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How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

BigBrother

BigBrother

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 27, 2007
687
5
New England
Hey all- don't wanna sound like a huge fanboy or internet commando here, but I was reading the recent thread on AF getting better combat training, and it reminded me of a long standing question I've had about SEAL training...

What's always stood out for me is how completely out of its element the SEAL program seems to be within the Navy. Here you have a service almost entirely divorced from ground infantry, training some of the most elite ground infantry in the armed forces.

Had the normal progression/structure been something like Marine->Recon Marine->SEAL it would make plenty of sense to me, but instead, here you have these guys operating completely on an island onto themselves - there are no other MOSes I can think of in the Navy that approach the necessary skillset.

Now I know they cross train in a lot of the specialized schools (jump, sniper, etc.), but I still find it bizarre that these guys are coming up to do the same style of work as Army and Marine infantry, in such a secluded and cordoned off little branch of the Navy.

Put in the broadest way, how did a bunch of sailors learn how to shoot?
smile.gif


Help fill me in?
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

MOS are called rates in the navy. The rate you are referring to is known as ATF-SO, more commonly SO and this is where I bite my tongue before I say something nasty. I'll forward this to some one on the hide and let him answer it if he feels like it. He may have a tad more knowledge than me.


Oh great now I got blood and saliva all over my pj's.

 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Hope it wasn't going to be at me
smile.gif
. I'm completely unknowledgeable in this and am looking for info, really that's it. I have no doubt my terminology is off.

Everyone learns from the beginning at some point!
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Thanks for the info.

As a follow up, does anyone know if there's ever cross-pollination between the Corps and the SEALs in training?

I guess the crux of what I'm getting at is this- you have the Navy spending a lot of resources and time in training very specific capabilities. It's always seemed odd to me that there's so little (at least perceived) overlap between the two. In my mind, it's akin to a medical school training two sets of doctors on two different campuses with the same core knowledge and yet no travel or communication between the two. Sure one group might go off to become surgeons while the other are general practitioners, but you get my drift.

Or am I wrong here?
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

The thing I never understood is; There is no question SEALS are top of the line. I have a few friends in now and have asked them the same question.The men going to BUDS are in top shape, wanting to be a gunfighter, and have their mind set for it. Now they might not all make it most dont but this is not to say they wouldn't make a better that average group of soldiers. Yet the Navy puts them back in the normal jobs. Why? These men if like the Army could be Rangers or something to that effect. It seams like wasted fighting men to me. No disrespect at all. the SEAL instructors are still good to these men who cant make it and they have the potential to make a fine soldier. Why not use them?
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

I can answer a question or two being a former squid myself. If you fail out of BUDS you go back to your job / Rate that you went to school for, and either finish your time in service, and while doing so try again to go through BUDS, or cross rate to a job that is more weapon oriented or works with these guys,say a Boatswains Mate attached to a Small Boat Unit. When I was in, 95-99 in order to have the option to go SEAL, you were only allowed to be in a certain job class / rate. Why, becasue the Navy just does, is it a waist, yep. If I am correct, SEAL and RECON guys may go through the same jump school and dive school. I know that all branches send thier Spec Ops that qulify through HALO becasue thier is only one school for that. Other than that I was just a shoe and not spec ops. Maybe thier is a legit one or two on the hide somewhere. Oh and by the way just because your a squid dont mean you cant shoot lol.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

BB,

One assumption you want to avoid is comparing SEALs to standard Army and USMC infantry units. They aren't, and their roles are quite dissimilar. SOF units have particular skill sets and they are trained extensively to excel in those roles. There's a lot of misconceptions of the roles people play downrange, thus the controversies surrounding direct action responsibilities, unconventional warfare, special recon, et al.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Yes you do sound like an internet geek fanboy.

Get off your thread reading ass, open up a can of man, and join a branch of service for yourself.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Take it easy there stud. A guy is free to ask a question and I happen to think it is a relavent question as well. I'm in the service and have worked with some SEALs. While I in no way doubt their knowledge, training or abilities I have wondered this out of curiosity.

Telling him to join up just to answer one question is f'in stupid. I'd like to know more about astronauts but I have no interest in joining NASA. Guess I'm not allowed to ask anyone questions about it huh?

