Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
damn
- Thread starter Blue Line
- Start date
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.
Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.
This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
Well actually if i were a duncan commando swat ninja team leader hero bent on destruction and mayhem with a blatant dash of bill of rights disregard, id arm my team with 16 inch dsa para fal's equipped with funswitch and with rail mounted glocks which also wear pistol bayonets. What the hell...if i can get a warrant theyre all trash in my way to mop up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.
Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.
This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
Well actually if i were a duncan commando swat ninja team leader hero bent on destruction and mayhem with a blatant dash of bill of rights disregard, id arm my team with 16 inch dsa para fal's equipped with funswitch and with rail mounted glocks which also wear pistol bayonets. What the hell...if i can get a warrant theyre all trash in my way to mop up.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN
There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
I respectfully disagree. HK mp5's have been used for decades over here the 416, ump, and mp7 are all available here(to Leo and military), with good logistical support. FN has a robust support system in the US the SCAR would be a great choice it's already in widespread use with USASOC. And there is very little training differences between SCAR and AR series weapons if you can shoot and maintain an m4 you can use a scar. The only training that will have to happen is maintenance/disassembly and that class took 30 min for all of it. So again I have to respectfully disagree.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN
There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
I respectfully disagree. HK mp5's have been used for decades over here the 416, ump, and mp7 are all available here(to Leo and military), with good logistical support. FN has a robust support system in the US the SCAR would be a great choice it's already in widespread use with USASOC. And there is very little training differences between SCAR and AR series weapons if you can shoot and maintain an m4 you can use a scar. The only training that will have to happen is maintenance/disassembly and that class took 30 min for all of it. So again I have to respectfully disagree.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Mar, reading is not your strong point. I Said Civy LE Can and use ammo Military cant and some of this ammo would not cycle in our 10.5" Commandos. This does not say Joe's experience does not matter but different ammo may cause different problems
Joe, the post was in no way meant to discount your experience. I know you have a shit load, its just been with different ammo than LE uses. The ammo we had most problems with was are standard entry 55 soft point Federal round. Never tried in 12.5" because Colt offered 10.5 or 14.5" at the time. I did several classes with other PDs who also had same problems with the short 10.5" weapons and some ammo. If you took that as a slight it was not my intention. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a guy about a praticular rifle. I loved the rifle and he hated it based on differente experiences. He spent a great deal of time with it in Artic Cold and I was in high heat. For me it was fantastic while he hated the sob.
Mar,As to your attacks on LE get a grip. Find some aluminum foil and make some new hats
Mar, reading is not your strong point. I Said Civy LE Can and use ammo Military cant and some of this ammo would not cycle in our 10.5" Commandos. This does not say Joe's experience does not matter but different ammo may cause different problems
Joe, the post was in no way meant to discount your experience. I know you have a shit load, its just been with different ammo than LE uses. The ammo we had most problems with was are standard entry 55 soft point Federal round. Never tried in 12.5" because Colt offered 10.5 or 14.5" at the time. I did several classes with other PDs who also had same problems with the short 10.5" weapons and some ammo. If you took that as a slight it was not my intention. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a guy about a praticular rifle. I loved the rifle and he hated it based on differente experiences. He spent a great deal of time with it in Artic Cold and I was in high heat. For me it was fantastic while he hated the sob.
Mar,As to your attacks on LE get a grip. Find some aluminum foil and make some new hats
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
F/A was considered over 3 rd burst due to more manufacturers using it. HK DQ'd themselves when I enquired about a T & E gun. Ideally I want a 12.5" bbl however every freakin manufacturer does some diff BS. 12.7" 11.5" 10.5" 14.5". I'm trying to take into account that I will be running these suppressed (so I can trample the bill of right's for Mar quietly). My main concern is penetration through barriers such as auto glass. Joe, God bless yopu with the .330 Blk call. I was thinking that the whole time but need to keep to a 5.56 because of standardization (bastards). As for pork? I am proud to be the other white meat!
F/A was considered over 3 rd burst due to more manufacturers using it. HK DQ'd themselves when I enquired about a T & E gun. Ideally I want a 12.5" bbl however every freakin manufacturer does some diff BS. 12.7" 11.5" 10.5" 14.5". I'm trying to take into account that I will be running these suppressed (so I can trample the bill of right's for Mar quietly). My main concern is penetration through barriers such as auto glass. Joe, God bless yopu with the .330 Blk call. I was thinking that the whole time but need to keep to a 5.56 because of standardization (bastards). As for pork? I am proud to be the other white meat!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daps!</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN
There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
I respectfully disagree. HK mp5's have been used for decades over here the 416, ump, and mp7 are all available here(to Leo and military), with good logistical support. FN has a robust support system in the US the SCAR would be a great choice it's already in widespread use with USASOC. And there is very little training differences between SCAR and AR series weapons if you can shoot and maintain an m4 you can use a scar. The only training that will have to happen is maintenance/disassembly and that class took 30 min for all of it. So again I have to respectfully disagree. </div></div>
Yes. I know very well that MP-5s are available and have been used for awhile now. I hae a pic somewhere from sometime ago with my butt using up Uncle Sam's 9mm ammo. Whatever about that. HK has had a supply system in place for awhile same as FN. If they didn't then the market for them would have dried along time ago, because eventually...all guns will break. I had a malfunction on the same MP-5 that I briefly talked about, so it's not immune from being a machine. MP7s? Why?
