Yes, once or twice. And based on what I'm seeing here probably not again.
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right on
You're not getting it. Dropping an UNLOADED pistol means you're done shooting for the day. What's the difference between an unloaded pistol and an unloaded rifle?
You know what, don't answer. I've learned enough.
I was under the impression the Shannon's intent is to fix that and have it be a DQ going forward.
That would be great.
Oh I get I'm picking up what you are laying down. I've shot quite a bit of pistol. IDPA, USPSA and 3 gun. How about if a rifle falls over on its side while on the clock bolt back? how about if someone kicks the rifle over in the staging area?
this was to address this
1.4.4 First offense of violating the 120 degree rule will result in a stage DQ. Second
offense will result in a removal of the offending shooter from the competition.
1.4.5 Any shooter that fails to maintain control of a firearm during a stage (loaded or
unloaded) will receive a stage DQ if the firearm breaks the 120 degree rule. Second
offense will result in a match DQ.
The huge difference here is pistols go in holsters and rifles are already on the ground. Sometimes they are staged on the ground mag in bolt back and the competitor is 10 yards back waiting on the R/O to start time
Awesome. I was just reading through the rules to take a look. Thanks for posting that.
how is it losing control of the rifle if it's 10 yards in front of you sitting on the ground?
pistol or rifle idk why the fuck it matters. they are both firearms and shoot projectiles at very fast speeds and can mame injor and kill from very far distances away
exactly
not sure what your point is here? we're not talking about staging a rifle for a stage. we're talking about dropping it
So if you are already on the ground with your rifle in hand and the rifle rolls to its side, is that dropping or losing control?
I'm talking about indexing to another target and the rifle rolls on its side
losing control? yes
bolt back. i'd say no foul as it's presumably still in a safe direction.
bolt forward finger on trigger, then you may have an issue.
but without being there in the specific instance it's hard to make a call. which is still a judgement call in this case because i dont think it's as black and white
The moral of the story here:
Shit is getting so convoluted, even one of the best shooters was completely tripped up by the shear amount of gear and the task load it imparted to his brain.
I've been on a stage and timed out F'n with my tripod ~ I'd love to see just a bit more emphasis on shooting the stage and a little less in bringing the cooler into a stage.
Shit is getting so convoluted, even one of the best shooters was completely tripped up by the shear amount of gear and the task load it imparted to his brain.
I've been on a stage and timed out F'n with my tripod ~ I'd love to see just a bit more emphasis on shooting the stage and a little less in bringing the cooler into a stage.
That is where I'm going with this the PR sport is different than USPSA/3 gun it has components of an action shooting sport but is still different. Rifles are staged on the ground in a safe direction not in a holster or gun bag. IDK maybe we should have to box and un box our rifles. Maybe we should be a lot more strict on gun handling rules. I'ld like to see them written up then test out implementation. NorCal is perhaps one of the safest and most professional PR matches I've ever been to most of the recommended changes were already implemented by them adding to the established rules. I think common sense rules that are easy to implement and really add to safety are needed and important. Throwing a bunch or rules in there that have room for interpretation are terrible and will add to the drama. IDPA comes to mind. A really good idea taken over by rules nazi
how so?
Yup! this year while setting my rifle up on a fence post 3' or so off the ground. The rifle rolled off the bag and I guided the muzzle to the ground maintaining control never braking the 120, bolt was back. No lose of control and did not break the 120. Thoughts?
Lmfao, buttpirate or 308pirate...whatever it is. Mr. “I don’t shoot matches” but I’ll certainly make more than 4K SH posts since 2017...I’m dying. My 7 year old has more credibility as it pertains to this topic than you do. If only you dented as many primers as posts you’ve made, your opinions wouldn’t be total bullshit.
I did the same thing in Utah off a tank trap point earlier this year. Muzzle stayed in line with the target, I controlled the rifle as it came down and kept my finger off the trigger. That being said, I also saw another shooter ND doing the exact same thing, burned a round into the dirt just 10 feet ahead of the stage.
I think I would add to the loss of control 120 degree rule... once you get on target and close the bolt, a loss of control of the rifle to the point where it comes off target in any significant fashion should be a stage DQ, even if it doesn't break 120 degrees.
