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Drones, privacy and private property

Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make no mistake, lines are being drawn, and sides are being chosen, just like when this nation was first founded. Strange, it's the same issue that started it back when.</div></div>It always is.

Thomas Jefferson said that if we do not exercise our ethical muscle it will become soft from lack of use and fail us when we need it most. There has always been this tension between the normal and the difficult: We see it our legal system, in the conflict between what is legal and what is moral. Of course, it would be naïve to assume that it is possible to avoid the necessity of politics within a system or a society.

After World War II, Albert Camus was asked why he had chosen resistance to the Nazis over collaboration when so many of his countrymen chose abdication and personal survival. He replied that the question made no sense because he couldn’t imagine himself doing anything else. He added: ‘I understood [about myself] that I detested less the violence than the institutions of violence.’ Camus was not a contrarian. He never disagreed for the pleasure of it. For him dissent was not an end in itself, but the mark of deeper values.

But unlike Camus, ordinary people who don’t have the stomach for the occasional nasty realities of politics retreat into themselves and choose not to exercise their ethical muscle. When they do this they act to the detriment of the system and all its participants.

And unlike Vichy France, our system has checks and balances which, although flawed, are designed to work together to achieve justice. Those of us trying to achieve justice within a politicized system must realize that it can be a tricky game with murky rules. But the system does not require that we always win, only that we participate. Because when its leaders are not the nice people they appear to be, those who cannot defend themselves in virtuous terms erode their power by earning the disregard of the people.

Meanwhile, today everyone continues to struggle with the same old question, one that has been with us since Gregory the Great in the sixth century, of whether or not to obey when an order is unjust.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

People who wait for someone else to do their bidding and dirty work, deserve nothing. Much like those who have never brought anything to the table, but demand their freebies. They have never fought for anything other than their free food, cell phone, housing, medical, ect.
All the tic's want a seat at the OWO table, but w/o total gun control,... Like we say in the south, that dog won't hunt.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The airspace around and directly above your home are NOT public domain. I don't know where you're coming up with this shit but your way off. By your theory someone could then run a zipline across your property, or an extreme hypothetical example, LEO using a snorklift to hover over your property line to peek into your house but claiming to not be technically on the property. There's a big difference between a sidewalk/curb that has a legal and recorded easement and the airspace above your property. And at ZERO time is anyone ever allowed to endanger you or your property WHILE ON YOUR PROPERTY which is the topic of discussion. If someone is hovering a drone within the borders of your property and below at minimum the roof line of your house then they are in FACT on your property illegally. </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can hover over somebody's property all day long, if the aircraft doesn't pose a hazard to life or property and is 150m away from structures. An aircraft also cannot hover/fly over property if it reasonably infringes on the owners enjoyment of that property.

At no time did I say that it was okay to endanger property. If I did, go ahead and quote me.

My original statements that you quoted me on are still correct. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is originating from.....

As for the zipline comment, I believe that ziplines constitute airspace as much as any other structure. It would be considered a structure running through property and not an aircraft. Zipline = aircraft....really?????

If you read my previous postings you'll see that I already noted the airspace regulations. Are you just taking my statements out of context for the sake of argument?

Also, for the curbline/airspace analogy, I stated that it was a lose interpretation....but the rule of thumb was to see how the law is applied when taking overt action against somebody else's property. I'm fully aware that they are vastly different. I wasn't trying to pawn an apple off as an orange. I guess you didn't see the point of it.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Gunfighter14e2 said:
After World War II, Albert Camus was asked why he had chosen resistance to the Nazis over collaboration when so many of his countrymen chose abdication and personal survival. He replied that the question made no sense because he couldn&#146;t imagine himself doing anything else. He added: &#145;I understood [about myself] that I detested less the violence than the institutions of violence.&#146; Camus was not a contrarian. He never disagreed for the pleasure of it. For him dissent was not an end in itself, but the mark of deeper values.

</div></div>

This is called a moral imperative...in other words "I do what i do because (morally for me) there is NO option. This is the core of my being."

Broker Quote"...And when a person unlawfully uses their personal property to endanger and/or impede on your rights or physical being do you really think that will stand up in court? Also, your property is not under protection when being used in the commission of a crime such ie trespassing or any number of other crimes. I don't know the legal jargon for it, but I've been in court on several occasions where someones property was damaged as a result of being in the commission of a crime and the judge told them tough shit.
quote]

Called being in jepordy "Secundum quid",.... if you break into someones house and are bitten by their dog its your own fault and responsibility because you were already in the wrong.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>

I don't know where I'll die, but it's not my intention to do so while in prison serving a felony sentence for doing some dumb shit to a drone during peacetime using RF and breaking all sort of FAA and FCC rules in the process. Maybe you have different plans for your life.