And the entire SCAR system is based off of the AR family for a reason, but there is also the availability of parts. I'm not saying there isn't any, I'm saying you have a better chance at getting a part for a M4 carbine versus a SCAR if there is an urgent need.
But now I AGREE with any LE agency have whatever weaponry or ordnance they want if the need is, but keep in mind that new cars have bugs too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daps!</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN
There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
I respectfully disagree. HK mp5's have been used for decades over here the 416, ump, and mp7 are all available here(to Leo and military), with good logistical support. FN has a robust support system in the US the SCAR would be a great choice it's already in widespread use with USASOC. And there is very little training differences between SCAR and AR series weapons if you can shoot and maintain an m4 you can use a scar. The only training that will have to happen is maintenance/disassembly and that class took 30 min for all of it. So again I have to respectfully disagree. </div></div>
Yes. I know very well that MP-5s are available and have been used for awhile now. I hae a pic somewhere from sometime ago with my butt using up Uncle Sam's 9mm ammo. Whatever about that. HK has had a supply system in place for awhile same as FN. If they didn't then the market for them would have dried along time ago, because eventually...all guns will break. I had a malfunction on the same MP-5 that I briefly talked about, so it's not immune from being a machine. MP7s? Why?
And the entire SCAR system is based off of the AR family for a reason, but there is also the availability of parts. I'm not saying there isn't any, I'm saying you have a better chance at getting a part for a M4 carbine versus a SCAR if there is an urgent need.
But now I AGREE with any LE agency have whatever weaponry or ordnance they want if the need is, but keep in mind that new cars have bugs too.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
While 9mm MP5 has proven a very reliable weapon, the caliber of 9mm has not. The MP5 in 40SxW has proven to be about as reliable as a Raven 25 auto
While 9mm MP5 has proven a very reliable weapon, the caliber of 9mm has not. The MP5 in 40SxW has proven to be about as reliable as a Raven 25 auto
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
emember I got in a huge argument with them. We got a bunch of 40 SxW MP5s in and they had come out with a "Special Locking Piece" for the 40SxW because it was oo much less than a reduced FBI 10mm. We had one gun after another having case ruptures because they opened up to soon when pressures where too high. I ended up getting some FBI Locking pieces from 10mm FBI weapons to make our work without blowing up all the time.
Yeah I remember too well.
emember I got in a huge argument with them. We got a bunch of 40 SxW MP5s in and they had come out with a "Special Locking Piece" for the 40SxW because it was oo much less than a reduced FBI 10mm. We had one gun after another having case ruptures because they opened up to soon when pressures where too high. I ended up getting some FBI Locking pieces from 10mm FBI weapons to make our work without blowing up all the time.
Yeah I remember too well.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While 9mm MP5 has proven a very reliable weapon, the caliber of 9mm has not. The MP5 in 40SxW has proven to be about as reliable as a Raven 25 auto</div></div>
I'm not knocking you, but I already addressed the 9mm and MP5 issue in this thread. If anything, I am just saying I agree. This thread is way off topic....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While 9mm MP5 has proven a very reliable weapon, the caliber of 9mm has not. The MP5 in 40SxW has proven to be about as reliable as a Raven 25 auto</div></div>
I'm not knocking you, but I already addressed the 9mm and MP5 issue in this thread. If anything, I am just saying I agree. This thread is way off topic....
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
FA versus burst trigger group is part of any discussion about AR Platforms and frankly having purchased more than a couple of departmental weapons, I know very few even know the difference in command positions of LE.
FA versus burst trigger group is part of any discussion about AR Platforms and frankly having purchased more than a couple of departmental weapons, I know very few even know the difference in command positions of LE.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
I will preface by saying I'm not an LEO but I've been smithing AR platforms for about a decade.
The reason departments who express the need for auto fire will continue to choose f/a over burst (if that is an option) comes down to hands on T and E. Because of the mechanics of burst fire the trigger group when used in semi where those rifles will spend most of thier time the trigger will lack consistency. In military issue m16a2/4 and m4s the issued trigger group can vary on all three pulls. The average is about 8lbs 11lbs 13lbs. But age and wear on the trigger group springs can vastly change the trigger pull. The 16A3 and 4a1 both have consistent semi pulls in my experience soldiers tend to group and zero better on f/a selector systems. Consistency is te key to f/a popularity.
Just my $.02.
(sorry)
I will preface by saying I'm not an LEO but I've been smithing AR platforms for about a decade.
The reason departments who express the need for auto fire will continue to choose f/a over burst (if that is an option) comes down to hands on T and E. Because of the mechanics of burst fire the trigger group when used in semi where those rifles will spend most of thier time the trigger will lack consistency. In military issue m16a2/4 and m4s the issued trigger group can vary on all three pulls. The average is about 8lbs 11lbs 13lbs. But age and wear on the trigger group springs can vastly change the trigger pull. The 16A3 and 4a1 both have consistent semi pulls in my experience soldiers tend to group and zero better on f/a selector systems. Consistency is te key to f/a popularity.
