DPMS G2 Bull Infatuation

[rank9000]

Greetings fellow Gun Nuts,

I have a some cash burning a hole in my pocket and I'm in Love with the DPMS GII Bull. Can anyone burst my bubble over this rifle before I get buyers remorse?

Thanks for your input!

 

[wareagle700]

I have seen enough poor reviews of the GII to keep me from getting one. Especially one that heavy.

 

[LRRPF52]

The GII bull barrel model was surprisingly well balanced when I handled it. That and the Hunter 20" stuck out to me the most of all 6 models. The bull feels like a 24" bull barreled AR15.

Keep in mind that this is not a DPMS product, but a Remington/Freedom Group product that they chose to slap the DPMS label on for marketing reasons. The company known as DPMS no longer exists.

The main negatives we have seen with the GII's are large firing pin hole issues with slow burning powder and long bearing surface bullets for long range shooting, which has been addressed with an updated small firing pin hole in newer GII's.

 

[rank9000]

Thank you for your information, LRRPF52.

I tried an email to the DPMS support site trying to find out about recalls, etc, but no reply. Any idea about how recently the firing pin hole issue was resolved?

I had heard about the Freedom Group, but doesn't the original DPMS facility produce these rifles?

Thanks again!

 

[LRRPF52]

There are many manufacturing facilities in the chain that Freedom Group acquired, including the biggest receiver maker here in the Salt Lake Valley, LAR Mfg.

They brought in all the manufacturing capacity of Remington, Remington engineering, DPMS assembly lines, parts sourcing, Bushmaster assembly line, and cut all the excess they saw as liabilities, while keeping the core assets and streamlining them.

Bushmaster, Remington, and DPMS are now brand names retained by the Freedom Group, but significant changes have been made to the individual company manufacturing chains to the point that the discerning consumer can see those changes in the products, especially when looking at AR15's.

There haven't been any recalls that I'm aware of with the GII, but keep in mind that the firing pin/bolt configuration on .080" pin holes in the large frame AR's is only suited to a certain window of pressures, with faster powders and shorter bearing surface bullets. IOW, M80 ball works great, as do a lot of surplus rounds, even 168gr SMK's, but once you step up to certain long range loads, primer cratering and piercing can happen.

 

[lennyo3034]

I've been tossing around the idea of getting one of these two, this is great information. Thanks.

I will probably wait to see if I can get my hands on one in a 6.5 caliber before deciding.

 

[briang7511]

Greetings fellow Gun Nuts,

I have a some cash burning a hole in my pocket and I'm in Love with the DPMS GII Bull. Can anyone burst my bubble over this rifle before I get buyers remorse?

Thanks for your input!

In my opinion I think it is one of the better lower priced .308 ar -10s out there. It does have a few imperfections such as the trigger which I replace on every factory gun, and the slight over gassing issue. ive been working on a few loads and ive got one that I shot yesterday. 1st shot was cold bore and a tad low, next 3 were thru same hole. Load is 46gr of varget with a 155 amax OAL 2.785. I switched to some lake city brass hoping it is a little tougher than federal and backed the load down from 47gr. chrono with 46 gr is 2840fps. I still am scratching up the headstamp on the brass but I believe a adj gas block will help that. so far only modifications to the gun is a timney single stage at 4lbs. Top left group on the target is the dpms G2. The small .17 cal holes were from my daughter.

 

[Birddog6424]

I have a friend wit the 24" Bull and I have the SASS. I'm not sure what multitude of negative reviews the 2nd poster has seen, but I'm in the industry and I haven't seen any negative feedback beyond what has been discussed in this very short thread.

Neither of us have seen primer cratering on 175gr SMK's or smaller. Neither of us have shot anything longer. Both of our guns were over-gassed from factory, and both guns now have adjustable gas blocks, which in my humble opinion, everyone should put on their GII's. Not to tone down the gas, but to take advantage of a gas block that weighs less than the JP low mass BCG. A low mass system is just an adjustable gas block away.

Both rifles easily shoot sub-moa. I shot a .61 MoA five shot group at 200 yards last Friday while confirming my zero before moving out to some longer range shooting.

 

[Will_Power]

Keep in mind that this is not a DPMS product, but a Remington/Freedom Group product that they chose to slap the DPMS label on for marketing reasons. The company known as DPMS no longer exists.

I've been out of the DPMS loop for a while, I guess.

When did this happen? Did the yahoos at the Freedom Group acquire DPMS for their esteemable brand name and then shitcan everybody?

 

[LRRPF52]

I've been out of the DPMS loop for a while, I guess.