I Spoke to Shannon last night for quite a while and we discussed all of this and his roll moving forward.
I am gonna make a statement about it, as a lot of this was discussed as well as stuff moving forward.
Technically speaking Shannon took over Monday Morning and he impressed on me the changes moving forward.
I am out and about but plan on making a full statement as we covered a lot between the PRS and Me / The Hide
I am gonna make a statement about it, as a lot of this was discussed as well as stuff moving forward.
Technically speaking Shannon took over Monday Morning and he impressed on me the changes moving forward.
I am out and about but plan on making a full statement as we covered a lot between the PRS and Me / The Hide
I can't fathom just letting my AXMC and Nightforce fall much less not trying to prevent it from happening flagging someone.
We need to define lose of control. ie no contact with the rifle at all. One hand on the rifle I think would be acceptable since most of our shooting is done that way to include the prone. So the rifle can be "guided" to the ground safely during a fall as long as it is not in a hot status or breaks the 120? thoughts
Lmfao. You’re cute too Max
I can honestly say that I am exited to see what direction this collaboration will take the PRS.
There is definitely a school of thought not to chase the weapon and attempt to catch it.
It’s been around for years and I know the thinking is, left alone is safer than trying to grab it and potentially interact with the trigger causing a bigger issue.
Attacking the guys who are pointing out the obvious is not productive, just because you may or may not have a long history or are a frequent match shooter is not the issue, this is common sense on so many levels. The ball was dropped on several levels and everyone sees it. It’s not hard to understand and just coming on on trolling people for their opinion is not helpful.
Everyone wants to see things succeed, and the path to success is not straight, it’s not even, and it should be guided by common sense. The level of the violation was crystal clear, the path that it took in the aftermath may not have been so black and white, but that does not change what we all know is the right answer.
Sorry I don;t define myself by my match participation in any given year, nor do I define myself or success by my score and placement at any given match I do attend.
The shooting sports have been around a fuck ton longer than these events and these rules have been established over time and history. The fact the series did not have the same rules in place as many other shooting sports is not a knock on those who point that out, but on the group who decided to ignore them. Dismissing a valid opinion because the presenter does not spend each and every weekend chasing scores does not make them less valid.
It’s been around for years and I know the thinking is, left alone is safer than trying to grab it and potentially interact with the trigger causing a bigger issue.
Attacking the guys who are pointing out the obvious is not productive, just because you may or may not have a long history or are a frequent match shooter is not the issue, this is common sense on so many levels. The ball was dropped on several levels and everyone sees it. It’s not hard to understand and just coming on on trolling people for their opinion is not helpful.
Everyone wants to see things succeed, and the path to success is not straight, it’s not even, and it should be guided by common sense. The level of the violation was crystal clear, the path that it took in the aftermath may not have been so black and white, but that does not change what we all know is the right answer.
Sorry I don;t define myself by my match participation in any given year, nor do I define myself or success by my score and placement at any given match I do attend.
The shooting sports have been around a fuck ton longer than these events and these rules have been established over time and history. The fact the series did not have the same rules in place as many other shooting sports is not a knock on those who point that out, but on the group who decided to ignore them. Dismissing a valid opinion because the presenter does not spend each and every weekend chasing scores does not make them less valid.
Yeah, that would be a tough one to quantify for an RO on the spot. Rules are always better when they are able to be clearly interpreted.
I think the 120 rule for an open bolt rifle is fine, build position, shuffle around, okay if you had the rifle roll off the bag and be guided straight down to ground with one hand on it.
Full loss of control (ie not touching rifle at all) on open bolt rifle where the rifle falls but does not break the 120, I'm not sure. Bump a rifle over on its side from prone position doesn't seem like a huge offense. Drop an open bolt rifle off a barricade, free falls hits dirt but stays pointed down range? I would say that is just luck, so my leaning would be stage DQ. If I were writing that rule it would be something to the effect of "If the shooter loses contact with the rifle and the rifle free falls to the ground the shooter will be issued a stage DQ". Tipping over when prone is not free fall, keeping one hand on the gun to guide muzzle down in a safe direction is not losing contact with the rifle, so it would only apply to true dropped rifles.