Just my $.02.
(sorry)
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes
SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.
Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat
experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.
This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
Well actually if i were a duncan commando swat ninja team leader hero bent on destruction and mayhem with a blatant dash of bill of rights disregard, id arm
my team with 16 inch dsa para fal's equipped with funswitch and with rail mounted glocks which also wear pistol bayonets. What the hell...if i can get a warrant theyre all trash in my way to mop up.</div></div>
You will never be one Marduk. Just keep typing on your keyboard in ebonics.....this forum is the closest you will get to doing anything tactical. </div></div>
humorously you make my point for me succinctly psl1078. if judges departments and leo's in this country would stop trying to be seal team wannabe "tactical" and more concerned with their job, ie protecting and serving the public, this thread wouldnt even exist.
im not attempting in any way to be "tactical" or "entry" anything, but rather find it disturbing how this forum is trending away from precision and long range shooting and looking more and more like a bunch of airsofters hopefully only pretending to be leo's.
can we please get back to the ar10 vs m14 discussions and stop being barfcom. joe q public is apalled especially in light of the many recent leo abuses. jmho
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes
SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.
Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat
experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.
This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
Well actually if i were a duncan commando swat ninja team leader hero bent on destruction and mayhem with a blatant dash of bill of rights disregard, id arm
my team with 16 inch dsa para fal's equipped with funswitch and with rail mounted glocks which also wear pistol bayonets. What the hell...if i can get a warrant theyre all trash in my way to mop up.</div></div>
You will never be one Marduk. Just keep typing on your keyboard in ebonics.....this forum is the closest you will get to doing anything tactical. </div></div>
humorously you make my point for me succinctly psl1078. if judges departments and leo's in this country would stop trying to be seal team wannabe "tactical" and more concerned with their job, ie protecting and serving the public, this thread wouldnt even exist.
im not attempting in any way to be "tactical" or "entry" anything, but rather find it disturbing how this forum is trending away from precision and long range shooting and looking more and more like a bunch of airsofters hopefully only pretending to be leo's.
can we please get back to the ar10 vs m14 discussions and stop being barfcom. joe q public is apalled especially in light of the many recent leo abuses. jmho
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
It's nice to see some departments believe in progress. Out here we're still using MP-5s for entry work. Luckily we also have 5.56 in the form of Colt M-4s at our disposal. Like yours our MP-5s are quite old but they're still hanging in there. It's a bitch for our armorers to get parts from HK though.
Oh by the way, both platforms are completely F/A.
It's nice to see some departments believe in progress. Out here we're still using MP-5s for entry work. Luckily we also have 5.56 in the form of Colt M-4s at our disposal. Like yours our MP-5s are quite old but they're still hanging in there. It's a bitch for our armorers to get parts from HK though.
Oh by the way, both platforms are completely F/A.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's a bitch for our armorers to get parts from HK though.
Oh by the way, both platforms are completely F/A.</div></div>
That's one reason we shit canned ours; that and we had to have guys with M16s or M4s cover the entry teams movement to the objective.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's a bitch for our armorers to get parts from HK though.
Oh by the way, both platforms are completely F/A.</div></div>
That's one reason we shit canned ours; that and we had to have guys with M16s or M4s cover the entry teams movement to the objective.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes
SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.
Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat
experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.
This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
Well actually if i were a duncan commando swat ninja team leader hero bent on destruction and mayhem with a blatant dash of bill of rights disregard, id arm
my team with 16 inch dsa para fal's equipped with funswitch and with rail mounted glocks which also wear pistol bayonets. What the hell...if i can get a warrant theyre all trash in my way to mop up.</div></div>
You will never be one Marduk. Just keep typing on your keyboard in ebonics.....this forum is the closest you will get to doing anything tactical. </div></div>
humorously you make my point for me succinctly psl1078. if judges departments and leo's in this country would stop trying to be seal team wannabe "tactical" and more concerned with their job, ie protecting and serving the public, this thread wouldnt even exist.
im not attempting in any way to be "tactical" or "entry" anything, but rather find it disturbing how this forum is trending away from precision and long range shooting and looking more and more like a bunch of airsofters hopefully only pretending to be leo's.
can we please get back to the ar10 vs m14 discussions and stop being barfcom. joe q public is apalled especially in light of the many recent leo abuses. jmho </div></div>
SERIOUSLY!!?? Marduk you were the one that took us into barf com land, go back a and read the first page. The OP posted a simple thread asking for information under the correct forum, and it was going smoothly on topic until YOU took us way off topic on the" LEO doesn't need FA tangent". Now you want to appeal for SH to go back to pure LR shooting? This from the person who so recently was ranting about a Apache helicopter violating his "sovereign" airspace and wondering if it was ok to shoot at a US military helicopter flying in the US. You need to stand up push away the keyboard and have a nice cup of STFU. You contribute nothing but BS. When you start posting relevant posts that are on topic maybe people will start to listen to you until then maybe you should just follow some old school advice " it is far better to remain silent and have people think you a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." I know that following this old advice is not going to be easy for some one like you but please..................try.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.
Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?
No.
Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes
SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.
Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat
experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.
