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PRS Talk How does being in a “node” actually matter?

So 41.2 grains of H4340 in a Peterson case with a 140 hybrid should shoot pretty damn well in just about any match 6.5 chamber?
I’m running 41.0 grains of H4350 for Berger 140 Hybrids in a Hornady case with large rifle primers, and easily 0.3-0.4MOA at 2753 fps. Just load to the factory ammo length (about 2.81” COAL) and it works great for me. Just picked up the ATS tuner to make it even better.
 
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Im curious if anyone else has had this experience. I use what you are all describing as the OCW method. Load a batch of 50 or 100, shoot a bunch of groups, and take the load that produces the best group. I know its more wasteful compared to other methods, but I genuinely enjoy finding loads this way and makes for a good range day.

Now typically I chronograph after I pick my charge when I've loaded a batch to get velocities for dope charts and my ballistics app. Ive found that my best performing loads also chronograph very well. Is this a symptom of success or have I just been lucky?

Test it out.

Pick some random charge weight. Go chrono 20 rounds and shoot some groups with your standard jump.

See if the chrono numbers and group size are acceptable for you. If the chrono is good and group not as much, change seating depth.

Without knowing your methods, if I had to guess, most of your chrono numbers will be g2g and you just run the one that works with the barrel and that seating depth. I’d guess you could load most anything and have good chrono numbers and could adjust seating if you wanted to run at that speed. If you have a good powder drop and consistent neck tension, you’ll likely see good chrono numbers all around.
 
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Again, It makes it easier to think about as a wave. It’s obviously not something you can see or even something that has been measured as far as I know. Is it muzzle movement or is it vibrations disturbing the exiting bullet as they bounce back and forth from receiver to muzzle? My guess is vibrations. I don’t know. But I don’t think anyone contests that harmonics exist or that charge weight, seating depth, tuners, etc... can all affect the relationship between the bullet and the harmonics of the barrel. I’m not a physicist so I can’t tell you the exact mechanism not can I draw it.

If that visualization helps you, more power to you. My point is that thinking of it as a wave is the root of some deep-seated misconceptions about barrel behavior during firing. Muzzle movement is a combination of forced response and harmonic response (what you are referring to as vibrations) and it can be measured. I've done it and it does not follow a neat sine wave. His model is a bit crude, but you might be interested in this analysis, he does a good job of hitting the basics.
 
Again, not attempting to get into a debate if which method is better as this almost got into.

Just pointing out, make sure everything you do has an actual reason behind it. And if it doesn’t, and you still want to do it, that’s perfectly fine. Just know that’s what it is.

Several methods have been mentioned and even more variations of those methods have come up. So, if everything works, that points to a lot of it being inconsequential, as if it was consequential, a lot of those ways would end in disaster.

The question in the beginning is one you should ask yourself If you find yourself spending a ton of time going round and round in the loading room or if you find yourself chasing loads instead of practicing:

“If I just loaded this XXX load and doped it, would I miss because of the load?”
 
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Again, not attempting to get into a debate if which method is better as this almost got into.

Just pointing out, make sure everything you do has an actual reason behind it. And if it doesn’t, and you still want to do it, that’s perfectly fine. Just know that’s what it is.

Several methods have been mentioned and even more variations of those methods have come up. So, if everything works, that points to a lot of it being inconsequential, as if it was consequential, a lot of those ways would end in disaster.

The question in the beginning is one you should ask yourself If you find yourself spending a ton of time going round and round in the loading room or if you find yourself chasing loads instead of practicing:

“If I just loaded this XXX load and doped it, would I miss because of the load?”

and this is where the tweaking...adjusting...OCD or what ever you want to call it comes into play...theres a lot of ppl that "love" spending time in the loading room...which is fine...the problem is this time would be better spent practicing with a good load then it would be searching for the perfect load...i see a lot of guys that need more trigger time than they do in the loading room and shooting at 100yds testing different loads every time you go to the range IMHO is not practice.
 
If that visualization helps you, more power to you. My point is that thinking of it as a wave is the root of some deep-seated misconceptions about barrel behavior during firing. Muzzle movement is a combination of forced response and harmonic response (what you are referring to as vibrations) and it can be measured. I've done it and it does not follow a neat sine wave. His model is a bit crude, but you might be interested in this analysis, he does a good job of hitting the basics.
What did you measure this with? I’d love to see the data. What instruments did you use?
 
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My point is that guys who are suddenly experts on how people are wasting time doing OCW tests were on here talking about their own OCW tests and helping guys read their OCW tests a short time ago. Now some new info is out there and suddenly they have no idea what anyone would be looking for in an OCW or why they would want to do something so futile. I get that there’s a new school of thought and maybe it works great but that doesn’t make OCW invalid. You notice the prerequisite for the new line of thinking is you have to have absolutely exact powder charges and preferably buy enough of a lot of powder to last the whole barrel. That sounds like a good way to avoid a POI shift should you pick a random charge that’s on the edge of a POI shift. I’m fine with those “from a time before” loads that can go .1 and usually .2 or more up or down and still shoot the same.

I’ll agree that a lot of guys can’t shoot good enough and spend 4 range trips running OCWs and their targets are a mess that show nothing. This is apparent in a lot of the OCW targets that get posted here. But an OCW shot correctly has pretty much always shown me where I should be via POI in about 35 rounds. I’ve loaded for everything from a light weight hunting rifle to large and small frames to heavy barreled magnums. I always end up with good loads that hold up.

Let’s say maybe it’s not the POI data that matters. What have I lost? I got a good load and I would have shot the 35 rounds that were used in the OCW to find max charge and get velocity data anyway. Why not do it? Does it really make more sense to just pick a random charge? What are you gaining by doing that? My consequence for being wrong about OCW being useful is that there are no consequences. I shot 35 rounds that I would have shot anyway. The consequence for using a random charge(if you happen to land on the very edge of a shift and something changes) could be an unexplained POI shift that will make your tail irresistible to chase for an unknown amount of time. I don’t see the reason not to do an OCW if you can shoot good enough to read/believe the target. I just don’t see the huge benefit that’s being implied or how it’s so much better.

