not sure if hes been mentioned or not, but i would contact D. Wilson hes repaired far worse things. www.dwilsonmfg.com is his link on his instagram
- Thread starter Chicory01
- Start date
Edited to cross out. I was wrong.
How did the founding fathers do pin n’ welds back in the day 
You are allowed to assemble it, as the "maker". Once its completed, nothing inside can be changed.
You are only allowed to repair, you cannot replace. Boring baffles entirely, so as to become spacers; cutting clips deeper; over boring your cones; etc.
The permission slip granted to you by the powers that be, allows you to assemble 1 can, 1 time. An SOT has to do any recore you desired.
Would replacing only the baffles constitute a “repair” on the registered item? Since the baffle is not an individual registered item but a part of the whole.
Example might be a barrel change on a legally owned machine gun, or is that illegal also?
The baffles are a "device to muffle the report of a firearm", which, by definition, makes them a "suppressor part". There are folks currently trying to force registration of tube AND baffles.
On an MG; it is the receiver that is registered, not the barrel. The barrel does not make it go pew pew pew.
I am not a lawyer, and do not pretend to be one. Just a guy that likes my doors working, and my dogs breathing.
Modular suppressors have "extensions" screw on the end of a suppressor and are a "device to muffle the report of a firearm" so by definition they are...... not suppressor parts.
On an SBR, the firearm is registered but the lower is what's serialized. Does replacing a barrel/trigger/upper require an SOT? You are altering an SBR significantly more than you would a suppressor...
Basically BATFE makes up shit as they go. There is no legal black and white. Your dog is always at risk.
So I agree with the ATF audibles. Not cool at all. Modular is a gray area also; and as such, is supposed to only fit its host tube, and would have no way of attaching to a firearm separately. Or have any remaining "parts" that don't fit in the completed assembly. I do not begin to condone modular, but they're built often.
Whether or not its "legal", it has seemingly been "ok" to swap uppers, but you're not supposed to go over the registered OAL. And if its your barrel thats caliber marked, not your receiver, you might just be making a boo boo by removing it. Again, back to the not cool audible.
Also, in terms of modulars, MANUFACTURERS may have different standard/legal obligations, than the average F1 MAKER. They have the means to test and prove things that we, as peasants, can not.
Pinned and welded muzzle brake so you can't attach a suppressor to your weapon via the threads, I guess the engineers at Surefire figured out the problem with those evil threads. There has to records showing crime statistics of the number of people arrested yearly for non-pinned muzzle brakes.
Serious question. In what hypothetical situation is an officer actually doing more than a visual inspection?
how are they testing it?
Do they carry a portable x ray machine or weld inspection tools?
Do they put it in a vise and try to crack it loose?
how are they testing it?
Do they carry a portable x ray machine or weld inspection tools?
Do they put it in a vise and try to crack it loose?
I don’t know if this is true at all!
I read an “opinion” that they put a wrench, essentially a hand tool only, on there and it must stay on.
My question is wouldn’t a warrant be required? If seen some pretty big wrenches so is there a limit?
Although this seems questionable.....
I read an “opinion” that they put a wrench, essentially a hand tool only, on there and it must stay on.
My question is wouldn’t a warrant be required? If seen some pretty big wrenches so is there a limit?
Although this seems questionable.....
How are going to drip some silver solder ? Siver solder most gunsmiths use is 355 silver solder that is round or comes in a ribbon form, requires a lot of heat, actually use oxy/ acetylene. Many will use some type of heat sink to prevent heat from travel away from intended work area. Just so some reading this realize this solder is different then what plumbers use. With all that, it would be faster and easier to just weld it right to begin with.
Have you ever used any kind of silver solder?
You are missing my point.
If I put 100 different pin and weld jobs in front of you do you think you could tell me the difference much less which is legal or not?
There are a number of products under the "silver solder" umbrella that can be used. Some melt with a soldering iron. The untrained eye couldnt tell the difference. Does the ATF regulation spell out the exact specification of pin and weld? Size of hole? material of pin? location? depth into barrel? Type of weld? penetration? force required to remove?
Seems like some people take the better safe than sorry approach and arc weld it on.
You are the one who said "drip some silver solder and make it look welded" all I am saying is just do it right. What is so hard about that, you claim to have welding expirience, so just weld it and be legal.
Because "done right" is subjective and it's an arbitrary goal In hopes of satisfying some arbitrary requirement.
Aka, a Joke.
Keep in mind somebody thought the pen and Weld job in the original post was "" done right
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I don’t know of a single cop (at least in Michigan) that’s putting a wrench on your muzzle devices to test the pin and weld
Most have no idea what the laws are surrounding barrel length, braces, vfg’s, suppressors etc.
Not saying you couldn’t come across some power hungry cop who hates gun owners. But generally if LE is going this in depth with your guns it likely stemming off something much bigger and being handled by LE who specialize in these areas
Now I wouldn’t test this in Cali, Chicago or New York
Point being that nobody here knows the laws apparently, nor does it likely matter.
