1) super glad OP is ok!!
2) I run exact setup as 6brahooter; Dillon 650 and cfe pistol. Hard to double double charge with this powder.
3) agree it is most likely double charge, for what my opinion may be worth?
- Thread starter alchrisr
- Start date
1) super glad OP is ok!!
2) I run exact setup as 6brahooter; Dillon 650 and cfe pistol. Hard to double double charge with this powder.
3) agree it is most likely double charge, for what my opinion may be worth?
[I]
seanh[/I] g out of battery is a known issue, especially with reloads.
As you can see with the factory Glock Barrel it doesn't take much at all
I added night vision to your pic and added my old pic from years ago.
seanh[/I] g out of battery is a known issue, especially with reloads.
As you can see with the factory Glock Barrel it doesn't take much at all
I added night vision to your pic and added my old pic from years ago.
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Honestly couldn't say if it sounded different, but it felt different! I put a light crimp with the Lee factory crimp die. Not tight but tight enough to keep the bullet in place.
As others said, that’s a double charge. You used Titegroup. End of story, the out of battery and unsupported case comments have nothing to do with it.
This is exactly the reason I recommend everyone use a different powder than Titegroup. Clays for example gives you almost exactly thesame performance but will overflow the case on a double charge.
The very small volume of those Titegroup charges, resulting in the difficulty (or lack of) visual inspection is the fault here. Now you know the cause, what are you going to do about it? Hopefully the smart thing and ditch the Titegroup or get a powder check die.
This is exactly the reason I recommend everyone use a different powder than Titegroup. Clays for example gives you almost exactly thesame performance but will overflow the case on a double charge.
The very small volume of those Titegroup charges, resulting in the difficulty (or lack of) visual inspection is the fault here. Now you know the cause, what are you going to do about it? Hopefully the smart thing and ditch the Titegroup or get a powder check die.
G20 barrels haven't looked like that since 2nd Gen. OP doesn't have a 10mm. Glock 9mm barrels are supported.
I shot some (two mags) 9mm Major ammo out of a Gen 5 G17 barrel last weekend. The ammo was easily 40K PSI (124gr JHP over 7.2gr of Longshot). The brass looked like the factory ammo brass fired from the same barrel at the same time.
If you been around pistol reloading forum long enough, you’ll notice most blow ups are from Titegroup.
There is no way of telling what kind of damage this incident has caused without X-ray, Magna flux or other expensive non destructive inspection methods. Your gun is unsafe and is now only good for show & tell stories. Don’t let the lure of saving a couple hundred dollars cost you serious injury. Chalk it up to experience and move on.
No.
Plated bullets often don't give good accuracy in Glock barrels, because they sometimes tend to strip in the rifling when pressures are high, but that's an accuracy issue, not pressure. It has nothing to do with causing high pressure.
I sure wish people wouldn't guess about this stuff if they don't actually know. It doesn't help the OP, and doesn't make the person suggesting it look good in the eyes of anyone who knows what they're talking about.
I agree, having had a similar experience with a very expensive rifle. No physical injures but the psychological damage took a greater toll than the financial. confidence will return keep doing your due diligence
Not worth taking a chance on the remaining loads. You've only got so many trigger fingers. Ammo is cheap compared to replacement guns, prosthetics, pain and suffering.
I have decided that changing over to the RCBS lockout die is a must do for progressive pistol reloading, problem is there seem to be none available anywhere. The powder cop die is good but it is too easy to be distracted when loading mass quantities and manually adding brass and bullets. I really need to add a case feeder but I am just too cheap!
It was suggested above that the slide be magnafluxed. That seems like a good idea but I am not sure if it is really necessary. The blast was focused down blowing out the mag and damaging the polymer frame. The extractor was the only visible issue with the slide. The weakest link took the blast similar to a burst panel on a blower manifold. I have emailed Glock USA about buying a new frame (they don't sell them) and was told to contact the warranty and service department. I will see what they have to say today. This ain't warranty, it is dumbass! I will ask them if They can check the slide. I will report back what they tell me.
