Multi is acceptable otherwise all the AR lower manufacturers would not be able to produce their lowers without a specific caliber designation. You cant tell me every AR lower manufacturer is stamping/engraving their lowers wrong.
Suppressors Electronic Form 4 Wait Times
- Thread starter Bunnypunter
- Start date
Your confusing title 1 firearms and title 2 firearms. The rules are different for them.
We are talking about sbr's
nfa. Not title 1 lowers.
Do not fill out a form 1
and put multi in as a caliber.
It will be kick back!!!!!!
nfa. Not title 1 lowers.
Do not fill out a form 1
and put multi in as a caliber.
It will be kick back!!!!!!
Explain that to PWS then(first factory SBR I could think of)
MK1, Mod 1 Rifle, 7.75in Barrel, .223 Wylde, Triad 556 - (NFA) Short Barreled Rifles
7.75" barrel factory gun with a multi marked lower
Hell Noveske doesn't even put anything for caliber on their lowers
NOVESKE - 10.5" GEN III Rifle
My Gen 2 lower is the same.
To further muck up the water until only a year or so ago the ATF would accept a form 1 with multiple calibers listed, not multi but for example "223, 330AAC, 6.8SPC" etc. Now they will not, you can only list one caliber or it will be sent back for corrections yet there was never a release from the ATF explaining this change in policy.
See why there is such a discrepancy in the industry if you actually do some research and don't just parrot what someone posts on an internet forum or what your buddy at the gun shop says?
I have a sneaky suspicion that as part of the general policy of "work to rule" letter-of-the-law that the NFA Section seems to operate under that because the NFA only authorizes a "short barrel" for an individual rifle, thus "making" an SBR that has three different caliber barrels is the same thing as making three different SBR's, which would likely require one to pay three different taxes and get 3 different approvals, one for each caliber. It is after all the BARREL that defines an SBR, not the receiver. The receiver carries the markings and is the "controlled" part of the gun, but since each barrel of a different caliber in essence creates a different SBR, they view each such combination as a "making" each time the upper is switched, just as putting a short-barreled upper on a non-title II AR lower is "making" an SBR, whereas swapping 16 in + uppers on a Title I isn't regulated at all. I wonder if its even possible to register the same lower for use with different caliber short uppers?
The rules say that you can exchange a 16+ upper for the short-barreled upper and then change them back again without "making" another SBR, and when the registered lower does not have a short upper on it you can use it in your state as a regular Title 1 rifle, but it is still a registered receiver, and if you "maintain dominion and control over" the necessary parts to turn it back into an SBR, then the receiver is still controlled by the NFA, which means that even if you leave your short upper home, you still have to get permission to move the receiver interstate and all other NFA rules apply. If you get rid of the short upper however, the registered lower is no longer governed by the NFA and can be sold or dealt with as any Title 1 firearm can, and there is not even a requirement to notify the NFA Section of the disposition of the registered part, although they highly recommend that you do so.
There's even more complex rules about what you can do if the original base firearm was originally a pistol that's been converted to an SBR. I haven't been able to get a clear understanding of that just yet, though I'm still trying.
Positively byzantine.
It should be simplified: If the rifle is configured with a short barrel, it must be registered and the tax paid and all NFA rules apply. If it's reconfigured with a long barrel, it should be treated like a Title 1 rifle for so long as it is so configured, provided that you don't have a short barrel "in close proximity" to the registered receiver when crossing state lines (you leave the short upper home in the gun safe when you go hunting). This prevents someone from theoretically configuring the rifle as a Title 1 rifle, moving it interstate under those regs while having the short barrel in the trunk and then restoring it to SBR configuration in the new state, thereby weaseling around the notification requirement (which shouldn't exist in the first place, but does.)
You absolutely can list multiple calibers when your doing an SBR on a form 1, you just have to know how to do it.. I did 15 in the last two weeks for customers, and have been doing them for years. And yes they all have been approved.
