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So the only way to know which is closer to reality is to shoot long range using Litz bc curves and measure results on paper, or a convenient sand bank. The LR might have been wrong since the beginning, but without another device to compare, no way to know.
2933 was money on AB (Kestrel). It was on 100-990 without having to tweak the MV and BC.
Surely someone has run a LR against Litz's equipment
LR's 2928fps would have gotten you w/in ~1" of the Garmin's 2933fps @ 1000yds, no?
Yup I was just saying the Garmin was good to go. Because everyone else when comparing always say is the Garmin correct? In my case yes.
This thing is so handy. I’m just going to take it with me to every range trip now. And I’m really looking forward to rifle load development while shooting for groups and velocity at the same time.
Also, Underwood 68gr +P 9mm is extra spicy out of an SP5. Sadly I don’t think the bullet design can take advantage of the extra velocity.
Also, Underwood 68gr +P 9mm is extra spicy out of an SP5. Sadly I don’t think the bullet design can take advantage of the extra velocity.
That is a major benefit to me. Getting velocity and groups for load development at the same time. That cuts down component usage for load development by half. No more Magnetospeed to get velocity only.
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www.cole-tac.com That’s the plan today, microphone on the LR instead of recoil trigger, also >1600 yds where impact vs indicated MV should be easier to correlate if there’s a significant difference between the units.
Litz’s did and reported it in his recent book. He showed in a test that two LRs tested were very close to his Oehler 35P, which they had lower error than the Magnetospeed.
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I don't think there's much point in testing LR vs Xero unless they are just done at the same time and 30 shots fired and each one's recording of the same 30 shots are compared. There's too much variation in the ammo to tell anything with small sample strings.
I appreciate anyone testing and bringing info, I really do. That's my favorite thing to read on here. It would be cool to see the same 30 shots recorded by both and then look at what the ES and SD is. I bet it's going to be extremely close.
When I get a chance I will test the placement of the xero and how that effects the fps reading, while I shoot and do it with 20 shot strings for each distance from the muzzle and see but someone here will probably beat me to it.
I appreciate anyone testing and bringing info, I really do. That's my favorite thing to read on here. It would be cool to see the same 30 shots recorded by both and then look at what the ES and SD is. I bet it's going to be extremely close.
When I get a chance I will test the placement of the xero and how that effects the fps reading, while I shoot and do it with 20 shot strings for each distance from the muzzle and see but someone here will probably beat me to it.
Spent the morning with the new Garmin at the range - BEST piece of kit that I have purchased in many years. Garmin hit a home run with this hardware and the App. It never missed a shot - suppressed or not - mounted to the gun on placed on the ground next to the shooter. Fantastic.
There is a youtube video of the Xero moving in the x and y axis, with a page linked with the data to boot.
Video:
Data:
https://research.baso.dk/python/garmin_xero_c1_placement.html
And it's great and I appreciate the effort and data, but much like you raised on the LR to Xero comparisons, it's of limited value.
Ideally, we'd have testing of multiple Xeros on the exact same shot, with Xeros positioned at extremes - right by the muzzle, as well as very far away from the muzzle, as well as right in the Garmin defined sweet spot. Having that for strings of shots, would show if there is meaningful difference on placements with the Xero, etc.
Not to mention, the results would benefit from X, Y, and Z axis placements. We may find out, listen to garmin dummy and we should be 5-15 from the muzzle in both x and y. That would mean our botique and nodal slide mounts need a little work? Or we may find there is no difference as long as it's a few from the muzzle in x axis?
Anyway, I am interested for sure. I am not going to buy a second or a third xero to do so right now, but would participate in such testing if I had a group with them where we could test them.
The link says they do a Welch’s T-Test for a bazillion pairwise comparisons…. They should leave statistics to those with statistic degrees. And to boot it’s a n = 5 per group lol. You can’t do that many pairwise comparisons with n = 5. N probably needs to be 50+ (I don’t feel like opening my stats software right now).
Thanks. TLDR: one meter right or left of rifle and in and it will pick up thr shot and record it. Don't know about how far behind the rifle it will accurately pick up the shots yet, but probably a good idea to stay close to the window Garmin tells us to.
Probably best!
Would mean none of the rifle attached setups are good to go if that causes a meaningful variance though.
I think most of the rifle attached set ups would fall into Garmins window from the muzzle though right?
I assume there is some level of accuracy that is effected by going outside of that window or else, the window would be bigger. There's probably also another window that provides accurate pick ups to a very high degree thats larger than the one they give (5" - 15" from muzzle), but may give a degree of variation that Garmin thought was too much.