This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs. </div></div>
Well actually if i were a duncan commando swat ninja team leader hero bent on destruction and mayhem with a blatant dash of bill of rights disregard, id arm
my team with 16 inch dsa para fal's equipped with funswitch and with rail mounted glocks which also wear pistol bayonets. What the hell...if i can get a warrant theyre all trash in my way to mop up.</div></div>
You will never be one Marduk. Just keep typing on your keyboard in ebonics.....this forum is the closest you will get to doing anything tactical. </div></div>
humorously you make my point for me succinctly psl1078. if judges departments and leo's in this country would stop trying to be seal team wannabe "tactical" and more concerned with their job, ie protecting and serving the public, this thread wouldnt even exist.
im not attempting in any way to be "tactical" or "entry" anything, but rather find it disturbing how this forum is trending away from precision and long range shooting and looking more and more like a bunch of airsofters hopefully only pretending to be leo's.
can we please get back to the ar10 vs m14 discussions and stop being barfcom. joe q public is apalled especially in light of the many recent leo abuses. jmho </div></div>
SERIOUSLY!!?? Marduk you were the one that took us into barf com land, go back a and read the first page. The OP posted a simple thread asking for information under the correct forum, and it was going smoothly on topic until YOU took us way off topic on the" LEO doesn't need FA tangent". Now you want to appeal for SH to go back to pure LR shooting? This from the person who so recently was ranting about a Apache helicopter violating his "sovereign" airspace and wondering if it was ok to shoot at a US military helicopter flying in the US. You need to stand up push away the keyboard and have a nice cup of STFU. You contribute nothing but BS. When you start posting relevant posts that are on topic maybe people will start to listen to you until then maybe you should just follow some old school advice " it is far better to remain silent and have people think you a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." I know that following this old advice is not going to be easy for some one like you but please..................try.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Don't feed the trolls. If you don't like the topic feel free not to read it or post anything. I only argue/fight with people when I'm getting paid to do it. H&K's customer service sucks here in the US. Phoenix PD called for a T&E gun and they told them after an 8 month wait, they prefer to work towards the European market. If your not LAPD ordering 100+ of something they don't care about you.
Don't feed the trolls. If you don't like the topic feel free not to read it or post anything. I only argue/fight with people when I'm getting paid to do it. H&K's customer service sucks here in the US. Phoenix PD called for a T&E gun and they told them after an 8 month wait, they prefer to work towards the European market. If your not LAPD ordering 100+ of something they don't care about you.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Blue Line
I am only writing here because my curious nature makes it impossible not to. But what other requirements do you have for your new weaponsystem. It sounds like people including yourself favor the AR platform. Probably a great choice.
But what other than the barrel length have you set your mind on. Stock, railsystems, sights, slings, lights, what kind or brand of supressor?
Blue Line
I am only writing here because my curious nature makes it impossible not to. But what other requirements do you have for your new weaponsystem. It sounds like people including yourself favor the AR platform. Probably a great choice.
But what other than the barrel length have you set your mind on. Stock, railsystems, sights, slings, lights, what kind or brand of supressor?
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
You will never be one Marduk. Just keep typing on your keyboard in ebonics.....this forum is the closest you will get to doing anything tactical. [/quote]
humorously you make my point for me succinctly psl1078. if judges departments and leo's in this country would stop trying to be seal team wannabe "tactical" and more concerned with their job, ie protecting and serving the public, this thread wouldnt even exist.
im not attempting in any way to be "tactical" or "entry" anything, but rather find it disturbing how this forum is trending away from precision and long range shooting and looking more and more like a bunch of airsofters hopefully only pretending to be leo's.
can we please get back to the ar10 vs m14 discussions and stop being barfcom. joe q public is apalled especially in light of the many recent leo abuses. jmho [/quote]
SERIOUSLY!!?? Marduk you were the one that took us into barf com land, go back a and read the first page. The OP posted a simple thread asking for information under the correct forum, and it was going smoothly on topic until YOU took us way off topic on the" LEO doesn't need FA tangent". Now you want to appeal for SH to go back to pure LR shooting? This from the person who so recently was ranting about a Apache helicopter violating his "sovereign" airspace and wondering if it was ok to shoot at a US military helicopter flying in the US. You need to stand up push away the keyboard and have a nice cup of STFU. You contribute nothing but BS. When you start posting relevant posts that are on topic maybe people will start to listen to you until then maybe you should just follow some old school advice " it is far better to remain silent and have people think you a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." I know that following this old advice is not going to be easy for some one like you but please..................try. [/quote]
just a concerned citizen walking into a discussion about what full auto is needed and my opinion like it or no, was that the ops need of a fa was nil. i was on topic. the fact that i seem to have touched a nerve with this answer to the ops question is regrettably an indication of a troubling trend in law enforcement circles. im out lads. respectfully
You will never be one Marduk. Just keep typing on your keyboard in ebonics.....this forum is the closest you will get to doing anything tactical. [/quote]
humorously you make my point for me succinctly psl1078. if judges departments and leo's in this country would stop trying to be seal team wannabe "tactical" and more concerned with their job, ie protecting and serving the public, this thread wouldnt even exist.
