Drones, privacy and private property

[kortik]

What would you guys do if you're on your private property and you see drone flying above your head?

I've decided I'll grab my shotgun and shoot that thing down. My logic is that it would be a direct violation of my privacy rights while being on my private property, and anything transpassing, without my invitation or court order, in air space above property in close proximity to the ground is the invasion of privacy and is not acceptable.

Anybody willing to comment about the private property "air space"? Logically, I would consider that anything flying below the height of the talest structure on the property, including, say, trees, growning on the property, is the invasion of privacy. Are there any laws/regulations you're aware of?

Just curious to learn about this subject.

 

[madppcs]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Well, if its one of the advanced Predator, or other models (I cant remember the names) then it will be out of sight. They fly very high. But the other less advanced drones could quite possibly be within view.

Im pretty sure that if I were (Hunting Back Birds) or other types of birds to eat I could very well (Mistake) one of those as a type of duck/bird and shoot it down. (Accidentally of course)

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Respectfully, what 'Right' is there that empowers you over the airspace above your property?

I'm not arguing with you, but seeing as the Bill Of Rights was written before the age of Flight, what encompasses the 'airspace' to which you refer?

I too am curious about this, but am a Canuck and am not perfectly cognizant of all your Rights and Freedoms.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

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Rocket net! RAAAWR!

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully, what 'Right' is there that empowers you over the airspace above your property?

I'm not arguing with you, but seeing as the Bill Of Rights was written before the age of Flight, what encompasses the 'airspace' to which you refer?

I too am curious about this, but am a Canuck and am not perfectly cognizant of all your Rights and Freedoms. </div></div>

Sean,

I do not know, but seeing all these little gizmos getting ready to fly everywhere, I'm just curious what to do.

I do not, of course, mean Predators and stuff, just little low flying ones...

Besides all, in addition to potentially taking pictures of my naked fat 55 year body with still functioning johnson attached to it , which is a bit of embarasement even to myself when looking at it in the mirror, such drone can crash and cause explosion, fire and/or damage to my precious remaining health or property. Clearly a potential danger.

So, if, say, we limit air space to height of the tallest structure on the property, what it be legal to deploy means of air defence system comprised, say, of 12 Ga Rem870 loaded with some bird shot?

 

[Ring Bearer]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

I know that they are not looking for me so they must be looking for bad guys or bad guys doing bad things or bad girls doin bad guys or hipsters growin pot or poachers or people driving smart cars or occupy protesters or some other crap that I dont do.

If you keep your nose clean you dont have to worry about whos watching it.

So I say keep on flyin!!!!

 

[THE MGD]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Id agree with the above and say accidents happen, but you already wrote out intent.
You sunk that ship, dont be suprised to see the above printed out in court and a very costly repair / replace bill.

 

[DCR]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Don't they make cammo netting for this?

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't they make cammo netting for this? </div></div>

To cover the ground, or to stretch from tree to tree to tree?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully, what 'Right' is there that empowers you over the airspace above your property?

I'm not arguing with you, but seeing as the Bill Of Rights was written before the age of Flight, what encompasses the 'airspace' to which you refer?

I too am curious about this, but am a Canuck and am not perfectly cognizant of all your Rights and Freedoms. </div></div>

Actually every owner of a property has air rights. For example... When you purchase a condo you're actually purchasing a parcel of property above the surface not containing any land. The US government has restricted some air rights, but owners still have exclusive rights to use of the lower reaches of airspace over their property. We also have the right to not be harmed or damaged by use of the airspace above out property.

The restrictions of airspace can be found in the Air Commerce Act of 1926 and the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

MIni SAM site or big electric wind turbines, that be a bitch to fly through.

 

[Jim R]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

I would make sure it is not one of those drones that can shoot back. The potential court actions could be a moot point.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter McGavin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MIni SAM site or big electric wind turbines, that be a bitch to fly through. </div></div>

I just had a recollection of that movie Terminal Velocity and the dude going through the turbine lol...

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully, what 'Right' is there that empowers you over the airspace above your property?

I'm not arguing with you, but seeing as the Bill Of Rights was written before the age of Flight, what encompasses the 'airspace' to which you refer?