Obviously you can just pick a charge if you’re using a barrel tuner because you can change your harmonics via the tuner rather than the charge weight. But using a barrel tuner while also saying OCW is pointless makes no sense to me. That’s basically taking the position that a different charge weight won’t change the frequency/velocity of the harmonic waves in the the barrel. I’m no physicist but I’d imagine a different size explosion would create different harmonic waves in the barrel. If thats the case that means OCW tests are valid. And again- heavy, inherently accurate barrels are not good test subject to gather data on this because they will be affected much less by small changes in charge weight; especially in small calibers.

yup, that post was from early 2019...

and i never said i dont get what people are looking for...i have done it and done multiple variations of all it...ive been there with other people doing it...its right there in my post lol

i said it doesnt hold water like everyone thinks...me included before i dug into it more

ive used 2 chargemasters and 4-5 different powders in the same barrels...does that count as absolutely exact and enough of a lot to last a barrel?

why didnt you quote any of the posts thru 2020? like any of these?

things change, people get more data


or this one?


right at the top...below is exactly what i started doing about 5-6 months ago...in the years past, ive done all the standard accepted powder, jump, sorting, etc tests plenty of times...

didnt fit quite as well i guess
 
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What did you measure this with? I’d love to see the data. What instruments did you use?
30k-ish worth of laser vibrometers. Specifically two Keyence LK-H027 sensor heads connected to a Keyence LK-G5001V controller. I won't be posting data until after it's published, but I will say that the overall curve shape is similar to those in the analysis I linked above. The primary difference is the presence of some higher frequency content that his model doesn't capture.
 
30k-ish worth of laser vibrometers. Specifically two Keyence LK-H027 sensor heads connected to a Keyence LK-G5001V controller. I won't be posting data until after it's published, but I will say that the overall curve shape is similar to those in the analysis I linked above. The primary difference is the presence of some higher frequency content that his model doesn't capture.

This will be fascinating to read when it publishes. Please post a link at that time.

Have read an article recently where they used two polarized lenses at 90 degrees to measure barrel movement at the crown with a digital oscilloscope when adjusting a barrel tuner. It also showed that it is not a pure sinusoidal “wave”, and that there is a slow cycle (dominant mode caused by barrel whip) with a faster cycle superimposed on top that makes your groups open up and close in again; as you adjust seating depth (or tuner settings) to change bullet exit time. The slope of this curve determines the optimal bullet exit timing that would give you perfect positive compensation results for a particular distance.

The science appeared to work. Will see if i can find a link.
 
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30k-ish worth of laser vibrometers. Specifically two Keyence LK-H027 sensor heads connected to a Keyence LK-G5001V controller. I won't be posting data until after it's published, but I will say that the overall curve shape is similar to those in the analysis I linked above. The primary difference is the presence of some higher frequency content that his model doesn't capture.

It would be interesting to see how this would line up next to optimal barrel time data.
 
Would be interesting to see different people with vastly different reloading equipment and techniques work up a load test for the same rifle.
 
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This will be fascinating to read when is publishes. Please post a link at that time!

Have read an article recently where they used two polarized lenses at 90 degrees to measure barrel movement at the crown with a digital oscilloscope when adjusting a barrel tuner. It also showed that it is not a pure sinusoidal “wave”, and that there is a slow cycle (dominant mode caused by barrel whip) with a faster cycle superimposed on top that makes your groups open up and close in again; as you adjust seating depth (or tuner settings) to change bullet exit time. The slope of this curve determines the optimal bullet exit timing that would give you perfect positive compensation results for a particular distance.

The science appeared to work. Will see if i can find a link.

Will do, but it'll be a couple months at the earliest, journal review times tend to be slow. I would definitely be interested in a link to that article if you find it. What you're describing sounds right, the large curve is the forced response due to the pressure+projectile, the faster cycle is a harmonic response due to primer impulse.

It would be interesting to see how this would line up next to optimal barrel time data.

I will not deny that people have successfully used OBT methods to find accurate loads. I will also firmly stand by the statement that the original white paper the method is based on is predicated on some questionable calculations/assumptions. I think is Dthomas is right, solid reloading practice is all it really takes to get there and OBT is just added fluff and inefficiency.
 
Would be interesting to see different people with vastly different reloading equipment and techniques work up a load test for the same rifle.

there are 6 BRAs in our club...4 of them were out at my spot a few months ago...we had our shot marker set up at 600yds...my smith shot a 1/2" 5 shot group through the shot marker we all gave him 5 rounds that he shot through his gun...all 105 hybrids except mine 109 hybrid all different seating depths...2 running cci450s smith was running cciBR4s i run fed205M...3 running varget 1 running shooters world precision...1 running lapua brass 3 running peterson brass...all 3 loaded shot by my smith through his gun shot under 7/8s at 600yds...my load shot second best group with the highest ES.

my ammo was loaded on a dillon 550 with the dillon powder throw the others with FX120s and single stage presses...we were all pretty amazed that 4 different loads shot so well out of the same gun...next time we get together we are going to set up at 1083yds and do the same thing again and see how much difference there really is.
 
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Will do, but it'll be a couple months at the earliest, journal review times tend to be slow. I would definitely be interested in a link to that article if you find it. What you're describing sounds right, the large curve is the forced response due to the pressure+projectile, the faster cycle is a harmonic response due to primer impulse.



I will not deny that people have successfully used OBT methods to find accurate loads. I will also firmly stand by the statement that the original white paper the method is based on is predicated on some questionable calculations/assumptions. I think is Dthomas is right, solid reloading practice is all it really takes to get there and OBT is just added fluff and inefficiency.

I don’t want to absolutely say there isn’t a value to any load development methods. Especially when you’re shooting tiny things at longer distance.

But, I think that may fall more into “tuning” than actually developing a “node” in the older sense that you want to take your rifle and ammo different places and it perform similar enough not to be detrimental.

With modern chronos and such that we take with us, we have solved a lot of that unknown by checking the velocity at the new location. Especially for practical sized targets.