im not attempting in any way to be "tactical" or "entry" anything, but rather find it disturbing how this forum is trending away from precision and long range shooting and looking more and more like a bunch of airsofters hopefully only pretending to be leo's.
can we please get back to the ar10 vs m14 discussions and stop being barfcom. joe q public is apalled especially in light of the many recent leo abuses. jmho [/quote]
SERIOUSLY!!?? Marduk you were the one that took us into barf com land, go back a and read the first page. The OP posted a simple thread asking for information under the correct forum, and it was going smoothly on topic until YOU took us way off topic on the" LEO doesn't need FA tangent". Now you want to appeal for SH to go back to pure LR shooting? This from the person who so recently was ranting about a Apache helicopter violating his "sovereign" airspace and wondering if it was ok to shoot at a US military helicopter flying in the US. You need to stand up push away the keyboard and have a nice cup of STFU. You contribute nothing but BS. When you start posting relevant posts that are on topic maybe people will start to listen to you until then maybe you should just follow some old school advice " it is far better to remain silent and have people think you a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." I know that following this old advice is not going to be easy for some one like you but please..................try. [/quote]
just a concerned citizen walking into a discussion about what full auto is needed and my opinion like it or no, was that the ops need of a fa was nil. i was on topic. the fact that i seem to have touched a nerve with this answer to the ops question is regrettably an indication of a troubling trend in law enforcement circles. im out lads. respectfully
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Barrel length appears to be 11.5-12.5" depending on how the short barrels do against barriers, especially auto glass. I'm not opposed to 2 different types of ammo but I dont want to have 9 different color coded mags. Cans, I'm down to either the AAC M42000 or one of the Surefire QD's. This also goes back to barrel length the shorter the barrel the longer the suppressor can be without making things difficult. The stock is easy no particular make, just something with a little storage and 4-6 positions. I'm a single point sling guy Savvy Sniper makes a nice one and he is local. Rail systems, quadrail, sights - operators choice, I'm going Eotech. Lights I like the Surefire M900 but the most screaming deal on a great light is from Kyle Lambs group, Viking Tactics. He has a Surefire with VT name on it and that beam is awesome. I played with one at carbine instructors class and its very well made. Hope that answers a few things.
Barrel length appears to be 11.5-12.5" depending on how the short barrels do against barriers, especially auto glass. I'm not opposed to 2 different types of ammo but I dont want to have 9 different color coded mags. Cans, I'm down to either the AAC M42000 or one of the Surefire QD's. This also goes back to barrel length the shorter the barrel the longer the suppressor can be without making things difficult. The stock is easy no particular make, just something with a little storage and 4-6 positions. I'm a single point sling guy Savvy Sniper makes a nice one and he is local. Rail systems, quadrail, sights - operators choice, I'm going Eotech. Lights I like the Surefire M900 but the most screaming deal on a great light is from Kyle Lambs group, Viking Tactics. He has a Surefire with VT name on it and that beam is awesome. I played with one at carbine instructors class and its very well made. Hope that answers a few things.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Really nice options in my opinion.
I became really fond of the surefire QD suppressors when borrowing one. Some of our SF here use them on a short barrel carbine, and dropped by with one when we where out shooting. He said that they had experienced that after a few hundred rounds the supressor made such a mess in the weapon that jamming could be an issue. For that reason they would like a piston type system like the HK 416. But then again SWAT will hopefully not need to fire that amount of rounds in a fight.
I took a look at those slings from Savvy Sniper. They look pretty awesome. And there is nothing like buying local
Single point all the way for this application.
I used a surefire M620V Scout Light myself on my last trip to Afghanistan and I will use it again the next time. Dont know if you would have any need for the IR feature, but it is truly a great light. I have never been a fan of the foregrip mounted lights for several reasons.
Except for the fact that I am an Aimpoint over EOTech guy, we seem to be on the same page with these things
Best of luck with your purchase.
Really nice options in my opinion.
I became really fond of the surefire QD suppressors when borrowing one. Some of our SF here use them on a short barrel carbine, and dropped by with one when we where out shooting. He said that they had experienced that after a few hundred rounds the supressor made such a mess in the weapon that jamming could be an issue. For that reason they would like a piston type system like the HK 416. But then again SWAT will hopefully not need to fire that amount of rounds in a fight.
I took a look at those slings from Savvy Sniper. They look pretty awesome. And there is nothing like buying local
I used a surefire M620V Scout Light myself on my last trip to Afghanistan and I will use it again the next time. Dont know if you would have any need for the IR feature, but it is truly a great light. I have never been a fan of the foregrip mounted lights for several reasons.
Except for the fact that I am an Aimpoint over EOTech guy, we seem to be on the same page with these things
Best of luck with your purchase.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Blue Line, I currently have a 12.5 Noveske GPR and love it! (I think I already mentioned this). I have also been looking at the Surefire cans. I was toying with the idea of getting their FA556AR which is 7.5 inches long but only adds 3.75 inches to the length of your weapon system. The FA556AR plus a 12.5 barrel would put you at 16.5 inches. (just about the same length as adding a mini suppressor to a 10.5 inch barrel) Make it a Noveske GPR Switchblock, and now you have an awesome weapon system that will be as quiet as you can make a 5.56, still a very practical length for CQB, and plenty of velocity to get effective hits on target out to 400 yards.