If you really have experience taking down a drone already, then hopefully you're smart enough to realize that bragging about it on a public forum is pretty fucking stupid. And if you haven't brought one down, then it might be a good idea to settle down with the bravado.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The airspace around and directly above your home are NOT public domain. I don't know where you're coming up with this shit but your way off. By your theory someone could then run a zipline across your property, or an extreme hypothetical example, LEO using a snorklift to hover over your property line to peek into your house but claiming to not be technically on the property. There's a big difference between a sidewalk/curb that has a legal and recorded easement and the airspace above your property. And at ZERO time is anyone ever allowed to endanger you or your property WHILE ON YOUR PROPERTY which is the topic of discussion. If someone is hovering a drone within the borders of your property and below at minimum the roof line of your house then they are in FACT on your property illegally. </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can hover over somebody's property all day long, if the aircraft doesn't pose a hazard to life or property and is 150m away from structures. An aircraft also cannot hover/fly over property if it reasonably infringes on the owners enjoyment of that property.

At no time did I say that it was okay to endanger property. If I did, go ahead and quote me.

My original statements that you quoted me on are still correct. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is originating from.....

As for the zipline comment, I believe that ziplines constitute airspace as much as any other structure. It would be considered a structure running through property and not an aircraft. Zipline = aircraft....really?????

If you read my previous postings you'll see that I already noted the airspace regulations. Are you just taking my statements out of context for the sake of argument?

Also, for the curbline/airspace analogy, I stated that it was a lose interpretation....but the rule of thumb was to see how the law is applied when taking overt action against somebody else's property. I'm fully aware that they are vastly different. I wasn't trying to pawn an apple off as an orange. I guess you didn't see the point of it. </div></div>

By your own admission they have to remain 150m away and can't disturb their right of enjoyment of the property, but you're still arguing it's public domain? We're talking about someone or something hovering right next to the house, not a news helicopter 500 ft in the air. And the lower airspace is NOT public domain. You're trying to equate commercial to lower which as I already stated are 2 different areas. Airspace IS an appurtenance of the property owner and is not public nor government domain. Also... Please learn the definition of "quote". I believed you to be giving an impression but I never quoted you in my writing. And yes... a zipline is equivalent to aircraft in that they both are forms of transportation and neither make contact with the property ground surface but simply utilize airspace.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The airspace around and directly above your home are NOT public domain. I don't know where you're coming up with this shit but your way off. By your theory someone could then run a zipline across your property, or an extreme hypothetical example, LEO using a snorklift to hover over your property line to peek into your house but claiming to not be technically on the property. There's a big difference between a sidewalk/curb that has a legal and recorded easement and the airspace above your property. And at ZERO time is anyone ever allowed to endanger you or your property WHILE ON YOUR PROPERTY which is the topic of discussion. If someone is hovering a drone within the borders of your property and below at minimum the roof line of your house then they are in FACT on your property illegally. </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can hover over somebody's property all day long, if the aircraft doesn't pose a hazard to life or property and is 150m away from structures. An aircraft also cannot hover/fly over property if it reasonably infringes on the owners enjoyment of that property.

At no time did I say that it was okay to endanger property. If I did, go ahead and quote me.

My original statements that you quoted me on are still correct. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is originating from.....

As for the zipline comment, I believe that ziplines constitute airspace as much as any other structure. It would be considered a structure running through property and not an aircraft. Zipline = aircraft....really?????

If you read my previous postings you'll see that I already noted the airspace regulations. Are you just taking my statements out of context for the sake of argument?

Also, for the curbline/airspace analogy, I stated that it was a lose interpretation....but the rule of thumb was to see how the law is applied when taking overt action against somebody else's property. I'm fully aware that they are vastly different. I wasn't trying to pawn an apple off as an orange. I guess you didn't see the point of it. </div></div>

By your own admission they have to remain 150m away and can't disturb their right of enjoyment of the property, but you're still arguing it's public domain? We're talking about someone or something hovering right next to the house, not a news helicopter 500 ft in the air. And the lower airspace is NOT public domain. You're trying to equate commercial to lower which as I already stated are 2 different areas. Airspace IS an appurtenance of the property owner and is not public nor government domain. Also... Please learn the definition of "quote". I believed you to be giving an impression but I never quoted you in my writing. And yes... a zipline is equivalent to aircraft in that they both are forms of transportation and neither make contact with the property ground surface but simply utilize airspace. </div></div>

I never stated that it was legal to get closer than 150m, so yes, my definition remains correct.

