I can accept that as a valid argument.
- Thread starter Alien61
- Start date
I can accept that as a valid argument.
Force Science has some pretty extensive and interesting research on split second decision making- once the brain makes the decision to take action it is very hard to reverse that decision. I assume he is pretty proficient in firearms handling, which means he went from seeing what he perceived as a threat to having a gun in the hand pretty fast, the decision had been made and to reverse that decision would be very difficult.
Add to that things happening very quickly, and you get some glimpse into things like shooting at car once it’s driving past you, or people being shot in the back. Force Science has some good videos on reaction times etc. that lend some clarity to situations like this.
I’m not saying anything he did was correct, but I do think there is some validity to the claim he thought he was in danger and reacted as quickly as he was able. That suv covered ground pretty quickly, and his brain told him to draw, side step, turn and shoot, all while the suv was accelerating, covering ground quickly. The rounds ended up directed at the back of the suv, but in truth we are talking about hundredths of seconds.
All this to say I don’t think his intention was shoot at a car that had passed him, he reacted as quickly as he was able to, it just happened that the vehicle was already gone.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think confronting a car load of folks in the parking lot was a wise choice overall. Unfortunately he will be held responsible, but hopefully some of the same grace that is offered to cops who shoot in fear for their life (even when they put themselves in the situation) will be offered to him.
Add to that things happening very quickly, and you get some glimpse into things like shooting at car once it’s driving past you, or people being shot in the back. Force Science has some good videos on reaction times etc. that lend some clarity to situations like this.
I’m not saying anything he did was correct, but I do think there is some validity to the claim he thought he was in danger and reacted as quickly as he was able. That suv covered ground pretty quickly, and his brain told him to draw, side step, turn and shoot, all while the suv was accelerating, covering ground quickly. The rounds ended up directed at the back of the suv, but in truth we are talking about hundredths of seconds.
All this to say I don’t think his intention was shoot at a car that had passed him, he reacted as quickly as he was able to, it just happened that the vehicle was already gone.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think confronting a car load of folks in the parking lot was a wise choice overall. Unfortunately he will be held responsible, but hopefully some of the same grace that is offered to cops who shoot in fear for their life (even when they put themselves in the situation) will be offered to him.
Fucking un marked cars should be banned
A bunch of gun stores have been robbed. That’s why the owner was there late at night
Cop cars Supposed to be a deterrent to crime but these turds want to be unmarked with black tint. In a charger no less. Just what a ghetto goblin would drive.
This goes for all taxpayer funded vehicles. All those parasites should have their department logo on the door. Maybe they’d spend less time sleeping or going to 12 snack stores during the work day
A bunch of gun stores have been robbed. That’s why the owner was there late at night
Cop cars Supposed to be a deterrent to crime but these turds want to be unmarked with black tint. In a charger no less. Just what a ghetto goblin would drive.
This goes for all taxpayer funded vehicles. All those parasites should have their department logo on the door. Maybe they’d spend less time sleeping or going to 12 snack stores during the work day
Lol in Baltimore no less.Come on Police robbing shitimpossible.
Home to the gun trade task force. Who robbed drug dealers and tax payers alike and sold the drugs to other tax payers.
I’m sure they were the only crooked cops in that chocolate city
So. He has a gun in his hand that makes him a threat ?
So people would be justified shooting or running over cops who have a gun in their hand ?
I’ve had tenants ordered out of their house at gun point because the cops were looking for a previous occupant. Would they be justified in shooting them. ?
Pointing a gun at some one gets you an assault charge here. Unless your the kings men
Double standards are horse shit.
Yall wonder why everyone is FTP now.
Justified, yes. Same as your door getting kicked in at 3am with no warning. Only difference is we don’t get to say we were scared for our lives.
Justified, yes. You’ll pay with your life either way unfortunately.
I agree with the unmarked cars as well. I can see an argument for legit undercover work so they don’t stick out like a sore thumb (an argument, not saying I agree either way) but Vics and police that aren’t easily identified as such shouldn’t be running traffic or other regular enforcement. By the time you are able to verbally identify yourself one of us is already dead.
I can't believe I'm typing this, but yeah, having a gun in your hand makes you a threat, and Santa Claus isn't real. If you display a firearm, your are openly making a threat. They only do one thing, and it isn't sandwich construction..
But when cops point guns at unarmed people minding their own business it’s not a threat right
Anything can be construed as a threat to law enforcement. Ask Daniel Shaver.
Yeah apparently Shaver’s murderer was scared for his safety, and said Shaver was “moving to get a better shooting position on him”. Acquitted and retired. Probably claimed PTSD.
His PDs thoughts on the matter:
His engravings on the dust cover were against department policy. Murdering civilians is completely within policy however.