You are very correct that ammo is not worth damaging your body over. I am riding my last Harescamble of the season tomorrow and will get back to checking the weight of all the loaded ammo Sunday. I have devised an assembly line type process and my wife is going to help me get this done. Anything over or under what looks to be max weight (about 213gr+/-) will be culled and pulled down I have a Sub 2000 that handles hot loads pretty well, but nah, ain't gonna happen!
CR
edit: talked to GLock service, I am sending the complete pistol with the mag that was in it at the time to them. I have to remove the Ghost trigger kit before I do. A frame replacement is $100 plus tax and shipping and the frame will have a new serial number.
It was suggested above that the slide be magnafluxed. That seems like a good idea but I am not sure if it is really necessary. The blast was focused down blowing out the mag and damaging the polymer frame. The extractor was the only visible issue with the slide. The weakest link took the blast similar to a burst panel on a blower manifold. I have emailed Glock USA about buying a new frame (they don't sell them) and was told to contact the warranty and service department. I will see what they have to say today. This ain't warranty, it is dumbass! I will ask them if They can check the slide. I will report back what they tell me.
You are very correct that ammo is not worth damaging your body over. I am riding my last Harescamble of the season tomorrow and will get back to checking the weight of all the loaded ammo Sunday. I have devised an assembly line type process and my wife is going to help me get this done. Anything over or under what looks to be max weight (about 213gr+/-) will be culled and pulled down I have a Sub 2000 that handles hot loads pretty well, but nah, ain't gonna happen!
CR
edit: talked to GLock service, I am sending the complete pistol with the mag that was in it at the time to them. I have to remove the Ghost trigger kit before I do. A frame replacement is $100 plus tax and shipping and the frame will have a new serial number.
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Don’t waste your time checking loaded cartridge weight unless you used a single headstamp brass with pretty tight (for 9mm) tolerances. Otherwise, mixed brass weight varies more than double your powder charge, meaning you can still miss a double charge in a light case, and have plenty of false positives with heavy cases.
if you don’t believe it just weigh a bunch of your empty brass - it’s not uncommon to see 7+gr variance.
The only safe answer is to either trash it or break it all down to save the components. Going forward the smart thing is to stop using Titegroup.
if you don’t believe it just weigh a bunch of your empty brass - it’s not uncommon to see 7+gr variance.
The only safe answer is to either trash it or break it all down to save the components. Going forward the smart thing is to stop using Titegroup.
All of the lockouts and powder alarms are bandaids and subject to failure or malfunction. You need to visually verify every single cartridge. You can do it by leaning forward and looking into the cartridge or by mounting a camera over the press. If you choose the later there are endoscopes on Amazon that are pretty cheap that you can hook up to an old tablet.
Nonsense, the smart thing to do is to refine your reloading process so that errors of any kind are eliminated in the first place. Titegroup may be more sensitive when subject to loading errors but it is not the cause of the errors. It is like saying "guns kill people".
I've loaded many many thousands of 9 on a LnL with the RCBS lockout. The lockout isn't magic, if the rod sticks a bit it won't catch anything. Also, it's not as sensitive as many think. Like it wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a min an overmax charge of TG in 9. Double, just maybe with that powder.
I'd recommend you test the hell out of the lockout die before blindly trusting it. Like make 100% sure it locks up on no or double charges, like check that the rod moves freely every time you refill the primer tube. Go ahead and destroy some cases in this testing if you have to.
Mine's getting old and cranky, but I've 100% caught things with visual inspection recently that the lockout happily let through.
There's no replacement for an LED lightset and looking down in every case. In fact, I've been toying with getting a cheap amazon borescope camera and attaching it to the press to make this even easier.
I have no fear loading other calibers on my LnL, but 9mm I'm super paranoid about. 1. because I use stuff like TG and N320 loading minor loads where there's little powder. 2. because my press sucks at 9mm (casefeeder, indexing, etc) and I get waaaay more stoppages on 9, and stoppages are where you have way more information to process to be safe.