I too am curious about this, but am a Canuck and am not perfectly cognizant of all your Rights and Freedoms. </div></div>

Actually every owner of a property has air rights. For example... When you purchase a condo you're actually purchasing a parcel of property above the surface not containing any land. The US government has restricted some air rights, but owners still have exclusive rights to use of the lower reaches of airspace over their property. We also have the right to not be harmed or damaged by use of the airspace above out property.

The restrictions of airspace can be found in the Air Commerce Act of 1926 and the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938. </div></div>

Broker,

Thanks a lot for some info that can be used as a starting point to understand this situation.

I think from the legal point of view, it would be beneficial to clarify this subject for this potentially new kind of situation. There will be much more of these flying toys in the near future, and logically, if one of them is hanging there in the air a few feet above my house or various ground based appliances, like gas tanks, power generators, etc... and I do not have any prior warning, agreement with the owner of this flying object or this flying object has no clearly visible identification which would legally entitled this thing to be at my place, as far as I'm concerned at this moment, it is an intruder and I should have right to deal with it per my discreation - either let it go or take it out.

Having said that, if this thing does "nothing", and just flies over my house, is this really a case to consider it an intruder presenting any kind of immediate danger? Possibly yes? because while it may not formally armed with any dedicated weaponary, like, say, a gunship, the rotating blades, along with this thing having certain capability of being guided/used as gravitational or kinetic energy bomb, can be very dangerous.

And what if such device is suspected of being used as an industrial spy (stealing intellectual property) or paparazzi tool (invasion of privacy)? It would be difficult to just stop it by talking dirty or puching it in the kisser. Call police to come over and get rid of it?

Logically, air space above property, up to the certain limit, must be considered a part of the property, because property can not, logically, be physically used by the owner of the property w/o air. The question then becomes the matter of determining what is the limit and how to establish it.

I think it is an interesting question, which may become relevant in the near future.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if one of them is hanging there in the air a few feet above my house or various ground based appliances, like gas tanks, power generators, etc... and I do not have any prior warning, agreement with the owner of this flying object or this flying object has no clearly visible identification which would legally entitled this thing to be there, as far as I'm concerned at this moment, it is an intruder and I should have right to deal with it per my discreation - either let it go or take it out.

Logically, air space above property, up to the certain limit, must be considered a part of the property, because property can not, logically, be physically used by the owner of the property w/o air. The question then becomes the matter of determining what is the limit and how to establish it.</div></div>

You are correct and you can legally take it out provided it's within the borders of your property and in doing so your actions won't possibly harm anything outside of your property. I'd have to do some heavy research but I'm fairly certain it's already been ruled upon with the courts. Even if it was a Government vessel you still have your property rights protected by the constitution and any attempt to search your property without a presented warrant would be a clear violation of those rights. As for how far up in the air they have to be before it falls within the governments jurisdiction you would need to research it as I don't know exactly.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if one of them is hanging there in the air a few feet above my house or various ground based appliances, like gas tanks, power generators, etc... and I do not have any prior warning, agreement with the owner of this flying object or this flying object has no clearly visible identification which would legally entitled this thing to be there, as far as I'm concerned at this moment, it is an intruder and I should have right to deal with it per my discreation - either let it go or take it out.

Logically, air space above property, up to the certain limit, must be considered a part of the property, because property can not, logically, be physically used by the owner of the property w/o air. The question then becomes the matter of determining what is the limit and how to establish it.</div></div>

You are correct and you can legally take it out provided it's within the borders of your property and in doing so your actions won't possibly harm anything outside of your property. I'd have to do some heavy research but I'm fairly certain it's already been ruled upon with the courts. Even if it was a Government vessel you still have your property rights protected by the constitution and any attempt to search your property without a presented warrant would be a clear violation of those rights. As for how far up in the air they have to be before it falls within the governments jurisdiction you would need to research it as I don't know exactly. </div></div>

I'm not so sure that is accurate. I would hesitate to "take out" anything. The general rule of thumb is 500 feet (or 150 meters) AGL, from people, and/or man made structures unless the aircraft is taking off or landing (in which case it can be closer than 500 feet!)

I know that UAVs arrived much later than existing statute pertaining to manned aircraft so I'm sure that further definition is overdue.

Also, the constitution does not protect the airspace above your property (I'm guessing you are referring to the 4th amendment). An aircraft can fly or hover over your property just as a car can park in front of it.

