Range Report Group size means little

[Racer88]

To that end, this thread went on a small tangent.

The point I was originally trying to convey was that extreme spread, outside-to-outside group measurements offer data only on 2 points of the 3,5,10,20, 50 you shoot. What offers better results in quantifying the dispersion is average radius (mean radius).

If I dare interject, as I don't consider myself an "expert" on this stuff. But, I definitely qualify as a geek. I tried to explain this same concept on a local forum (if I'm understanding your effort correctly here).

OK... so, I took a blank target bullseye image and plugged it into my OnTarget computer app. Then I simply "shot" the target 10 times with the app. Each time I started with the same two shots to establish identical Extreme Spread for the group. Then I filled in the other 8 shots, but with different patterns. So, the traditional MOA measurement is exactly the same for each group.

Each pattern of shots is admittedly exaggerated to demonstrate the concept of why Mean Radius is a more meaningful calculation than the standard MOA. That's not to suggest the traditional MOA measurement is without value. But, if you're really trying to figure out the best ammo load... or whether an equipment modification / upgrade is helping, understanding Mean Radius vs traditional MOA may help.

Here we go... The same first two shots (at 3:00 and 9:00) were made to establish the same Extreme Spread for each target... 3 inches (at 100 yards). So, the standard MOA calculation is the same for each target... about 3-MOA.

First target - a somewhat "even" distribution of shots.
Traditional MOA is 3-MOA. Mean Radius is 0.949-inches / 0.906-MOA

Second target - 8 shots are a bit more concentrated.
Traditional MOA is 3-MOA. Mean Radius is 0.743-inches / 0.709-MOA

Third target - a much more concentrated distribution of the remaining 8 shots.
Traditional MOA is 3-MOA. Mean Radius is 0.600-inches / 0.573-MOA

Now, I get that even to the casual observer, it should be obvious that the 3rd target is a better result than the first target despite the traditional MOA measurement being 3-MOA for both. Again, these three examples were intentionally exaggerated to make the point. But, real targets with multiple-shot-groups may be more difficult to discern with casual observation. Using an app like this quantifies the groups so we don't have to depend on "eyeballing" it to try to figure out which one is better.

But, if we are using traditionally-measured MOA (including all the shots) to evaluate various ammo loads (or other equipment changes), we may not be using the best data nor getting a true picture of the results.

The easy way is to discard the "flyers" and measure the remaining tighter group and convert to MOA. But, are they really "flyers?" And dare you face the consternation of your fellow shooters for discarding those flyers?!?

When it comes to determining the best ammo load, using the Mean Radius while including all your shots (over multiple groups) may be a more statistically valid analysis.

Did I get it right, Ledzep??

 

[Ledzep]

Yep, pretty much. Plus some baggage related to sample size and load development methods

 

[Milo 2.5]

I thought you were going to school to build bridges, lol. Sit back and wait till the golden gate to falls into the bay.
Considering our platforms are not really designed for ultimate group shooting. Of coarse we want a load that lives up to our expectations, which in that are about as individual as the underwear we decide to wear. At some point, when does validating a load become counter productive. The more shots you take, the bigger the group size, the more times you break from the rifle, the harder it becomes to duplicate the sight picture. Just in the time it takes to shoot a 5 shot group, you may need to adjust the focus on your scope, either from barrel heat or an atmosphere change.
I think the engineer in your is surfacing and you have over thought this, not saying you are wrong in your findings though.
Develop a load, every outing shoot a group at some distance, any distance, your choice, determine if it is satisfactory, if it is not, now enter all the criteria, with you being the focal point.
I develop a load at distance, I give 2 shits what a LR rig will do at 100, and I used to want calm days, and never close to a full value wind. Over time, I have learned that a wind from behind me is actually the worst for skewed data.
My barrels never seem to last that long, shooting a 50 shot group is not happening, smaller groups throughout a range trip is fine, but if the rifle is hitting where it was intended too, waste of resources.
I am 200 rds into a 25 saum and through a slew of what hasn't gone wrong, I am no closer on a load than I was 150 rds ago. Waiting on a different powder, plans to swap brass in May, and maybe underlying issues with the gun itself or dies, I don't have the barrel life to group shoot, I want to have some fun.

 

[Racer88]

Yep, pretty much. Plus some baggage related to sample size and load development methods

Certainly the same thing could be done with larger sample size (more shots) and at longer distances. I kept it to 10 rounds, mainly because it was easy to look at and was enough to adequately demonstrate the concept.

But, I finally figured out what the "Mean Radius" meant! I was pretty proud of my demonstration!

 

[Ledzep]

I am 200 rds into a 25 saum and through a slew of what hasn't gone wrong, I am no closer on a load than I was 150 rds ago. Waiting on a different powder, plans to swap brass in May, and maybe underlying issues with the gun itself or dies, I don't have the barrel life to group shoot, I want to have some fun.

I remember one time mentioning a 6mm SAUM to you and you said "Don't be retarded"... Getting pretty close there!

So while this got pretty in depth, and I've done a lot of testing to try to validate traditional methods of load development, the intent of the testing is to see what matters and what doesn't, and I think what will come out of it will ultimately make things much simpler. For me at least. lol. If it's any indication, I have done all of the testing to this point, and there's a LEE powder thrower set up on my reloading bench for my 6.5cm and while I have access to scales that weigh to +/- .02gr, they're turned off and put away...