I can’t say for sure which parts absolutely do and don’t matter. But I’m fairly confident most of what many think matters.....doesn’t. Otherwise we would see much more failures in load development than we do.
 
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Look a node is not neccessary. But if you want tiny groups and low es and less flyers at long range I would do ladder test and find at least 3 nodes. Once you find your sweet spot all barrels you put on will be plus or minus .2 grain. I'm running bartlein barrels. So for me all my data is ran on a crono. Then find three nodes I like then they get 10 shot groups at 800 yards and then it's done again on a 1 or 2 more seperate days for the node I like. And once a proper node is established. You will start to notice a pattern at every yardage that you shoot no matter if its 100 yards or 1500 yards it will have same pattern. So my node shoots 1 hole most of the time and also prints 1 to 3" at 800 most of the time depending on if I have wind or not. Basically if you dont have your load super dialed you wont do well at elr matches. And if you shoot elr matches you will understand why a node is so important. Other wise you will have misses that should have been hits.
 
Look a node is not neccessary. But if you want tiny groups and low es and less flyers at long range I would do ladder test and find at least 3 nodes. Once you find your sweet spot all barrels you put on will be plus or minus .2 grain. I'm running bartlein barrels. So for me all my data is ran on a crono. Then find three nodes I like then they get 10 shot groups at 800 yards and then it's done again on a 1 or 2 more seperate days for the node I like. And once a proper node is established. You will start to notice a pattern at every yardage that you shoot no matter if its 100 yards or 1500 yards it will have same pattern. So my node shoots 1 hole most of the time and also prints 1 to 3" at 800 most of the time depending on if I have wind or not. Basically if you dont have your load super dialed you wont do well at elr matches. And if you shoot elr matches you will understand why a node is so important. Other wise you will have misses that should have been hits.

There’s a reason this thread is in the PRS section and not F class or ELR sections.

There’s also several things in your post that are easily refuted as I can shoot the same group sizes you’re claiming without any node being found.

Also, as far as ELR, it’s very simple on the chrono end. The ES is either small enough to maintain the group size you want, or it’s not. There’s other things that can be discussed via positive compensation and such, but that’s not what this thread is about.
 
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30k-ish worth of laser vibrometers. Specifically two Keyence LK-H027 sensor heads connected to a Keyence LK-G5001V controller. I won't be posting data until after it's published, but I will say that the overall curve shape is similar to those in the analysis I linked above. The primary difference is the presence of some higher frequency content that his model doesn't capture.
The higher frequency you are talking about is exactly what I mean by vibrations. As I said, in my mind it’s not a big wave in the barrel that you are looking to sync up woth. That’s just the easiest way to think about it. Im not talking about the bell swinging I’m talking about the bell ringing/vibrating.

Re: the site you linked with the models......I have a hard time believing the models mirror reality. The author said-

“The results showed that a more complex model was required to capture the dynamics of the complete rifle. There is a vertical plane of symmetry in the model and only motions in the vertical direction are calculated.”
If the dynamics of the whole rifle are not included and only vertical is calculated this is useless data about the forced response IMO. The missing parts/planes in the model would undoubtably affect the result of the vertical data. Every bit of the rifle is part of the equation and the reaction is dependent on the sum of its parts. Maybe I’m not understanding what he did. But the entire rifle and what it in interacting with would be important to take into account IMO.

Also he said this...
” But for the calculation, I did not include the brass case and merely applied the pressure to the bolt face and the chamber walls.”

Im no engineer but it seems like creating the explosion inside the barrel itself would greatly increase the deflection of the barrel. I would think the case directs the energy down the barrel and applies most of the energy to the horizontal plane in both directions. No case in the model puts all of the force on the barrel itself by forcing the chamber alone to stop the explosion and direct the energy down the barrel. So he is creating an explosion inside the chamber(the barrel) itself rather than inside the case. That’s not reality and it seems like a stretch. Removing the case would increase non-linear force in the barrel and cause a lot more vertical deflection, wouldn’t it?

Im not sure I read his result correctly, but did he conclude that the more weight that was added toward the end of the barrel the lower the POI moved? That seems pretty obvious if that’s the conclusion because, gravity.
 
There’s a reason this thread is in the PRS section and not F class or ELR sections.

There’s also several things in your post that are easily refuted as I can shoot the same group sizes you’re claiming without any node being found.

Also, as far as ELR, it’s very simple on the chrono end. The ES is either small enough to maintain the group size you want, or it’s not. There’s other things that can be discussed via positive compensation and such, but that’s not what this thread is about.
Yes that's true you can have es of 60 and still shoot the same hole at 100 yards but at distance is where your imperfections are printed
 
So, I went back and read most of this thread for a second time. Between the over my head (I'm not that smart) technical discussion of harmonics of steel tubes, and questionable hypothesis of what a "node" is, I don't think anyone has actually given an answer to the original question.
Or did I miss something?
 
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It boils down to this: shooters love black boxes. And as stated, most shooters are not engineers nor do they posses the background to evaluate the concepts that are regularly tossed around. Not trying to hurt feelings, but it’s reality.

Notice how there was not a single response, let alone a factual response to my previous post.

Looking for a flat spot in velocity (which is not a node), is now solved by using better reloading equipment.

If guys think the barrel “whip” or “harmonics” is causing the variances, why is it that such significant variances in barrel contour sand lengths still find similar (or same) loads?

Im curious to read the upcoming study that was previously discussed. However, without proof of the mechanics behind the process, we might be left with somewhat of an understanding of correlation - not causation.

It’s human nature to look for cause & effect. Unfortunately it’s also common to try and point the finger at the ONE cause. In a complex system it is much more plausible that numerous small factors compound and/or negate one another for each firing.
 
So, I went back and read most of this thread for a second time. Between the over my head (I'm not that smart) technical discussion of harmonics of steel tubes, and questionable hypothesis of what a "node" is, I don't think anyone has actually given an answer to the original question.
Or did I miss something?
Some say nodes referring to group size/POI and some say nodes referring to velocity. The traditional definition is referring to POI. That’s what kind of node I look for. I think the hunt for a velocity node is a more modern endeavor. That never made much sense to me because I never really saw flat spots in velocity that mattered. Consistent brass and neck tension is where you get good SD/ES numbers so you really don’t need a node if you’ve got that covered.
 