Not to mention you have the double chrome lined barrel plus an adjustable gas block to keep it just a little cleaner.
Blue Line, I currently have a 12.5 Noveske GPR and love it! (I think I already mentioned this). I have also been looking at the Surefire cans. I was toying with the idea of getting their FA556AR which is 7.5 inches long but only adds 3.75 inches to the length of your weapon system. The FA556AR plus a 12.5 barrel would put you at 16.5 inches. (just about the same length as adding a mini suppressor to a 10.5 inch barrel) Make it a Noveske GPR Switchblock, and now you have an awesome weapon system that will be as quiet as you can make a 5.56, still a very practical length for CQB, and plenty of velocity to get effective hits on target out to 400 yards.
Not to mention you have the double chrome lined barrel plus an adjustable gas block to keep it just a little cleaner.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
You might try to get ahold of the ACR in 10.5 or 12.5 in barrel. A ground up piston platform with a proven AR 15 trigger group, the grip angle is reminiscent of the Mp5 selector switch also shares some commonality. Might be worth at least going hands on with it. Parts are domestic. It's like if a scar an hk and an AR had a three way. Food for thought.
You might try to get ahold of the ACR in 10.5 or 12.5 in barrel. A ground up piston platform with a proven AR 15 trigger group, the grip angle is reminiscent of the Mp5 selector switch also shares some commonality. Might be worth at least going hands on with it. Parts are domestic. It's like if a scar an hk and an AR had a three way. Food for thought.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
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Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first post said this should not have been asked on a public forum. That was once you open it to the public you will be asked lots of questions that sidetrack from the original intent to gain knowledge. Once the door is opened LE has an obligation to answer lots of questions the folks who pay us will ask. We will have to justify why we want/need certain items such as FA. If you dont want to nicely answer those questions you dont ask on public forum. You dont tell the general public to f off because you are too important to answer questions you dont want to. You dont like being nice to general public, find another job. All LE are a couplde of votes away from being paid minimum wage and unarmed. We serve at discreation of the public.
Ok so your not my brother. It was a figure of speach from many years of LE. What your are or claim to be is a fellow LE Officer and obviously can never be told when you are wrong. Usually this comes from guys when they are in the "I know everything" phase. This happens between 7 and 10 years then they get to 15 plus and learn we/they dont know shit. Funny that is usually(the 7-10 years) the amount of time guys have on that do something dumb enough to get fired for.
Anyway you look at it, we work ( well actually I retired after 25 years LE in US and few similar LE off shore but still have vested interest young hot head dont damage the badge)for the public and our job is to educate them not insult them, even when they act like Mar does.
Go about your business, talk down to folks, alienate folks and see how they react when your department wants to give raises out. I used to tell numb nuts who worked for me not to write chicken shit tickets because it just pissed off the guys who pay our salaries. Old saying from someone who taught me and should be taught to every academy class is "Fuck with folks who need to be fucked with and leave the rest of the folks the fuck alone"
It always eaiser to start nice and only go bad ass when absolutely needed.
I probably understand you alot better than you think. I am just passed the point of being impressed by much. Too many scars. Too many tough guys. Too much BS before you came to our rescue.
Just remember probably 50% of the guys on here are far better shots/operators than you or I will ever hope to be. You just never know the background/experience of who you are talking to on here.</div></div>
PSL, please read the above and re-read it again before typing in again. seems to me the true troll is revealed, yup you, the guy that has stupid ass comments to just about everybody that was trying to discuss the topic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first post said this should not have been asked on a public forum. That was once you open it to the public you will be asked lots of questions that sidetrack from the original intent to gain knowledge. Once the door is opened LE has an obligation to answer lots of questions the folks who pay us will ask. We will have to justify why we want/need certain items such as FA. If you dont want to nicely answer those questions you dont ask on public forum. You dont tell the general public to f off because you are too important to answer questions you dont want to. You dont like being nice to general public, find another job. All LE are a couplde of votes away from being paid minimum wage and unarmed. We serve at discreation of the public.
Ok so your not my brother. It was a figure of speach from many years of LE. What your are or claim to be is a fellow LE Officer and obviously can never be told when you are wrong. Usually this comes from guys when they are in the "I know everything" phase. This happens between 7 and 10 years then they get to 15 plus and learn we/they dont know shit. Funny that is usually(the 7-10 years) the amount of time guys have on that do something dumb enough to get fired for.
Anyway you look at it, we work ( well actually I retired after 25 years LE in US and few similar LE off shore but still have vested interest young hot head dont damage the badge)for the public and our job is to educate them not insult them, even when they act like Mar does.
Go about your business, talk down to folks, alienate folks and see how they react when your department wants to give raises out. I used to tell numb nuts who worked for me not to write chicken shit tickets because it just pissed off the guys who pay our salaries. Old saying from someone who taught me and should be taught to every academy class is "Fuck with folks who need to be fucked with and leave the rest of the folks the fuck alone"
It always eaiser to start nice and only go bad ass when absolutely needed.
I probably understand you alot better than you think. I am just passed the point of being impressed by much. Too many scars. Too many tough guys. Too much BS before you came to our rescue.