To those have have offered productive responses, thanks for the info and clarification; much appreciated.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BB,

One assumption you want to avoid is comparing SEALs to standard Army and USMC infantry units. They aren't, and their roles are quite dissimilar. SOF units have particular skill sets and they are trained extensively to excel in those roles. There's a lot of misconceptions of the roles people play downrange, thus the controversies surrounding direct action responsibilities, unconventional warfare, special recon, et al. </div></div>

Right, that's why I used the med school/surgeon/general practitioner analogy. I'm not assuming that "Since Marines are trained in ground combat and SEALs are trained in ground combat - clearly they're the same thing".

But look at an analogy in the Air Force - take a C-130 pilot and an F-15 pilot. Highly different roles (probably even more so than the difference between Marines and SEALs I'm talking about, but no matter). I have to assume that at some point in the beginning all pilots-to-be are in the same classrooms, learning the same fundamentals, flying the same trainers.

Again, it just seems odd to me that in the case with the Navy, you'd have training and development going on constantly for ground combat in one place, and then in another. Like tsprink said, seems like a waste. If not cross-training, I'd at least expect BUD/S dropouts to be given the option to go into the Corps, or, vice versa, for extremely motivated Marines to try out for BUD/S. But, I suppose, since when is the military logical, right?

Oh and thanks for the defense Lightscout. I chuckled good and well at the astronaut response
smile.gif
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Consider this from another direction.

SEAL Teams and SFOD-Delta, i.e., CAG, or whatever the current nom de guerre for them is, have somewhat similar functions.

Yet BUDS and Delta selection are oriented toward selecting substantially different types of operators.

What the SEALs do works for them. While there are inevitably overlaps in the skillsets of any group of people who engage in ground combat, ultimately they are going to train to different standards.

At one time, mankind had very limited skillsets, i.e., hunting, fishing, gathering, and then primitive agriculture - and also a very low level of civilization and technology.

Mankind has advanced in civilization and technology through specialization. It's a <span style="font-style: italic">good</span> thing, as Martha Stewart would say.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Well, the military never says "common sense tells us to..." Just the nature of the beast. I'm sure the big issue of going from BUD/S to the USMC is simply going to be a manning issue. That dude signed on to be a squid, the Navy is counting on him to do whatever job he has, and they're not in the business of catering to people's needs. Kind of sucks, but that's the way the military is. I had a long talk with one of my soldiers this morning about how we're all at the discretion of the branch we signed up with. It's just a fact of life.

Lindy's analogy is a really good one. While I think we should avoid going into specifics about tier 1 units, the roles Lindy referred to give you a good reference point for contrasting the various units. The trick to teaching squids to shoot is... give them good courses and cases of ammo. Pretty much like you'd teach any other group.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, the military never says "common sense tells us to..." </div></div>

Lord, isn't <span style="font-weight: bold">that</span> the truth. LOL!
laugh.gif
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Watch the history channel - if I'm not mistaken SEAL came from navy divers that were qualified for diving and ended up taking on more roles.

They still dive first and foremost so in my mind they are just a bad-ass version of a navy diver...(Said with all due respect)
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Yes, they originated from the UDT's and progressed to modern day SEALs.

I guess they figured the UDT's were already infiltrating to clear the path for the beach landings, why not send them a bit further.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

I'm a bit busy at the moment but will expand on this thread a bit in a couple days mabye learn you fellas some stuff
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watch the history channel - if I'm not mistaken SEAL came from navy divers that were qualified for diving and ended up taking on more roles.

They still dive first and foremost so in my mind they are just a bad-ass version of a navy diver...(Said with all due respect) </div></div>


UDT: Underwater demolition teams, WWII. Not "navy diver"---------->January 1 1962 John F. Kennedy
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a bit busy at the moment but will expand on this thread a bit in a couple days mabye learn you fellas some stuff </div></div>

Thanks BigJoe. If you're gonna chime in, let me refine a little what I was looking for -

Not the whole history of formation - I read plenty on that a while ago.

More so, I'm wondering how the knowledge and training in ground combat came about in a service that didn't really have much of it before. As a simple example, did they look to the Corps for marksmanship, or develop their own program? And today, is their basic marksmanship training still just an unbroken line of SEAL instructors->SEALs or is there outside influence (besides Sniper school)?

Obviously given this site and my membership here my interest is slanted toward the shooting disciplines, but I'm curious about the history across their entire spectrum of ground infantry training, and whether or not they adopted from other services or started from scratch.

Thanks.

