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Gunsmithing Hobbyist equipment, 3-1 granite Mil/Lathe/Drill press?

K_4c

Old Salt
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Oct 13, 2008
    2,842
    64
    Nebraska
    I'm considering selling one of my rifles to fund a smithy 3-1 granite mil/lathe/drill press combo... Could a guy spin a barrel, inlet a stock, machine parts on the said set up? I'm ready to venture into being my own smith (plenty of errors/mishaps ahead I'm sure of that:)). I'd prefer to hear some guys who have any insight on the topic (I know I'm being vague, just looking for an all in one package to do my own gun work with). If its junk, just tell me...

    thanks for any and all of your advice,

    Kinnamon
     
    Something I've learned:

    If your buying equipment, buy more than what you "think" you'll need/want. There will ALWAYS be something you'll want/need to do later.

    Yes, you'll pay more money. Yes, it'll suck. Cry ONCE.

    Good luck.

    C.

    Understood sir.

    Can anyone recommend an at home instructional gunsmith course (I.e DVD, book or web)? I'd love to be an apprentice and learn that way, but it's not really an option around here.

    I have some mechanical background (I'm currently a Aviation Tech/QI), but the more resources to learn from the better.
     
    i went to school of hardknocks. tuition was very reasonable but the upstart charge was high. great one on one instructor student time with me and I. the instructor was not always curtious and cussed alot. drinks frequently too but i havent said anything to him. this is my last semester though and i will find me a certificate to download and frame.
     
    i went to school of hardknocks. tuition was very reasonable but the upstart charge was high. great one on one instructor student time with me and I. the instructor was not always curtious and cussed alot. drinks frequently too but i havent said anything to him. this is my last semester though and i will find me a certificate to download and frame.


    Haha... well, I don't plan on making this a business, just something I've always wanted to do.
     
    Same here. Just get a decent machine. Watch a shit ton of YouTube and start making chips. It's not that hard. Read the machine manual. Get a copy of the machinist handbook(also know as the bible) and start on some scrap shit. Next thin ya know. Wag lah....your gunsmiffin'
     
    I'm considering selling one of my rifles to fund a smithy 3-1 granite mil/lathe/drill press combo... Could a guy spin a barrel, inlet a stock, machine parts on the said set up? I'm ready to venture into being my own smith (plenty of errors/mishaps ahead I'm sure of that:)). I'd prefer to hear some guys who have any insight on the topic (I know I'm being vague, just looking for an all in one package to do my own gun work with). If its junk, just tell me...

    thanks for any and all of your advice,

    Kinnamon

    I had a Smithy and while its adequate for small projects I can tell you its not made for gunsmithing.
     
    At the risk of sounding like a jerk...


    When standing in front of a piece of equipment, your a machinist.

    When at the bench, your a gunsmith.

    The relationship between the two is symbiant, but they stand alone as very different.

    It's important to understand this. As a machinist topics like surface speed, tool geometry, etc become very important. Learning and understanding it will save you a ton of money, time, and aggravation. The volume of resources available can be overwhelming. A great place to start is with a tooling manufacturing catalog. Speed and feed charts are often listed. You bounce that information off the type of material/hardness your working with. In the end you get a set of values that define how you setup a particular job.

    "Winging it" may get you a part. It may also get you a work hardened mess or a tool friction welded and broken down inside a hole. (Reboot, thaw out the Visa card, and start over...)

    There's a "presence" here that will be inclined to roll eyeballs and summarize what I'm saying as trivial and unnecessary. I'm not out to change the world. YOU asked so I'm talking to YOU. These companies spend billions researching and developing this information. It exists for a reason.

    Gunsmithing:

    It's tough to source solid information and much of it can only be learned by doing and/or bugging someone who's done it for a long time when questions surface. The real trick is getting them to talk. You must remember that most gunsmiths are mavericks and a bit compartmentalized. Many don't go out of their way to share what they perceive as "the right answer" to building a rifle, pistol, etc. It's a competitive trade and making a dollar is tough.

    Good luck on your quest. Read, then get to work. Don't get bogged down in a book or DVD. Experience will never be overshadowed by education.

    C.
     
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    Machine tools are like guns in many ways...
    You can pretty reliably ring steel at 600 yards using an 03A3 and peep sights ($300) or you could pretty reliably ring steel at 600 yards with an AI-PSR (~$20,000)...
    I've seen some pretty amazing things done with 'light weight' tools used by someone that is deliberate and patient (which means not production oriented.)
    Wander around Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web to get a sense of where you might go from a humble start. (They even have a gunsmithing forum.)
    Good luck.
     
    Check out practicalmachinist.com Decent equipment shows up in the classifieds from time to time. They don't permit any import iron. There's a gunsmithing forum there as well. Any import machine you buy will be a project I don't care who sells it. That's not necessarily a bad thing. New chicom is generally better than worn out American. But I've never seen any chicom equipment that was ready to run out of the crate. You will have to clean it intensively before using it, tighten all the fasteners, and go through all the adjustments, minimum. Good American iron is out there, it will generally bring more than new chicom stuff but if it's been properly scraped and restored to new precision, it will exceed the performance of chicom stuff. The chicom stuff is still far behind 1950's vintage American equipment in the way of technology. Don;t get in a hurry to buy used, lots of junk out there.

