Importance of bubble level in the real world

[timelinex]

I just wanted to make a post about something I learned this weekend. I have always done shooting at a range FOR THE MOST part. So no matter what my position, with a bipod im always level. I've always wanted a bubble level, but could never justify to myself spending 40-50 bucks on one, and just spending it on ammo instead for more practice. Last week vortex sent me one complimentary because of a mess up they had on my repair( Thank you vortex, you guys have a lifetime customer now!). It came just in time, right before I went out and shot to 800 yards IN THE WILD from one mountain to another. The terrain was slightly tilted, rocky, uneven, shrubs everywhere .... A.K.A the real world and not the range or at a match where spots are pre chosen and groomed a little.

All I can say is WOW. Setting up on not even ground, I realized how crucial it is to have one. The bubble would be way off, when I thought my rifle was level... It did a great job at telling me that my rifle isn't fully level when I could of sworn it looks level. It made sighting in and repeatedly hitting the target at 800 yards just a streamlined process. It took out all the guesswork and I knew if it was on the left or right side of the target it was wind or site alignment and NOT cant or anything like that. At 800 yards even a degree off is a big deal but indiscernible to most people's naked eye.

For anyone that has shot on rough terrain, where it isn't flat or smooth and has a bubble level should know what I'm talking about. Between every shot, before looking at the bubble the rifle was canted a bit to one side or another.

This is obviously something that all experienced shooters already know, but I just wanted to make a post in case anyone is on the edge of buying one, to make their decision easy. If I experienced what I did this weekend before, I would have bought one in a second.

 

[Graham]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Oh boy.....And to think that I just shot ASC without one.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh boy.....And to think that I just shot ASC without one.

</div></div>
Hey, Im not saying its a MUST. But neither is a scope, many people shoot to 1000 yards without any kind of magnification! Good for them, and if its working, then great. But I wouldn't trade any amount of ammo for having a good working scope to shoot long range. Thats what I'm trying to get at here... If you have been doing just fine without one, great, but if you are on the border of whether to get one or not. GET ONE

 

[AKAce]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh boy.....And to think that I just shot ASC without one.

</div></div>

But you likely would have WON it with one.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

George won it several times without one, I was 2nd more than once without it, how do you account for the winners who didn't use it.

 

[tullius]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Plumb targets.

 

[AKAce]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">George won it several times without one, I was 2nd more than once without it, how do you account for the winners who didn't use it. </div></div>

Was an inside joke LL... I know you shoot well without one.

 

[SRSDriver]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

All joking aside, how many folks here doing field/practical shooting use one?

I put one on, and spent all my time getting into a solid position on top of that cactus... Never flipped it out once.

I'm newer, but have found myself consumed with my fundamentals, pre-shot checklist, and watching the wind. The level completely passed me even though it was sitting right there all weekend...

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

An external cant indicator is like any other tool. It may not be a necessity and it certainly won't overcome poor shooting fundamentals. But under the right conditions, it may prove to be a useful addition for some individuals.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I think at a minimum they're handy when you're starting out for no other reason than to get you to focus on obtaining an accurate horizon picture. Once my rifles are set up at my shooting position and level I take a mental snapshot of the horizon and don't need to look at it again. I'm at the point now that I can obtain an accurate horizon without it and I have one rifle without one and the lack of it has no apparent affect so I wouldn't buy another.

Although I'd disagree with the notion that uneven terrain increases the requirement for one, at least for me...I find that at most ranges I shoot when things <span style="font-style: italic">look</span> groomed and level, they're actually not and the terrain is far more deceiving. I find it easier to determine an accurate horizon when there is a lot of terrain variation with a large horizon verses a groomed lane between the trees that obscures the horizon. Subtle variations will trick your brain more. You should also notice that you'll gain a more accurate horizon picture at the lowest magnification setting with a wide field of view.

Being off-can't only hurts you if the deviation is inconsistent. For example some people may have a tendency to have a natural cant in one dierction or another yet it doesn't hurt them because it's <span style="font-style: italic">consistent</span> shot-to-shot. If it's consistent it can be cancelled out with a hold or dialed out.

Good training tool but train yourself to live without it and read the horizon.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">George won it several times without one, I was 2nd more than once without it, how do you account for the winners who didn't use it. </div></div>

Software (experience) always trumps hardware.

 

[223man]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I just ordered one 2 weeks ago. And I have found it helps. But then again I live on the wet side of WA, so where I shoot it is very hilly and mountainous, therefor not a hole lot of "level" ground to go off of.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world


SRS Driver wrote: "All joking aside, how many folks here doing field/practical shooting use one?"