It boils down to this: shooters love black boxes. And as stated, most shooters are not engineers nor do they posses the background to evaluate the concepts that are regularly tossed around. Not trying to hurt feelings, but it’s reality.

Notice how there was not a single response, let alone a factual response to my previous post.

Looking for a flat spot in velocity (which is not a node), is now solved by using better reloading equipment.

If guys think the barrel “whip” or “harmonics” is causing the variances, why is it that such significant variances in barrel contour sand lengths still find similar (or same) loads?

Im curious to read the upcoming study that was previously discussed. However, without proof of the mechanics behind the process, we might be left with somewhat of an understanding of correlation - not causation.

It’s human nature to look for cause & effect. Unfortunately it’s also common to try and point the finger at the ONE cause. In a complex system it is much more plausible that numerous small factors compound and/or negate one another for each firing.
This goes to my previous post. In my mind POI moves around with variances due to vibration, not a large motion of the whole barrel. “Barrel whip” and harmonics are two different things IMO. If you had a barrel cantilevered off of a vice and you hit it with a hammer, the barrel would have two reactions. One is the physical movement of the barrel bouncing up, down, left, right. The second is vibration, the higher frequency that you can’t see but if you touched it you would feel. Yes the “whip” changes POI but I would think that would be so slow that changing seating depth .010 or powder charge .02 wouldn’t do anything. The vibration(harmonics) are faster and could cause a change in POI with .02 difference in charge or .01 seating depth. I would also theorize that these changes also go to “tune” and change the vibration itself. So either the bullet needs to exit at a certain point of the harmonic cycle, or changing the load/seating depth actually changes the harmonics and make the barrel happy. That’s my armchair engineer analysis and I get good loads easily with the theory so I’ll call it my truth until someone can actually measure it in real life. I don’t buy the models.
 
Will do, but it'll be a couple months at the earliest, journal review times tend to be slow. I would definitely be interested in a link to that article if you find it. What you're describing sounds right, the large curve is the forced response due to the pressure+projectile, the faster cycle is a harmonic response due to primer impulse.



I will not deny that people have successfully used OBT methods to find accurate loads. I will also firmly stand by the statement that the original white paper the method is based on is predicated on some questionable calculations/assumptions. I think is Dthomas is right, solid reloading practice is all it really takes to get there and OBT is just added fluff and inefficiency.

Study was done by Geoffrey Kolbe:


Rimfire 22LR fired twice with barrel tuner at different positions:

7848E713-BE7C-422D-920F-3F521581A083.jpeg


Muzzle position is measured at very high speed using an optical method, at microsecond resolution (every few millionth of a second).

Note that he has an optical sensor in place to detect exact bullet exit time, and the graphs were shifted to line up the bullet exit in each case (the dip in the red trace).

What is of interest here is that yes the barrel completes multiple vibration cycles before the bullet leaves (because 22LR is 3x slower than most centerfire calibers, there will be more cycles), but the muzzle position is far from a pure sine wave (the expected natural (harmonic) response of a steel pipe/beam or tuning fork that got a tap). Curve is much more complicated than that.

The two traces are somewhat similar, with the one blue line shifted to the right (due to barrel tuner moving out making the barrel vibrations ‘slower’), but they are not completely identical. Very many complex effects going on when a shot is fired, the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the barrel expands (inflates) behind the bullet due to pressure expanding the ID, and that pulse in the steel races to the muzzle end at the speed of sound in steel (many times faster than the peak speed of the bullet) and reflects multiple times between action and muzzle before the bullet leaves the barrel. The barrel ‘whips’ in 3D in a very complex pattern, affected by the vibrations in the stock and even the scope all interacting.

See Varmin Al’s simplified finite element simulation: Barrel, action, stock and scope all contribute and interact.

Also, positive compensation (PC) kicks in only when the bullet leaves the barrel when the muzzle end has the correct upward velocity (slope of the blue curve). Not all of these a-periodic cycles are wide enough to accomplish useful PC. But PC is not achieved at the peak or trough of the curve.

BTW: QuickLoads does not model this vibration aspect at all. Too complicated really to expect that. It tries to predict when the inflation pressure pulse will be at the muzzle end distorting the crown, which might also increase SD. Having the bullet exit at those time periods will be like shooting a damaged rifle with a badly mangled crown.

Kolbe could predict what bullet / barrel timing would give the smallest group due to positive compensation, and he was proved correct.

The theory actually worked.
 
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Kolbe shows a pretty noisy pattern of data for a single shot. He doesn’t show that the pattern repeats identically for multiple shots, which it would have to if you are going to magically line up your bullet movements with these vibrations. I bet it doesn’t.

Study was done by Geoffrey Kolbe:


Rimfire 22LR fired twice with barrel tuner at different positions:

View attachment 7453200

Muzzle position is measured at very high speed using an optical method, at microsecond resolution (every few millionth of a second).

Note that he has an optical sensor in place to detect exact bullet exit time, and the graphs were shifted to line up the bullet exit in each case (the dip in the red trace).

What is of interest here is that yes the barrel conoleted multiple vibratation cycles before the bullet leaves (because 22LR is 3x slower than most centerfire calibers), but the myzzle position is far from a pure sine wave (the expected natural (harmonic) response of a steel pipe/beam or tuning fork that got a tap). Much more complicated than that.

The two traces are somewhat similar, with the one blue line shifted to the right (due to barrel tuner moving out making the barrel vibrations ‘slower’), but they are not identical. Very many complex effects going on when a shot is fired, the bullet is accelerating down the barrel, the barrel expands behind the bullet due to pressure inflating the ID, and that pulse races to the muzzle end at the speed of sound in steel (many times faster than the peak speed of the bullet) and reflects multiple imes between action and muzzle before the bullet leaves the barrel, and the barrel ‘whips’ in 3D in a very complex pattern affected by the vibrations in the stock and even the scope.