As far as a rule for closed bolt, hot rifle I would be more strict on that. Something more like any "If a rifle with a closed bolt and round in chamber makes an observable deviation beyond 10 degrees off line of target, whether intentional or unintentional on the part of the shooter, the result will be a stage DQ." That would capture all transitions with a hot rifle (big no-no) any sketchy movements where the shooter closes the bolt but then decides to rebuild their position and sweeps the entire downrange target area with a hot rifle (potential skyline), and any partial dropped rifles where a hot gun rolled off a tank trap or similar. My goal would be that the shooter never loses sight of the target in scope once bolt is closed, but you'd have to write the rule to be externally observable. This is pretty much how everyone shoots currently, the only potential impact might be on those guys who run the three target PRS skills stage by fully cycling the bolt and pivoting left/right with a hot gun.
Great to hear!
Frank I don't think most of us where attacking folks with a different opinion. I think getting an idea of working knowledge of the subject as well as a back ground of prior fire arms experience is relevant. I feel that there are some areas even in the current 2019 rules that need refinement ie what constitutes "lose of control" IMHO letting go of a loaded or unload fire arms is loss of control. Keeping a hand on the weapon and guiding it to the ground in a safe directing not breaking 120 is not loss of control. You know that match shooting for me is less than 1% of my fire arms back ground.
Stage DQs should not be looked at as Big Monster...
It should be looked at as an enforcement tool.
Another note, as I don;t know whether these matches all have insurance, but if you demonstrate a safety issue, and it gets overlooked and then in the same event you, you have a second, deadly violation, the courts and insurance will say,
Shooter A demonstrated a problem with safety, the MD let him slide, then Shooter A had a second issue and hurt Shooter B in process. No amount of waivers wil cover you, that is a fact of this litigious society we live in.
This is the primary reason Jacob had and is known for his level of safety and zero tolerance policies. It can and will come back to bite you.
It should be looked at as an enforcement tool.
Another note, as I don;t know whether these matches all have insurance, but if you demonstrate a safety issue, and it gets overlooked and then in the same event you, you have a second, deadly violation, the courts and insurance will say,
Shooter A demonstrated a problem with safety, the MD let him slide, then Shooter A had a second issue and hurt Shooter B in process. No amount of waivers wil cover you, that is a fact of this litigious society we live in.
This is the primary reason Jacob had and is known for his level of safety and zero tolerance policies. It can and will come back to bite you.
Hi Scott,
Can you show me one "against prs" person in this thread that called anyone names?
Can you show me one "for prs" person in this thread that has called them all names?
From a marketing/advertising perspective..especially to potential series sponsors such as myself; the series needs help and when any of the "Known" entities within the series such as Bryan S goes to that level it is not helping Shannon in the PR side of the series.
In reality of this thread.....That "Series" is over. New ownership, new rules already out, rules still being looked at, RO issues/responsibility has already been brought up too. Can't everyone just get past who did what last season, last ownership, etc and go into the new era
The PRS drama is starting to be reminiscent of the Cheytac drama of the mid 90s.....
Sincerely,
Theis
agreed
Agreed that series is over but there is still history and in some ways that still needs to get flushed out 100%. There is the calling of names and there is also the questioning of someones back ground knowledge base or moral character. One is very aggressive the other is passive aggressive but end up in the same space. I'm very optimistic about where the PRS is going without a doubt. Venting is part of the ugly process to reconciliation. I would argue that the thread title is toxic in itself there is enough of that going around. SH is an incredible platform way better than FB. Let FB be the drama filled place. I used to be a member here up from 2007 or 08 ish until the move to Scout then I lost interest and didn't come back to it until recently. Since then I have been told to sit down, shut up and get my post count up in the airsof thread and then I need to get a clue like I have none. That's all fine I get a kick out of it, it's kind of nice not being a known quantity here, which also indicates the level of opinion sometimes isn't matched by background.Hi Scott,
Can you show me one "against prs" person in this thread that called anyone names?
Can you show me one "for prs" person in this thread that has called them all names?
