogs that are in almost every state in various agencies. I am also on the national board of the APPDA (American Protection and Patrol Dog Association). The dog pictured, i got when he was 4 years old. He is an extremely hard dog. Very rank and dominant. This is the type A dog that i had been looking for. The bite happened when me and him were having a come to Jesus talk, b/c every now and then, he needs it. I got bit, but I won that fight. His traits are very valuable in a breeding program. If he were utilized, the poor unfortunate soul on the receiving end would literally have to kill him. He will not stop. We test our dogs very stringently. No, he's not a dog that i would want on the street with me if i were a cop, but his pups, i would. Thats why i have him. He and my male gsd have been bred a few times and their offspring have produced very nice litters. He is not the dog for the faint of heart or the inexperienced. He resource guards with aggression and is plain ol'e stubborn. His rankness is what makes that problematic. He needs to be shown every once in a while that some things just aren't up to him.. plain and simple. Those who haven't been involved with working dogs dont understand that.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

This is my GSD

 

[neeltburn]

Thanks guys keep the info coming. Enjoying reading your experiences

 

[bullseye13]

Good thread

 

[THEIS]

Good thread

Hi,

Isn't it crazy at the various things you can get into conversation with on a shooting forum haha.

The membership depth here is unrivaled by any other place on the www

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[bullseye13]

Yes. Alot of good and knowledgeable people here. I couldn't give a fuck about the Kardashians or what's happening on Facebook, but if we're talking about guns, gear, and cool dogs you have my attention. Lol

 

[BLKWLFK9]

This is from teaching legs to one of the baddest bastards I've ever seen, bar none

 

[BLKWLFK9]

same bite, just a few days later. teeth went through the suit.

 

[bullseye13]

same bite, just a few days later. teeth went through the suit.

Keep it up and you’ll have enough of that dogs DNA in you to produce a werewolf.

 

[Bradu]

A friend has one that he has spent a lot of time working with it and it's a really great dog. The key is having and willing to spend time working with them. I had the pleasure to meet a guy named Rick Rutt a few years ago at the range I occasionally shoot at. He was staying in one of the mobile homes for deer season and we just happened to start talking. Really interesting guy and was pretty awesome to listen to him talk about training the dogs. We did more talking that day rather than shooting.

Damn Blkwlfk9, that looks like a pretty rough job lol. I knew they had some powerful jaws but holy shit. That's crazy!

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

As much fun as the Mals and Dutchies are..my next working dog is coming from Black Dolphins breeding program in Russia. Since I am moving to VA from Houston and retiring from MENA duties. I need a territorial independent working dog instead of "handler required" type of dog. A dog that operates behind a couple secured fences lol.
Days of needing a meat missile are winding down and the days of needing tank the terror are approaching.

I may have to drive to you @BLKWLFK9 if I cannot find a decoy in the new area lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Hi,

As much fun as the Mals and Dutchies are..my next working dog is coming from Black Dolphins breeding program in Russia. Since I am moving to VA from Houston and retiring from MENA duties. I need a territorial independent working dog instead of "handler required" type of dog. A dog that operates behind a couple secured fences lol.
Days of needing a meat missile are winding down and the days of needing tank the terror are approaching.

I may have to drive to you @BLKWLFK9 if I cannot find a decoy in the new area lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

I'm in eastern NC. Glad to have you on the east coast and to help you when you need it

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Look up AK9i in VA. My buddy Richard works there as one of the head trainers. One of the best decoys I know and taught me a lot through the years. Also, if you'll be in Northern VA, my sport club is in Upper Marlboro, MD which is not far from the VA/MD line. Great group of very knowledgeable trainers.

 

[SFree]

Seems these days putting pressure on very young dogs is the norm, but too much to fast is a good way to promote handler aggression. Some dogs can be over corrected and won’t respond well harsh treatment.
Then again, some dogs are just jerks...

 

[SFree]

Nate Harves is another excellent trainer. Probably one of the best helper/ decoy trainers in the country. He’s located in the Indianapolis, IN area.
Sportwaffen K9

 

[EDDK9]

BLKWLFK-

Prior military / police? Personally, I wouldn't recommend a malinois for a normal family, unless you're prepared to be busy. I've walked a few before and I would never have one unless I was single again and wanted another full-time job.

OP- Looks like you're prepared and I say go for it. I love the breed and wouldn't want anything else as a working dog. Besides a dutchie...