See Varmin Al’s simplified finite element simulation: Barrel, action, stock and scope all contribute.

Also, positive compensation kicks in when the bullet leaves the barrel when the muzzle end has the correct upward velocity (slope of the blue curve). Not at the peak or trough of the curve. QuickLoads does not model this aspect correctly. Too complicated really.

He could predict what bullet / barrel timing would give the smallest group, and he was proved correct. The theory worked.
 
Yep, showing consistency is a thing if you’re looking to publish findings. I also find it interesting how/where the barreled action was clamped for the type of “testing” that was performed. The setup alone disallows any findings to translate to a typical barreled action in a stock/chassis.

And I’ll keep kicking this dead horse, the significant variance between contours/lengths would result in significant variance in frequency. So I’m honestly asking: how is it that we have “standard” loads that may only vary by 0.5% charge weight and/or seating depth with such a large variation in barrel geometry?
 
Kolbe shows a pretty noisy pattern of data for a single shot. He doesn’t show that the pattern repeats identically for multiple shots, which it would have to if you are going to magically line up your bullet movements with these vibrations. I bet it doesn’t.

Yes, this study has several limitations. Also explored new ground in multiple areas (Instrumentation, and predicting reliably where positive comp will appear), so it moved the science forward. His group size did come down nicely, so many shots were fired, but apparently not measured (or at least not published).

I guess the next research team now has to pick up the ball and run with it. 😊

Would have been useful to see how consistent positive compensation can be made to work, or not, and what the limitations are. Does variable firing pin fall make enough trouble to invalidate the shape of the curve...

IMHO: If the vibration pattern changed completely at every shot, PC would be a useless concept. Pretty sure less than perfectly free floated barrel that can touch the stock under some conditions or a loose action screw would be able to accomplish that. But: On well built rifles, I have seen PC ‘work’ too often to believe that it will be that different, but will admit PC is never as perfect as we would like it to be. But it sure helps at distance.

@Macht, if your superb vibrometer setup is still in place, maybe run 20 shots and compare, and then publish?
 
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We have skedaddled past my expertise as far as the barrel testing. I’ll be looking forward to any findings.
 
“The setup alone disallows any findings to translate to a typical barreled action in a stock/chassis.” His setup is over-simplified, but i am a little more optimistic about the results carrying over (at least to some extent) to a rifle and scope combo fired from a sand bag. 😊
 
We have skedaddled past my expertise as far as the barrel testing. I’ll be looking forward to any findings.

Apologies Mr. Thomas, did not mean to derail your thread. Kinda enjoyed the controversial slant!

IMHO barrel nodes where speed goes flat and SD goes to tiny numbers are rather flaky. Repeat three times and you may be surprised to see how much the curve can shift.

Positive Compensation, though not perfect in practice, is of practical advantage (and real) in my limited experience.

Will ‘cease and desist’ with this comment. 😊
 
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@Dthomas3523 curious to know at what level of precision each aspect of reloading needs to be and which are more critical than others for somone to simply pick a charge and run with it vs having to be "in the node"
 
@Dthomas3523 curious to know at what level of precision each aspect of reloading needs to be and which are more critical than others for somone to simply pick a charge and run with it vs having to be "in the node"

Thats a good question and point.

IMO, you need to be dropping powder as precise as possible. A chargemaster should be able to do it.

And have consistent neck tension across the board. Most are either not measuring or using calipers to measure (which isn’t a good way to measure) their neck tension. I use a pin gauge and spot check.

I think anyone dropping powder close to a kernel and using a mandrel to set consistent neck tension should be able to.
 
As long as using quality components:

Things that matter:

Consistent powder drop
Consistent neck tension
Consistent seating

Things that don’t matter:

Brass sorting
Primer pockets

Bullet sorting and such shouldn’t be needed(for prs) if using quality bullets like Berger. But if your group falls apart at distance and it’s not shooter error, it’s going to be an issue with your bullet BC not being consistent from bullet to bullet. If this happens, you’ll need to sort and/or tip, or buy better bullets.
 
Warning: wall of text incoming, responding to several different people.

@Precision Underground
Whether or not you have a hard time believing the model, the overall curve shape Al shows matches with both my experimental measurements and my own modeling. The magnitude of movement in the vertical plane is roughly an order of magnitude higher than that in the horizontal, so a simplification that allowed him to cut his model size in half is understandable. It's mostly significant because a symmetry condition meant he couldn't include rifling, which Eichhorst et al. showed to have a small but measurable effect on model accuracy.

As for inclusion of the case, your intuition is mostly incorrect. A small amount of energy does go into expanding the case to fully contact the chamber walls, but not an amount that has a significant impact on overall barrel response. Most researchers neglect the case during modeling for this reason.

Weight towards the end of the barrel only lowers the initial position and angle of the muzzle. That's not a guarantee that the muzzle will be lower during bullet exit, or that even if it does that the POI will be lower. Remember that there are 7 quantities of interest at exit (3 velocity components, pitch, yaw, pitch rate, and yaw rate) and the way those interact to produce a trajectory is not immediately intuitive.

@Secant
I started to type up a response to your question earlier, but decided I needed to give it more thought. I will freely state up front that my explanations at this point are nothing more than informed conjecture. First, the further I go in my research, the more I agree with the point Dthomas has been trying to make, that good reloading practices combined with quality components means that nearly any load will shoot well. If we accept that as true, a likely reason the loads end up similar between rifles is that they simply offer good velocity at a safe pressure.

Another possibility is that it has some relation to the % of case fill. Minnicino and Ritter from the Army Research Laboratory have shown that ullage in the case can be responsible for bullet tilt during firing, leading to asymmetric engraving and subsequent balloting. Maximizing case fill while maintaining safe pressures would therefore benefit accuracy regardless of barrel geometry.

I also have some ideas kicking around regarding the degree to which high frequency behavior is driven solely by the primer impulse, but I haven't quite got that reasoned through yet. That said, I think it's actually largely independent of geometry. I'll have to do some more work before drawing firmer conclusions.