Taking violent action in the name of the Constitution would prove folly. You're best served attempting to identify the aircraft and then making a formal inquiry.

By the way, I'm just trying to give you good info to keep you, your family and your finances out of government reach.

Just my 2 cents and worth every penny you paid for it.

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if one of them is hanging there in the air a few feet above my house or various ground based appliances, like gas tanks, power generators, etc... and I do not have any prior warning, agreement with the owner of this flying object or this flying object has no clearly visible identification which would legally entitled this thing to be there, as far as I'm concerned at this moment, it is an intruder and I should have right to deal with it per my discreation - either let it go or take it out.

Logically, air space above property, up to the certain limit, must be considered a part of the property, because property can not, logically, be physically used by the owner of the property w/o air. The question then becomes the matter of determining what is the limit and how to establish it.</div></div>

You are correct and you can legally take it out provided it's within the borders of your property and in doing so your actions won't possibly harm anything outside of your property. I'd have to do some heavy research but I'm fairly certain it's already been ruled upon with the courts. Even if it was a Government vessel you still have your property rights protected by the constitution and any attempt to search your property without a presented warrant would be a clear violation of those rights. As for how far up in the air they have to be before it falls within the governments jurisdiction you would need to research it as I don't know exactly. </div></div>

I'm not so sure that is accurate. I would hesitate to "take out" anything. The general rule of thumb is 500 feet (or 150 meters) AGL, from people, and/or man made structures unless the aircraft is taking off or landing (in which case it can be closer than 500 feet!)

I know that UAVs arrived much later than existing statute pertaining to manned aircraft so I'm sure that further definition is overdue.

Also, the constitution does not protect the airspace above your property (I'm guessing you are referring to the 4th amendment). An aircraft can fly or hover over your property just as a car can park in front of it.

Taking violent action in the name of the Constitution would prove folly. You're best served attempting to identify the aircraft and then making a formal inquiry.

By the way, I'm just trying to give you good info to keep you, your family and your finances out of government reach.

Just my 2 cents and worth every penny you paid for it. </div></div>

I do not believe that <span style="font-weight: bold">small unmanned drones, which are the subject of this thread,</span> and which would be naturally bought, say, in toy stores or online, can be possibly qualified as conventional aircraft, subject to various government requlations. Otherwise, these little things should not likely be used by the owners w/o first obtaining, say, designated pilot licenses. These types of drones are likely should be regarded as model aircraft.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if one of them is hanging there in the air a few feet above my house or various ground based appliances, like gas tanks, power generators, etc... and I do not have any prior warning, agreement with the owner of this flying object or this flying object has no clearly visible identification which would legally entitled this thing to be there, as far as I'm concerned at this moment, it is an intruder and I should have right to deal with it per my discreation - either let it go or take it out.

Logically, air space above property, up to the certain limit, must be considered a part of the property, because property can not, logically, be physically used by the owner of the property w/o air. The question then becomes the matter of determining what is the limit and how to establish it.</div></div>

You are correct and you can legally take it out provided it's within the borders of your property and in doing so your actions won't possibly harm anything outside of your property. I'd have to do some heavy research but I'm fairly certain it's already been ruled upon with the courts. Even if it was a Government vessel you still have your property rights protected by the constitution and any attempt to search your property without a presented warrant would be a clear violation of those rights. As for how far up in the air they have to be before it falls within the governments jurisdiction you would need to research it as I don't know exactly. </div></div>

I'm not so sure that is accurate. I would hesitate to "take out" anything. The general rule of thumb is 500 feet (or 150 meters) AGL, from people, and/or man made structures unless the aircraft is taking off or landing (in which case it can be closer than 500 feet!)

I know that UAVs arrived much later than existing statute pertaining to manned aircraft so I'm sure that further definition is overdue.

Also, the constitution does not protect the airspace above your property (I'm guessing you are referring to the 4th amendment). An aircraft can fly or hover over your property just as a car can park in front of it.

Taking violent action in the name of the Constitution would prove folly. You're best served attempting to identify the aircraft and then making a formal inquiry.

By the way, I'm just trying to give you good info to keep you, your family and your finances out of government reach.