Maybe I misunderstood the original post. I didn't see anything in there about any type of aircraft breaking the 150m rule; did you? Maybe I missed it...

While you are tripping all over definitions, my point remains; one is allowed to occupy the airspace (commercial by your definition) above another person's property. Slice this and define this anyway you like....but I am still correct. The general public is allowed both in front of your house on the public (or commercial if you please) highway, as one is allowed to hover over your property.

Speaking of definition, I understand what a quote is. I used "quote" as the common day term to copying an internet thread reply. ...Yet more semantic definition challenging while missing the intended message.

Lastly, a zipline is not an aircraft. It is a structure. If I'm hanging from a powerline, am I now in an aircraft? No; I'm an idiot swinging from a powerline.

Does the FAA regulate ziplines? Do you need a pilot's license to construct or use one? Is a zipline not attached to the ground in any way? Does a zipline require a fixed object, like a structure.

You can argue this till you're blue in the face but a zipline, in no way, is an aircraft; nor does it resemble one. It is a structure.

If somebody constructed one that went over your property, the FAA would laugh you right off of the phone when you called to complain.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The airspace around and directly above your home are NOT public domain. I don't know where you're coming up with this shit but your way off. By your theory someone could then run a zipline across your property, or an extreme hypothetical example, LEO using a snorklift to hover over your property line to peek into your house but claiming to not be technically on the property. There's a big difference between a sidewalk/curb that has a legal and recorded easement and the airspace above your property. And at ZERO time is anyone ever allowed to endanger you or your property WHILE ON YOUR PROPERTY which is the topic of discussion. If someone is hovering a drone within the borders of your property and below at minimum the roof line of your house then they are in FACT on your property illegally. </div></div>

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can hover over somebody's property all day long, if the aircraft doesn't pose a hazard to life or property and is 150m away from structures. An aircraft also cannot hover/fly over property if it reasonably infringes on the owners enjoyment of that property.

At no time did I say that it was okay to endanger property. If I did, go ahead and quote me.

My original statements that you quoted me on are still correct. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is originating from.....

As for the zipline comment, I believe that ziplines constitute airspace as much as any other structure. It would be considered a structure running through property and not an aircraft. Zipline = aircraft....really?????

If you read my previous postings you'll see that I already noted the airspace regulations. Are you just taking my statements out of context for the sake of argument?

Also, for the curbline/airspace analogy, I stated that it was a lose interpretation....but the rule of thumb was to see how the law is applied when taking overt action against somebody else's property. I'm fully aware that they are vastly different. I wasn't trying to pawn an apple off as an orange. I guess you didn't see the point of it. </div></div>

By your own admission they have to remain 150m away and can't disturb their right of enjoyment of the property, but you're still arguing it's public domain? We're talking about someone or something hovering right next to the house, not a news helicopter 500 ft in the air. And the lower airspace is NOT public domain. You're trying to equate commercial to lower which as I already stated are 2 different areas. Airspace IS an appurtenance of the property owner and is not public nor government domain. Also... Please learn the definition of "quote". I believed you to be giving an impression but I never quoted you in my writing. And yes... a zipline is equivalent to aircraft in that they both are forms of transportation and neither make contact with the property ground surface but simply utilize airspace. </div></div>

I never stated that it was legal to get closer than 150m, so yes, my definition remains correct.

Maybe I misunderstood the original post. I didn't see anything in there about any type of aircraft breaking the 150m rule; did you? Maybe I missed it...

While you are tripping all over definitions, my point remains; one is allowed to occupy the airspace (commercial by your definition) above another person's property. Slice this and define this anyway you like....but I am still correct. The general public is allowed both in front of your house on the public (or commercial if you please) highway, as one is allowed to hover over your property.

Speaking of definition, I understand what a quote is. I used "quote" as the common day term to copying an internet thread reply. ...Yet more semantic definition challenging while missing the intended message.

Lastly, a zipline is not an aircraft. It is a structure. If I'm hanging from a powerline, am I now in an aircraft? No; I'm an idiot swinging from a powerline.

Does the FAA regulate ziplines? Do you need a pilot's license to construct or use one? Is a zipline not attached to the ground in any way? Does a zipline require a fixed object, like a structure.

You can argue this till you're blue in the face but a zipline, in no way, is an aircraft; nor does it resemble one. It is a structure.