 

[47guy]

so when does shooter fatigue start to come into these large group samples?

 

[Milo 2.5]

I remember one time mentioning a 6mm SAUM to you and you said "Don't be retarded"... Getting pretty close there!

No shit, lmao
I wanted to try the Ace over 3K and make an assessment, saum seemed logical then. I could walk from this fiasco at any moment.
Lots of ways to develop loads, we all have one and experiment. No matter what path I take, I pick a distance for a cartridge, say 900 yards for a dasher, 1200 for a 6mm with some horsepower, if at that distance the load will not hold acceptable vertical on a calmer day, it is worthless. Back to the bench.
But yes, any info on how to cut back on the number of rds fired in finding the load is always welcome, carry on.

 

[HMRamateur]

so when does shooter fatigue start to come into these large group samples?

Compare it to any sport, even the best can't let off 50 shots without pulling a few here or there. Then there's the shots that felt good, but still didn't make it. Is that when we blame the rifle, or the load? I'm sure Michael Jordan wouldn't blame the ball.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I thought you were going to school to build bridges, lol. Sit back and wait till the golden gate to falls into the bay.
Considering our platforms are not really designed for ultimate group shooting. Of coarse we want a load that lives up to our expectations, which in that are about as individual as the underwear we decide to wear. At some point, when does validating a load become counter productive. The more shots you take, the bigger the group size, the more times you break from the rifle, the harder it becomes to duplicate the sight picture. Just in the time it takes to shoot a 5 shot group, you may need to adjust the focus on your scope, either from barrel heat or an atmosphere change.
I think the engineer in your is surfacing and you have over thought this, not saying you are wrong in your findings though.
Develop a load, every outing shoot a group at some distance, any distance, your choice, determine if it is satisfactory, if it is not, now enter all the criteria, with you being the focal point.
I develop a load at distance, I give 2 shits what a LR rig will do at 100, and I used to want calm days, and never close to a full value wind. Over time, I have learned that a wind from behind me is actually the worst for skewed data.
My barrels never seem to last that long, shooting a 50 shot group is not happening, smaller groups throughout a range trip is fine, but if the rifle is hitting where it was intended too, waste of resources.
I am 200 rds into a 25 saum and through a slew of what hasn't gone wrong, I am no closer on a load than I was 150 rds ago. Waiting on a different powder, plans to swap brass in May, and maybe underlying issues with the gun itself or dies, I don't have the barrel life to group shoot, I want to have some fun.

Lol, that's funny I was just going to ask @Ledzep if he was an engineer because this conversation is eerily reminiscent of ones I have at work.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If I dare interject, as I don't consider myself an "expert" on this stuff. But, I definitely qualify as a geek. I tried to explain this same concept on a local forum (if I'm understanding your effort correctly here).

OK... so, I took a blank target bullseye image and plugged it into my OnTarget computer app. Then I simply "shot" the target 10 times with the app. Each time I started with the same two shots to establish identical Extreme Spread for the group. Then I filled in the other 8 shots, but with different patterns. So, the traditional MOA measurement is exactly the same for each group.

Each pattern of shots is admittedly exaggerated to demonstrate the concept of why Mean Radius is a more meaningful calculation than the standard MOA. That's not to suggest the traditional MOA measurement is without value. But, if you're really trying to figure out the best ammo load... or whether an equipment modification / upgrade is helping, understanding Mean Radius vs traditional MOA may help.

Here we go... The same first two shots (at 3:00 and 9:00) were made to establish the same Extreme Spread for each target... 3 inches (at 100 yards). So, the standard MOA calculation is the same for each target... about 3-MOA.

First target - a somewhat "even" distribution of shots.
Traditional MOA is 3-MOA. Mean Radius is 0.949-inches / 0.906-MOA
View attachment 7301585

Second target - 8 shots are a bit more concentrated.
Traditional MOA is 3-MOA. Mean Radius is 0.743-inches / 0.709-MOA

View attachment 7301586

Third target - a much more concentrated distribution of the remaining 8 shots.
Traditional MOA is 3-MOA. Mean Radius is 0.600-inches / 0.573-MOA

View attachment 7301588

Now, I get that even to the casual observer, it should be obvious that the 3rd target is a better result than the first target despite the traditional MOA measurement being 3-MOA for both. Again, these three examples were intentionally exaggerated to make the point. But, real targets with multiple-shot-groups may be more difficult to discern with casual observation. Using an app like this quantifies the groups so we don't have to depend on "eyeballing" it to try to figure out which one is better.

But, if we are using traditionally-measured MOA (including all the shots) to evaluate various ammo loads (or other equipment changes), we may not be using the best data nor getting a true picture of the results.

The easy way is to discard the "flyers" and measure the remaining tighter group and convert to MOA. But, are they really "flyers?" And dare you face the consternation of your fellow shooters for discarding those flyers?!?

When it comes to determining the best ammo load, using the Mean Radius while including all your shots (over multiple groups) may be a more statistically valid analysis.

Did I get it right, Ledzep??

So of those three which one would you explore as a potential load?