I'd recommend you test the hell out of the lockout die before blindly trusting it. Like make 100% sure it locks up on no or double charges, like check that the rod moves freely every time you refill the primer tube. Go ahead and destroy some cases in this testing if you have to.
Mine's getting old and cranky, but I've 100% caught things with visual inspection recently that the lockout happily let through.
There's no replacement for an LED lightset and looking down in every case. In fact, I've been toying with getting a cheap amazon borescope camera and attaching it to the press to make this even easier.
I have no fear loading other calibers on my LnL, but 9mm I'm super paranoid about. 1. because I use stuff like TG and N320 loading minor loads where there's little powder. 2. because my press sucks at 9mm (casefeeder, indexing, etc) and I get waaaay more stoppages on 9, and stoppages are where you have way more information to process to be safe.
7 grains variance in 9mm cases might include a couple EXTREME outliers.
Maybe with a couple different headstamps.
Separate the headstamps then.
7 grs variance in 308 cases is bad.
You can pull them all down I guess.
Maybe with a couple different headstamps.
Separate the headstamps then.
7 grs variance in 308 cases is bad.
You can pull them all down I guess.
Got any specific recommendations for cheap scopes?
The camera I use isn't available any longer. It is a cheap Chinese endoscope that I picked from 50 different options. The shorter the cable the better since I have it wrapped around the case feeder on a 650.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/DEPSTECH-Ult...&keywords=endoscope+3'&qid=1607100261&sr=8-19
The speculation of a unsupported chamber is nonsense.
No Glock has every sustain that much damage without an overcharge.
Glocks's are proof tested at 130% of SAMMI maximum pressure.
A unmodified Glock cannot fire out of battery. Prove it to yourself. Take your Glock and pull back the slide and then slowly allow it to go forward incrementally, while continuously pulling and releasing the trigger. You will note that the firing pin will not drop until the barrel hood is within a few thousandths of an inch of being fully locked up with the slide and at that instant the slide will jump forward to complete the lockup.
Please don't post that video of the yahoo showing a Glock firing out of battery by simply moving the slack out of the slide.
Glock's are in the holsters of more LE, civilians and military's than any other pistol around the world. Do you think this would be the case if they fired out of battery and exploded because of a unsupported chamber?
The Glock K'Boom is a myth.
No Glock has every sustain that much damage without an overcharge.
Glocks's are proof tested at 130% of SAMMI maximum pressure.
A unmodified Glock cannot fire out of battery. Prove it to yourself. Take your Glock and pull back the slide and then slowly allow it to go forward incrementally, while continuously pulling and releasing the trigger. You will note that the firing pin will not drop until the barrel hood is within a few thousandths of an inch of being fully locked up with the slide and at that instant the slide will jump forward to complete the lockup.
Please don't post that video of the yahoo showing a Glock firing out of battery by simply moving the slack out of the slide.
Glock's are in the holsters of more LE, civilians and military's than any other pistol around the world. Do you think this would be the case if they fired out of battery and exploded because of a unsupported chamber?
The Glock K'Boom is a myth.
In the previous century I had a similar case failure with the last cartridge I. The magazine in my Colt 1911A1 in 38 super.
The gun survived and so did I!
I am left handed and the right plastic grip panel cracked in two.
The magazine follower was damaged.
At the time 38 super brass was hard to find.
I sent some of my reloaded WW cased Ammo to Winchester.
Their comment was the brass was wore out-reloaded too many times.
The gun survived and so did I!
I am left handed and the right plastic grip panel cracked in two.
The magazine follower was damaged.
At the time 38 super brass was hard to find.
I sent some of my reloaded WW cased Ammo to Winchester.
Their comment was the brass was wore out-reloaded too many times.
No.
The problem with Titegroup isn't that it's sensitive. It's that it's very dense, and small charges are hard to verify by eye in the case. It's easy to get into a situation where even a double charge is hard to see. That plays directly into refining your loading process as you're saying, if you take the time to think about it instead of defending a stupid powder choice.