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Sfree, idk if u are referring to me, but I didnt put too much pressure on my dog. While working, hes completely fine with any pressure put on him. His problems rise when you're not training and he gets rank on you. Hes punked people before, and learned he gets what he wants by showing aggression. That was until he met me. He has never won one of those fights. He had 4 years of punking people before I got him. He is an amazing specimen to work. Bites like a God damn crocodile.

 

[SFree]

Blkwlf,
No sir, not aimed at you at all! I’m just thinking of the “old timers” like Elmer Manes, Helmut Huber, et al, who didn’t seem to start more intense bite work and training until 2 or 3 years old, but I don’t know much... literally
Like my 2 yr old GSD that comes from some old world working lines. Bites hard, likes to tear chunks out of a tractor tire. But I won’t do any more bite work until obedience/ control is better established.

 

[SFree]

And God forbid anyone tries to harm my grandson, let alone the rest of the family. ?
Blkwlf, I still want to pick your brain ?

 

[neeltburn]

I keep telling myself I am still in plan prepare and decide mode. This I came across this guy. All my dogs end up with gun names. And honestly his history excites me. Alothough makes me wonder about him having some extra needs. But... but.. I may go meet him and see if he is a fit. Him being a rescue is also a selling point to me. Second chance at a good life.

 

[neeltburn]

Nate Harves is another excellent trainer. Probably one of the best helper/ decoy trainers in the country. He’s located in the Indianapolis, IN area.
Sportwaffen K9

That isn’t too far by any means.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Nate is a great IPO helper.

@neeltburn unless you've had actual experience with a dog like that, by the sounds of it, I dont think he would make a great first working dog. A dog like that isn't a pet and could get someone in serious trouble. Just my opinion and looking out for you, homie. I've seen horror stories play out in similar situations.

 

[neeltburn]

Nate is a great IPO helper.

@neeltburn unless you've had actual experience with a dog like that, by the sounds of it, I dont think he would make a great first working dog. A dog like that isn't a pet and could get someone in serious trouble. Just my opinion and looking out for you, homie. I've seen horror stories play out in similar situations.

And an opinion I take seriously. Which is why I think to even consider him I need to meet him. But, again, I have no time frame for this.

 

[SFree]

Listen to Blkwlf, he’s forgotten more than I’ll ever know.
Working dog breeds and good lines are NOT for the faint of heart. As a first time owner of said “type “ I thought I had a good handle on what was going to happen. My eyes are open! I thought I knew what dominance and aggression were until seeing it first hand. I have been amazed at watching the behavior and traits mature in my young male, but I have had problems to deal with. My family are the ONLY people I will ever trust my dog to be around , and he is the one who decides who he accepts or rejects. I don’t care how well trained they are the only way to have complete control is to have them on a leash, sometimes two of em.??
In the end, they are still just dogs. They lick there own butts, eat cat poop, and make bad decisions , but in the end, for me, I wouldn’t trade it for anything...

 

[MtnCreek]

@SFree Did you find yourself making strange new rules, like no one even looks at a water hose unless the dog is put up? :-D

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Another vote for PASS on that dog as your first mal.

When "Ego" driven LE types get rid of a dog because it's too aggressive for their needs; it does not sound like a good fit for you IMO.

See above pics from the come to Jesus meeting. I seriously think that is where you would be headed.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[SFree]

HA!!
He’s insane when water is shooting out of anything! He’s an absolute goofball, but one scary dude to anyone who isn’t part of his family.

 

[MtnCreek]

^ The dog and me about had to find a new home when the wife decided to let the dog play while she washed the car. Dog: "That's My F'ing Water Hose".

 

[bullseye13]

Hi,

Another vote for PASS on that dog as your first mal.

When "Ego" driven LE types get rid of a dog because it's too aggressive for their needs; it does not sound like a good fit for you IMO.

See above pics from the come to Jesus meeting. I seriously think that is where you would be headed.

Sincerely,
Theis

I didn't even read the dogs bio until after reading your guys reply. Good looking dog though. He looks so innocent like a cuddly sow grizzly bear. Lol

 

[eddie102870]

just had to re home my female a few months back. her prey drive around the wifes cats and our female english bulldog werent compatible. luckily a buddy of mine whos a K9 handler had his dog die from old age. ive known this guy my whole life and he doesnt ahve kids so Tillie was a perfect fit for him. I miss her every day. she was my buddy, but it was constant turmoil with other animals in the house. Not her fault and i will have another one just wasnt a good fit at this time with all the other animals in the house. These are high energy dogs that require a lot of exercise

 

[bullseye13]

I know most of you guys are south and east, but anyone heard of ultimate K9 in Milwaukee WI? My pup turns 1 in January and am looking for someone close to or in WI for training.