Just my 2 cents and worth every penny you paid for it. </div></div>

I do not believe that <span style="font-weight: bold">small unmanned drones, which are the subject of this thread,</span> and which would be naturally bought, say, in toy stores or online, can be possibly qualified as conventional aircraft, subject to various government requlations. Otherwise, these little things should not likely be used by the owners w/o first obtaining, say, designated pilot licenses. These types of drones are likely should be regarded as model aircraft. </div></div>

Fair enough. I understand the point of the thread...but was attempting to apply legal airspace to this scenario.

So, if somebody were flying a model aircraft over your property, what constitutes the trespass or invasion of privacy, or danger? You kinda need to articulate this in advance, so when you're standing there with a smoking shotgun, you already have the answer.

Also, just imagine if this "UAV" was government owned. Do you think they'd just chalk it up to a loss and go grab some beers while a new one gets built? No....you'd be buying them a new one on top of whatever they decided to charge you with criminally.

Again, I'm not arguing with you...I'm just playing the devils advocate to give you different perspective to consider.

But hell, if you decide to blow that thing out of the sky, post a vid LOL!

 

[Maggot]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Sir, I thought it was an alien spacecraft intent on invadeing earth so I did what any other patriotic american boy would do....I plugged the bitch with 00 buckshot. Sorry about your drone ...next time alert me that your going to be over my property with out a warrant and I wont sh

oot.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious to learn about this subject.</div></div>
Go to your local Ham Radio club, have one of the guys with a RF scanner, parabolic dish, and RF generator come by, take control, then crash it. After they loose 2 (at least around here) they tend to go elsewhere. Unless it has a warm body in it, they are all subject to takeover.
Ask Israel, they are Masters at it.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Just a note on the FAA's take on the situation:

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=14153

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 2012 reauthorization bill also directed the FAA to “allow a government public safety agency to operate unmanned aircraft weighing 4.4 pounds or less” under certain restrictions. The bill specified these UAS must be flown within the line of sight of the operator, less than 400 feet above the ground, during daylight conditions, inside Class G (uncontrolled) airspace and more than five miles from any airport or other location with aviation activities.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go to your local Ham Radio club, have one of the guys with a RF scanner, parabolic dish, and RF generator come by, take control, then crash it.</div></div>

This sounds like a great way to become intimately familiar with at least two government agencies.

 

[Victory]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Many of the drones being used do need licenses to fly.

When crashed, they do not explode into a fireball, in fact many don't land, they crash land and are made to do so. Stop watching movies, they seem to be creating a fear in you that has gotten a little out of control.

Good luck using that ham radio to take control of these drones. These aren't Walmart RC helicopters, they have encrypted signals. And before you say it, yes that can be hacked, but I'm going to guess no one here has the resources like Israelis do at their disposal.

As for shooting them down with your shot gun. LOL
Good luck with that. These are equipped with a large variety of cameras that put them out of your max effective range. You will hear them and many times see them, but wont be able to engage them. Maybe the PD's are flying lower, but with the technology out there, its not really needed.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would you guys do if you're on your private property and you see drone flying above your head?

I've decided I'll grab my shotgun and shoot that thing down. My logic is that it would be a direct violation of my privacy rights while being on my private property, and anything transpassing, without my invitation or court order, in air space above property in close proximity to the ground is the invasion of privacy and is not acceptable.</div></div>First of all, one's personal logic isn't a standard that the legal system uses; second, deadly force is not an acceptable response to a violation of privacy or a trespass; and third, airspace isn't property.

See you in jail.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What would you guys do if you're on your private property and you see drone flying above your head?

I've decided I'll grab my shotgun and shoot that thing down. My logic is that it would be a direct violation of my privacy rights while being on my private property, and anything transpassing, without my invitation or court order, in air space above property in close proximity to the ground is the invasion of privacy and is not acceptable.</div></div>See you in jail.

First of all, your logic isn't a standard that the legal system uses; and second, deadly force is not an acceptable response to a violation of privacy. </div></div>

So how is it deadly force to shoot a non living object? Secondly, I dont think one could be prosecuted for shooting down his neighbors kids RC plane, so how would you know its the gubmint's if they dont notify you in advance.

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Gentlemen,

Thanks a lot for all the info and opinions.