    Check around you and see if there are any votech schools, there are some out there that can get you up to speed on proper machine tool operation.

    Check out mrpete222 channel on youtube, get a copy of the Southbend book "How To Run A Lathe" it's free everywhere.

    Tooling can cost you as much as the machine, while you can get by with import stuff on some items, be very careful when it comes to cutting tools. Some stuff is ok, generally stuff that come from modern countries, Swiss files, Israeli cutting inserts, Swiss indicators etc. Buy insert style tool holders to start with. When learning, stick to high speed steel. A.R. Warner makes HSS inserts as well as insert tooling.

    Carbide tooling is a science unto itself. Trust no one when choosing carbide inserts. Sit down with the manufacturers reference book and study it until you understand their inserts, the geometry, the application. It's cryptic and intimidating as hell until you master it. Tooling salesman & suppliers like to sell you inserts they are over stocked on and tell you that they'll work. They won't be there to help you when you're cursing a surface finish problem which is the result of the incorrect insert application. I'm getting way ahead of myself here.
     
    i went to school of hardknocks. tuition was very reasonable but the upstart charge was high. great one on one instructor student time with me and I. the instructor was not always curtious and cussed alot. drinks frequently too but i havent said anything to him. this is my last semester though and i will find me a certificate to download and frame.

    Bwahahaha!

    Well played!
     
    OP, you'll be bumfoggled at the prices of tooling and quality machines. I've heard it said before that a guy should plan on spending as much on tooling as he's spent on the machine.

    Also like with a lathe you need a big enough spindle bore to fit a barrel through so chambering a heavy barrel requires a decent sized machine.

    I tried to get away with buying homeowner grade machines and they do not do as I had hoped. They are too light and the oscillation produces a poor finish. The .001 values on the dials are incorrect so a DRO is needed and the list goes on too. Then every time I turned around I needed another specific tool to get a certain job done.

    The learning curve is painful as well, LOL. Plan on F'n up your work piece at least a couple times before you get it right.

    I stopped at a certain point and decided to leave the hard stuff for the pro's.

    All that being said I've been able to make some simple parts and machine some things that I needed "NOW". I'd rather have the cheap tools I've got than no machine tools at all.
     
    Shorten your learning curve and look into the NRA sponsored summer gunsmithing courses offered at Trinidad, Murray State College, and several others. Every summer they offer a machining for gunsmiths course and rifle re barreling, usually in consecutive weeks. That and local vo-tech may offer evening courses. I took two semesters years ago just to learn the use of the lathe and mill, along with machining principles. Then I took a re barreling course at Murray State College. It was a good start, although I don't re barrel even close to how I was taught in school now after reading most everything I could find on the net along with a bunch of videos available. Richard Franklin has some very good videos, along with Weaver I believe.

    Keep checking Craigslist, eBay, and machinery sales and auctions...you'll find some good equipment eventually. I looked for about 6 months before I found what I wanted in a lathe on craigslist, picked up a mill and surface grinder in an industrial auction, an various stuff here and there.
     
    I'll echo what Chad (Long Rifles, Inc) stated.

    If you don't have a mentor/gunsmith locally that you can learn from, start taking some classes at the local college for tool & die work. While (IMHO) gunsmithing is a unique aspect of machine work, it really is called "gun plumbing" for a reason; "gunsmithing" has more to do with making a buck (i.e. doing a job faster, with less tooling and/or less machine time) than uber machine tool use. The basics that Chad alludes to (understand speeds, feeds, tool geometry etc.) comes from understanding the machinist's trade (not necessarily just gunsmithing).

    I don't gunsmith for a living, nor does the former gunsmith I learned from make a living at it anymore (as he put it, "There are easier ways to make a living and feed the family"). That being said, there are a host of "tricks of the trade" that are in many books (Narramore's books, Brownell's Gunsmith Kink's etc.). These books are great for showing you some of these things, but without a basic machinist's set of skills, you're pissing up a rope (spending a lot of money figuring it out with broken tools, ruined stock and potentially mangled machines...a head crash ain't pretty).

    Machines are what folks get wrapped around, and think they have to have that to get started. In some cases I guess that's so, but in most, there's usually a college around that has some machinist's classes that'll help you decide if you really want to drop several grand for a machine (never mind the tooling and power requirements).

    Gunsmiths are a strange lot (as Chad alluded to); show some basic understanding of machinist's skills (or an aptitude for it) and one of them may raise an eyebrow and offer some advice. Listen to them, they're often testing the waters to see if you really are listening and have a desire to learn...