I charge $150 for engraving and your form 1 paper work.
I charge $150 for engraving and your form 1 paper work.
Well, that's good to know. So, how do we do it...or are you just drumming for business?
But yet you can send the ATF a letter stating the barrel and caliber change for your SBR and there isn't a reapproval process or an additional stamp to apply for...
Id like to know how youre able to do this as well since on eforms there isn't an option for multiple calibers to select from the drop down tab. On paper form 1s you could simply attach another form with additional rifle lengths and calibers but youd be an idiot to do a paper form these days with how slow it is and only needing to send a letter to the ATF if you really want to be on the up and up when/if you change caliber/barrel length and still remained an SBR.
The question is do you have to send them this notification each and every time you swap uppers, or just once?
Well its one of those grey area, in the FAQ it says "recommends" notifying the NFA Branch. I have not found anything in writing on an official website in reference to exactly what constitutes needing to notify the ATF/NFA about caliber/barrel change on an SBR, or a timeline you have to notify them, only that if you remove the SBR from the purview of the NFA that they recommend you notify them.
Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - National Firearms Act (NFA) - Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns | ATF
Right. But they do say that you can "temporarily" convert an SBR to a LBR for hunting or other purposes without either violating the NFA or having to notify them. The question is can you swap SHORT barrels of different calibers onto the registered receiver and still be in compliance. My guess would be that if your paperwork describes the specific caliber of the registered combination, that a short barrel of any other caliber won't match the paperwork and would be considered to be a different SBR.
Otherwise why would anybody be worrying about whether or not one can put "multi" or several different calibers on the Form 1. And what if you only have a Form 4? The essential question is whether changing calibers constitutes the "making" of a new firearm. Given the fact that you cannot change the length or caliber of a suppressor I'd say yes, but then again you can buy a silencer designed for use with multiple calibers.
Once again I'm confused....
You are correct there is nothing in the FAQ about SBRs that references swapping barrel lengths and calibers. All Ive heard or read about what needs to be done when doing this is simply stuff off the internet which I do not trust. Thus my extensive research into this whole subject. Its really of no worry for me as each of my SBRs form 1s were filed with the caliber and lengths that I plan to run and see no reason to change. Would be nice to know without a doubt what the answers are to these questions. Sounds like I need to make a phone call tomorrow and see if I cant get one of those letters out of the NFA branch clarifying my questions.
The form 4 on your silencer is listed as the largest bullet diameter that can go through it so its a bit different than SBR paperwork.
Good hell, as much as we all apprecaite some of you guys infinite knowledge on Form 1's and engraving, that is not what this thread was designed to discuss. Clearly, you have struggles reading the thread title. A few of you hijacked the holy shit out of this. Cheers gents.
I was hoping to set a basline for Electronic Form 4 Wait times. Maybe we could get this back on topic so those of us who give a shit about getting our cans sometime this century have referance for how longs its actually taking.
Ok, rant over. I'll go munch on some Miadol now.
I was hoping to set a basline for Electronic Form 4 Wait times. Maybe we could get this back on topic so those of us who give a shit about getting our cans sometime this century have referance for how longs its actually taking.
Ok, rant over. I'll go munch on some Miadol now.
I agree that keeping this thread about the wait times would be helpful as this is a whole new way of filing, and the wait times seem to be much different than the paper method.
Maybe a moderator can take the 20 or so SBR posts and put them in a separate thread so all that good info is retained?
Maybe a moderator can take the 20 or so SBR posts and put them in a separate thread so all that good info is retained?
The eform I filed on the 31st had multi as a caliber choice.
Alrighty then....
so using a trust, trying to convince some local dealers to go efile is proving daunting as they've been at this for a lot longer than me and aren't going to just take my word for it. Is the method for them to file listed on the eforms ATF site readily? Site is down at the moment so I can't confirm this on my on. Thanks
so using a trust, trying to convince some local dealers to go efile is proving daunting as they've been at this for a lot longer than me and aren't going to just take my word for it. Is the method for them to file listed on the eforms ATF site readily? Site is down at the moment so I can't confirm this on my on. Thanks
That option wasnt available in early september when I efiled two form 1s. So if that is in fact true then it muddys the waters up even further from what the guys above are saying.