I have a USO cant indicator and use it... sometimes. I bought one because I saw Doc's setup at a course and figured that if it was good enough for him...

Also, I have a tendancy to cant slightly to the left. Done it all my life. No issue at shorter ranges or hunting. But at long ranges with duty rifle, the cant is a problem and a level can help. Can't always count on plumb targets!

At recent Gastonia comp, I used my external level on several longer shots and I think it paid off.

Though I rarely use it, I am glad I have it and when time is available, level-confirmed consistency is never a bad thing!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I use the level mounted in the main tube of my USO SN-3. I use it quite a bit especially because its right in the bottom of my sight picture while I'm shooting.

I can't remember who posted it but they did a test with 5 degree's of cant @ 600 yards and the difference in POI was what I could consider pretty significant.

 

[M21guy]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I like having it. It's just another tool for me to use to keep consistant.

 

[Graham]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, Im not saying its a MUST. But neither is a scope, many people shoot to 1000 yards without any kind of magnification!</div></div>If you think that the need for a level is on par with the need for a scope, then you haven't done much shooting.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

If you can't perceive a 3 or more degree cant regardless of the terrain it is time for a new hobby.

That said, the 2011 SHC had more bubble levels than I have ever seen used, mounted, what have you. Several stages where I walked down the line to instruct shooters to fire I noted and commented on the status of their level as I found it comical the addition of so many. Even on the tower more were off level and not used than one could imagine. If I added them all up it was easily $2500 worth of wasted gear. Nobody used them an more people were slightly off level with them than without.

But hey whatever makes you sleep good at night, right. If you got it smoke it.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

what if you got yours for free?

i have like 3 sitting in my safe i'm goin to put all three on one scope to make sure i'm level

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Free beats bought every time, I was thinking of doing the same thing, one on the muzzle brake, one on the scope and one on the rail. Just to be safe.

Joe with ideas like that it's no wonder they use "special" in your title. To quote Mickey in Rocky, "shrewd" .

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I met a flight attendant in Bahrain with a bubble level tattoo'd on her back and crosshairs on her butt cheeks. I don't care what Frank says I like them just for the flashbacks

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

hey leave me and the other short bus kids alone. my mom calls me special everyday

 

[Taken Out Slak]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I started using a USO model bubble about two yrs ago on my new AI. If you got the AI whats 80 more bucks right? It only seemed to make sense. The problem is that I realized I naturally canted my rifles slightly to the right and to make the bubble level I had to shoot the rifle in an ackward position. So after somewhat forcing myself to adapt to "level" I then realized I couldn't shoot a stage without checking it because the rifle did not ever feel natural. So I had a choice. Shoot level and burn valuable 10ths of seconds during stages in challenges always checking it or shoot natural and be confident in my training. So I say they have a place just be careful as to how dependent you become on them.

 

[GardDog]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't remember who posted it but they did a test with 5 degree's of cant @ 600 yards and the difference in POI was what I could consider pretty significant.


</div></div>

JFC, I was thinking about the same post.

It ensures consistency and has helped me. Or as LL has stated, it makes me feel like it's helping. Maybe the rabbits foot scope cloth or juju bag will also help.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Even on the tower more were off level and not used than one could imagine. If I added them all up it was easily $2500 worth of wasted gear. Nobody used them an more people were slightly off level with them than without.

</div></div>

Actually, would that not justify having them? The problem seems to be not using it, rather than it not being useful. If there is no level, how do you know those guns without were actually level?

Now, at 600 or so and in, you've got to be off a pretty large amount to move the POI enough to really matter. A couple degrees is not likely to to cause a miss all on it's own, though it might contribute to other errors.

Since the majority of shots in a comp are not often between 500 and 800, unless you routinely get 5 degrees of cant in without noticing you probably don't NEED it. If you do that, I'd say there are other issues.

If I'm shooting the majority of my shots past 600, it's nice to have, and past 1K I'd go so far to say it's required.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

If you are an experienced long range shooter and you dont need it then you dont need it. If you aren't then you can set up, get in a good position you think is level, and then check to see how you did. Can be a good tool to check if your eyeballs are calibrated right. Sort of like making a wind call and then pulling out the Kestrel to see how close you were. Over time you get a lot more accurate that way. All that is assuming that both your level and kestrel are accurate to begin with.

 

[Jim the Plumber]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Try using one at night.