@NamibHunter
Thanks for the link! That was an interesting read. I certainly fall into the category he talked about, someone just using experimental data to validate a model rather than using it as the main focus. I would say the obvious downside to his method is that relying on PC in that way only works at a given distance, something he repeatedly points out. That said, I think his methods were sound and he proved his point.

I will be doing more test firing, but I doubt I will ever do a full 20 shot string. Here are two plots of the same three test firings taken at a point 6 inches from the muzzle. I'm still having a few issues with the firing mechanism causing overall drift in the data (data series 3 gaining amplitude at the beginning), but you can see that even the higher frequency data is relatively consistent between shots. In this case bullet exit occurs at about 1.37ms.

6in_FullLength.png
6in_UntilExit.png
 
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“The setup alone disallows any findings to translate to a typical barreled action in a stock/chassis.” His setup is over-simplified, but i am a little more optimistic about the results carrying over (at least to some extent) to a rifle and scope combo fired from a sand bag. 😊
A barreled action with a free-floated barrel screwed into an action that connects to a stock via action screws will react differently compared to a barreled action that is clamped in the middle of the barrel with the action & remaining barrel cantilevered on opposite ends. So yes, the results won’t translate.

Testing requires well thought out & standardized specifications. The setup needs to be 100% repeatable, as do the results. As mentioned, graphing muzzle position for a single shot is anecdotal. Showing repeatable muzzle position would be the first step to show a correlation (not a causation).
 
Warning: wall of text incoming, responding to several different people.

@Precision Underground
Whether or not you have a hard time believing the model, the overall curve shape Al shows matches with both my experimental measurements and my own modeling. The magnitude of movement in the vertical plane is roughly an order of magnitude higher than that in the horizontal, so a simplification that allowed him to cut his model size in half is understandable. It's mostly significant because a symmetry condition meant he couldn't include rifling, which Eichhorst et al. showed to have a small but measurable effect on model accuracy.

As for inclusion of the case, your intuition is mostly incorrect. A small amount of energy does go into expanding the case to fully contact the chamber walls, but not an amount that has a significant impact on overall barrel response. Most researchers neglect the case during modeling for this reason.

Weight towards the end of the barrel only lowers the initial position and angle of the muzzle. That's not a guarantee that the muzzle will be lower during bullet exit, or that even if it does that the POI will be lower. Remember that there are 7 quantities of interest at exit (3 velocity components, pitch, yaw, pitch rate, and yaw rate) and the way those interact to produce a trajectory is not immediately intuitive.

@Secant
I started to type up a response to your question earlier, but decided I needed to give it more thought. I will freely state up front that my explanations at this point are nothing more than informed conjecture. First, the further I go in my research, the more I agree with the point Dthomas has been trying to make, that good reloading practices combined with quality components means that nearly any load will shoot well. If we accept that as true, a likely reason the loads end up similar between rifles is that they simply offer good velocity at a safe pressure.

Another possibility is that it has some relation to the % of case fill. Minnicino and Ritter from the Army Research Laboratory have shown that ullage in the case can be responsible for bullet tilt during firing, leading to asymmetric engraving and subsequent balloting. Maximizing case fill while maintaining safe pressures would therefore benefit accuracy regardless of barrel geometry.

I also have some ideas kicking around regarding the degree to which high frequency behavior is driven solely by the primer impulse, but I haven't quite got that reasoned through yet. That said, I think it's actually largely independent of geometry. I'll have to do some more work before drawing firmer conclusions.

@NamibHunter
Thanks for the link! That was an interesting read. I certainly fall into the category he talked about, someone just using experimental data to validate a model rather than using it as the main focus. I would say the obvious downside to his method is that relying on PC in that way only works at a given distance, something he repeatedly points out. That said, I think his methods were sound and he proved his point.

I will be doing more test firing, but I doubt I will ever do a full 20 shot string. Here are two plots of the same three test firings taken at a point 6 inches from the muzzle. I'm still having a few issues with the firing mechanism causing overall drift in the data (data series 3 gaining amplitude at the beginning), but you can see that even the higher frequency data is relatively consistent between shots. In this case bullet exit occurs at about 1.37ms.

View attachment 7453693View attachment 7453694
Did any of his real world test fires print higher with weight toward the muzzle by increasing dwell time? Maybe I missed it but all printed progressively lower depending on how much weight was placed toward the end of the barrel, right? IMO he hasn’t’ proved anything until the real world bullet impact follows the model through a change of direction.

I’d be curious how you and others are mounting the rifle for testing. Is it in a vice? Wouldn’t this skew the result by increasing the forced response? If it’s not it a vice how do you prove the movement is not from the movement of the entire rifle? IMO you would need a sensor mounted at the chamber and a sensor mounted at the muzzle so you could record the relationship between the two. Then you would know how much the barrel itself is deflecting under normal firing conditions. The big question(for looking at actual barrel deflection) is how much is the barrel bending, not how much the barrel is moving. How are you making sure that’s the data you are recording? Not being combative I’m genuinely curious.
 
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@Secant
I started to type up a response to your question earlier, but decided I needed to give it more thought. I will freely state up front that my explanations at this point are nothing more than informed conjecture. First, the further I go in my research, the more I agree with the point Dthomas has been trying to make, that good reloading practices combined with quality components means that nearly any load will shoot well. If we accept that as true, a likely reason the loads end up similar between rifles is that they simply offer good velocity at a safe pressure.

Another possibility is that it has some relation to the % of case fill. Minnicino and Ritter from the Army Research Laboratory have shown that ullage in the case can be responsible for bullet tilt during firing, leading to asymmetric engraving and subsequent balloting. Maximizing case fill while maintaining safe pressures would therefore benefit accuracy regardless of barrel geometry.

I also have some ideas kicking around regarding the degree to which high frequency behavior is driven solely by the primer impulse, but I haven't quite got that reasoned through yet. That said, I think it's actually largely independent of geometry. I'll have to do some more work before drawing firmer conclusions.
This isn’t me making a snarky comment or trying to be argumentative. Also, even though I’m responding to you, these comments aren’t necessarily directed at you.