I do not specifically asking about government unmanned owned small size drones. Besides all, if drone is flying around my house and has no identification, how I'm supposed to know if this is a government/LE drone or not, unless it has a search warrant or other related doc printed in exremely large font attached to it... or something like "U.S. Airforce" or "Police" or whatever which makes things clear...Sure, I'll not be trying to take this one out, I'm not that stupid. I think if government decides to use air observation and monitoring means of this kind, they would likely be using something more sophisticated, flying at much higher altitude anyway...

Of course, if it has something like "allah akbar" painted on it, I'll kill it right away, if I can hit it... But what if it has no I.D. marking of any kind and is flying at low altitude above my property in very close proximity to myself, my family or dwellings? I think I would be pretty safe to whack it, if such device does not react to my instructions to leave my private property immediately... How is it different from having, say, remotely controlled ground vehicle running around my property?

If, say, you're a prosecutor, what kind of charges I may be facing in case of intrusion by unidentified unmanned drone?

Not trying to bullshit, just seriously curious about possible case of intrusion by air and how to stop it.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how is it deadly force to shoot a non living object?</div></div>It's a level of force sufficient to cause serious harm, which makes it <span style="font-style: italic">de facto</span> unreasonable as a response to a non-threatening action - in other words: Reckless.

 

[Victory]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

LOL, i'm done with this one.

Enjoy fantasy land and those AQ drones attacking you in BF Egypt.

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

O.K., found it:

http://aviation.uslegal.com/ownership-of-airspace-over-property/

Airspace above private property is indeed landowner's property, with some altitute restrictions, so an action to stop unwanted transpassing by air can be taken.

No more questions.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airspace above private property is indeed landowner's property, with some altitute restrictions, so an action to stop unwanted transpassing by air can be taken.</div></div>You could seek an injunction.

You can't simply blow-away everything that's not supposed to be on your property.

Have a look at MCL 750.377a.

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airspace above private property is indeed landowner's property, with some altitute restrictions, so an action to stop unwanted transpassing by air can be taken.</div></div>You could seek an injunction.

You can't simply blow-away everything that's not supposed to be on your property.

Have a look at MCL 750.377a. </div></div>

1. Of course, I'm not going to blow-away everything.

2. If I'm to seek an injuction, I must know who is the subject of injunction. If flying thing has no I.D. marking, the only way to know is to examine the thing in hopes of finding who is the subject of injuction, which means it should be brought down. Because I can not physically jump so high, got to use something to reach it.

Makes sense?

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

The reference earlier, to using a shotgun (typical) and buckshot (typical) is 'deadly force'.

I propose then, that you make up your own version of 'grape-shot' using split-shot sinkers and a bicycle's brake cable. Therefore, you can call it a prototype:

"Powder-Actuated Fly-Swatter", some assembly required.

And link us to vids, please!

 

[kortik]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reference earlier, to using a shotgun (typical) and buckshot (typical) is 'deadly force'.

I propose then, that you make up your own version of 'grape-shot' using split-shot sinkers and a bicycle's brake cable. Therefore, you can call it a prototype:

"Powder-Actuated Fly-Swatter", some assembly required.

And link us to vids, please! </div></div>

I would not go so far to reach an objective... Definition of "deadly force" can not be possibly applied to none-living objects. Otherwise, everybody shooting (for practice) at used cars, PCs and even paper targets would be using "deadly force" and should be punished by law. For some reason, it's not happening. Good enough precedent for me to use as an argument.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Don't make it more than it is: I was just making the comment that deadly force is not an appropriate response to trespass, so shooting at things just because they are 'invading your space' isn't reasonable.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go to your local Ham Radio club, have one of the guys with a RF scanner, parabolic dish, and RF generator come by, take control, then crash it.</div></div>

This sounds like a great way to become intimately familiar with at least two government agencies. </div></div>

I'll die but once, You?

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>We all die. The plan is to die in bed, at age 96, shot by a jealous husband... And not earlier and at the hand of someone who wants to make you a poster-child for their cause.

 

[Don'tTaseMeBro]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

WTF? Is this really a conversation? Wow. New level of window licker. Put your helmet back on please.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Also, a good rule of thumb is, the airspace above your house is a rough equivalent to the curbline street parking in front of your house.

The government requires no warrant to occupy either.