Electronic Form 4 Wait Times
I filed an electronic Form 4 today (January 2nd, 2014). We'll see how long it takes.
Item: AAC Titan Ti
Purchased: 12/27/2013 (dealer had in stock)
Transferee Entity: Trust
eFiled: 1/2/2014
Pending: Instantly??
Received:
I filed an electronic Form 4 today (January 2nd, 2014). We'll see how long it takes.
Item: AAC Titan Ti
Purchased: 12/27/2013 (dealer had in stock)
Transferee Entity: Trust
eFiled: 1/2/2014
Pending: Instantly??
Received:
Dealer efiled a can and SBR for Form 3 transfer last week. He said his form 3s filed electronically had been running 4-6 weeks
Sssooo anyone been getting their Eform 4's approved in the past couple of days? All I see is talk about engraving..
So from the time it hits your dealer to stamp is around 4 months with this? Shit I'm still waiting going on 10 months right now for the standard paper filing.
Is the 4 months time legit? If so, I'm in for another suppressor.
Is the 4 months time legit? If so, I'm in for another suppressor.
I'm dealing with the same thing. One of the dealers in my area will only e-file if you purchase the can from him. Another is charging $100 on top of it for e-file, which I would guess e-file would be less time for him.... I'm verrrrrry hopeful the e-file returns in 3-4 months.
While I have not personally gotten an eform 4 back quick yet, my form 1s were 9/19 to 12/24, my buddy got two form 4s back last week and he filed shortly after me. So id say its more like 93ish days. Cant beat that with a stick compared to what paper forms are taking. I should know personally next month on 3 eform 4s from 11/12.
Cascade
Submitted electronically: 9/24/2013
Pending: Immediate
Approved: 01/03/2014
Submitted electronically: 9/24/2013
Pending: Immediate
Approved: 01/03/2014
My dealer just eFiled a Form 4 for my suppressor. Is there an electronic way to determine status or do you still have to call the BATF NFA unit??
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks,
Dave
If eform 4's are all in the same, then why would he get his ^^^ before me??? My stuff was all in 9/19. Anyone know?
Submitted from different states maybe. Different states have their files reviewed by different agents. Maybe your agent had more lined up in front of you.
Ahhh okay I was misunderstanding then. I thought all forms were reviewed by the same people regardless of state. That makes sense, as I am from Texas.
Item: Supressor, Thunder Beast 30P-1, 308
Ordered: 10/29/2013 Colonial Armory
Form 3: eFiled 12/5/2013, Approved 1/2/2014
Form 4: eFiled 1/4/14, confirmed receipt 1/6/2014, "should be 4 months"
Form 4 Approved:
Ordered: 10/29/2013 Colonial Armory
Form 3: eFiled 12/5/2013, Approved 1/2/2014
Form 4: eFiled 1/4/14, confirmed receipt 1/6/2014, "should be 4 months"
Form 4 Approved:
Well... disappointing news today. Even though my eform 4 was sent on 9/19 and check was cashed, my application didn't go into the system until 11/14 due to govt. shutdown. SSOO I have been waiting to hear back any day now and I still have at least 2 months to wait or so. I'm so impatient!
Someone Esubmitted a few post above sept24 and now has approval in Jan.
Who told you the delay was from the shutdown?
A guy that works at Silencer Shop told me that. I don't know why the check would have cashed and the form actually going into the system would have taken so long though. I was thinking the same thing though.
How did you efile with a check? I see you bought through SS, all my eforms through them have been a total for the cans plus the tax stamps that I paid to SS and they took care of it from there. On the paper forms they send in with the check I write to the ATF just like any other paper form.
Just submitted my first Form 1 through the eForm site. We'll see how long it takes...