When did this happen? Did the yahoos at the Freedom Group acquire DPMS for their esteemable brand name and then shitcan everybody?

Randy Luth cashed out to the tune of millions, and Freedom Group streamlined several of the different branches of operations they acquired from Remington, Bushmaster, and DPMS. You now see "Bushmaster" logo AR15's with the Serpent but no ARM, with "Ilion New York" listed as the place of manufacture (Remington), with BCG's with a "D" stamped on the left side (DPMS), using Remington barrels.

Like I said, none of those 3 companies really exists anymore if looking at them the way we were accustomed to over the years. I already went from thinking "Bushmaster is best", to I won't buy one of these ever again after watching their QC and very limited quality go downhill in assembly over the early 2000's, and I would never purchase a legacy DPMS carbine in 5.56 from the Luth era anyway after running them in high volume.

To me, the GII looks nothing like the Luth era DPMS low grade aluminum, short cut at every corner carbines, because it simply isn't. That won't escape a lot of people who came to the same conclusions that I did about the Luth era DPMS, because you only get one chance to make a 1st impression, and that simple mentality drives a lot of decision making with gun customers.

I like to stay flexible and as updated as possible as to what is going on, and the GII really appears to be a new breed of AR innovation in many aspects, none of which resemble DPMS other than some of the cheap and outdated furniture, which I hope is just a way of getting rid of excess stock, and not a continuation of old designs, like the Glacier Guard, or the heavy pineapple quad rails.

Sure, eat the inventory up of those components which Joe Blow is going to rip off and replace with MI and Sampson, but don't make any new ones. The newer handguard designs that DPMS has offered on their 3-gun and more recent rifles makes a lot more sense, or they can start throwing on the MI and Sampson handguards as factory models, replacing what they are putting on the Recon, SASS, and maybe one other model.

If I were driving the boat, I would design a dedicated and updated lightweight SASS handguard, with a permanent 12 o'clock rail, tons of lightening cuts, vent holes, but a sold attachment system that doesn't rob accuracy or come loose. Nobody should have to mess about with the higher price point models, in my opinion.

 

[Birddog6424]

Randy Luth cashed out to the tune of millions, and Freedom Group streamlined several of the different branches of operations they acquired from Remington, Bushmaster, and DPMS. You now see "Bushmaster" logo AR15's with the Serpent but no ARM, with "Ilion New York" listed as the place of manufacture (Remington), with BCG's with a "D" stamped on the left side (DPMS), using Remington barrels.

Like I said, none of those 3 companies really exists anymore if looking at them the way we were accustomed to over the years. I already went from thinking Bushmaster is best, to I won't buy one of these ever again after watching their QC and very limited quality go downhill in assembly over the early 2000's, and I would never purchase a legacy DPMS carbine in 5.56 from the Luth era anyway after running them in high volume.

To me, the GII looks nothing like the Luth era DPMS low grade aluminum, short cut at every corner carbines, because it simply isn't. That won't escape a lot of people who came to the same conclusions that I did about the Luth era DPMS, because you only get one chance to make a 1st impression, and that simple mentality drives a lot of decision making with gun customers.

I like to stay flexible and as updated as possible as to what is going on, and the GII really appears to be a new breed of AR innovation in many aspects, none of which resemble DPMS other than some of the cheap and outdated furniture, which I hope is just a way of getting rid of excess stock, and not a continuation of old designs, like the Glacier Guard, or the heavy pineapple quad rails.

Sure, eat the inventory up of those components which Joe Blow is going to rip off and replace with MI and Sampson, but don't make any new ones. The newer handguard designs that DPMS has offered on their 3-gun and more recent rifles makes a lot more sense, or they can start throwing on the MI and Sampson handguards as factory models, replacing what they are putting on the Recon, SASS, and maybe one other model.

If I were driving the boat, I would design a dedicated and updated lightweight SASS handguard, with a permanent 12 o'clock rail, tons of lightening cuts, vent holes, but a sold attachment system that doesn't rob accuracy or come loose. Nobody should have to mess about with the higher price point models, in my opinion.

Excellent post!!

 

[heavy65]

My friend's DPMS 6.5CM went back to them for blown (not just flowing) primers with Hornady factory 140AMAX ammo. After getting it back from them after 6 months and immediately seeing excessive primer flow, he got a bolt from JP with a smaller hole. Problem gone.

Do you think the pin hole clearance or the firing pin diameter size was/is the problem? Or both? Could the clearance have channeled away so much material in the flow, that it weakened cup primer tension and made the primer easier to lose? Or enough material to fill in the channel that the primer could have been "pulled" out?