Just remember probably 50% of the guys on here are far better shots/operators than you or I will ever hope to be. You just never know the background/experience of who you are talking to on here.</div></div>
PSL, please read the above and re-read it again before typing in again. seems to me the true troll is revealed, yup you, the guy that has stupid ass comments to just about everybody that was trying to discuss the topic
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in Ohio civilians can own f/a weapons and suppressors, so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? </div></div>
No, but is that the ONLY basis for your department needing F/A weapons? You might want to check on how you worded that. I was under the impression from what YOU said in this topic that it was old MP5s. I was even willing to give you the benefit that your department might have pick up a dealer with an AK, but geesh.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? Especially with the number of LEO's killed int he line of duty in the last 18 months</div></div>
How many were killed by civilians with full auto weapons and surpressors?
IMHO. You just destroyed your argument for having any F/A weapons. Why?
You listed your concern as being civilians and not criminals.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in Ohio civilians can own f/a weapons and suppressors, so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? </div></div>
No, but is that the ONLY basis for your department needing F/A weapons? You might want to check on how you worded that. I was under the impression from what YOU said in this topic that it was old MP5s. I was even willing to give you the benefit that your department might have pick up a dealer with an AK, but geesh.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? Especially with the number of LEO's killed int he line of duty in the last 18 months</div></div>
How many were killed by civilians with full auto weapons and surpressors?
IMHO. You just destroyed your argument for having any F/A weapons. Why?
You listed your concern as being civilians and not criminals.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Guys the OP stated that his dept decided on select fire. It's out of his hands, he's trying to find the best weapon within the constraints given to him by his dept. Why should he have to justify it? He didn't make the decision to have FA, hes just trying to solicit advice on the best tool that he and his teammates will trust with their lives. This thread started out good and has turned to shit with everybody trying to validate their own personal beliefs on a nonrelated issue. I understand that people have strong opinions on the FA for LEO issue, and that it deserves healthy debate. I'm just saying that this thead wasn't started under that premise and that there are other places ie. The bear pit that are better suited for that kind of discussion. I'm not a moderator or a high post count guy who's internet-Fu is strong, I'm just offering my opinion.
Guys the OP stated that his dept decided on select fire. It's out of his hands, he's trying to find the best weapon within the constraints given to him by his dept. Why should he have to justify it? He didn't make the decision to have FA, hes just trying to solicit advice on the best tool that he and his teammates will trust with their lives. This thread started out good and has turned to shit with everybody trying to validate their own personal beliefs on a nonrelated issue. I understand that people have strong opinions on the FA for LEO issue, and that it deserves healthy debate. I'm just saying that this thead wasn't started under that premise and that there are other places ie. The bear pit that are better suited for that kind of discussion. I'm not a moderator or a high post count guy who's internet-Fu is strong, I'm just offering my opinion.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I'm really sorry now that I brought this here. I was looking for new and interesting ideas from a broad spectrum of experiences. For the most part I got some great ideas and I am thankful for that, however, I'm not trying to start an online fight with anyone. Everyone has a right to their opinions but since I explained that the weapons will be select fire, how many times should the select fire vs semi-auto be rehashed? As far as explaining the need for them I don't think I want to go into scenerios or our operational capabilities. Here in Ohio civilians can own f/a weapons and suppressors, so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? Especially with the number of LEO's killed int he line of duty in the last 18 months. I have 15 yrs of experience OTJ, 10 as a Sgt, and 6+ on SWAT. I was never in the military due to having cancer 3x when I was 12, 13, and 14 yrs old. I wanted to be, but they wouldn't take me since I had that. So I have tried to serve my community the best way I can. I hope that this thread can take a more positive turn. </div></div>
Dude, this is a great site with a wealth of information coming from a shitload of experienced people from all walks of life. Don't let a couple of dicks throw the topic off course.
Whether you want select fire, burst or a fucking 40mm chaingun that isn't for people on here to decide or question. Don't feel the need to justify or explain to anyone, especially the few douchebags here that are constantly trying to stir the pot regarding anything LEO related. I see them constantly in the shout box, boasting on how they like to "rile" all the cops up any chance they get.
Take the good information that was provided here to you here and run with it. Good luck in your selection process and let us know how you make out.
Stay safe out there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, I'm really sorry now that I brought this here. I was looking for new and interesting ideas from a broad spectrum of experiences. For the most part I got some great ideas and I am thankful for that, however, I'm not trying to start an online fight with anyone. Everyone has a right to their opinions but since I explained that the weapons will be select fire, how many times should the select fire vs semi-auto be rehashed? As far as explaining the need for them I don't think I want to go into scenerios or our operational capabilities. Here in Ohio civilians can own f/a weapons and suppressors, so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? Especially with the number of LEO's killed int he line of duty in the last 18 months. I have 15 yrs of experience OTJ, 10 as a Sgt, and 6+ on SWAT. I was never in the military due to having cancer 3x when I was 12, 13, and 14 yrs old. I wanted to be, but they wouldn't take me since I had that. So I have tried to serve my community the best way I can. I hope that this thread can take a more positive turn. </div></div>
Dude, this is a great site with a wealth of information coming from a shitload of experienced people from all walks of life. Don't let a couple of dicks throw the topic off course.