The public has legal right to occupy either.

Damage to somebody else's property (by you) at either location can be considered vandalism resulting in civil and legal liability.

People can endanger your property via both. The question becomes, when is your life or property in such danger that it would force an overt action by you in order to protect said life and property? It's a part of the age old legal question; what is reasonable vs. unreasonable and who determines that?

Whatever you do, you might want to plug in your desired action to the above curbline scenario and see if it seems reasonable to you.

Just more food for thought.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>We all die. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">The plan is to die in bed, at age 96, shot by a jealous husband... </span></span>And not earlier and at the hand of someone who wants to make you a poster-child for their cause. </div></div>

HAHAHA!! That's awesome!

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don'tTaseMeBro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put your helmet back on please. </div></div>You may want to take another look at your avatar.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>We all die. The plan is to die in bed, at age 96, shot by a jealous husband... And not earlier and at the hand of someone who wants to make you a poster-child for their cause. </div></div>
Not wanting to be a poster child and stay in the bent over mode is why this country is like it is. However, I believe that will change in the near future. Good to see who stands where.

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>We all die. The plan is to die in bed, at age 96, shot by a jealous husband... And not earlier and at the hand of someone who wants to make you a poster-child for their cause. </div></div>Not wanting to be a poster child and stay in the bent over mode is why this country is like it is. However, I believe that will change in the near future. Good to see who stands where. </div></div>I've seen it with my own eyes: In Europe; in Australia; in Canada. The 'from our cold dead fingers' crowd lined-up obediently and handed everything in.

And I'm not criticizing them. Because are you prepared to lose your family, your livelihood, and your freedom over a ten-round magazine? I am not.

If I'm not being held indefinitely without charge in some middle-eastern country, or being roasted over a propane torch in Iran, or watching my wife and daughter raped in front of me in Syria, or having my fingers dipped in acid in Iraq, then I'm calling myself fortunate.

Your life-experiences and your level of commitment may vary from that. And that's OK, too.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Like I said, it's nice to know who stands where.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>We all die. The plan is to die in bed, at age 96, shot by a jealous husband... And not earlier and at the hand of someone who wants to make you a poster-child for their cause. </div></div>Not wanting to be a poster child and stay in the bent over mode is why this country is like it is. However, I believe that will change in the near future. Good to see who stands where. </div></div>I've seen it with my own eyes: In Europe; in Australia; in Canada. The 'from our cold dead fingers' crowd lined-up obediently and handed everything in.

And I'm not criticizing them. Because are you prepared to lose your family, your livelihood, and your freedom over a ten-round magazine? Because I am not.</div></div>

So I'll assume then that you'll be dropping a dime on others at some point down the road to keep your fingers out of their pliers and tin shears?

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, it's nice to know who stands where. </div></div>In my experience, it doesn't matter who stands where until it matters. And even then it doesn't matter because events are unfolding and action is required. That's why one can't predict a hero: The strong sometimes fail; and the unlikely often suprise us. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I'll assume then that you'll be dropping a dime on others at some point down the road to keep your fingers out of their pliers and tin shears? </div></div>Excellent question. The truth is that one never knows until one is tested. And I wish that test on no one - not even an enemy.

 

[GGGN]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Oboma already signed bill/law requiring FAA to make airspace in US clear for drones. Conroe TX police Dept. has had HELO drones for a while. Hell I had one over my house for about 5 min four days ago. You know if they have been doing this with the ones we can see the ones we cant have been flying for a while. They used the preditors during the whashington"sniper" that was killing people. Drone cought the flash coming from the trunck of the car. But until we can vote some people in to fix this there is not much we can do until there is enough of us to make noise load enough for them to hear.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, it's nice to know who stands where. </div></div>In my experience, it doesn't matter who stands where until it matters. </div></div>
That kind of logic is why it has got to the point it is. I won't piss on the graves of my kin folk and all the others who gave so much for what we had/have. If you won't fight over a 10 rd mag, where do you draw the line? Or would you be willing to give them all up in the name if safety an comfort?

 

[Graham]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That kind of logic is why it has got to the point it is. I won't piss on the graves of my kin folk and all the others who gave so much for what we had/have.If you won't fight over a 10 rd mag, where do you draw the line? Or would you be willing to give them all up in the name if safety an comfort? </div></div>Fight legally, sure. Overreact and burn the house down? Nope.