If somebody constructed one that went over your property, the FAA would laugh you right off of the phone when you called to complain. </div></div>

Broker,

Thank you. Your comments were certainly very educational and in line with the law, as far as I can tell quickly looking at some related info available on the net.

Bowman,

Thank you also for an intelligent discussion. It appears that you slightly misunderstood my posts. I was specifically asking about situation involving unmanned "toy" type flying objects, which are, being unmanned and controlable, do fall into category known as "drones", like, for example, a little remotely controlled helicopter, which can be purchased by anyone w/o restrictons. These can not fly at high altitudes anyway, not sure if they can fly at 150 meters or not, but they can negatively affect the factor of "enjoyment", which property owner is entitled to. Such flying devices can be also equipped with certain equipment like spy cameras, and even small explosive or incendary charges. In addition to being annoying, they can, therefore, present an immediate danger to the property owner interests and well being. If such flying device does not have identification markings, visible from the ground and pointing at the party responsible for operating such device, it becomes impossible to file an injunction simply because it is not possible to identify the party responsible for flying/controling such device. So, what can the property owner do in this case to protect "air rights"? The only logical answer I can think about at the moment is to take such device down, for example, with a shogun, collect it as evidence, involve LE, inspect it, find responsible party, and then go to injunction process.

Any other suggestions how to deal with this kind of situation?
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bowman,

Thank you also for an intelligent discussion. It appears that you slightly misunderstood my posts. I was specifically asking about situation involving unmanned "toy" type flying objects, which are, being unmanned and controlable, do fall into category known as "drones", like, for example, a little remotely controlled helicopter, which can be purchased by anyone w/o restrictons. These can not fly at high altitudes anyway, not sure if they can fly at 150 meters or not, but they can negatively affect the factor of "enjoyment", which property owner is entitled to. Such flying devices can be also equipped with certain equipment like spy cameras, and even small explosive or incendary charges. In addition to being annoying, they can, therefore, present an immediate danger to the property owner interests and well being. If such flying device does not have identification markings, visible from the ground and pointing at the party responsible for operating such device, it becomes impossible to file an injunction simply because it is not possible to identify the party responsible for flying/controling such device. So, what can the property owner do in this case to protect "air rights"? The only logical answer I can think about at the moment is to take such device down, involve LE, inspect it, find responsible party then go to injunction process.

Any other suggestions how to deal with this kind of situation?
</div></div>

No problem at all!! I would probably change one very small detail.

Instead of:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The only logical answer I can think about at the moment <span style="color: #FF0000">is to take such device down, involve LE,</span> inspect it, find responsible party then go to injunction process. </div></div>

I'd try this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The only logical answer I can think about at the moment is <span style="color: #FF0000">to involve LE, take such device down</span>, inspect it, find responsible party then go to injunction process. </div></div>

It's a very minor detail. Sometimes the order in which we do things may be small but can make a world of difference. If your local LE gave you the green light (or brought it down themselves) then you would dramatically decrease the amount of possible legal liability. Just the notification in itself (in my opinion) conveys a lack of mal intent.

 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Bowman,

I like this idea about "notification" and asking, possibly, for the very urgent advice from the local LE.

O.K., thanks to Broker and you, I now got a solid idea on how to handle that kind of stuff, which was the main objective of initiating this thread.



 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

I am an Army Aviator and this discussion actually came up in flight school during an informal FAR discussion before a flight one night. What was determined was that and aircraft is an aircraft whether manned or unmanned. Would you be in trouble for shooting joe blow in his Cessna out of the sky just for flying over your property? Absolutely. You can go to prison for shining a laser pointer at an aircraft, let alone shoot at one. Dependent upon whether the airspace is regulatory or non-regulatory, then controlled or uncontrolled or special use airspace, basically I can hover my aircraft 500' AGL over wherever I want and if you take a shot at my aircraft then you are going to jail if not fired upon in defense. And if you live in an area designated as a Military operations area, the 500' rule does not apply. Sorry about your luck. Same applies to UAVs by definition as far as airspace goes. However, the is other laws that talk about intelligence gathering on US citizens on US soil. I can't speak about that as it is out of my field. Just my .02
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

I must have missed a page of post before I gave my opinion. We aren't talking about some aircraft with a registered tail number are we? I thought we were talking about a government owned aircraft. Sorry.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll die but once, You? </div></div>

Maybe you have different plans for your life. </div></div>
Yes I do. I live every day of my life on my feet not on my knees, in lock step with those trying to take over this nation, all in the name of whatever spin word they want to use that day.