Using a bulkier powder that accomplishes the same thing (as I said Clays is almost an exact substitute but way bulkier) IS refining your load process to eliminate/reduce errors. That's the entire point.
Weighing loaded rounds to catch double charge is a TERRIBLE advice. The difference between your intended charge and a double charge is only 3 grains. I just weighed a handful of mixed empty 9mm brass and the weight variation was as much as +/- 10 grains. Now add in another +/- 3 grains from your mass-produced bullets.
This.
There seem to be a lot of people giving really bad advice here. What's that saying - "Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it" or something like that?
RCBS lockout die is one of the best investments I've ever made. I consider it an absolute must have if you do handgun cartridges on a progressive!
I have bought hundreds of guns to test for overload work ups.
But I have only bought 3 glocks; 9mm, 40sw, and 10mm.
But I have a lot of 9mm pistols.
Glock, like other 9x19mm pistol manufacturers seem to have feed ramps that intrude no more than 0.180".
9mm brass has 0.160" thick webs, making for 0.030" of thin unsupported case wall. This is very good.
25acp, 32acp, 380, 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp barrels are often not as good as 9mm for support.
The 25acp and 10mm case heads are weak, with primer pockets too close to the extractor groove.
20 years ago when I started reloading, with 9mm I have worked up to destruction with many combinations of 90 gr ,115 gr, 124 gr, and 147 gr bullets. I used 3N37, AA#5. Bullseye, Unique, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, 2400, HS-6, 800X, AA#9, H110, and LIL GUN.
The case support in 9mm is so good and the case volume is so small, that the only powders that could damage the brass in overload work ups were; 3N37, AA#5, and HS-6.
But I have only bought 3 glocks; 9mm, 40sw, and 10mm.
But I have a lot of 9mm pistols.
Glock, like other 9x19mm pistol manufacturers seem to have feed ramps that intrude no more than 0.180".
9mm brass has 0.160" thick webs, making for 0.030" of thin unsupported case wall. This is very good.
25acp, 32acp, 380, 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp barrels are often not as good as 9mm for support.
The 25acp and 10mm case heads are weak, with primer pockets too close to the extractor groove.
20 years ago when I started reloading, with 9mm I have worked up to destruction with many combinations of 90 gr ,115 gr, 124 gr, and 147 gr bullets. I used 3N37, AA#5. Bullseye, Unique, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, 2400, HS-6, 800X, AA#9, H110, and LIL GUN.
The case support in 9mm is so good and the case volume is so small, that the only powders that could damage the brass in overload work ups were; 3N37, AA#5, and HS-6.
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Again, this is just nonsense. The difference between 3.4gr of TG and 6.8gr of TG is...well...the case is twice as full. It isn't hard to see either, the case fill for 3.4gr is low in the case and the case fill for 6.8gr is over 80%.
Here are some pictures, depth in the picture is somewhat hard to capture but the double charge is very noticeable in person. I took a picture on the shell plate too, station 3 is the double charge. See how little empty space is left? This is not hard to verify by sight, it is plain as day.
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It is if you’re focused and looking for it. It’s easy to to miss if you’re not paying attention.
Exactly my thoughts.
I don’t load pistol but if I did I would choose something that would spill powder out making it noticeable if there were a double charge.
Those people will get squibs and over/under charges too. Frankly a lot has to go wrong to get a double charge. Dillon did a good job with the fail safe rod on their throwers. Some of the other manufacturers not so much.
Pistol cartridge reloading is no place for the unobservant. You can blow up a pistol without a double charge even with higher volume slow powder.
How asinine and stubborn to you have to be to refuse to admit that double charge you showed can be missed? And plenty of people use charges even smaller than that. I've used as little as 2.3gr in a 9mm case.
In contrast, 3.4gr of Clays fills the case about the same as the double charge you showed, and a double charge of that amount of Clays overflows the case.