 

[Racer88]

So of those three which one would you explore as a potential load?

Believe it or not, I don't load my own ammo. I shoot factory match grade stuff.... for now. Maybe load my own some day. But, I still chrono and look at groups for the various factory loads to see which I think is best.

I would pick the last one (Target #3).

 

[RTH1800]

Morgan is correct. Some barrels are simply head and shoulders above the common “good” or even “very good” barrel.

The true secret is quickly determining a great one without wearing it out doing so.

My notes and records go back a long way. Too long.
Sometimes you don’t realize a barrel is a stunner until it’s gone.

A truly great barrel exhibits traits that common good barrels do not. My use requires different attributes than a PRS barrel. I also don’t put blind faith in computer ballistics. Some bullets preform better than BC’s published predict and others fall short. Proof is in the pudding.

I don’t know why some barrels are great and others just good but I do know how to quickly tell. And no, I’m not posting it. The computer nerds will refute it and demand 500 shot groups to “prove” it. Others won’t believe it.

 

[RTH1800]

I will also add that confidence is a huge part of making a difficult shot. Testing beyond reason can erode confidence in your system/ability to make a shot.
I suspect you will find most great shooters don’t get too deep into statistics. It’s not all a thinking game. At some point you gotta cut loose.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Morgan is correct. Some barrels are simply head and shoulders above the common “good” or even “very good” barrel.

The true secret is quickly determining a great one without wearing it out doing so.

My notes and records go back a long way. Too long.
Sometimes you don’t realize a barrel is a stunner until it’s gone.

A truly great barrel exhibits traits that common good barrels do not. My use requires different attributes than a PRS barrel. I also don’t put blind faith in computer ballistics. Some bullets preform better than BC’s published predict and others fall short. Proof is in the pudding.

I don’t know why some barrels are great and others just good but I do know how to quickly tell. And no, I’m not posting it. The computer nerds will refute it and demand 500 shot groups to “prove” it. Others won’t believe it.

It gets harder and harder to "classify" barrels these days, as so much goes into making the assumption. Barrels today are quite a bit better overall than say 7-8 yrs ago. I have had excellent shooting barrels that needed cleaned way too often so though I recall them, they do not bring fond memories.
I myself rely on my brain as I do not keep records but remember the great ones, easy to tune, lax cleaning regimen, shot great, but every one of those died an early death. One brand so much, I refuse to buy them even though the accuracy from each was phenomenal, losing a barrel when you expect 40% more life from is disheartening. I wish I owned a hardness tester.

 

[morganlamprecht]

This is kinda veering off topic perhaps, but...One of my hammer 6s...I loaded 40gr with a 108 to break-in/speed up the barrel...it shot so good I never messed with load dev...shot it for 900ish rounds and it was starting to slow down (15-20 rounds stages at Rifles Only whacked it) but was still shooting sub 1/2moa...just for fun, we decided to see if we could mess it up

we cut 1.5” off of it, rechambered it, and hand throated it ~.050”...these were the first 15 rounds (in the rain even) from the recut with the same exact load from day 1...no foulers or anything, pulled off the lathe, patched out and screwed onto the action

I may never get rid of this thing

Many of my other barrels, no amount of powder changes, seating changes, neck tension, etc...ever got them to shoot as consistently as this one has with zero load work

 

[Tchitcherine]

I appreciate Ledzep's concept, and the (post #45) illustration of multiple "random walks" towards the common underlying mean diameter. It's a good insight.

 

[47guy]

Compare it to any sport, even the best can't let off 50 shots without pulling a few here or there. Then there's the shots that felt good, but still didn't make it. Is that when we blame the rifle, or the load? I'm sure Michael Jordan wouldn't blame the ball.

not me i blame the actual problem...the shooter...because 99% of the time that is the problem.
i was one of the guys for years that blamed everything on the gun until one day i set my pride aside and thats when things got better for me.

 

[47guy]

I will also add that confidence is a huge part of making a difficult shot. Testing beyond reason can erode confidence in your system/ability to make a shot.
I suspect you will find most great shooters don’t get too deep into statistics. It’s not all a thinking game. At some point you gotta cut loose.

i also agree with you post #62...ive shot over 30 barrels probably coming up on 35-37 and of all them 2 stand out...one was a 260rem the other is my current 6BRA...ive only had 1 that just would not shoot and one that shot but was like humm its alright...all the others have shot great but not like the 2.

 

[47guy]

like i said in the 419 press thread...reloading is the most over thought thing on the planet....i use to be just as enthusiastic about reloading as @Ledzep and a few of you other guys but burnt myself out. i live 10mins for where i shoot so i use to go out 4-5 times a day testing shit...i shot out a couple of barrels testing primers and trimming meplats and tipping bullets.

it got to the point a few yrs ago that i did not want to shoot and i didnt for almost 2 months thats when i decided i was done with all the insanity....EVERYONE strives for this perfect unicorn load with the perfect SDs and ESs...well when you find that load go shoot a large sample over a chrony and ill bet money those perfect number do not hold up...if im under 30fps im done because now matter what i do ive always ended up between 20 and 30fps.