Courts are still about proof, show me the last time the FCC proved a RF or microwave, takeover case? Better yet show me where the FCC, has enforced and proved a simple RF harassment case?
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

This is why I stand around in my yard nekkid looking into the sky flogging my dolphin with extreme vigor, maybe they will be traumatized and never return
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, it's nice to know who stands where. </div></div>In my experience, it doesn't matter who stands where until it matters. And even then it doesn't matter because events are unfolding and action is required. That's why one can't predict a hero: The strong sometimes fail; and the unlikely often suprise us. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I'll assume then that you'll be dropping a dime on others at some point down the road to keep your fingers out of their pliers and tin shears? </div></div>Excellent question. The truth is that one never knows until one is tested. And I wish that test on no one - not even an enemy. </div></div>

Oh my...
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Better yet show me where the FCC, has enforced and proved a simple RF harassment case?</div></div>

Education and news distribution must both be sorely lacking in your neck of the woods. Do a Google search on the term "fcc rf interference fines" and see what comes up. You'll get all sort of stories with headlines such as "FCC Fines Alaska Man for Interfering with Air Traffic Using CB Radio" and "$12,000 Fine for Uncertified Transmitter and Refusal to Cooperate with FCC Inspector".

The HAM radio folks that you supposedly know should be intimately familiar with FCC regulations and the vigor with which they are enforced. If one is not bright enough to understand that the FCC actively enforces its regulations, then I severely doubt that one is bright enough to be bringing down any drones using RF. If I'm wrong with that assessment, I certainly hope that one is bright enough to conceal one's activities, or else one will have to learn how to conduct a guerrilla war from behind bars.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

As a trap shooter I recommend at least a 32" barrel with a full choke and #6 shot.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The HAM radio folks that you supposedly know </div></div>
FYI, a 2x1 call sign holder here.
You don't get that license by being stupid, or not knowing the <span style="font-weight: bold">Rules</span>.
I do lots of RF and Mw testing which is within the <span style="font-weight: bold">"Rules"</span> and
I, am not obligated per the <span style="font-weight: bold">Rules</span> to inform anyone of said testing on my property, as long as I am within the Freq or Spectrum of my license or the <span style="font-weight: bold">Special Permit</span> that the FCC issues from time to time for testing.
It's all within the <span style="font-weight: bold">Rules</span> that you seem to be so worried about.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, a 2x1 call sign holder here.
You don't get that license by being stupid, or not knowing the <span style="font-weight: bold">Rules</span>. </div></div>

Good for you! I'm assuming, then, that your activities fall within the guidelines established by Part 15 and Part 97. And if such activities fall within those guidelines, then maybe those activities shouldn't be passed off as some sort of bad-ass revolutionary actions and accompanied by such a condescending attitude.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am an Army Aviator and this discussion actually came up in flight school during an informal FAR discussion before a flight one night. What was determined was that and aircraft is an aircraft whether manned or unmanned. Would you be in trouble for shooting joe blow in his Cessna out of the sky just for flying over your property? Absolutely. You can go to prison for shining a laser pointer at an aircraft, let alone shoot at one. Dependent upon whether the airspace is regulatory or non-regulatory, then controlled or uncontrolled or special use airspace, basically I can hover my aircraft 500' AGL over wherever I want and if you take a shot at my aircraft then you are going to jail if not fired upon in defense. And if you live in an area designated as a Military operations area, the 500' rule does not apply. Sorry about your luck. Same applies to UAVs by definition as far as airspace goes. However, the is other laws that talk about intelligence gathering on US citizens on US soil. I can't speak about that as it is out of my field. Just my .02 </div></div>

Fuck this is getting old... Again... 500' and above is not considered lower airspace and not what's in question. We're talking about someone flying a drone around on the property right next to the house ie within 50'. It would be trespassing, an illegal search without a warrant, and reckless endangerment, which ALL US Citizens are protected and have the right to protect themselves against such. We're also not talking about specific areas or easements that have legal rights designated as such either. And by your theory that means the military can come and go on my property as they please... You're a pilot and smart enough to tell me why that's not possible both constitutionally and lawfully. And the second the Military has the right to come and go on or across my property as they please then we have far greater things to worry about than drones.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry to burst your bubble, but you can hover over somebody's property all day long, if the aircraft doesn't pose a hazard to life or property and is 150m away from structures. An aircraft also cannot hover/fly over property if it reasonably infringes on the owners enjoyment of that property.

At no time did I say that it was okay to endanger property. If I did, go ahead and quote me.

My original statements that you quoted me on are still correct. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is originating from.....