You are absolutely right, guilty
You'll be more surprised to know from which country I came from originally, but proud VA resident now. Post pre-approved with Frank in-advance. Grammar and syntax are not Last edited:
It was silly to think that everyone is having Washington Post subscription... Simply most detailed coverage by my unprofessional opinion... . But looks like you've spotted other articles already and video. As I said - I have no judgements, as I have no legal bar in US or LE experience. But he was just the guy you instantly admire and believe... direct, simple and honest... sitting in his store with his bulldog, Andy never ever created an impression of overreacting personality or explosive character. Scary huge, but calm and nice to anyone. I believe he had a tough choices those night, we all knew what happened to Atlantic Guns (our next go-to place for anything LGS relater here) and situation gave him all wrong signals to react like you see on the video. But no matter what - he is held away from his family, no bail and treated like a danger to the community... which he is clearly not, so to prove otherwise will be costly and lengthly exercise for him.... And Im just trying to help him a bit and offering you to consider the same. Thank you.
article
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Worried about a series of brazen late-night break-ins at gun stores in the area, Andy Raymond began spending nights inside his business — Engage Armament — in Rockville, Md.
“He did not want his merchandise getting out on the streets and being used in crimes,” his attorney, David Martella, said.
Raymond was jailed on felony assault charges after authorities say he fired two rounds at a moving, unmarked police SUV in his dark parking lot at 12:30 a.m. Tuesday. Martella said his client believed the car to be occupied by potential thieves, rendering his actions regrettable but hardly unreasonable.
“This is not happening at a soccerplex on a Saturday afternoon,” Martella said in court Thursday, while asking a judge to release Raymond on bail. “This is midnight, behind a gun store, [after] a half-dozen gun stores have been violently attacked.”
Montgomery County District Court Judge Patrick Mays denied the request for Raymond to be released before trial, saying that whomever Raymond thought was inside the SUV, he shot as the threat was moving away.
“Those rounds were fired into the back of the vehicle,” Mays said.
Montgomery Assistant State’s Attorney Peter Larson had asked Mays to keep Raymond in jail without bond as a matter of public safety.
Larson said the officer had to turn around in the lot because he came upon a fence. When the officer did so, he saw a man grabbing at his waistband, prompting the officer to try to flee.
“The decision to shoot occurred after the vehicle passed,” Larson said. “It is difficult for the state to comprehend why, after the vehicle was fleeing and leaving the scene, that deadly force was utilized.”
Raymond’s arrest came the same week officials with the Baltimore office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) released a public bulletin about five break-ins or attempted break-ins involving gun stores in Montgomery and nearby Anne Arundel counties over a recent nine-day stretch. The incidents occurred between midnight and 3:55 a.m. In four cases, suspects used a car or truck to ram into the store, getting inside three of them.
In one of those heists — at Atlantic Guns, two miles from Raymond’s Engage Armament — thieves made off with five rifles and seven pistols, according to ATF. At another, police in Anne Arundel County caught two juveniles — ages 14 and 16, from Montgomery County — removing guns from display cases at Scott’s Gunsmithing, in Glen Burnie at 3:45 a.m. The pair was arrested. They had gotten in, according to ATF, after a Ford E350 Van plunged through the front door.
Ramming into gun shops isn’t new for thieves. In 2019, the owner of the United Gun Shop, in Rockville, erected a cinder block wall for protection after it was hit.
According to police allegations filed in court, Montgomery County officers have been conducting proactive patrols outside gun shops because of the recent break-ins. That’s what an officer was doing outside Engage Armament at 12:30 a.m. Tuesday in an unmarked maroon SUV, police said.
At that time, though, Raymond had left his store to retrieve something from his car. He noticed the SUV drive slowly through his lot and come to a pause, Martella said.
Surveillance video from outside Raymond’s store recorded the SUV driving away and Raymond running after it. Seconds later, after the SUV turned around, it accelerated toward Raymond, who appears to jump away to avoid being struck, according to Martella. The video captured Raymond firing two shots at the SUV, seemingly after it had passed him.
Police allege that the officer in the SUV had seen a person “moving towards his vehicle [while] reaching towards his midsection.” The officer then drove away from the man to avoid possibly being shot, according to police.
Martella said that before pulling out his gun, Raymond put up his hands to try to get the now advancing vehicle to stop. The officer did not activate his flashing lights and instead accelerated, according to Martella, nearly striking Raymond, who jumped out of the way.
Though it is a matter of seconds, the surveillance video showed two muzzle flashes from Raymond’s gun after the SUV passed him.
Police later found two bullet holes: one in the right rear quarter panel and one in the tailgate below the right rear taillight, according to court records.
After firing his gun, Raymond continued running after the police car onto East Gude Drive. It was then, according to court records, that the officer activated his lights.
“When the suspect saw the red-and-blue flashing police lights, his demeanor appeared to change,” police wrote in court papers.
Raymond walked back to a sidewalk, took off his coat, and was taken into custody without incident.
“While being handcuffed, the suspect said that he was sorry for shooting” at the officer, police wrote.
In an exchange between Martella and Mays, the judge questioned why his client ran after the car in the first place.