 

[justme]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

To each his own. Since I have been using them I've noticed that I have made many more first shot hits on enemy groundhogs on the long shots

 

[Triad]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Somebody has to know this: How many degrees off of vertical can most human eyes discern?

If the Mod I MK I eyeball can discern 3% for example, what good is a bubble level that is only accurate to 4%?

Do the level manufactures make claims about the accuracy of their products?

Jim the Plumber,
The levels that have the green fluid glow at night because they are filled with the blood of the Green Goblin.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I'd be interested in seeing the cant experiment done again, at say 500, 600, 800, 900 yards with maybe a max of 3 degrees of cant. Look at the dispersion from point of aim versus size of tactical targets and see if its really something that can be an issue.

Might be something to mess with this fall.

Rich

 

[JoeyAld]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Somebody has to know this: How many degrees off of vertical can most human eyes discern?

If the Mod I MK I eyeball can discern 3% for example, what good is a bubble level that is only accurate to 4%?

Do the level manufactures make claims about the accuracy of their products?

Jim the Plumber,
The levels that have the green fluid glow at night because they are filled with the blood of the Green Goblin.</div></div>

Great question! I think it would be directly related to strength of a persons vision.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Somebody has to know this: How many degrees off of vertical can most human eyes discern?</div></div> I'm just guessing but I would think eyesight is only part of the equation. Our ears actually determine balance so it seems logical that they also play a role in determining what we percieve to be vertical.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I suck at shooting compared to many of you guys on here. So I try to compensate for the lack of ability or experience with some neat little gadgets to help keep me strait while firing from various positions under different conditions. Maybe they help and maybe they don't? Maybe it is the placebo effect? If it works?

 

[Fester47]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

What is so hard about this? If it works for you,than great. If you havn't tried it, then try it. If you have one, try without it. If you don't have one then get one and try it. This goes for alot of questions on here. I understand if the gear you are asking about is more than most of us want to pay. But go get a b-square for $18 bucks. I have one and replaced the socket cap screw with a 1/4" longer and added a wing nut screwed on backwords so I can remove it without tools.I even made it look cool with Krylon. Just tape over the glass bubble first.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Using my drop at 1000 yd, (34.7 MOA), <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> degree of cant = ~6.3" windage error at 1000 yd.

[(sin 1.0)(10.472in/MOA @ 1000 yd)(34.7 MOA elevation adjustment) = 6.34in

If your eyes are good enough to detect one degree of cant consistently, that's fantastic. Mine aren't, so I use one.

I'm not really sure why there seems to be any debate over this topic. Anti-cant levels are just a tool. If you think it helps, use one. If not, don't buy one.

BTW: here is the link to the "cant test" thread; it's worth a read IMO:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2601069&page=1

 

[timelinex]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Wow, I had no idea this thread was gonna turn into a pissing match!

I understand many of you are level 10 super human snipers to the extreme and only need a rock and your throwing hand to hit a fly at a mile, but many of us are actual human beings. Our perception and abilities, NO MATTER HOW TRAINED, are still very limited to certain capabilities. You can lift weight's everyday but still not be able to lift a truck off the ground while a machine can.

I think maybe many of you misinterpreted the picture I painted. I can obviously gauge whether my my rifle is fairly even in respect to the ground. On the side of a mountain/hill, its not just uneven terrain but the hill is actually slanted to an unknown angle. So you don't just have to match up to the ground, and the horizon doesn't always help when its a bumpy mountainous region. Our perception is only as good as the cues we are given and the limits of human sensitivty.

Don't believe me? Check out this article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2006/0609-the_mysterious_gravity_hill.htm
I recommend looking at that video, its actually really cool. We had one of these not too far from where I grew up. Its crazy how easily human perception can be fooled.

We are all always recommended to give our scope the box test, to make sure it tracks well. Then we are told to make sure our crosshairs aren't canted, and I doubt any serious LR shooters do it purely 'by eye'. They always use somekind of tool or method whether its matching to a plumb line or feeler gauges. Why wold this be any different.

So Im not sure why there had to be any personal mockery involved in this discussion, when I was just saying my exeprience with a tool.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using my drop at 1000 yd, (34.7 MOA), <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> degree of cant = ~6.3" windage error at 1000 yd.</div></div>

And what is the combined resolution and accuracy of your 1/2" long bubble level?