How big that window is and how much accuracy is given up is the question. In all reality I probably won't ever even want to put mine outside of that window but it would be nice to be able to set it up on a tripod behind me and then shoot within that 6 foot x/y axis and be able to shoot in different positions, all while picking all shots up. That's definitely not my main purpose for the unit though
If someone misses the target, it sure isn't because your Xero vs LR had a 5-10 fps difference...
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I would have to say 'NO'. Reading it it seems you need to be 5-15 from the barrel, then 5-15 from the muzzle as well. I have yet to see one that is anywhere near 5" from barrel.
Now, what if you raise it up, say 2" ABOVE the barrel, then 3" from the barrel... will this cumulative amount put it in a workable window?
In any event, if it's CONSISTENT for a given placement, and YOU are consistent in that placement, you can still build DOPE etc from that.
But it's best you get consistent data regardless of where you place it, and if that requires you put it in that window, then that's what I would do. If I can get a away with a on firearm mount with negligible difference, I may do so. But I have no idea if that's the case. If I find out my mount on the firearm introduces 5 fps +/-, or worse, fluxuating results compared to a proper Garmin Window setup, then I have to rethink how I deploy the Xero.
The EE who helped design and build the Xero talks about this on the Shooter's Mind podcast. They started this Chrono build around/or before covid.
The basic breakdown I learned: it doesn't matter. And the unit is capable of being rifle mounted (they shot it consistently on ELR rigs. In fact, the designer shoots it on his 375 all the time.) and giving correct measurements within 10 degrees.
1) You shut your whore mouth. Every issue with my shooting is due to technical errors of equipment out of my control and/or the position of the moon.If someone misses the target, it sure isn't because your Xero vs LR had a 5-10 fps difference...
2) True, but I do want to understand how to get THE most consistent data from it and make it a standard for all the ballistic solvers, DOPE tables, etc that I have and while 10 fps isn't going to stop me from hitting a target on the range at at 300+++ yds with 22lr, it may very prevent my solves from getting 1st round hits.
EDIT: Nice, I am going to look up that podcast, that's awesome insight.
PodCast referenced:
https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/theshootersmindset/episodes/The-Shooters-Mindset-Episode-422-Greg-Glass--Francis-Colon-Garmin-Xero-C1-Chronograph-live-QA-e2b2msf/a-aahbsp4
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Yeah I didn't realize they recommended it be 5"-15" left or right of the barrel as well. Seems to work pretty well closer to the barrel though from what others who've shot it a lot on a weapon mount have said. The front to back placement is what I was referring to. I could mount mine now but there's really no reason for me to yet so I will very likely stick to having it off the rifle anyway, but I'm sure I will test it front to back placement and see how it goes while shooting just to see.
I see we have another sophisticated cinema fan who has seen the greatest documentary ever made...
I accidentally fired too quickly and realized I missed a couple readings. Just wait until it shows the previous shot’s velocity before the next shot.
Considering you shoot directly above it with pistols, I’m guessing that having it a little above a rifle is fine. I think they’re just trying to keep the unit away from muzzle brake blast on rifles.
Mine actually picked up a pistol shot from the bay next to me. The bays were very narrow, so I doubt most would have issues picking up someone else’s shots. BUT, I think it shows how wide the area is where the Xero can be positioned. The velocity I got from the guy’s shot was plausibly correct for what he was shooting.
Played around with the Garmin at the range today. Wanted to see how it'd do compared to my LabRadar, how it'd do with pistol, lever action, etc. Overall, extremely impressed. It didn't miss a shot all day, and didn't pick up any shots from neighboring shooters either. Way easier to aim than the LabRadar, basically just point it somewhere down range and it'll pick up your shots. Towards the end I was just walking down the firing line and holding it in my hand next to people's rifles, and it was picking up their shots. Pretty remarkable.
We compared the Garmin side by side with 3 different labradars, a magneto speed, and a bullet seeker. Pretty much every shot, the Garmin was within 5 FPS of the other device. It was pretty reliably 5 FPS different every time, none of the devices were an exact match. Didn't bother comparing averages or ES/SD as I was mostly just messing around.
One of the labradars seemed to be affected by the Garmin though. It would not pick up shots when the Garmin was armed. Disarmed the Garmin and the LabRadar would start picking up shots again. Re-arm the Garmin and the LR woukd stop again. Tried 4 different frequencies on that LR and oddly enough it eventually started working just fine back on its original frequency. Was pretty odd. The other two LRs were fine. The Garmin worked fine regardless of the LR, so it was a one-way street.