As for the zipline comment, I believe that ziplines constitute airspace as much as any other structure. It would be considered a structure running through property and not an aircraft. Zipline = aircraft....really?????

If you read my previous postings you'll see that I already noted the airspace regulations. Are you just taking my statements out of context for the sake of argument?

Also, for the curbline/airspace analogy, I stated that it was a lose interpretation....but the rule of thumb was to see how the law is applied when taking overt action against somebody else's property. I'm fully aware that they are vastly different. I wasn't trying to pawn an apple off as an orange. I guess you didn't see the point of it. </div></div>

I love how when you give an analogy it's not literal but when I do it...

Again... You're reading into shit that I never said and putting words in my mouth. Did I say it was an aircraft? And if I didn't say it was an aircraft why would I call the FAA? You're beginning to remind me of every other oxygen thief on here who wants to try and spin shit poorly to make a point that was never in question to begin with.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, a 2x1 call sign holder here.
You don't get that license by being stupid, or not knowing the <span style="font-weight: bold">Rules</span>. </div></div>

Good for you! I'm assuming, then, that your activities fall within the guidelines established by Part 15 and Part 97.</div></div> You are missing one that pertains to special testing!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if such activities fall within those guidelines, then maybe those activities shouldn't be passed off as some sort of bad-ass revolutionary actions and accompanied by such a condescending attitude. </div></div>
It's more about how you can stay within the law, and completing the task at hand, until it's time to disregard the law. You ever speed, not come to a complete stop, ect?

The beauty is sometimes a large slow moving beast, will help you and never know it.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are missing one that pertains to special testing! </div></div>

I'd love to see a citation for a FCC regulation that would allow an amateur radio user to intentionally interfere with another user. Please point me in the right direction!
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are missing one that pertains to special testing! </div></div>

I'd love to see a citation for a FCC regulation that would allow an amateur radio user to intentionally interfere with another user. Please point me in the right direction! </div></div>

Show me where I said that?
I said testing, as the protocols prohibit intentional interference. However testing imply's unknowns, that is why it's called testing.
You are good at twisting words, I'll give you that.
You always wait until the need arises before you hone a skill? That is the liberal way if I recall correctly.
You know if you would worry more about your ability's/stance on issues than, worrying about other folks, you might find your closet logic would improve.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Show me where I said that?</div></div>

In response to my statement about the regulations contained within FCC Parts 15 and 97, you responded:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are missing one that pertains to special testing!</div></div>

OK - which "one" [regulation] exists that would allow you to interfere with another user? You said that I'm missing "one"; show it to me!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are good at twisting words, I'll give you that. </div></div>

I don't think that I am the one who is twisting words in this discussion.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Reading comp, ain't your thing is it?
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Consistency ain't your thing, is it? First you claimed to be going all Billy Badass and doing illegal black ops against drones, then you claimed that there is "one" regulation that allows you to do what you claim to do, and then you subtly twist that into a claim of reading-between-the-lines behavior.

Whatever. You've engaged in argumentative technique far too absurd to counter, and if you really claim to be doing what you're doing, folks far more important and interesting than myself will soon experience whatever it is that you pass off as logic. Enjoy!
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

I'd suggest you seek time on a couch, as your reading comp is inserting words into your brain, your eyes are not seeing.
It must be tough to follow along, when your first agenda never played out, but such is life.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd suggest you seek time on a couch</div></div>

I don't have time for that, just as I no longer have the time or patience to deal with your circular logic and hit-and-run argumentative technique. Feel free to roam about this thread unencumbered.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property



Fuck this is getting old... Again... 500' and above is not considered lower airspace and not what's in question. We're talking about someone flying a drone around on the property right next to the house ie within 50'. It would be trespassing, an illegal search without a warrant, and reckless endangerment, which ALL US Citizens are protected and have the right to protect themselves against such. We're also not talking about specific areas or easements that have legal rights designated as such either. And by your theory that means the military can come and go on my property as they please... You're a pilot and smart enough to tell me why that's not possible both constitutionally and lawfully. And the second the Military has the right to come and go on or across my property as they please then we have far greater things to worry about than drones. [/quote]

Obviously never heard if surface based airspace... Anyways there are rules about flying near structures or property in 14 CFR Part 91. You don't own the air, not even 50' from your house, regardless gyro stabilized cameras can watch in HD from miles away and you would never know. As for the military invading you property and your 4th amendment rights, where are you getting that?
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Obviously never heard if surface based airspace... Anyways there are rules about flying near structures or property in 14 CFR Part 91. <span style="font-weight: bold">You don't own the air, not even 50' from your house</span>, regardless gyro stabilized cameras can watch in HD from miles away and you would never know. As for the military invading you property and your 4th amendment rights, where are you getting that? </div></div>

Owner of the property DOES own air space above the property.
There are, of course, a number of limitations/conditions/applicable rules for both sides:
http://aviation.uslegal.com/ownership-of-airspace-over-property/

In case of a company/privately owned unmanned drone, entering and staying in property air space w/o owner permission, which is discussed in this thread, basics of this law appear to be on the side of the property owner, and also, are somewhat enhanced by 500 feet (150 meter) rule. Such drone, flying in air space within the property borders, will be commiting, by definition, a trespass (see link above).