 

[SFree]

Stephan Schaub , Stattsmacht K9, possibly.
He’s located in Minnesota

 

[kindabitey]

I'll have to agree with @BLKWLFK9 and @THEIS. I'm not sure he would be a good choice for a first Mal.
When i first started researching for a new dog after my last one passed, I had ruled out a Mal or Dutchie, as I figured they were
"too much dog" for me. I got lucky when I found the one I have now, as she has somewhat lower drive than your typical Mal.

One other thing, I've found the K9 training/ sales business to be much like the horse business. There's a lot of shitheads out trying to make a
quick dollar at the expense of novice folks.
I've found that 90% of the people here on SH are legitimately genuine, and are trying to help each other.

 

[THEIS]

I
One other thing, I've found the K9 training/ sales business to be much like the horse business. There's a lot of shitheads out trying to make a
quick dollar at the expense of novice folks.
I've found that 90% of the people here on SH are legitimately genuine, and are trying to help each other.

Hi,

THIS RIGHT HERE x100!!

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[W54/XM-388]

This I came across this guy. All my dogs end up with gun names. And honestly his history excites me. Alothough makes me wonder about him having some extra needs. But... but.. I may go meet him and see if he is a fit. Him being a rescue is also a selling point to me. Second chance at a good life.

I do like the part about where it says that Dog doesn't like female humans....
Might have something to do with being angry about his missing balls...

 

[schmi015]

@SFree Did you find yourself making strange new rules, like no one even looks at a water hose unless the dog is put up? :-D

Holyshit i totally forgot about the hose... Our mal will absolutely without hesitation non stop try to attack the end where water comes out, doesn't matter if its on the other side of the yard minding its own business. Its worse if you were holding it because she would fly/launch herself to attack it.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

@kindabitey is 100% correct. This business is the worst business next to horse trading. I've washed dogs off departments that bought them from complete ass hats that have no business selling a dog to anyone. Dogs that are scared of their own shadows. It's a horrible business.

 

[bogeybrown]

Hiya gents,
I know I'm late to this party, @Redmanss I appreciate the kind words but I'm just a guy who's been around a LOT of working dogs. @Mike Casselton shot me a text about this thread because I've been working myself into the ground for a couple of months now.

@neeltburn , don't do it. Just don't do it. I've owned dozens of dogs and the only one I ever gave away was a Mal, and she was on the soft, family-oriented side of the breed. She was still too much of a pain in the ass to be enjoyable. You want a companion dog for you and your hound. Pick a breed, any breed, that will fill that role without the drama of a fucking Mal and allow you the stress-free enjoyment of dog ownership.

The other guys with experience have already hit all the high (and low points). A Mal is a working dog, period. They suck as pets on almost every level, and you will end up working for your dog just to keep it manageable as described by all the guys above who have to have structured routines just to wear their dogs out.

In my experience 95% of the bad Handler bites I saw were Mals. A huge number of them were largely un-precipitated. When a GSD bit it's handler, every Trainer that knew the dog said "well, we knew that was coming". With Mals an alarming amount of the time it was anyone's guess WTF voice in that dog's head was saying. These were experienced handlers with dogs they'd had and lived with for years in some cases and one day the dog would light the handler up. Some expert would always offer an explanation of why it was the handler's fault. Screw that, even for a working dog. Hell, especially for a working dog there needs to be trust that your dog isn't going to go retard on you.

For a pet owner why would you want to cringe every time you came home, wondering what had been destroyed? I've been offered ownership of a Mal that I currently work with and laughed in their faces at the idea of bringing that asshole home to eat my couches and carpets.

Mals have their place, but it's at WORK.

Here's a pic of my current working dickhead. He's as sweet as can be despite being bite trained, but I would never allow him in my house.

 

[bogeybrown]

Oh, and if you're looking at a Mal and he's got the full "smokey" black mask and crazy bug eyes, don't even consider it. Any of them can be nuts, but any time one of those bug-eyed bastards came on the bite field the decoy and all the trainers would instinctively say "aw shit, this is gonna be a handful"

I'm curious if any of the other working dog guys had the same experience with those bug-eyed Mals?