“Knowing everything that this individual knew about the possible threats that were out there, why he would choose to engage them?” Mays asked, adding, “Why didn’t he go inside and call 911?”
Martella said his client ran after the car to get the license plate number. He said that the video appeared to show the SUV driving directly at Raymond, nearly running him over and killing him. Given that perceived threat, Martella said, Raymond was scared that the occupants were violent gun thieves capable of getting out and shooting at him.
Mays, the judge, said he was concerned that Raymond would choose to engage with the SUV, “knowing everything that [he] knew about the possible threats that were out there.”
“It’s just hard to wrap one’s head around the actions that are depicted in that video,” Mays added.
Raymond has owned Engage Armament for 13 years, according to court records.
“He is a responsible owner of a gun store who does things the right way,” Martella said.
“He is scared of going to prison, but he is more concerned of assuring everyone he thought he was dealing with intensely dangerous people who were coming at him,” Martella said.
I think our hobby here is quite silent... loud, but speechless, no? I'm just buying stuff here and cherish some personal ties and monitor some competitions schedule...
This. And I have had guns drawn on me on 3 occasions when doing no wrong, actually 4, one time on my own property. It’s a hard line for cops to figure out when split seconds could cost them their lives but I think some need to learn how to assess better. Not everyone is the enemy. And most of my interactions have been very professional but there has been a few times that were very problematic.
Andrew Raymond left his wife and kids to go play cops and robbers. Paranoid he shot at a fucking cop of all people. They met with him a week prior and told him about the recent break ins and that they would be running extra security and not to take matters into his own hands.
Your fat friend does not care about his family drive to the next town over to protect property with a gun that’s the job of police and they have insurance for that. If it’s so unsafe then why do you own a gun store here and put us all at risk while you don’t live in the same city.
You need to serve at least 3 years
Your fat friend does not care about his family drive to the next town over to protect property with a gun that’s the job of police and they have insurance for that. If it’s so unsafe then why do you own a gun store here and put us all at risk while you don’t live in the same city.
You need to serve at least 3 years
I would wager LARGE that you are one of the undercover cops in question the story pertains to.
Would you shoot at, or arrest with high levels of violent restraint, one of these fine people ?
This is a tough situation. My gut reaction is to jump to the defense of Andy however having seen the video several times, I, more and more, think he was in the wrong here.
The difference is if he was a cop nothing would happen. Like acorn cop.
Of that, you are correct. Its crazy, the Supreme Court has ruled.that cops have no duty to protect but they are also afforded all kinds of leeway.....this from a guy (me) who was cop for 15 years.
It's pretty crazy stuff. There is cop from here doing 2 years for shooting a guy he was just finishing patting down who took off running. He had just found meth in the guys 5th pocket and the guy trys to run. Cop blasts him. They were in Brandon CO. Population like 7-10 people. No place to run probably a hundred of yards from the nearest house.
Here is the kicker beyond of course two years for murdering some meth head. The other cop was ruled as justified in shooting because she didn't start shooting until the other cop did.
She had reasonable fear for her life because another cop started shooting first. Ruled in court. Presidence set. 
So if she had actually hit the guy instead of mag dumping towards the sparcely housed area down the road. Would anyone have even done 2 years?
Here is the kicker beyond of course two years for murdering some meth head. The other cop was ruled as justified in shooting because she didn't start shooting until the other cop did.
She had reasonable fear for her life because another cop started shooting first. Ruled in court. Presidence set. So if she had actually hit the guy instead of mag dumping towards the sparcely housed area down the road. Would anyone have even done 2 years?
Maryland what a great state. Wait cops are like tbis everywhere
An important lesson here is the affect of glass on bullets. In my experience, when shooting into a car through the windshield, the bullets get deflected down, and the opposite when shooting out. And a 9mm can reliably enough hit a torso size target if it's at the front bumper but when it gets further away it's a crapshoot.
I posted this same information on a statist forum and when they tried to grill me on my qualifications and why I would need to shoot into a car I blew them off and they deleted the post.
I posted this same information on a statist forum and when they tried to grill me on my qualifications and why I would need to shoot into a car I blew them off and they deleted the post.
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So 14 years each? Fucking pathetic. A lot nicer than I would be. What about the people they put away for false crimes? What do they get? Shit getting scary out there. I mean I know there is still a lot of good people out there and it’s not fair to get on to an entire group for the actions of a few but damn, shit getting kind of crazy.
Has to do with what the bullet hits first
Into a windshield , the bottom of the bullet hits first makes its trajectory do downward
This entire group wears the same uniform, wears the same badge, carries the same gun, carries the same radios and enforces laws in an interconnected system of gov’t. These aren’t individuals in the sense you are referring. There is a difference. A big one. These men work as a coordinated unit and should be viewed as such.
I was told the bullet takes the path of least resistance, in this case a perpendicular path to the face of the glass. So I think that agrees with your information.