Our kinfolk/forefathers didn't fight and die so that we can ignore the system that they created whenever our personal selfishness disagrees with the result.

It's always a judgment call. That's what makes it so tricky.

My point is only that there's often a line of shit between what people say, and what they actually do.

 

[Guest]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My point is only that there's often a line of shit between what people say, and what they actually do. </div></div>
That is correct, and many play both sides depending on who is playing or they are playing up to. Watch and read long enough and fence jumpers become very apparent. Make no mistake, lines are being drawn, and sides are being chosen, just like when this nation was first founded.
Strange, it's the same issue that started it back when.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

As I remember, Washington led from the front. Thats why he was tho only president ever elected unanimously. Twice. And then willingly refused to accept the office again because he didnt want to be king. Until Roosevelt, that precedent held. Thats why its WASHINGTON, dc. Ive read his history. He loved this land more than anything and when it called on him he gave with out reservation. God, but that wwe had men like him today. He and the others ho said

"We pledge our lives, our fortunes, our sacred honor."

Amen.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

So much wrong with multiple statements here but I'll comment on the immediate...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, the constitution does not protect the airspace above your property (I'm guessing you are referring to the 4th amendment). An aircraft can fly or hover over your property just as a car can park in front of it.

Taking violent action in the name of the Constitution would prove folly. You're best served attempting to identify the aircraft and then making a formal inquiry.
</div></div>

I wasn't referring to commercial airspace nor the property rights in the sense you're thinking but in the aspect of the right to secure yourself and your property against illegal searches which IS a Constitutional Right that protects property rights. And you are incorrect as you're not allowed to just hover directly above someones house nor are you allowed to fly through someones property below a certain altitude without consent or some form of legal easement.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...airspace isn't property.</div></div>

That is incorrect Graham and although I normally wouldn't argue with you when it comes to the law, on this I will take exception. You have "Air Rights" along with a bundle of other rights such as "Mineral Rights" and the right to "Quiet Enjoyment". When you purchase a condo you're in effect purchasing a parcel of air property and the right to undisturbed use of such appurtenance. For instance... in 2005 the people developing Seattle's Four Seasons Hotel purchased the air rights above a theater to prevent the possible blocking of views at a future date. Another example, The New York Central and New Haven railroads sold rights above the tracks in areas along with surface easements which were purchased by The Park Avenue Development to build commercial buildings over the tracks. (Examples pulled from Rockwell Real Estate Law 6th Ed.) It's the best I could do for giving examples on short notice, lol

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could seek an injunction.

You can't simply blow-away everything that's not supposed to be on your property.

Have a look at MCL 750.377a. </div></div>

And when a person unlawfully uses their personal property to endanger and/or impede on your rights or physical being do you really think that will stand up in court? Also, your property is not under protection when being used in the commission of a crime such ie trespassing or any number of other crimes. I don't know the legal jargon for it, but I've been in court on several occasions where someones property was damaged as a result of being in the commission of a crime and the judge told them tough shit.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, a good rule of thumb is, the airspace above your house is a rough equivalent to the curbline street parking in front of your house.

The government requires no warrant to occupy either.

The public has legal right to occupy either.

Damage to somebody else's property (by you) at either location can be considered vandalism resulting in civil and legal liability.

People can endanger your property via both. The question becomes, when is your life or property in such danger that it would force an overt action by you in order to protect said life and property? It's a part of the age old legal question; what is reasonable vs. unreasonable and who determines that?

Whatever you do, you might want to plug in your desired action to the above curbline scenario and see if it seems reasonable to you.

Just more food for thought.

</div></div>
The airspace around and directly above your home are NOT public domain. I don't know where you're coming up with this shit but your way off. By your theory someone could then run a zipline across your property, or an extreme hypothetical example, LEO using a snorklift to hover over your property line to peek into your house but claiming to not be technically on the property. There's a big difference between a sidewalk/curb that has a legal and recorded easement and the airspace above your property. And at ZERO time is anyone ever allowed to endanger you or your property WHILE ON YOUR PROPERTY which is the topic of discussion. If someone is hovering a drone within the borders of your property and below at minimum the roof line of your house then they are in FACT on your property illegally.