    Also remember, "Gunsmithing" is more than just machine work. Stock making/wood working, checkering, bedding, welding, brazing...these are all skills (to name a few) that a gunsmith may need to be proficient at...

    JMTCW...
     
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    I was at the same place 4 years ago, I only know what I have read and asked people. Yes I broke some tooling and my 26" barrel ended up being 25". I read a lot and got infront of the lathe. I have spent days cutting threads on scrap pieces becasue my threads were lacking in the begining. I have the small Grizzly gunsmith lathe and in the last year I have built some really good rifles for some friends. Keep at it and dont give up, we are all here to help and no question is a dumb question.

    Kc
     
    At the risk of sounding like a jerk...


    When standing in front of a piece of equipment, your a machinist.

    When at the bench, your a gunsmith.

    The relationship between the two is symbiant, but they stand alone as very different.

    It's important to understand this. As a machinist topics like surface speed, tool geometry, etc become very important. Learning and understanding it will save you a ton of money, time, and aggravation. The volume of resources available can be overwhelming. A great place to start is with a tooling manufacturing catalog. Speed and feed charts are often listed. You bounce that information off the type of material/hardness your working with. In the end you get a set of values that define how you setup a particular job.

    "Winging it" may get you a part. It may also get you a work hardened mess or a tool friction welded and broken down inside a hole. (Reboot, thaw out the Visa card, and start over...)

    There's a "presence" here that will be inclined to roll eyeballs and summarize what I'm saying as trivial and unnecessary. I'm not out to change the world. YOU asked so I'm talking to YOU. These companies spend billions researching and developing this information. It exists for a reason.

    Gunsmithing:

    It's tough to source solid information and much of it can only be learned by doing and/or bugging someone who's done it for a long time when questions surface. The real trick is getting them to talk. You must remember that most gunsmiths are mavericks and a bit compartmentalized. Many don't go out of their way to share what they perceive as "the right answer" to building a rifle, pistol, etc. It's a competitive trade and making a dollar is tough.

    Good luck on your quest. Read, then get to work. Don't get bogged down in a book or DVD. Experience will never be overshadowed by education.

    C.


    This is as real as it gets!!!!

    Wish I had this info back in 2003, when I transitioned form a cop to a full time custom knife maker! I only spent about $70,000.00 learning this lesson.
     
    The advice rendered here is priceless. I appreciate all the insight shared on this topic. In a perfect world, money would not be an issue, the family would have all we ever needed and I would be fully devoted to this trade. I'm passionate about firearms, to me it's a work of art. When I got out of the service I did the American thing and bought my first custom rifle. Looking at the detail envolved was truely inspiring. As far as a materialistic item, it was my most prized possession. I'm fairly young (30) so this trade has sometime to mature:)

    regards,

    K_4c
     
    I am by no means a gun smith. I can do a lot of gunsmith like things, but I am more of a machinist. I am pretty much self taught. I took exactly 2 classes at the local community college (the first was safety 101 and the other was speeds and feeds). I decided that I would be far more efficient to spend my money on buying my own machines than going through the program that would have cost well over $6k just for basic stuff. I stumbled through stuff for a while, then picked up some work. Found a bunch of killer deals on Craigslist and through friends. Ended up making quite a bit of some of the equipment that I have bought over the years. Now I have a cnc mill and I have taught myself how to run it, do 3D modeling and CAD work as well as run the CAM programs (all of which are legitimate programs not some pirated BS). All of the CNC stuff I taught myself since I bought my machine back in June/July. So really, all you have to do is put your mind to it and prepare to empty your wallet. There are a bunch of online tutorials and such to teach you how to run a lathe (not rocket surgery) and how to run a mill. At a Mfg I used to work for I would BS with the tool room/prototype machinist all the time. He knew his crap. He told me once that machining and milling in particular is all pretty easy. The tricky part is figuring out how to hold things. And that is the truth right there. I spend more time figuring out how to hold a part than actually machining it.

    On machinery, those 3-in-1's suck. They are mediocre at all the things they claim to do. Get a proper lathe with a through spindle of 1" or better (the more the better here trust me on this). A 13-14" swing lathe will get done just about anything and everything you could want to do smithing wise and then some. Depending on what area of the world you are in, you might be able to swing some pretty decent deals on a used lathe and probably have pretty good selection to choose from. We don't really have that luxury here in the PNW so I either had to drive to CA or just wait till something came along. If you are near a major city of industry the world is your oyster. But expect to put probably 2x what you paid on your lathe into tooling. No joke. Also, if you can get a lathe with a good, working DRO that is worth its weight in gold. DRO's are freaking great for speeding up repetitive operations and just getting things done quicker. Even more so on a mill.

    But I will 3rd or 4th Practicalmachinist.com. Great site to get some information from. That and google searches can turn up a bunch of stuff. And while gunsmiths can be quirky about relating information, I have yet to meet a machinist that didn't like to talk about what they do and give help and advice rather freely. Especially the older guys that spent much of their years running manual stuff. They can be vast repositories of very useful info.