 

[RTH1800]

i also agree with you post #62...ive shot over 30 barrels probably coming up on 35-37 and of all them 2 stand out...one was a 260rem the other is my current 6BRA...ive only had 1 that just would not shoot and one that shot but was like humm its alright...all the others have shot great but not like the 2.

Statistically your ratio of spectacular shooters mirrors mine.
I suspect you had no way of determining any differences other than shooting?

 

[47guy]

Statistically your ratio of spectacular shooters mirrors mine.
I suspect you had no way of determining any differences other than shooting?

nope...the things that stick out the most to me about an exceptional barrel are how forgiving they are with load development and how consistent they shoot over the life of the barrel.

for instance this current BRA is a 26" bartlien i fire formed 110 cases...did my normal break in then shot about 20-25 rounds with 4895 and was not seeing anything that jumped out...loaded 5 at 30.9 to foul then 3 each at 31.1-31.3-31.5-31.7 and 31.9g varget...31.1-31.3-31.5 and 31.7 all shot .243 to .245 edge to edge groups at 100yds and 31.9 was .260-.270...i chose 31.3g and have been shooting this same exact load for just over 1200 rounds...started at .005 off and am now about .015-.016 off still running 2975ish and will still shoot .260 edge to edge at 100yds...normally at about 900-1000 rounds ive done a mini or tune up load development to keep a barrel shooting that well...as a side note i can replace a 105 hybrid with a 109 hybrid same charge same seating and the 109s will shoot 2.5" at 600yds at 2945-2950.

ive shot kreiger,hawk hill,shilen,1 criterion and mostly bartlein the 2 shooters were/are bartleins...cut barrels have shot better for me than the button barrels and the cut barrels have always cleaned up easier and the best shooting barrels have been barts with the hawk hill running a very close second.

 

[djarecke]

This is kinda veering off topic perhaps, but...One of my hammer 6s...I loaded 40gr with a 108 to break-in/speed up the barrel...it shot so good I never messed with load dev...shot it for 900ish rounds and it was starting to slow down (15-20 rounds stages at Rifles Only whacked it) but was still shooting sub 1/2moa...just for fun, we decided to see if we could mess it up

we cut 1.5” off of it, rechambered it, and hand throated it ~.050”...these were the first 15 rounds (in the rain even) from the recut with the same exact load from day 1...no foulers or anything, pulled off the lathe, patched out and screwed onto the action

View attachment 7301771View attachment 7301773
View attachment 7301777

I may never get rid of this thing

Many of my other barrels, no amount of powder changes, seating changes, neck tension, etc...ever got them to shoot as consistently as this one has with zero load work

Exactly!!! I've used about 10 barrels in the last few years, and have had 2 that were "special". It's hard to explain exactly "what" makes them special, but when you get one, you'll know. One of my worn out 6BRA barrels has 3500 rounds on it, refuses to slow down or shoot poorly, and just plain hammers. I did two x 8 shot ladders at 100 yards with it just for fun and it all 8 shots across any powder charge you could fit in a BRA case were in the .3's.

In other words, no amount of "analysis" or group size will make a difference or change this barrel's mind. It will shoot anything well. Other barrels have been good or very good, but even one's that were just "good" still didn't require 50 rounds to develop a sense of how the barrel was working. You can usually tell right away if you've got a hammer.

 

[memilanuk]

So... since we've generally established that yes, more shots tends to give a more honest representation of the actual capability of a given load...

I'm curious how some of you (specifically @Ledzep and @morganlamprecht , since you both seem to be on the same page here) would approach load development? How many rounds per increment, etc.?

Let's say, for the sake of discussion/argument, that it's for a gun/caliber/cartridge that is completely new to you, i.e. not really able to 'shortcut' anything by plucking a known-good load out of thin air to start with ?

No magic 'hummer' barrels that shoot everything into one hole, either ?

 

[BCX]

I prefer to do my load development at 300 yards before taking it to distance. Im my experience 300 yards will tell you more than shooting groups at 100. Once i think i have a good load, i will test in low to high temps. Not only will i shoot for groups but i also run a Magnetospeed to track my ES, Sd. w extra ammo.

 

[47guy]

I prefer to do my load development at 300 yards before taking it to distance. Im my experience 300 yards will tell you more than shooting groups at 100. Once i think i have a good load, i will test in low to high temps. Not only will i shoot for groups but i also run a Magnetospeed to track my ES, Sd. w extra ammo.

so an honest question and not trying to be a dick but are you consistent enough behind the gun at 300yds to know when a shot goes out of a group that it was the load?

 

[BCX]

so an honest question and not trying to be a dick but are you consistent enough behind the gun at 300yds to know when a shot goes out of a group that it was the load?

I test, test, and retest in 0-95 degrees. The loads i settle on are usually sub 1 inch at 300. Have shot many .5 inch groups at 300. After i get a load shooting good at 300 i test at 1k which is usually fist size, give or take depending on wind. Im dealing w a load now that shot sub 1 inch at 300, tested at 1k and its a NOT SO PERFECT group now. Perfect vertical group tested on multiple days w different bipods, soft vs hard rear bags. Changed brakes and chassis. Something changed w that load so I'm dealing w that now. Even bought a AMP machine, figuring annealing would cure it. Its weird i have shot a few hundred rounds w that identical load and it always shot well at 1k.