If we are “tuning” to “harmonics” that precipitate from the firing pin striking the primer, here are some questions/thoughts: if the firing pin is consistent, then the effects may be immaterial since the bullet would leave the muzzle at the same relative position. If the spring is inconsistent, then we would need a constantly varying load to counter the spring’s inconsistency. There are so many actions out there today, and similar to my thoughts around barrels, all those varying actions are able to shoot the same (many times exact) load. Not to mention we would like see a larger variance from loads that are more precise. So it would seem to me that the action is playing a small role - this is in the context of practical rifle.

In terms of reloading equipment and components, I think everyone would agree that “quality” refers to the consistency or level of precision allowed by said equipment/components. So, let’s go full retard into a thought experiment: if every cartridge is loaded dead nuts, exactly the same (in every way), then the loading to the barrel would be the same, and ultimately every bullet will leave the barrel at the exact same time/position. So harmonics would have zero effect.

If we pretend that the theory behind harmonics is true, it is only important relative to the consistency of cartridges (ie quality of equipment, components, and practices) - I think everyone understands this. Now again, because this question has yet to be answered, when we see a second moment of area variance of 30%+ between barrels that are able to be “tuned” within a partial percentage of charge weight and/or searing depth, how can we say that barrel harmonics are a big player? Even carbon wrapped barrels that will have a different composite modulus of elasticity are able to shoot extremely similar/same exact loads as steel barrels.

Going back to those with suppressors, who has noticed an effect to POI or group size when the suppressor wrap has moved 1/4” or 1/2” or [fill in the blank]?
 
Did any of his real world test fires print higher with weight toward the muzzle by increasing dwell time? Maybe I missed it but all printed progressively lower depending on how much weight was placed toward the end of the barrel, right? IMO he hasn’t’ proved anything until the real world bullet impact follows the model through a change of direction.

I’d be curious how you and others are mounting the rifle for testing. Is it in a vice? Wouldn’t this skew the result by increasing the forced response? If it’s not it a vice how do you prove the movement is not from the movement of the entire rifle? IMO you would need a sensor mounted at the chamber and a sensor mounted at the muzzle so you could record the relationship between the two. Then you would know how much the barrel itself is deflecting under normal firing conditions. The big question(for looking at actual barrel deflection) is how much is the barrel bending, not how much the barrel is moving. How are you making sure that’s the data you are recording? Not being combative I’m genuinely curious.

I haven't gone back through all of his plots, but I found at least one pretty quickly where the POI ended up almost exactly the same with and without the weight. As a purely anecdotal aside, I've had a rifle where the POI moved up when I mounted a suppressor.

My mounting system is extremely minimal (rifle barely supported), exactly due to the things you mention. The biggest thing to remember is that this is happening extremely quickly, under 2 milliseconds. Movement of the rifle itself is very small, perhaps a 10th of an inch in rearward travel while the projectile is in bore, and any rigid body rotation is smaller yet. The other thing to keep in mind is that I'm trying to match boundary conditions to my model, where I also capture a combination of barrel and rifle motion. Separating barrel movement from the overall movement is counterproductive in my case. Finally, total firearm movement is what actually matters for dispersion, not the barrel alone. What I measure is almost exactly what the bullet would experience being fired from a free-recoil position at a PRS match.
 
If we are “tuning” to “harmonics” that precipitate from the firing pin striking the primer, here are some questions/thoughts: if the firing pin is consistent, then the effects may be immaterial since the bullet would leave the muzzle at the same relative position. If the spring is inconsistent, then we would need a constantly varying load to counter the spring’s inconsistency. There are so many actions out there today, and similar to my thoughts around barrels, all those varying actions are able to shoot the same (many times exact) load. Not to mention we would like see a larger variance from loads that are more precise. So it would seem to me that the action is playing a small role - this is in the context of practical rifle.
...
If we pretend that the theory behind harmonics is true, it is only important relative to the consistency of cartridges (ie quality of equipment, components, and practices) - I think everyone understands this. Now again, because this question has yet to be answered, when we see a second moment of area variance of 30%+ between barrels that are able to be “tuned” within a partial percentage of charge weight and/or searing depth, how can we say that barrel harmonics are a big player? Even carbon wrapped barrels that will have a different composite modulus of elasticity are able to shoot extremely similar/same exact loads as steel barrels.

Looking back at what I wrote, I wasn't very clear. What I'm referencing is the pressure impulse created by primer ignition, not the much smaller shock of firing pin impact. I've measured firing pin impact with no case, with a dead primer, and with a live primer in an empty case. In all three cases the vibrations produced are at a frequency 4-5x lower than the high frequency data visible in the data I posted above.

Based on my modeling and the Minnicino paper I referenced earlier, I'm confident that the high frequency behavior in the experimental data is driven by the interaction between the primer pulse, the propellant bed, and the projectile, taking place before ignition has even fully begun. The stress wave from this event travels at slightly below the nominal speed of sound in steel. At that point it doesn't matter what your area moment is, the wave doesn't care. Carbon may have an effect, but that's something I hope to get to in the future. Barrel length will affect how long it takes the wave to get to the muzzle, but my suspicion is that the fractional tuning you mention is all it takes to shift exit time relative to the position of that wave for any barrel length.

But I'll reiterate what I said before, I agree with the point of the thread: the effect of barrel harmonics is largely overstated for practical accuracy purposes.
 
I haven't gone back through all of his plots, but I found at least one pretty quickly where the POI ended up almost exactly the same with and without the weight. As a purely anecdotal aside, I've had a rifle where the POI moved up when I mounted a suppressor.