What's the point in being so stubborn about wanting to use TiteGroup? Why are you so attached to a certain powder? Is it just another case of this being what you chose, so it must be right and anything else is a personal assault on your ego?
As plenty of others have already said, most of the time when someone has an accident like this, Titegroup was involved. There's a reason for that.
It doesn't matter what powder you use when your reloading process allows a obvious double charge to happen. OP could have had a squib and wouldn't have known about that either until it was too late. I don't care what powder you use, the point is your process needs to include visually verifying the powder charge before seating every bullet. Whether it is with a camera like I discussed earlier, a mirror mounted to the press, or a flashlight over individual loading blocks, take your pick. This is a well known subject discussed by guys like Brian Enos going back 20+ years.
Feel free to keep advocating a different powder instead of correcting the failed process. Your bad advice doesn't jeopardize my safety, only those ignorant enough to accept it.
Well yeah, that’s my entire point. Allowing the powder charge do be VISIBLE without needing a special camera or craning your neck over the case each round goes a long way towards that. Pretty novel concept, isn’t it? Powder choice IS part of the process, and it does make a difference.
And yeah, there have been a lot of knowledgeable reloaders on Brian Enos recommending to avoid Titegroup for a long time; too bad stubborn people like you refuse to learn and keep leading the new reloaders wrong.
Of course people need to pay attention when reloading, that’s baby step #1; move past that and try to see some logic. Quit being offended that your choice in powder is not being supported.
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I have components to load a few thousand 9mm rounds, and thought Titegroup was the best choice until reading through these comments. For 124 and 147gr plinking ammo, what would be the recommended powder(s)?
Thanks,
Sam
Thanks,
Sam
Years ago my dad bought a Taurus 380. The 11th factory loaded round blew the slide off the top of it in 2 pieces. I have never liked Taurus since.It could have been worse.
Lee County man injured after gun explodes in freak accident at range
LEE COUNTY, Ala. (WRBL) – A Lee County family asks for your prayers after a family owned gun exploded in their loved ones’ face at a local firing range on Friday. Megan…www.wrbl.com
@alchrisr I am glad you are ok!
What are you loading it on?
I only have single stage presses, but was planning on loading on a buddy's progressive.
If you already have it I'd load it. There's tons of other options though if you're going to buy more powder. I like HS6 if you're trying to make velocity. The TG is good for quiet subs but I prefer E3 or N320. I stopped looking TG because it is filthy.
A friend of mine sold me his Taurus 357 mag revolver. The inside of the chambers did not completely clean up when they reamed them. The result is that cases will stick with 357 mag loads... but not with 38sp loading.
Now I have lots of Colt 38 specials that I shoot with 357 mag loads and one Taurus 357 mag that I shoot with 38 sp loads.
That is my only Taurus and will probably not be joined by any others.
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With my 9mm set up on my Dillon xl750 with case feeder and Mr bullet feeder and UFO light all I have to do is pull the handle. So standing with my press mounted at 42" high I'm looking right down into every case as the shell plate indexes. And at a pace of 700 to 800 rounds per hour I see every powder charge and haven't had a over charge in the last 20 thousand rounds. But it could happen tomorrow all I can do is use a powder that fills the case over 1/2 full and do my best I know I'm on my toes because I do catch a few 380 and Makarov cases before a bullet is dropped but S_it can Happen.
I've had a 9mm Glock do this. Hurts like hell. This was some years ago.
Stacking was the consensus then.
1. Glock barrel not supporting case as well as other semi-autos. Part of what makes Glocks feed so reliably.
2. Week brass with unknown number of reloading.
3. Titegroup probably wasn't double charged, but could have thrown heavier.
4. Pistol could fire without complete battery lockup.
Glocks are great but taking a chance with stock barrel and reloads depending on QC. Just my experience.
Stacking was the consensus then.
1. Glock barrel not supporting case as well as other semi-autos. Part of what makes Glocks feed so reliably.
2. Week brass with unknown number of reloading.
3. Titegroup probably wasn't double charged, but could have thrown heavier.
4. Pistol could fire without complete battery lockup.
Glocks are great but taking a chance with stock barrel and reloads depending on QC. Just my experience.