FYI that load that went south on me w still shoot 1 ragged hole at 100 and thats why i don't waste time working loads at 100.

 

[BCX]

Im no expert but my method of mapping or working a load works for me. I usually shoot multiple guns prone during the same outings. Figuring it was me the shooter due to thermal updrafts, wind or mirage? I would jump on another rifle and bang problem solved..nice tight group. This game can be very frustrating at times LOL.

 

[Ledzep]

I pick a bullet and a powder, look at the load book (Hodgdon, Hornady, etc.) and pick something that's usually about .5-1.5gr under max book charge. I load 20 of them .025" off the lands and shoot them on a lab radar and on paper at 100yd. I print out the same target and will shoot either 2x 10 shot groups or 4x 5 shot groups stapling a new paper over the old one for each new group. The back paper has the 20 shot group, and I can measure mean radius off of the 5 shot groups (not one big hole). If the mean radius is under .310" and/or the total group is under 1.2" at 100, and the SD on velocity is under 13fps I keep it.

If I don't get what I want I may try dropping charge by 1-2 grains; gross adjustment. Most likely will end up changing powders, then bullets until I get acceptable results. If I can't I'll change barrels. IME barrel+bullet+powder combos will do what they do in the long run. No sense in trying to massage anything out of them. Bullets do vary lot by lot, too, so don't completely give up on a particular bullet based on 1 lot.

In my experience the small changes people try (ever .1, .2, .3gr for example) don't make any difference. Same for seating depth. In fact, I've seen extremely minimal difference between weighing charges to the kernel vs. throwing them to +/- 0.4gr. Like almost no difference in accuracy, and maybe 1-2fps on SD. I will give it the benefit of the doubt for the initial 20 and weigh them all, but after that I throw charges.

 

[BCX]

I use to do the 20 shot 100 yard group w my 308 for 1k testing but its a waste of money for me w my 338 LM AI. I have to conserve powder. All the popular powders are out of stock lol. Im down to my last 8lb jug of RL-33

 

[Milo 2.5]

I test, test, and retest in 0-95 degrees.

I am all for the way you do load dev. I have said for yrs who cares what the load does at 100. If done at 100, some loads hold, some do not, I think a guy takes way more shots to validate a load at 100, just my .02.
Question, you say you test from 0-95deg, are you testing or validating, big difference to me? I just had a new rifle built, be some time before I can shoot in 95 deg weather, hell, the barrel may be toast by then.

 

[BCX]

Its funny how some people get tied up in 100 yard groups just to get that load out at distance and it falls apart. FB forums are great for a good laugh lol

 

[47guy]

Im no expert but my method of mapping or working a load works for me. I usually shoot multiple guns prone during the same outings. Figuring it was me the shooter due to thermal updrafts, wind or mirage? I would jump on another rifle and bang problem solved..nice tight group. This game can be very frustrating at times LOL.

I test, test, and retest in 0-95 degrees. The loads i settle on are usually sub 1 inch at 300. Have shot many .5 inch groups at 300. After i get a load shooting good at 300 i test at 1k which is usually fist size, give or take depending on wind. Im dealing w a load now that shot sub 1 inch at 300, tested at 1k and its a NOT SO PERFECT group now. Perfect vertical group tested on multiple days w different bipods, soft vs hard rear bags. Changed brakes and chassis. Something changed w that load so I'm dealing w that now. Even bought a AMP machine, figuring annealing would cure it. Its weird i have shot a few hundred rounds w that identical load and it always shot well at 1k.

FYI that load that went south on me w still shoot 1 ragged hole at 100 and thats why i don't waste time working loads at 100.

sounds like your good enough to know.

 

[47guy]

Its funny how some people get tied up in 100 yard groups just to get that load out at distance and it falls apart. FB forums are great for a good laugh lol

ive only had this happen a couple of times.

 

[BCX]

I am all for the way you do load dev. I have said for yrs who cares what the load does at 100. If done at 100, some loads hold, some do not, I think a guy takes way more shots to validate a load at 100, just my .02.
Question, you say you test from 0-95deg, are you testing or validating, big difference to me? I just had a new rifle built, be some time before I can shoot in 95 deg weather, hell, the barrel may be toast by then.

I guess i am validating my findings throughout the year. Temps can wreck havoc on a good load.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Its funny how some people get tied up in 100 yard groups just to get that load out at distance and it falls apart. FB forums are great for a good laugh lol

ABSOLUTELY. 100 is for zero only.

 

[BCX]

ive only had this happen a couple of times.

Lot of variables to work with. Practice makes perfect but i wouldn't spend to much time at 100 unless your shooting a 22

 

[BCX]

I would rather throw a couple hundred $ down at distance banging steel prone than wasting that money sitting on a bench at 100 yards like most of the local shooters here do.

 

[Milo 2.5]

ive only had this happen a couple of times.

Still disappointing when it happens, lol, no matter where it is done.
Thing is, we all have differing degrees of accuracy we expect from a rifle and the load, and this is where some disconnect between us can surface. If I told you what I demand, i'd expect you to tell me that I am full of shit. So basically as a whole we do not have a standard.
Throw in excellent barrels vs good barrels, that needs to be deciphered quickly. I have a 6x47 by pure accuracy standards, it is not a great rifle, not sure why, but it flat hits what it is aimed at, every day, so it is a good rifle.
I have a story on a 6SLR that blew my mind, don't have the time to relay it, and it took me 3 outings to figure it out, joke was on me.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I guess i am validating my findings throughout the year. Temps can wreck havoc on a good load.