So I did it all through SS. I said I efiled the check because I paid SS separately for it. So I suppose it's the same thing. Anyway, they sent me an email when the check cleared on Sept. 19th. I wasn't sure why my forms didn't go in at the same time since I did it all in the same day.
I also did this when SS first started doing eforms, so I'm not sure how much of it they may have refined or changed since, if at all.
You need to call Silencer Shop and ask this question directly.
Did you submit my form 4 via eform or did you mail it in?
I had bought two cans from them the first week of September and I asked them if they were doing eforms. They said yes they were. I said great and said that is how I want to proceed. I call back a couple weeks later to confirm that they eformed the two form 4s. They said yes they did. I call them back last month expecting to get my stamps back any day. Turns out they ignored my request and mailed them in. So instead of having my stamps in hand I have many more months to wait. Dave, the owner, told me they did not start eforms until the very end of September.
From what you are saying it sounds like they mailed the form in, which means you have 8 months left of waiting.
Last edited:
Well the ATF seemed to think it was an eform, but I guess I don't know if they can tell. I hope that is not the case. Besides, I never sent SS any paperwork like you have to for a normal submission. I guess I'll call and ask just to make sure.
Ok, you paid 200 to SS, and then they paid the Feds ?
Problem here is it gives that dealer SS way too much casual wiggle room
To do "what they seem fit" with the transaction in both directions...them/you and them/Feds.
Was this a face to face in store transaction?
Did you give them your trust via email? Like PDF file?
If you gave them paper copies of your trust packet, it may well
Have confused them.
Yes I paid SS for the NFA tax for 200. It cashed (as in the ATF cashed it) on Sept. 19th like I expected it to. No, it was over the phone. My trust was sent through PDF. Other than the trust there was no other paperwork.
Looks like you might get rejected for that
Disapproved Form 1
It seems that even the ATF doesn't know WTF is going on(surprise). My desktop computer is out of commission right now so I cant log on to check the AFT page and see if the multi tab is still available. I need to submit another form 1 as well. Sure wish the ATF would get the site updated where current browser versions would work.
If youre that anxious to really know how long the eforms are taking check out the NFA tracker site or this thread
My efiled form 1 was approved in 3 months - AR15.COM
Yeah, on eform 4's, my dealers inventory was all limited to single caliber. Even MGs that had just come in on form
3s with multi calibers were instantly 'converted' to one caliber.
The old 22,9,45 Uzi days are gone.
Certainly don't try it with a form1. The want 200 per caliber. Ha
I checked the NFA tracker, and it looks like Ann Felter hasn't done any e-forms yet? Most of the examiners are doing both mailed and eform submissions. Does anyone have insights about this?
That's disheartening. I listed both calibers in the description so hopefully that'll carry it through. Kind of bums me out though.
I don't believe they are allowing you to list multiple calibers anymore. If you read in the AR15.com link towards the end someone else got disapproved for putting multi and someone else said they are no longer accepting it. Still doesn't make since why they would even have it as an option when they wont approve a form with it on there.
I did the same thing thru SS on 12/5/13 except for i did it all online thru their site and got an email saying 'The required transfer paperwork has been submitted electronically to the ATF..."
Im submiting 3 efiles tomorrow. Will update.
TBAC 30BA (trust)
Paper work sent: 10/3/13
Tax payment sent: 10/3/13
Pending: 10/3/13
Approved: 1/16/14
Jeff at Gunstar Arms has been a great tbac dealer. I highly recommend him for the Colorado guys.
Paper work sent: 10/3/13
Tax payment sent: 10/3/13
Pending: 10/3/13
Approved: 1/16/14
Jeff at Gunstar Arms has been a great tbac dealer. I highly recommend him for the Colorado guys.
3 months. Freaking amazing.
I've got a can sent in using the regular route almost a full year ago that I'm still waiting on.
I've got a can sent in using the regular route almost a full year ago that I'm still waiting on.
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