Glock 9mm chambers support the case as well as other brands.
918V has been make succinct posts since the earth cooled.
My 1993 Glock 19 9mm has a case support of 0.190" with a case web of 0.160", leaving only 0.030" of thin unsupported case wall to form a case bulge. This or better is representative of most other 9mm brands of pistols .
My 1992 Glock 22 40sw had a case support of 0.235" case support with a case web 0.180" thick, leaving 0.055". In addiction the diameter of the chamber was in excess of the sloppy SAAMI max.
After TIG welding the chamber and re cutting, the 40sw was capable of atomic loads.
My 1993 Glock 19 9mm has a case support of 0.190" with a case web of 0.160", leaving only 0.030" of thin unsupported case wall to form a case bulge. This or better is representative of most other 9mm brands of pistols .
My 1992 Glock 22 40sw had a case support of 0.235" case support with a case web 0.180" thick, leaving 0.055". In addiction the diameter of the chamber was in excess of the sloppy SAAMI max.
After TIG welding the chamber and re cutting, the 40sw was capable of atomic loads.
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This is a mid-2000’s Glock barrel. It has full case support all the way to the beginning of the fire wall:
There is a lot of thick brass in that area.
Update on the issue: The gun has been sent to Glock for repair (12/14/20). I called them to confirm that it had arrived and what lead to them getting it. The tech I spoke with was very helpful and told me that I would probably not get the gun back before Christmas (no worries). During our conversation, he also volunteered that they see 2 - 3 "over pressure" damaged pistols every week! He further commented that even factory CCI cheap ammo can result in this damage. WTF? The armorer will completely go through the pistol and inspect, repair, replace. and test fire the gun before it comes back. I also had the opportunity to speak with a fellow hide member, who I knew was retired and worked for S&W, at our rimfire match last weekend. He saw the pictures and says "out of battery fire". He went on to explain this by asking, "how do we break down the striker fired pistol?" Part of the answer to that question is pulling the trigger. The gun is not in battery at that point and yet the trigger can be pulled, hmmmmm. If he happens to see this post and I have something incorrect I hope he will let us know, but this was the gist of the conversation.
I didn't intend to start a pissing contest over reloading preferences. The fact of the matter is that if one powder was the "best" at any all things gun then we wouldn't have so many choices. Same goes for reloading equipment (or cars or women!
). I think I posted earlier, but I load on the LnL. I don't have any automation and insert every piece of brass and bullet by hand. I have the press mounted on the bench atop an Inline Fabrication mount with an articulated light aimed where I can see whats going on. At 6'3" it is the perfect setup for me as I can see every case as I put the bullet in. Is it possible I missed one? Absolutely. All the info gathered seems to point to many factors and I am leaning towards weak brass and a possible out of battery situation. In fact if you examine the brass under magnification it appears that the cartridge was not fully chambered, unless it blew back enough to cause swelling forward of what is actually supported.
The bottom line is, will I be more vigilant in the future while reloading? You better believe it.
I didn't intend to start a pissing contest over reloading preferences. The fact of the matter is that if one powder was the "best" at any all things gun then we wouldn't have so many choices. Same goes for reloading equipment (or cars or women!
). I think I posted earlier, but I load on the LnL. I don't have any automation and insert every piece of brass and bullet by hand. I have the press mounted on the bench atop an Inline Fabrication mount with an articulated light aimed where I can see whats going on. At 6'3" it is the perfect setup for me as I can see every case as I put the bullet in. Is it possible I missed one? Absolutely. All the info gathered seems to point to many factors and I am leaning towards weak brass and a possible out of battery situation. In fact if you examine the brass under magnification it appears that the cartridge was not fully chambered, unless it blew back enough to cause swelling forward of what is actually supported.The bottom line is, will I be more vigilant in the future while reloading? You better believe it.