Thanks

 

[BCX]

I don't shoot PRS but i would imagine those guys don't get tied up w 100 yards groups. Shooting in multiple field positions under time is tough.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I guess i am validating my findings throughout the year. Temps can wreck havoc on a good load.

That is why you never leave the house w/o a chrono.

 

[47guy]

Still disappointing when it happens, lol, no matter where it is done.
Thing is, we all have differing degrees of accuracy we expect from a rifle and the load, and this is where some disconnect between us can surface. If I told you what I demand, i'd expect you to tell me that I am full of shit. So basically as a whole we do not have a standard.
Throw in excellent barrels vs good barrels, that needs to be deciphered quickly. I have a 6x47 by pure accuracy standards, it is not a great rifle, not sure why, but it flat hits what it is aimed at, every day, so it is a good rifle.
I have a story on a 6SLR that blew my mind, don't have the time to relay it, and it took me 3 outings to figure it out, joke was on me.

you and i are on the same page and expect the same thing we just go about it a little differently.

 

[47guy]

I would rather throw a couple hundred $ down at distance banging steel prone than wasting that money sitting on a bench at 100 yards like most of the local shooters here do.

i do do my initial load development at 100yds and as i said ive only had a couple of times that that load did not shoot out at distance...the thing is i always end up with at least 2 loads most times 3 from the 100yd LD that i shoot at 600 to verify....we are all looking for the same thing we just go about it differently.

 

[47guy]

Also this makes load development easy...

 

[BCX]

i do do my initial load development at 100yds and as i said ive only had a couple of times that that load did not shoot out at distance...the thing is i always end up with at least 2 loads most times 3 from the 100yd LD that i shoot at 600 to verify....we are all looking for the same thing we just go about it differently.

100 yards doesn't show vertical spread for me. I had a AR custom built years ago, best i could do at 100 was 1.25-1.5 consistently w factory ammo. Took it out to 600 prone on a f-class target and was shooting 1.5 groups go figure. Hung a 4 inch AR plate out and went 10 for 10 without letting the barrel cool in 85 degree temp. Blew my mind w factory ammo! Bartlein Barrels always shoot for me.

 

[BCX]

Just built one this week on my kitchen table w a Proof barrel. Hopefully it shoots w factory ammo.

 

[morganlamprecht]

no one who is strongly invested in load dev is going to like my answer lol

there would also be quite a few disclaimers as i dont like absolutes...i havent seen EVERY possible situation, obviously, but i know what ive seen

i have no factory barrels/center fire rifles in my safe (besides a couple single shot falling blocks and lever guns for sub 200yd killing)...so anything id do any kind of real load dev on is an aftermarket barrel

but for me...with a given bullet/powder combo...it simply doesnt matter for the type of field shooting i do over the life of the barrel

i have a few general preferences ive seen consistently over many barrels with components...if i want the best chances right out of the gate, ill shoot bergers and a tier 1 brass (usually lapua)...but ive played around with plenty other stuff to get to that conclusion

if i want better groups...switch bullets
better ES...switch powder/brass...even lot to lot some times
want to change the group potentially more than any load work changes would do? put a brake/can/weight on the end of the barrel

that said, i buy powder and bullets in large lots...so most of the time im shooting what im shooting...6 or 6.5s are either getting 105/108s or 130/140s hornady/bergers in my match guns...8208, varget, h4350, h4831, h1000, rl26, or rl33...whichever fits best...hunting rifles are a little different bullet selection, but im currently using berger 135 classic hunters in my newest 6.5prc barrel, last 3 trips out since settling on a load, cold bore + follow up hasnt missed the painted water line (~2") @ 400 yds and wind has been +/- .1, what more would i need from a hunting rifle...my other hunting barrels/guns have been shooting barnes LRXs for a couple years

for the last 6 months - 1 yr...i generally, seat a bullet .050-.100 off, shoot 8-12 different powder charges w/ a new/bullet/powder/caliber or whatever...not even groups, just 1 shot per charge...i chrono with a labradar, but i dont care what the velocities say other than a reference for where im at on speed...i shoot each shot at its own dot, i note where they are impacting...if theyre all over the map, i change powder/bullets...typically, all of them are 1/2-3/4" if mapped on the same aiming dot...i load a charge weight for the speed i want to shoot, then ill go out and confirm dope at distance...it hasnt been a problem yet

during that time, ive played with the same guns and various load work combos over and over...and on certain days, some loads seem like 100% winners over the others...but it all evened out 100s of rounds later...or as the bore condition changed from start to finish or day to day...so unless i was doing load tweaks constantly over the life of the barrel...it wouldnt have mattered much what i did to begin with...and then ive had some barrels that go trash, and no amount of load tweaking fixes anything, but recutting the throat longer or setting them back has

i have buddies who are as meticulous as you can get and good shooters...testing every powder charge in .1gr, every jump in .003" from 0-100, testing at various distances...u name it, their results aint any better than mine unless you start cherry picking results and explaining away outliers...