From a marketing/advertising perspective..especially to potential series sponsors such as myself; the series needs help and when any of the "Known" entities within the series such as Bryan S goes to that level it is not helping Shannon in the PR side of the series.
In reality of this thread.....That "Series" is over. New ownership, new rules already out, rules still being looked at, RO issues/responsibility has already been brought up too. Can't everyone just get past who did what last season, last ownership, etc and go into the new era
The PRS drama is starting to be reminiscent of the Cheytac drama of the mid 90s.....
Sincerely,
Theis
As a friend of Asian guy ( post #71) and a long time RSO, we agree consistency is the key in a stage. Much like a baseball umpire. Call the same strike zone for all players. We are constantly working to ensure a good match is ran.
I am surprised for such a "manly" sport, there are as many babies competing. There is the bell curve of competitors. From the super cool and relaxed to the royal pain in the ass. If we remember your name from previous matches you probably are one of them. The irony is the women that compete are the best to deal with.
Remember these matches are for your enjoyment. If you complaint enough, the range might not have them anymore. Be careful what you ask for.
As to the rule in question: It seems PRS had an over site. Imagine that, they are human. Dropping a weapon during a stage should be a DQ in any format.
I am surprised for such a "manly" sport, there are as many babies competing. There is the bell curve of competitors. From the super cool and relaxed to the royal pain in the ass. If we remember your name from previous matches you probably are one of them. The irony is the women that compete are the best to deal with.
Remember these matches are for your enjoyment. If you complaint enough, the range might not have them anymore. Be careful what you ask for.
As to the rule in question: It seems PRS had an over site. Imagine that, they are human. Dropping a weapon during a stage should be a DQ in any format.
get your post count up airsofter....mmmkay
I think we are at the point of defining loss of control. Example if a shooter doesn't have enough height on the bipod, reaches forward to adjust the leg and the rifle rolls on its side. Is that loss of control or a dropped gun?
I need to get my post count up so I can start selling shit again
Just pay Frank ?
You have to consider the very worst, new shooter vs the better or more experienced guys.
I look at this from the point of, guy buys an RPR and shows up to a match with nothing in his toolbox.
I don’t personally think a rifle pointed downrange tipping over to the side an issue, however there is a bolt up vs bolt down, if that same bipod adjustment happens with a bolt closed, yes, its a violation. I make a point to say that the bolt up is the only acceptable form of a rifle being on safe. It’s a visual cue you can see from a distance.
If the bolt is open the mag is out, safety is defined in a different way. Then even if you slip off a barricade and guide / ride it to a muzzle tip and not a full drop, it’s not.
Lowest common denominators have to considered not what the experienced shooters do. the rules have to be set in a way to protect the field.
Rifles are so much more deadly up close vs a handgun, it’s easier to flag people with a handgun because of the size, but the consequences of a failure are greater with a rifle. Mechanical trigger safeties cannot be trusted with with everyone running triggers in the ounces, like i said, i am 100% sure if we bounce tested a lot of these rifles they would fail
I look at this from the point of, guy buys an RPR and shows up to a match with nothing in his toolbox.
I don’t personally think a rifle pointed downrange tipping over to the side an issue, however there is a bolt up vs bolt down, if that same bipod adjustment happens with a bolt closed, yes, its a violation. I make a point to say that the bolt up is the only acceptable form of a rifle being on safe. It’s a visual cue you can see from a distance.
If the bolt is open the mag is out, safety is defined in a different way. Then even if you slip off a barricade and guide / ride it to a muzzle tip and not a full drop, it’s not.
Lowest common denominators have to considered not what the experienced shooters do. the rules have to be set in a way to protect the field.
Rifles are so much more deadly up close vs a handgun, it’s easier to flag people with a handgun because of the size, but the consequences of a failure are greater with a rifle. Mechanical trigger safeties cannot be trusted with with everyone running triggers in the ounces, like i said, i am 100% sure if we bounce tested a lot of these rifles they would fail
I think we are at the point of defining loss of control. Example if a shooter doesn't have enough height on the bipod, reaches forward to adjust the leg and the rifle rolls on its side. Is that loss of control or a dropped gun?
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