Pistol and lever action (pistol caliber) were no problem at all. I started out with the chrono on a bench about ~20" or so below the pistol shooting straight over it, no problem. Then moved side to side couple feet, fired to the left side of the bay and to the right.. it picked up every shot just fine. You do have to wait for it to register the shot, so 1 round per 1-2 seconds is about as fast as you can go. But if you just mag dump over the top of it, it'll still pick up shots when it resets between readings. Oh and it had no problem picking up rimfire either.
Nothing scientific or statistically significant here, but I thought some people may be interested anyway and thought I'd share.
We compared the Garmin side by side with 3 different labradars, a magneto speed, and a bullet seeker. Pretty much every shot, the Garmin was within 5 FPS of the other device. It was pretty reliably 5 FPS different every time, none of the devices were an exact match. Didn't bother comparing averages or ES/SD as I was mostly just messing around.
One of the labradars seemed to be affected by the Garmin though. It would not pick up shots when the Garmin was armed. Disarmed the Garmin and the LabRadar would start picking up shots again. Re-arm the Garmin and the LR woukd stop again. Tried 4 different frequencies on that LR and oddly enough it eventually started working just fine back on its original frequency. Was pretty odd. The other two LRs were fine. The Garmin worked fine regardless of the LR, so it was a one-way street.
Pistol and lever action (pistol caliber) were no problem at all. I started out with the chrono on a bench about ~20" or so below the pistol shooting straight over it, no problem. Then moved side to side couple feet, fired to the left side of the bay and to the right.. it picked up every shot just fine. You do have to wait for it to register the shot, so 1 round per 1-2 seconds is about as fast as you can go. But if you just mag dump over the top of it, it'll still pick up shots when it resets between readings. Oh and it had no problem picking up rimfire either.
Nothing scientific or statistically significant here, but I thought some people may be interested anyway and thought I'd share.
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Interedasting. I haven't put it in pistol mode yet. You're correct. Maybe it just is to protect the unit?
I hope that's the case.
The youtube video earlier on placement shows it picked up shots out to about 1 meter.
Has anyone tried the Garmin with Black Powder loads? I know that the smoke plays games with the Ohler
So doing this today shooting 300PRC and using the microphone on the LR, my biggest Delta on any given shot (over 15 shots) was about 6fps. Very close, consistent performance. I also ran it against a 338 using a LR/recoil trigger (17 shots) and got similar results. My previous testing that yielded larger Deltas using a LR/recoil trigger was with a 6.5CM. So now I have a new theory that the heavier recoil from the 338 makes the recoil trigger more consistent than the lighter recoil of the 6.5. I don't know, just guessing. But I had some Deltas in the 19-21 range when shooting it against the 6.5 with LR/recoil trigger, but nothing over 6 with the 338/recoil trigger LR, or the microphone-triggered LR 300PRC.
Smoke won’t effect a 24 GHz radar. Heavy rain will, but not smoke.
It’s safe to say at this point that the Xero is accurate enough for a majority of the users to load develop with.
Would you mind posting some measurements, specifically with the legs completely collapsed and the ball head turned 90* to the side? I want to see if it’ll fit in the case I ordered for everything. Thank you.
It's about 8.1" with the legs collapsed and the ball head turned to the side. I have everything in a pelican 1150 which is 8.29" inside and it fits with a little room to spare.
I wish it was a little bit shorter with the legs fully collapsed so I could have fit it in a smaller case, but I'll live with it to have a more stable tripod.
4.5” if that helps. Collapses lower and made of aluminum.
Saw that one, might buy one to check it out.
I bought the manfrotto because of the built in ball head, 2 leg angles, and extendable legs; leaves you with more room for adjustment, and with the legs at the lowest angle fully extended it's very stable.
Thanks. I ordered the evergreen 56 that was listed a few pages ago, it says 8.4” internally so it should be alright. I’m hoping I can fit the garmin, better tripod and my kestrel in the same case.
Same tripod I believe but with a ball head and only 6.4” long. Do you know if the legs can be set at any point between open and closed or is it basically open the whole way to where it’s nearly flat or partially open?
I have an Evergreen 56 and a Leofoto MT-02C mini tripod with an LH-22 ball head coming in tomorrow. I’ll let you know how it fits.
For those still not convinced the Xero is accurate enough against XYZ just know that Erik Cortina is now using one. Like him or hate him I’m sure he knows a thing or two about load development and solid numbers. 
Looks like a great piece of kit! Too bad optics planet went oos after my order so I’ll be waiting like many others and couldn’t fulfill my order. O well.
Great info as usual boys. Keep it coming. I look forward to getting one at some point to test.
Great info as usual boys. Keep it coming. I look forward to getting one at some point to test.
Any Hide vendors have them in stock? Or any vendors at all for that matter?