perhaps from a BR rig or fully tricked out f class rig on a single range at 1 distance...things would change im sure, but thats not my interest...ive been in field matches with some f class names too, it changes off a square range at paper

ive gone into matches (usually local club ones w/ 30-75 shooters), doing things on purpose i dont think anyone would do...last club match before corona shut everyone down, Feb '20 i think...i had a load in my 6.5creed barrel for my AI, i hadnt shot that barrel since April '19...we took the barrel off the week of the match...ran a hand throater in there and cut the throat back another .100"...when i rechrono'd my velocity was around 50 fps slower iirc...at the club match (first time id been at that range) i dropped 5 or 6 shots and went 4/4 @ 1200 yds...so how much does it really matter? the load still shot 1/2-3/4" at 100 in that barrel with 2k+ rounds on it

i dont claim "off" days and i count the "fliers", theres no explaining away for me...there are no off days, because i shoot how i shoot...the best shots count and so do the worst ones...all i care about is did the bullet go where i expected it to go within the margins of error for that particular shot...this changes based on my wobble and the situation... a swinging rope in 20mph winds vs prone on a perfect day arent going to have the same expectations...is what it is...usually when things get weird on a barrel, ill mess with it for a while and go in circles, then pull the barrel and put another on...problems gone

...now lets see how much my words get twisted and misunderstood lol fingers crossed...

 

[lash]

no one who is strongly invested in load dev is going to like my answer lol

there would also be quite a few disclaimers as i dont like absolutes...i havent seen EVERY possible situation, obviously, but i know what ive seen

i have no factory barrels/center fire rifles in my safe (besides a couple single shot falling blocks and lever guns for sub 200yd killing)...so anything id do any kind of real load dev on is an aftermarket barrel

but for me...with a given bullet/powder combo...it simply doesnt matter for the type of field shooting i do over the life of the barrel

i have a few general preferences ive seen consistently over many barrels with components...if i want the best chances right out of the gate, ill shoot bergers and a tier 1 brass (usually lapua)...but ive played around with plenty other stuff to get to that conclusion

if i want better groups...switch bullets
better ES...switch powder/brass...even lot to lot some times
want to change the group potentially more than any load work changes would do? put a brake/can/weight on the end of the barrel

that said, i buy powder and bullets in large lots...so most of the time im shooting what im shooting...6 or 6.5s are either getting 105/108s or 130/140s hornady/bergers in my match guns...8208, varget, h4350, h4831, h1000, rl26, or rl33...whichever fits best...hunting rifles are a little different bullet selection, but im currently using berger 135 classic hunters in my newest 6.5prc barrel, last 3 trips out since settling on a load, cold bore + follow up hasnt missed the painted water line (~2") @ 400 yds and wind has been +/- .1, what more would i need from a hunting rifle...my other hunting barrels/guns have been shooting barnes LRXs for a couple years

for the last 6 months - 1 yr...i generally, seat a bullet .050-.100 off, shoot 8-12 different powder charges w/ a new/bullet/powder/caliber or whatever...not even groups, just 1 shot per charge...i chrono with a labradar, but i dont care what the velocities say other than a reference for where im at on speed...i shoot each shot at its own dot, i note where they are impacting...if theyre all over the map, i change powder/bullets...typically, all of them are 1/2-3/4" if mapped on the same aiming dot...i load a charge weight for the speed i want to shoot, then ill go out and confirm dope at distance...it hasnt been a problem yet

during that time, ive played with the same guns and various load work combos over and over...and on certain days, some loads seem like 100% winners over the others...but it all evened out 100s of rounds later...or as the bore condition changed from start to finish or day to day...so unless i was doing load tweaks constantly over the life of the barrel...it wouldnt have mattered much what i did to begin with...and then ive had some barrels that go trash, and no amount of load tweaking fixes anything, but recutting the throat longer or setting them back has

i have buddies who are as meticulous as you can get and good shooters...testing every powder charge in .1gr, every jump in .003" from 0-100...u name it, their results aint any better than mine unless you start cherry picking results and explaining away outliers...

perhaps from a BR rig or fully tricked out f class rig on a single range at 1 distance...things would change im sure, but thats not my interest...ive been in field matches with some f class names too, it changes off a square range at paper

ive gone into matches (usually local club ones w/ 30-75 shooters), doing things on purpose i dont think anyone would do...last club match before corona shut everyone down, Feb '20 i think...i had a load in my 6.5creed barrel for my AI, i hadnt shot that barrel since April '19...we took the barrel off the week of the match...ran a hand throater in there and cut the throat back another .100"...when i rechrono'd my velocity was around 50 fps slower iirc...at the club match (first time id been at that range) i dropped 5 or 6 shots and went 4/4 @ 1200 yds...so how much does it really matter? the load still shot 1/2-3/4" at 100 in that barrel with 2k+ rounds on it

i dont claim "off" days and i count the "fliers", theres no explaining away for me...there are no off days, because i shoot how i shoot...the best shots count and so do the worst ones...all i care about is did the bullet go where i expected it to go within the margins of error for that particular shot...this changes based on my wobble and the situation... a swinging rope in 20mph winds vs prone on a perfect day arent going to have the same expectations...is what it is...usually when things get weird on a barrel, ill mess with it for a while and go in circles, then pull the barrel and put another on...problems gone

...now lets see how much my words get twisted and misunderstood lol

Excellent post!