Is welding half way around the device required? Is solder with 1,100 degrees minimum melting point required? is a little tiny pin soldered in with plumbers solder adequate? Must it be 1/8” pin welded on? Is silver solder dripped on look good enough to pass (which is not hard or time consuming and is obviously not structural)? Nobody has said.
Barrel Length Matters!
What we can assume is the op’s job likely won’t come off easy, and likely won’t negatively affect anything.
Is welding half way around the device required? Is solder with 1,100 degrees minimum melting point required? is a little tiny pin soldered in with plumbers solder adequate? Must it be 1/8” pin welded on? Is silver solder dripped on look good enough to pass (which is not hard or time consuming and is obviously not structural)? Nobody has said.
Barrel Length Matters!
What we can assume is the op’s job likely won’t come off easy, and likely won’t negatively affect anything.
The last one I had done, some years ago, I sent it to a decently well known company that sort of specialized in doing it, especially in local ban states.
A few years later I decided to change something and it had to come off. Just for the heck of it, before I started to grind on it, I put a wrench on it just to see what she'd do. What she do was spun right off with no resistance. They made a beautiful tig weld on a pin that didn't even get through the device, let alone into the barrel. I contacted them about it and the response was basically "oh well, it happens." Nice. So what you paid for something we didn't actually do, so what you walked around with a felony for a few years.
If I ever do one again, I'll do it myself. Better price and at least I'll know it's done. Files, sanding and paint can hide a world of sins.
A few years later I decided to change something and it had to come off. Just for the heck of it, before I started to grind on it, I put a wrench on it just to see what she'd do. What she do was spun right off with no resistance. They made a beautiful tig weld on a pin that didn't even get through the device, let alone into the barrel. I contacted them about it and the response was basically "oh well, it happens." Nice. So what you paid for something we didn't actually do, so what you walked around with a felony for a few years.
If I ever do one again, I'll do it myself. Better price and at least I'll know it's done. Files, sanding and paint can hide a world of sins.
But then you wouldnt have plausable deniability. You honestly though it was pin and welded and had a receipt to prove it.
I had zip at that point. I suppose they might have stepped up more had I needed legal help.
My real wonder was about the retro AR pencil barrel I had them cut to 10" and put on a fake moderator, then later sold. Is it okay? That's a federal oopsie, not just state like the other one.
My real wonder was about the retro AR pencil barrel I had them cut to 10" and put on a fake moderator, then later sold. Is it okay? That's a federal oopsie, not just state like the other one.
That is the point you got from all of this? The ATF is pretty clear on what they consider acceptable in almost every issue you listed, whether you want to believe that or not.Point being that nobody here knows the laws apparently, nor does it likely matter.
Is welding half way around the device required? Is solder with 1,100 degrees minimum melting point required? is a little tiny pin soldered in with plumbers solder adequate? Must it be 1/8” pin welded on? Is silver solder dripped on look good enough to pass (which is not hard or time consuming and is obviously not structural)? Nobody has said.
Barrel Length Matters!
What we can assume is the op’s job likely won’t come off easy, and likely won’t negatively affect anything.
Welding: From an ATF letter specifying what is a legal weld for a permanently attached muzzle device:
"A seam weld extending at least one-half the circumference of the barrel or four equidistant tack welds around the circumference of the barrel are adequate for this purpose."
Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.
Solder Melting Point: Direct quote from the ATF NFA Handbook, discussing what are acceptable methods to permanently attach a muzzle device:
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
Again, I don't know how much more clear it can be.
A Pin With Solder: Direct quote from the ATF NFA Handbook:
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
It specifically states WELDED. There is no vagueness. Soldering without a pin is mentioned in the same sentence, and conspicuously NOT mentioned as an acceptable method to secure the pin.
I don't see how there is any confusion about using solder in any fashion to secure a pin, despite all those here that seem to want to magically create confusion when none exists. Welding is the only accepted way to attach the pin. Period. End of discussion.
1/8" Pin: I have seen no ATF directives on a minimum size. Most people use smaller than 1/8", 3/32" is common. The pin material is generally harder than the barrel, thus with pins this size the barrel will fail first anyway.
How is it Tested: This is the only place where things are vague. The ATF has been known to place the gun in a vise and apply a large torque to the muzzle device. What happens at this point is not defined. How much torque is applied to be considered passing? The ATF needs to clarify this, but we all know they won't.
Thanks for your opinion, Mr. ATF man. Of course. none of what you stated is actual law, only administrative directives and interpretation. I, however, wouldn't want to be a test case.
They are not clear on every issue.
What size pin? Not specified.
Torque or force necessary to be considered permanent, or however it should be defined? Not clear.
Not much actual atf stuff was quoted previous to this in this thread. Just lots of banter and opinions.
Neither do I personally care one way or the other, cause nothing I own has any muzzle device pinned on.
And what I got out of it was the op has a device that is adequately secured, in the opinion of an outside observer, and probably still has a very nice firearm.
The ATF is vague in many areas.
Was that clear enough for you?