Your ability to spy on the property owner from the air while being positioned in air space outside the property borders is not a subject of this discussion, although, it is definetely a cool option to have...
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously never heard if surface based airspace... Anyways there are rules about flying near structures or property in 14 CFR Part 91. You don't own the air, not even 50' from your house, regardless gyro stabilized cameras can watch in HD from miles away and you would never know. As for the military invading you property and your 4th amendment rights, where are you getting that? </div></div>

I must have just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and made all this up for my own amusement. First, You're trying to apply aeronautical definitions to legal definitions and it doesn't work that way. Second, if the military comes onto my property without permission then guess what... They're tresspassing and invading my property. Last... You go ahead and believe whatever you want because some instructor, CO, or any other person told you it was legal. It's amazing how someone asks a property rights question and here come aviators who think because they're pilots that now they have expert knowledge of property rights...
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Or the non aviators that think they have knowledge of aeronautical regulations... Where did I say anything about military trespassing? I believe what I said was that I could hover at 500' AGL and be legal per the FAR. I was just giving an opinion from the other side of the fence for no other reason than to offer insight. Sorry to make you all butt hurt, I didn't realize I was talking to a bunch of Google property lawyers. I'm out.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or the non aviators that think they have knowledge of aeronautical regulations... Where did I say anything about military trespassing? I believe what I said was that I could hover at 500' AGL and be legal per the FAR. I was just giving an opinion from the other side of the fence for no other reason than to offer insight. Sorry to make you all butt hurt, I didn't realize I was talking to a bunch of Google property lawyers. I'm out. </div></div>

Yeah because I googled it, lol.You keep trying to spin what I say like you're some victim. Wtf makes you think your knowledge of aeronautical regulations gives you expertise in property rights? And you weren't giving "opinions" but clearly trying to give facts that were completely erroneous.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

Sorry that was the first post directed at you. What facts were "erroneous"? If you look back at my second post in the thread I did say that I was off topic and misunderstood but the barracks lawyers keep resurrecting it after I said I was off topic. Originally I was talking about the legalities of flying an aircraft as a conversation that was discussed in a class I had in flight school. I didn't claim to be an expert in all things law. As far as the victim comment. WTF are you talking about? I don't give 2 shits if a drone or the neighbor kid flys his RC airplane over my property.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E. Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd suggest you seek time on a couch</div></div>

I don't have time for that, just as I no longer have the time or patience to deal with your circular logic and hit-and-run argumentative technique. Feel free to roam about this thread unencumbered. </div></div>
If you had not let your assumptions run wild Franks bandwidth would not have been eat up for nothing.

Your first mistake was assuming everyone is scared of the boggy man.

Your second was that I <span style="font-weight: bold">"Knew"</span> a Ham operator. If you would have done any checking at all you would have found I am a Ham operator.

Third you assumed incorrectly again I might add, that know one is smart enough to use the rules and laws to their advantage.

The bulk of pissing contests on the net are from assumptions, you don't get the eye contact. The other thing most forget is the experience level of the other party. Lots of one trick and no trick pony's out there, but there are folks who might be a step above the level you fell they are at.

Another group is the baiter's, those folks (and this site is full of them) are digging for answers about folks, and they may or may not be paid for the results.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I didn't claim to be an expert in all things law....</div></div>

You're probably a real good aviator, and it's also good that you do not claim to know the stuff that, say, Broker, who specializes in law, knows... Broker is correct that the level of legal knowledge given to millitary aviators, as a rule, is extremely limited, techically primitive and tailored to specific stuff. Broker is the professional in law and you're the professional aviator. In other words, I would never follow your legal advice, and I would not have Broker as my pilot, unless he happens to have a few hundred hours of actual flying, which he does not. That should settle it who is who...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... I don't give 2 shits if a drone or the neighbor kid flys his RC airplane over my property. </div></div>

I'm different form you and would be extremely bothered by somebody's action of flying various shit above my property at relatively low altitutes without my permission. For me, it's a clear sign of disrespect. May be it's a russian thingie (I was born and raised in the USSR), where not showning certain respect is a pretty often a big deal and may be taken as an offense. Combined with my deep appreciation of personal freedoms and rights provided by the Constitution of the U.S., I would resist to anything uninvited, either biologically alive or mechanical in nature, which I may consider, using legal term, a trespass into my world.