 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

I can shed some light on this. As somebody had mentioned, a SEAL is not their primary job description although that's the role they primarily fill. The Navy does this not only with SEALS but with other specialties such as Aircrewman/SAR and a few others. SEALS consist of Corpsman, Boatswains Mates, Radioman, etc...essentially normal squids that went on to a specialty. It can be pulled off because the Navy does more than drive boats.

Most associate aircraft with the airforce but the Navy has quite a capable air force of its own. I was an Aircrewman/Flight Engineer but my primary job (which I never performed) was as an aircraft mechanic. The last 1/3 of my career I flew what were essentially the Navy's version of a spy plane (EP3's).

Water borne training is the Navy's forte so it's quite easy to train SEALS given what the Navy does, and some of the training pipelines actually cross paths. We carried SEALS on occasion and kicked them out of our planes during low-level insertions. As such we went through SERE with them since we both were in a position for capture. We received similar water-borne training (albiet not quite as harsh) but it was more specialized to our task (survival related since we flew over water)

It's not really that complex...they train their own and experience is passed on from one generation to the next. The last 3 years before I retired I was at a training command passing on my skills to the next generation, just as the SEALS do...and all service branches do.

With SEAL training, the shooting/infantry part is likely the easiest part. Its the waterborne training that separates the men from the boys.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Interesting. Thank you.

Any others with similar backgrounds- I'd love to hear about it.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

ok SEAL tactics are unlike larger marine forces and army forces due to the numbers in which operate. tactics for a marine battalion are not the same as those of a 5 man fire team or a 2 man shooter/ spotter combo. most tactics are just modifications of tactics learned in vietnam, gulf war, panama, iraq, afganistan, etc.

SEAL schools are quickly becoming all in house, in the way of internal sniper school, breacher, comms, freefall (no longer go to army), etc.

ALSO there is now a SO rating so people enter the navy and go to a SEAL prep school so to speak before coming to bud/s. the attrition rate is still the same no matter who the higher ups think will make it or not. its really just a matter of wanting to be there or not.

but yes the teams are definately seperate from the rest of the navy although the big fleet tries they damnest to remind them they are still part of the same team
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...although the big fleet tries they damnest to remind them they are still part of the same team </div></div>

Although you have to admit that this was largely an "east coast" mentality... At least when I served. Almost like 2 different Navies. I was mostly a west coast guy and out there the different naval communities seemed to operate with way more autonomy. When I went east for my last tour...OH MY FREAKIN GOD...what a bunch of butt snorkeling yes men.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Robot Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
grin.gif
Nobody will ever mistake Coronado for 32nd street. LOL </div></div>

LOL you got that right. It always amazed me that the closer you got to DC, the brass seemed to suffer from osteoperosis of the spine.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

I was a bit of a problem child and I did things out west (and got caught) that would have gotten me court martialed and shot back east. Luckily by the time I went east I was older, wiser and had calmed down a bit. Now that I think about it...they may have sent me out there on purpose...to hide me from society LOL
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

just to add to this conversation - since OIF and OEF the Black OPS side of the house (SEALS, Delta, Ranger's) have been doing a lot of the same tasks and are operating in the same Task Forces: Their job is High Value Targeting (HVT's). The White SOF (ODA's) have been given the role of some targeting but have turned to their tradition role of trainer and have been incorporating into Iraq and Afghan SOF elements. The roles of the services SPECOPS warriors have blurred from traditional training such a water insertions to HVT targeting. This too has caused the SPECOPS world to rethink their training. The services SPECOPS guys have had years of real world operations that have given them a breadth of knowledge to develop their own in-house training.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

well put JSTARs and yeah axe your right but the diference between east and west coast is a whole diferent conversation all together.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

My opinion, as a former BUD/S med drop, and now aviation Lt.

BUD/S sucks, there's no ifs, ands, and buts. You can rotate the instructors around, or even not put any in them, there's still cold water, O course, logs, and boats. Oh my God, the boats. I don't even hang around on beaches anymore, I'm still utterly traumatized.

I can understand why BUD/S is hard, and must be. The Navy isn't a combat related force, there's no infantry, Rangers, Airborne, etc etc to select for a highly mobile, adaptive, special operations unit. So they must grow and nurture their own, and do their own program.

I've met some of the smartest, talented, successful, educated dudes at BUD/S. These were dudes with masters, collegiate athletes, even doctors, who showed up as E-3s. Some of them graduated first in their class in A-School and got automatic E-4.

What did the Navy do to the guys who didn't make it? Absolutely nothing. The Chief CCC at the time took pride of the fact and addressed my class that he considered himself a travel agent, he loves to "hook up guys with pleasure cruises". He quickly shot down and hopes for OCS for the college grads, pulling the ever so used "apply at your next command" card.