My mounting system is extremely minimal (rifle barely supported), exactly due to the things you mention. The biggest thing to remember is that this is happening extremely quickly, under 2 milliseconds. Movement of the rifle itself is very small, perhaps a 10th of an inch in rearward travel while the projectile is in bore, and any rigid body rotation is smaller yet. The other thing to keep in mind is that I'm trying to match boundary conditions to my model, where I also capture a combination of barrel and rifle motion. Separating barrel movement from the overall movement is counterproductive in my case. Finally, total firearm movement is what actually matters for dispersion, not the barrel alone. What I measure is almost exactly what the bullet would experience being fired from a free-recoil position at a PRS match.
Ok that makes more sense as to why I wasn’t following you. What I’m talking about is harmonics in the rifle itself. Recoil and total movement of the rifle are not part of the equation. Sure that matters but for the sake of understating harmonics in the sense of “tuning the rifle or the load”, recoil/movement of the whole rifle has to be removed.

This goes back to what I said before. A lot of people can’t shoot consistently enough to actually develop a load. As a shooter it’s up to you to give the rifle a consistent platform to interact with. When attempting to tune a load it is assumed that you’re giving the rifle the exact same platform with each shot. That way when you change charge weight or seating depth that’s the only thing that changes and you can attribute a change at the target to the load. IMO “harmonics” as it applies to a rifle is an occurrence that is self contained inside the rifle.

To measure or prove anything about harmonics you would have have data points referenced to the rifle itself. It sounds like you’re measuring rifle movement, not barrel movement or barrel vibration. Im not saying that’s not useful, it’s probably more useful that what I’m talking about for practical application. But to prove or understand what barrel harmonics look like we’d have to measure them in the rifle, not in space.
 
How is the second moment of area not relevant? That and modulus of elasticity will dictate deflection relative to the “loading”

What’s the formula you’re using to back up your observations of deflection?
 
How is the second moment of area not relevant? That and modulus of elasticity will dictate deflection relative to the “loading”

What’s the formula you’re using to back up your observations of deflection?

Modulus is not enough different between the various barrel steels to be significant. Second moment would affect the amplitude, but not the frequency. This also has the potential to explain why larger contour barrels are less sensitive in general.

I'm not using a formula, it's a fully 3D finite element model.
 
Ok that makes more sense as to why I wasn’t following you. What I’m talking about is harmonics in the rifle itself. Recoil and total movement of the rifle are not part of the equation. Sure that matters but for the sake of understating harmonics in the sense of “tuning the rifle or the load”, recoil/movement of the whole rifle has to be removed.

This goes back to what I said before. A lot of people can’t shoot consistently enough to actually develop a load. As a shooter it’s up to you to give the rifle a consistent platform to interact with. When attempting to tune a load it is assumed that you’re giving the rifle the exact same platform with each shot. That way when you change charge weight or seating depth that’s the only thing that changes and you can attribute a change at the target to the load. IMO “harmonics” as it applies to a rifle is an occurrence that is self contained inside the rifle.

To measure or prove anything about harmonics you would have have data points referenced to the rifle itself. It sounds like you’re measuring rifle movement, not barrel movement or barrel vibration. Im not saying that’s not useful, it’s probably more useful that what I’m talking about for practical application. But to prove or understand what barrel harmonics look like we’d have to measure them in the rifle, not in space.

First off, the response of the barrel isn't somehow isolated from the behavior of the system. Hypothetically, if the gun movement was significant enough to matter, it would also change when you changed your load and it would would have as much impact on what the bullet "sees" as a change in barrel motion alone.
Second, you ignored what I said about how little rigid body movement exists. The point of a validated model is that it allows you to investigate things that are more difficult to measure directly. It's trivial in the model to subtract rigid body movement from the barrel movement, and it simply doesn't matter much at all.

We don't have to "prove" or wonder what barrel "harmonics" look like, people have been measuring barrel movement in one way or another for almost 100 years. This isn't black magic, it just happens that your average shooter doesn't bother to read scientific journals and conference proceedings where these things are published.
 
All that said, I think I'll leave it here to prevent the thread being even further de-railed. Thanks for all the discussion, it's been good!
 
Modulus is not enough different between the various barrel steels to be significant. Second moment would affect the amplitude, but not the frequency. This also has the potential to explain why larger contour barrels are less sensitive in general.

I'm not using a formula, it's a fully 3D finite element model.
No offense man, but of course you’re using a formula. A stiffness matrix is a primary component of an Finite Element Analysis. I’ve had to set up and solve loads of these by hand back in my college days. Modulus of elasticity and second moment of area are primary driving factors in your stiffness matrix.

I have to ask, have you ever solved an FEA by hand - no computer ?
 
.

How many of those loads are going to bughole, and how many are going to shoot sub par? Are there any POI shifts taking place in that charge range? Will there be a shift when it gets hot or cold?

Why would you not want to check to find out?

Or are you going to rely on seating depth to tighten up the larger groups and call it good?
I bet that he’s gonna dial his barrel tuner to get good groups and drive on.
 
I’m thinking I’m the only one still interested in this thread, haha. But in case others care, here’s a example of a stiffness matrix, which is a component to an FEA. E is modulus of elasticity & I is the area moment of inertia.....this takes me back, LOL.

1603677065285.png
 
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First off, the response of the barrel isn't somehow isolated from the behavior of the system. Hypothetically, if the gun movement was significant enough to matter, it would also change when you changed your load and it would would have as much impact on what the bullet "sees" as a change in barrel motion alone.
Second, you ignored what I said about how little rigid body movement exists. The point of a validated model is that it allows you to investigate things that are more difficult to measure directly. It's trivial in the model to subtract rigid body movement from the barrel movement, and it simply doesn't matter much at all.

We don't have to "prove" or wonder what barrel "harmonics" look like, people have been measuring barrel movement in one way or another for almost 100 years. This isn't black magic, it just happens that your average shooter doesn't bother to read scientific journals and conference proceedings where these things are published.
Have you seen data showing disturbances in the barrel itself, void of any outside noise from recoil or movement of the rifle? To me this what “harmonics” generally refers to- disturbances of some kind within the rifle system itself. This is what I thought you were posting before but you’ve explained that your measuring movement of the entire system. Of course movement of the entire rifle matters on target. But when attempting to describe/measure harmonics(in the sense that they are approached in load development) you would need to isolate disturbances within the barrel itself. Please post what you have seen/read that shows this. That’s not an Internet challenge I genuinely want to see the data.