 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I didn't claim to be an expert in all things law....</div></div>

You're probably a real good aviator, and it's also good that you do not claim to know the stuff that, say, Broker, who specializes in law, knows... Broker is correct that the level of legal knowledge given to millitary aviators, as a rule, is extremely limited, techically primitive and tailored to specific stuff. Broker is the professional in law and you're the professional aviator. In other words, I would never follow your legal advice, and I would not have Broker as my pilot, unless he happens to have a few hundred hours of actual flying, which he does not. That should settle it who is who...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... I don't give 2 shits if a drone or the neighbor kid flys his RC airplane over my property. </div></div>

I'm different form you and would be extremely bothered by somebody's action of flying various shit above my property at relatively low altitutes without my permission. For me, it's a clear sign of disrespect. May be it's a russian thingie (I was born and raised in the USSR), where not showning certain respect is a pretty often a big deal and may be taken as an offense. Combined with my deep appreciation of personal freedoms and rights provided by the Constitution of the U.S., I would resist to anything uninvited, either biologically alive or mechanical in nature, which I may consider, using legal term, a trespass into my world.

</div></div>

Dont know how long youve been in the US but you seem to have a better appreciation of our freedom than many natural born citizens. Welcome, friend. Spasiba.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry that was the first post directed at you. What facts were "erroneous"? If you look back at my second post in the thread I did say that I was off topic and misunderstood but the barracks lawyers keep resurrecting it after I said I was off topic. Originally I was talking about the legalities of flying an aircraft as a conversation that was discussed in a class I had in flight school. I didn't claim to be an expert in all things law. As far as the victim comment. WTF are you talking about? I don't give 2 shits if a drone or the neighbor kid flys his RC airplane over my property. </div></div>

You and I must be on 2 totally different pages. Let me clarify with a specific example. There are drones out there other than Predators...

Quadricopters.jpg


NA-BO525_DRONES_G_20111212175427.jpg


drone_1582834b.jpg


When one of ^^^these^^^ is hovering within a few feet next to one of your windows or skylight and looking in at say your wife... or daughter... you going to tell me it won't bother you?

Quadricopter2.jpg


What about your kid playing in a fenced backyard and pointing ^^^up^^^ saying "Daddy what's that?"

 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

What about your kid playing in a fenced backyard and pointing ^^^up^^^ saying "Daddy what's that?"

</div></div>

I'd kindly reply "Target practice my child" and hand him/her the rifle.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

After researching this potential issue a bit more, here is what I will do if any drone is detected to fly within the borders of my private land under 500 feet:

1. If drone has clear government/LE markings, and is present within the borders of the property without the prior notice or search warrant supplied to me, let it go unharmed, but file a complaint/trespass charges/etc...

2. Any other flying object of this sort will be treated as a immediate threat with possibility of delivering of deadly force (as it posseses enough kinetic/potential energy to serve as a weapon, techically speaking), and will be engaged with available means of personal self defence.In addition, after identity of such flying object is determined, trespass charges will be filed.
 
Re: Drones, privacy and private property

http://gizmodo.com/5981975/black-hornet-...nd?popular=true

The lives of British soldiers in the Brigade Reconnaissance Force just got a little safer. Rather than having to undertake the dangerous task of checking for ambushes, investigating potential enemy positions themselves ("Go see if there are a bunch of guys with guns in that house"), or just sticking their head around the corner, they can now send this fist-sized spy 'copters to scout for danger ahead instead.

Dubbed the Black Hornet Nano Unmanned Aircraft System by its designer, Prox Dynamics of Norway, <span style="font-weight: bold">this micro-UAV measures 4 inches long and 1 inch tall with a 4-inch rotor span. It weighs just 16 grams, flies nearly silently, and is colored to match and blend in with the grey mud buildings of Afghan villages. The Black Hornet's payload consists of a single tiny camera that delivers both full motion video and still images back to the recon soldier's hand-held terminal up to 1000 meters away. </span>And while it may look like a child's toy, the Black Hornet has been ruggedized to handle the harsh, hot, and windy environments in which it operates.

xlarge.jpg