So when a college grad E-3 shows up at his first boat, and all of his fellow "shipmates" play pranks on him, and his Chief tells him to swab decks and clean shitters all day long, that sucks. It's a serious adjustment issue to that guy, because he's way overqualified for what he's doing.

When you leave BUD/S you go to a place called X-Division, where all the drops go. The First and Second Class Petty Officers in charge of X-Div ordering these guys around were among the nastiest, fattiest, filthiest dude's i've ever experienced in the Navy. The LPO went to mast for pornography over govt email, but that's another story.

I still had friends who were trapped in the Fleet, cleaning shitters, chipping paint. Some of them persevered and went back to BUD/S, and made it. Others got out early, faking "personality disorder". Others stayed and went on to have successful careers, a few of them got their commissions as officers.

One of my best friend who lost his SEAL Challenge Contract and had to spend 5 years as an AW2 in a P-3 squadron finally got his shot, and finished Hell Week yesterday. Another made of mine got out early as an HN Corpsman, became a Marine Corps officer, then did Selection for a National Guard SF unit and passed.

The Navy offered me a chance to fly. I took at it, rolled with it, got Jets. Got extra av maintenance Officer training on the side. Regret nothing.

P.S. I understand X-Division is gone. Good riddance.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

The Navy is "nice" like that Lt. They would screw the SAR/Aircrew drops the same way. Good to see you turned it around to your advantage. It's one thing to do it to a quitter, but doing it to the med/injury drops was a bit over the top IMO.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

yeah treated the same sadly. its the price paid i think to join the navy knowing what will happen to you if you don't make it through bud/s. motivation for some i'm sure who go back not wanting to go back to the fleet.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah treated the same sadly. its the price paid i think to join the navy knowing what will happen to you if you don't make it through bud/s. motivation for some i'm sure who go back not wanting to go back to the fleet. </div></div>

Even the fear of this happening screws a lot of guys over with lesser injuries that make it through. I tweaked my knee pretty good once. For fear of losing my flight status I sucked it up and never told anyone. I'm paying for that decision today and there are certain times of the year when it feels like I have broken glass in my knee.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

oh don't get me wrong, i have broke my back, and had a dive related heart procedure trust me i know about injury
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

Chief,

The reality is that there will be a lot of quitters from BUD/S. It's not for everyone.

But when I observe overweight Fleeters who make fun of BUD/S drops by saying "Ding! Ding! Ding!" to mimic The Bell, using the "So Solly <span style="font-style: italic">Shipmate</span> (which all Navy people know is a polite term for 'dumbass'), you signed on the dotted line. " card when these same people try to advance their career beyond that of chipping paint, dump rotting milk and cookie crumbs on a dude's rack because he's used to being "Wet and Sandy", among other cruel and tragic shenanigans . . . I find it infuriating.

They've had the balls to try, and that says a lot more then the guys who talk shit but <span style="font-style: italic">will never show up</span>.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nickh46</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...They've had the balls to try, and that says a lot more then the guys who talk shit but <span style="font-style: italic">will never show up</span>. </div></div>
...good point and I agree, it does take a sack to do it in the 1st place. "Quitter" in the context of my post, and I'm sure you know the type, are the guys that don't even give it a college try for fear of breaking a nail or losing out on a few hours beauty sleep.

The grim reality of BUDS isn't a secret to those that sign up. They know the horror stories going in. The same can be said for nukes, SAR, and FE...training pipelines with similarly, but not quite as high attrition rates. I was a FE course director and at one point had an attrition rate above 50%. However we never made fun of the drops and our drops were held in aviation in many cases (if possible)since they were already trained in the rates.

Believe me, I know the fleet types you speak of and they're simply not in the same league as the vast majority of you guys.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

i'll tell you one thing though, there must be a lot of injuries cuz i swear EVERY person i talk to who has went to bud/s and didn't make it says they got hurt, only about 1 in a 100 say they quit. I always get the

"yeah i went to bud/s, i got shin splints so i got kicked out" or something similar. i feel bad for the real injured guys but i think playing the injured card when you quit is spineless. guess what its not for everyone you don't have to lie, just say you didn't want to do it.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'll tell you one thing though, there must be a lot of injuries cuz i swear EVERY person i talk to who has went to bud/s and didn't make it says they got hurt, only about 1 in a 100 say they quit. I always get the