I'm curious whether you think tightening the clearance alone will resolve the issues, or if a smaller pin is needed especially in 6.5CM-type calibers. Either way I think it's a bit misleading of DPMS to describe this as an "aesthetic" issue.

 

[LRRPF52]

My friend's DPMS 6.5CM went back to them for blown (not just flowing) primers with Hornady factory 140AMAX ammo. After getting it back from them after 6 months and immediately seeing excessive primer flow, he got a bolt from JP with a smaller hole. Problem gone.

Do you think the pin hole clearance or the firing pin diameter size was/is the problem? Or both? Could the clearance have channeled away so much material in the flow, that it weakened cup primer tension and made the primer easier to lose? Or enough material to fill in the channel that the primer could have been "pulled" out?

I'm curious whether you think tightening the clearance alone will resolve the issues, or if a smaller pin is needed especially in 6.5CM-type calibers. Either way I think it's a bit misleading of DPMS to describe this as an "aesthetic" issue.

With the .260 Remington and 6.5 Creedmoor, there are several issues.

* Factory ammo is manufactured for these calibers that really does well in bolt guns. If you stick to 120gr or less, it usually runs without too many issues in gassers. Go up to the target bullets or heavier 129gr and 140gr class in 6.5mm, and factory ammo in an AR10 becomes an ugly affair, complete with primer flow, blown primers, pierced primers, soot flow, damaged brass, and harsh cycling of the guns.

* Firing pin hole diameter: The large .080" FP hole allows a lot of the primer/pressure issues to rear their heads. These calibers really do so much better with a small firing pin hole. I am currently testing an enlarged firing pin from a fellow forum member to fill out the .080" hole, and so far, it's working very well with H4350 and 129-130gr.

* Hand loading: These calibers are really a hand loader's affair, in my experience and opinion, which is also the opinion of JP Enterprises.

As to the GII, it is my understanding that they have upgraded the bolt to a smaller FP and FP hole. A factory 24" bull in .260 Remington would be cool, but they would have to take into consideration several factors that steer away from factory ammo, which is hard to do as a rifle maker.

 

[heavy65]

What tends to be the issue with factory 6.5 "overbore" ammo in 308 semis? Powder too fast?

It didn't occur to me that factory ammo, particularly in a one-brand situation like 6.5CM, wouldn't necessarily be a good benchmark for a mass-produced rifle in that caliber. As luck would have it I stumbled into a few boxes of cheap factory 120GMX ammo and will have to compare the results with the 140AMAX when they arrive, understanding that due to bullet density and Superformance as opposed to H4350 it's not nearly apples to apples. The gun in question does have an adjustable gas block, so at least cycling is manageable.

As I understand it factory 6.5CM loads use:

120gr AMAX: 40.3gr "slow" Varget (down from original recipe of 44.5gr "medium" H4350, interestingly)
QL H4350: 54132psi, 9658psi at muzzle
QL Varget: 54616psi, 9157psi at muzzle

120gr GMX, 129gr Interbond/SST: "fast" Superformance
QL N/A (don't know the exact charge and Hodgdon keeps Superformance data close to the vest, possibly at Hornady's behest)

140gr AMAX: 41.7gr "medium" H4350
QL H4350: 54418psi, 9279psi at muzzle, 2684fps

Have you tried any H4895? Under a 140AMAX, QL says 36.4gr of it yields 54532psi, 8648psi at muzzle, 2671fps. Near identical performance on paper to H4350, but with lower muzzle pressure probably because the "very fast" powder supposedly burns completely in a 24" barrel. Not sure if the idea makes sense, but curious if you've tried it.

For science, I compared Hodgdon's Extreme powders at 55205 max psi in QL below:

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon H4831 SC 102.9 45.2 2.93 2730 95.6 55205 9914 1.243 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 98.6 41.9 2.72 2696 98.5 55205 9314 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 84.2 36.6 2.37 2681 100.0 55205 8671 1.270 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 105.0 44.3 2.87 2673 94.8 51693 9723 1.280
Hodgdon VARGET 90.0 37.8 2.45 2668 100.0 55205 8666 1.259 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 82.5 35.3 2.29 2608 100.0 55205 7832 1.270 ! Near Maximum !

 

[whatmeworry_45]

I'm liking the GII Bull more and more myself after just recently discovering they even existed. Saving up for one now. However, this firing pin issue has me a little concerned. I wonder if the bolts have enough meat in them that they could be bushed? Have had it done on some R700la actions and it seems not terribly invasive. Anyone know if this is a possibility?