 

[Milo 2.5]

no one who is strongly invested in load dev is going to like my answer lol

there would also be quite a few disclaimers as i dont like absolutes...i havent seen EVERY possible situation, obviously, but i know what ive seen

i have no factory barrels/center fire rifles in my safe (besides a couple single shot falling blocks and lever guns for sub 200yd killing)...so anything id do any kind of real load dev on is an aftermarket barrel

but for me...with a given bullet/powder combo...it simply doesnt matter for the type of field shooting i do over the life of the barrel

i have a few general preferences ive seen consistently over many barrels with components...if i want the best chances right out of the gate, ill shoot bergers and a tier 1 brass (usually lapua)...but ive played around with plenty other stuff to get to that conclusion

if i want better groups...switch bullets
better ES...switch powder/brass...even lot to lot some times
want to change the group potentially more than any load work changes would do? put a brake/can/weight on the end of the barrel

that said, i buy powder and bullets in large lots...so most of the time im shooting what im shooting...6 or 6.5s are either getting 105/108s or 130/140s hornady/bergers in my match guns...8208, varget, h4350, h4831, h1000, rl26, or rl33...whichever fits best...hunting rifles are a little different bullet selection, but im currently using berger 135 classic hunters in my newest 6.5prc barrel, last 3 trips out since settling on a load, cold bore + follow up hasnt missed the painted water line (~2") @ 400 yds and wind has been +/- .1, what more would i need from a hunting rifle...my other hunting barrels/guns have been shooting barnes LRXs for a couple years

for the last 6 months - 1 yr...i generally, seat a bullet .050-.100 off, shoot 8-12 different powder charges w/ a new/bullet/powder/caliber or whatever...not even groups, just 1 shot per charge...i chrono with a labradar, but i dont care what the velocities say other than a reference for where im at on speed...i shoot each shot at its own dot, i note where they are impacting...if theyre all over the map, i change powder/bullets...typically, all of them are 1/2-3/4" if mapped on the same aiming dot...i load a charge weight for the speed i want to shoot, then ill go out and confirm dope at distance...it hasnt been a problem yet

during that time, ive played with the same guns and various load work combos over and over...and on certain days, some loads seem like 100% winners over the others...but it all evened out 100s of rounds later...or as the bore condition changed from start to finish or day to day...so unless i was doing load tweaks constantly over the life of the barrel...it wouldnt have mattered much what i did to begin with...and then ive had some barrels that go trash, and no amount of load tweaking fixes anything, but recutting the throat longer or setting them back has

i have buddies who are as meticulous as you can get and good shooters...testing every powder charge in .1gr, every jump in .003" from 0-100...u name it, their results aint any better than mine unless you start cherry picking results and explaining away outliers...

perhaps from a BR rig or fully tricked out f class rig on a single range at 1 distance...things would change im sure, but thats not my interest...ive been in field matches with some f class names too, it changes off a square range at paper

ive gone into matches (usually local club ones w/ 30-75 shooters), doing things on purpose i dont think anyone would do...last club match before corona shut everyone down, Feb '20 i think...i had a load in my 6.5creed barrel for my AI, i hadnt shot that barrel since April '19...we took the barrel off the week of the match...ran a hand throater in there and cut the throat back another .100"...when i rechrono'd my velocity was around 50 fps slower iirc...at the club match (first time id been at that range) i dropped 5 or 6 shots and went 4/4 @ 1200 yds...so how much does it really matter? the load still shot 1/2-3/4" at 100 in that barrel with 2k+ rounds on it

i dont claim "off" days and i count the "fliers", theres no explaining away for me...there are no off days, because i shoot how i shoot...the best shots count and so do the worst ones...all i care about is did the bullet go where i expected it to go within the margins of error for that particular shot...this changes based on my wobble and the situation... a swinging rope in 20mph winds vs prone on a perfect day arent going to have the same expectations...is what it is...usually when things get weird on a barrel, ill mess with it for a while and go in circles, then pull the barrel and put another on...problems gone

...now lets see how much my words get twisted and misunderstood lol fingers crossed...

Lol, I feel no need to twist what you just said. At some point common sense needs to play, even in our expectations, and our abilities.

 

[47guy]

100 yards doesn't show vertical spread for me. I had a AR custom built years ago, best i could do at 100 was 1.25-1.5 consistently w factory ammo. Took it out to 600 prone on a f-class target and was shooting 1.5 groups go figure. Hung a 4 inch AR plate out and went 10 for 10 without letting the barrel cool in 85 degree temp. Blew my mind w factory ammo! Bartlein Barrels always shoot for me.

the last 6CM barrel i shot would not shoot under about 5/8s at 100yds but 200 and out was a hammer....i had a 260 barrel that WOULD NOT shoot ANYTHING over 2725ish...i seen a bergara 6.5creed come outta the box get a 100yd zero in 3 rounds then get on 1083yds steel and put 10 rounds on that steel with white tail ammo and all sorts of strange shit over the years.