 

[goober]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

+1 For charles Atlas bubble levels --people used to kick sand in my face before I got one but not anymore.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I know they're generally accurate enough to hold an aircraft wings level in the event of flight instrument failure. Note the bubble below the FDI...that's exactly what its for and the ones used in avaition aren't exactly manufactured by rocket scientists. They really don't have to be that accurate for a shooters purpose.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

God, I have never seen as many sensitive feeling hurt because we are teasing you over the use of a $40 bubble level.

I am all about advocating that which makes you feel better, a warm and fuzzy feeling inside always helps the cause.

If you believe they will build it, or more to my heart, I am not about to murder your fairy. Personally I think Tinkerbell is kinda hot, so who am I to push you towards killing her.

 

[Jrb572]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Frank,
You should have made the level ez like the butter flavored wind cheater. You could have cornered the market.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I did have the idea for Level EZ, I remember that... I think what happened was Capt Karl missed a match so we never did that video.

I will work on that one.

 

[Slickrick0999]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I have one I bought before I started shooting past 200 yards. Yeah, it was one of those "I dont shoot enuf so I will buy some stuff" things.

Honestly, I have never used it. It may very will help me as I am not that good. Dont know if it would help or not but am sure everybody realizes if ya like it, roll with it.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Dependence on equipment increases chances that something may fail at an inappropriate moment (but when was the last time your bubble level quit on you?). On the other hand, not using simple affordable devices that can improve your results is plain silly.

We use great many things/devices/toys to supplement our abilities & skills, that would've made our sharpshooting ancestors cringe in shame...

<smile on>
A "good" shooter shouldn't use a scope - it can fail. Real shooters were taking out targets at 1000 yards with rifled muskets and iron sights. Pre-WWI Mosin-Nagant iron sights were graduated to 2000 meters.
A "good" shooter wouldn't stoop to using a rear bag or monopod - just use your hand, what's wrong with it?
A "good" shooter won't burden himself with GPS, compass or any other equipment - particularly battery-powered. And ballistic calculators should be anathematized.

To think of it - only a wimp would use firearms at all.
<smile off>

If some of you developed the ability to tell by eye how level the rifle is - good for you. If a $40 gadget allows me a shortcut - great! Gadgets can't replace Fundamentals, but they do help.

<span style="font-style: italic">And it may come that the most elusive and precious shooting skill - reading the wind - will become obsolete with the success of One-Shot project, which will succeed eventually sooner or later - like it or not.</span>

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using my drop at 1000 yd, (34.7 MOA), <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> degree of cant = ~6.3" windage error at 1000 yd.</div></div>

And what is the combined resolution and accuracy of your 1/2" long bubble level?
</div></div>

Better than my eyes are without it. YMMV.

 

[Shredder58]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Reminds me of a nursery rhyme...

Some like it hot, some like it cold, some like it in the pot nine days old...

Me, I like the idea of a bubble level for shots at many hundreds of yards. Gives me that warm fuzzy way down deep. But I respect whatever conclusion others want to reach on the subject.

 

[Guest]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Until your past a grand +, they be just Tacticool to me. 1500 an beyond, if you can read it correctly, an if it's mounted correctly, they have some worth.

Play targets, do seem to require many gizmos?

 

[Voyagertwelve]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I use the ASLI from Horus, I'm happy with it and it levels and gives slope.

 

[subwofer2]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I picked up a USO level off a member here. Couldn't be happier with what it's done for me at 1000yds.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

It's like people who live in places like Florida who have Angle Cosine indicators on their rifles...

They live and shoot on flat plains, but that ACS is ever present.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And what is the combined resolution and accuracy of your 1/2" long bubble level?</div></div>
Well, tested in the house against digital inclinometer I get 0.1 degrees repeatable accuracy (mounted with the same level of precision). In the field it's 0.3-0.5 degrees, repeatable. Must add that the reticle cant was measured and found to be less than 0.1 degree (not usual, but...). Scope tracking was measured and verified.

You see, I'm trying to ensure that the shooter is - and stays - the weakest link in this chain.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's like people who live in places like Florida who have Angle Cosine indicators on their rifles... </div></div>
Do they always stay and shoot only in places like Florida? Might they want the ability to shoot elsewhere, where the angles would be present? What's the expense they took to cover that eventuality - about one or two boxes of ammo, not outrageous by any means?

Why not?


P.S. I need to look into buying one of those ACS.

P.P.S. Where I'm shooting there are no angles. But if I encounter one - Bullet Flight on my iPhone can measure the angle and compute the necessary correction. So perhaps I don't need to rush to buying ACS just yet.