You can call me Mr ATF man all you want, it doesn't bother me. Knowledge is power, and I have taken the time to learn what is what. If that makes you upset or jealous to the point you feel the need to throw feeble attempts at disparaging names, I don;t really care.
And for the record, almost nothing contained in my above post is my "opinion". Those are direct quotes from ATF documents, not my opinion.
As for it not being law, you are correct, it is not law. It is, however, the determinations of a federal agency tasked to interpret and enforce the laws. And it has all been upheld in higher courts. So it is, for all practical purposes, the law. Research the Chevron Doctrine if you want to understand why.
Now, you can argue semantics on this being "law" all you want. But at the the end of it all, what is in those statements is what will determine the size of the room you live in for the next 10 years if the ATF/courts have reson to consider your fate.
Well it’s all illegal laws clearly based on what’s in the bill of rights and federalist papers, so
I don't get the point of your post. You act all irritated, while simultaneously putting up statements saying exactly the same thing I said.
While I agree with you, the judge overseeing your case is likely not. How do you think that will work out for you?Well it’s all illegal laws clearly based on what’s in the bill of rights and federalist papers, so
It sure does:
weld-(verb) join together (metal pieces or parts) by heating the surfaces to the point of melting using a blowtorch, electric arc, or other means, and uniting them by pressing, hammering, etc.
And do you know which methods the ATF has approved?
From the ATF NFA Handbook-
"Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over."
You know what isn't a "weld"? Some silver solder dripped on a pin.
Sounds like I hit a nerve. Don't shoot my dog. In the ATF NFA passage you quoted, the key word is "include". It does not exclude other methods.
It says right there 1100°F silver solder, blind welded.
Aka
Drizzled on a pin eyes closed
You all sound like a bunch of Sally’s,
If you want I’ll throw a load of hafejd30 juice on the threads….
While not legit,
She’ll hold for a little while
If you want I’ll throw a load of hafejd30 juice on the threads….
While not legit,
She’ll hold for a little while
You hit a nerve? You way overestimate yourself. Like Beto O'Rourke-level self-overestimation.
Include-Your assessment of the meaning of "Include" is correct, but incomplete. "Include" is one of the most misunderstood words used in legal and statutory applications. When used in the context of a law or code, "include/including" means "include/including without limitations". So when a statement such as the ATF uses to describe legal methods of attachment contains "including", it does in fact mean that there MAY be other acceptable methods of muzzled device not specifically listed. The sticky point is who gets to decide what else MAY be legal.
If you have not already figured out who gets to decide, it is the ATF. And to this point, they have not approved anything else other than what is specifically listed in their written and posted documentation. If you want to know why the ATF gets to decide, then again, look up the Chevron Doctrine.
Or don't, and continue to not know anything on the subject. It really doesn't matter that much to me.
Is this really the best you have left? I am disappointed.
Someone knowing what the laws are, and how they are enforced, has no correlation whatsoever to that persons level of support or agreement with any of the said laws. Those two conditions have no dependence on the other.
Nowhere have I ever said I am an advocate of any gun laws. I challenge you to find any post I have ever made in support of your claim.
I won't bother waiting, because you will never find anything. Ever.
And I won’t bother looking. I got some muzzle devices waiting on some solder drips
I would not expect you to look. That would take actual effort to know what you are talking about. This does not appear to be one of your strong points.
As for the solder dripping, good for you. Hope it works out well for you.
I do not understand why anyone is arguing with NC_Libertarian, all he did was provide BATFE determinations of law as it stands as of now. No their determinations are not laws passed by legislators, but that is irrelevant because they will enforce based on their determinations. You may believe their determinations are unjust, again not relevant, they will enforce based on those determinations. Those determinations are published so everyone can follow the law, if you believe their determinations are not legal laws and do not want to follow them, don't I could care less what anyone else does. You would be committing a felony and could face 10 years, also loose your rights to own any firearms, so if you want to take a stand against the ATF go for it, I hope it works out for, I actually don't agree with their laws either but will follow them.
Have you ever made a facetious comment and then someone gets technical so you play devils advocate and challenge their technical expertise just to keep it going? Becaue its all a joke to begin with.
Technically pin and welded is a guideline on acceptable methods not results. I could technically drip some solder on a pin and be compliant per ATF discription. I dont have to go above and beyond and arc weld the muzzle device to the barrel to be technically compliant.
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To the OP.
Sorry. That's a shit job.
To the couple people in blue blazers and tan pants. Thanks for pointing out who not to associate with. You'd be the first to report your neighbors. The first to turn in your guns; because the law says.
I'm not advocating breaking the law(for legal purposes) but really? I'm guessing you have 922R just as far down your throat as the ATF's dick.
Sorry. That's a shit job.
To the couple people in blue blazers and tan pants. Thanks for pointing out who not to associate with. You'd be the first to report your neighbors. The first to turn in your guns; because the law says.
I'm not advocating breaking the law(for legal purposes) but really? I'm guessing you have 922R just as far down your throat as the ATF's dick.