"yeah i went to bud/s, i got shin splints so i got kicked out" or something similar. i feel bad for the real injured guys but i think playing the injured card when you quit is spineless. guess what its not for everyone you don't have to lie, just say you didn't want to do it. </div></div>
+1
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i feel bad for the real injured guys but i think playing the injured card when you quit is spineless. guess what its not for everyone you don't have to lie, just say you didn't want to do it. </div></div>

If they do that they cant wear their pretty medals and their dress blues every where they go and tell their war stories to everyone who will listen and to everyone who doesnt know better and to everyone who wont grab them by the tongue and balls. BigJoe, you and I have had this convo on another thread about some squid brothers go out in town and brag about "their days in the teams". A swift what was your class number? Tell me about your class dues? or how often did you sand down your helmet will give them away. That and the look on their face when you explode after eavesdropping for about half an hour often times gives them away.

I'll STFU now and let you guys get back to giving this guy some more useful info on the matter at hand.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

yep, just one of those things you have to deal with i guess. its a lot like those highschool athletes "i could've been pro had i not thrown out my shoulder" lol
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

I think I can shed a bit of light on this for you BigBrother, if there is any to shed that is! I'm jumping in here only because I have a bit of experience working with SEALs. I have operated with them during training missions as well as combat missions, trained them at both the Marine Corps Scout/Sniper School and the NSW Sniper School. I've also worked side-by-side with former SEAL operators during security contractor operations.

You are correct in the observation that SEALs appear to be wholly out of their element in the realm of ground combat operations. This is true in some senses, and in others, not. The key phrase here "a jack of all trades, master of none" rears it's head in all it's irony. SEALs did indeed originate from UDTs in WWII, clearing obstacles from hostile beach heads using explosive charges. As time and tactics progressed the SEALs adapted their training as missions changed. In Vietnam the SEALs performed missions very similar to the Army's LRRPs, only using their water expertise to their advantage operating in the mangroves of the river deltas.

What I'm getting at is that as enemy tactics, techniques and proficiencies change we, as a collective military might, have to change as well if we want to stay in the fight. SEALs continued to morph as they attempted to get the missions presented to them. You have to sell yourself in the military if you want the mission, even in terms of special ops. You have to prove that you can get the job done to the upper levels of command. I've seen SEALs fired by MEU commanders because they botched training missions. I've seen it happen with Marines as well.

Modern day SEALs are the result of a constantly changing battlefield. Are they seemingly out of their element in the deserts and mountains of Afghanistan? If you say yes, then so are the Marines; the pioneers of the amphibious assault. It all stems from being able to adapt, improvise and overcome.

The SEALs sent their sniper candidates to the Marine Corps Scout/Sniper School for many years while they formulated their own NSW Sniper School. They knew that in the realm of sniping, they were not wholly proficient, so they sent their shooters to a school that was highly and historically capable of producing the finest sniper in the world. Those shooters who graduated went on to operate and learn through experience, and then went to the NSW sniper school as instructors to pass on that knowledge, hence giving that new school a solid foundation to build on.

I would have to venture to say that all military units have been victims of the "jack of all trades, master of none" adage. You do your best to adapt and become proficient on a very challenging and very dynamic battlefield.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

well put, i have to say the jack of all trades thing bites you in the ass sometimes too, being if you do FID and do it well then thats what you get stuck doin, kinda like PSD, etc. are those missions you want to do? FUCK NO, but its work. there are a lot of people out there wanting those kinetic operations and only so many to go around, so like woj said you adapt to how you can have the greatest impact on the battle field.
 
Re: How Navy supplements its knowledge for SEALs (?)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tsprink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing I never understood is; There is no question SEALS are top of the line. I have a few friends in now and have asked them the same question.The men going to BUDS are in top shape, wanting to be a gunfighter, and have their mind set for it. Now they might not all make it most dont but this is not to say they wouldn't make a better that average group of soldiers. Yet the Navy puts them back in the normal jobs. Why? These men if like the Army could be Rangers or something to that effect. It seams like wasted fighting men to me. No disrespect at all. the SEAL instructors are still good to these men who cant make it and they have the potential to make a fine soldier. Why not use them? </div></div>

Well I can tell you from experience that alot of the "BUDs DUDs" dont just go back to the big fleet and tred water. Alot of them end up at Panama City and then Eglin AFB for about 10-12 months. Then they end up out in the sand box taking care of IEDs and caches.
 
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