Whether you want select fire, burst or a fucking 40mm chaingun that isn't for people on here to decide or question. Don't feel the need to justify or explain to anyone, especially the few douchebags here that are constantly trying to stir the pot regarding anything LEO related. I see them constantly in the shout box, boasting on how they like to "rile" all the cops up any chance they get.
Take the good information that was provided here to you here and run with it. Good luck in your selection process and let us know how you make out.
Stay safe out there.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Slapchop,
I'm not in disagreement with a LE agency's right to properly and accordingly arm themselves in response to future threats.
If a guy posts that his department needs a AC-130 because they have drug cartels running a muck. SURE! Why freaking not? Need a Barrett because of an armored car hijacking? I agree. Live in a port city and have an issue with Cigarette boats loaded down with Columbian coke? Try a 240B! Make sure to add a red dot.
But the OP just said that his opinion for the increase in weapons was based off of AMERICAN citizens properly and legally exercising their 2nd Amendment rights. Not drug cartels, russian mob, neo nazis, or one of a billion other problems that we have in that states that would RIGHTFULLY JUSTIFY an increase in in Law Enforcement weaponry and ordnance.
Blue Line. What is the major type of crime that your city has?
Slapchop,
I'm not in disagreement with a LE agency's right to properly and accordingly arm themselves in response to future threats.
If a guy posts that his department needs a AC-130 because they have drug cartels running a muck. SURE! Why freaking not? Need a Barrett because of an armored car hijacking? I agree. Live in a port city and have an issue with Cigarette boats loaded down with Columbian coke? Try a 240B! Make sure to add a red dot.
But the OP just said that his opinion for the increase in weapons was based off of AMERICAN citizens properly and legally exercising their 2nd Amendment rights. Not drug cartels, russian mob, neo nazis, or one of a billion other problems that we have in that states that would RIGHTFULLY JUSTIFY an increase in in Law Enforcement weaponry and ordnance.
Blue Line. What is the major type of crime that your city has?
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Wow...Can't believe the direction this went!!!!!!!!!!
Again to OP, F/A Colt Commando and your done....mod it as you like! DONE!!!
Wow...Can't believe the direction this went!!!!!!!!!!
Again to OP, F/A Colt Commando and your done....mod it as you like! DONE!!!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
J. Moe,
I have to own some of it as I went out to meet my wife at a party after my shift last night and came home semi-stupid.
Chris
J. Moe,
I have to own some of it as I went out to meet my wife at a party after my shift last night and came home semi-stupid.
Chris
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J. Moe,
I have to own some of it as I went out to meet my wife at a party after my shift last night and came home semi-stupid.
Chris </div></div>
It's okay man. You came back and explained what you said which I've got to say is very big of you.
Sorry I flew off the handle myself about that.
As alot of guys have accuratly said your quest is for more than the "Latest and Greatest", but that wouldn't hurt providing your supply chain can provide all the extremely necessary parts BEFORE you need them. There is nothing worse than a broken gun and no funds for parts.
A good idea would be to find all the LE supply channels that you can find and make a note of what they have an excess of in relation to the weapon system that you are seeking.
You can't simply decide to go with anything that a civilian owns such as a Noveske, Daniel Defense, or even a LWRC rifle. They are usually swamped with orders by civilians on top of military personnel for orders, and you should pick a method of supply that gives you and your department carte blanche. This is essential to keep your armory up and running.
If you don't have a supply section then you might want to make it a point to your superiors to invest for it, and if you can, your department. If you already have one then you should invest time with them. I have done a lot of work for my soldiers when both me and my supply section were on top of my section's and my soldier's needs.
Also try to ask for demo weapons for your department to try out. Disregard any idea of how a weapon looks(ignore terms like "badass" or "tacticool"). Do research on what has consistently been battle proven for the military. Most of the time rifles such as that have gone through more rounds than any civilian could put through them in a comparable time.
Surpressors are the same thing. You need something BATTLEFIELD reliable as well as a good supply chain to back it up in case it goes down.
There is nothing worse than telling your boss that your team is down and can't accomplish it's mission, over something as stupid as broken parts.
Oh, and don't be worried about some crazy idiot who lives in a log cabin and has too many guns, and I won't worry about you coming to steal my guns. LOL.
If you need any more help then send me a PM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J. Moe,
I have to own some of it as I went out to meet my wife at a party after my shift last night and came home semi-stupid.
Chris </div></div>
It's okay man. You came back and explained what you said which I've got to say is very big of you.
Sorry I flew off the handle myself about that.
As alot of guys have accuratly said your quest is for more than the "Latest and Greatest", but that wouldn't hurt providing your supply chain can provide all the extremely necessary parts BEFORE you need them. There is nothing worse than a broken gun and no funds for parts.
A good idea would be to find all the LE supply channels that you can find and make a note of what they have an excess of in relation to the weapon system that you are seeking.
You can't simply decide to go with anything that a civilian owns such as a Noveske, Daniel Defense, or even a LWRC rifle. They are usually swamped with orders by civilians on top of military personnel for orders, and you should pick a method of supply that gives you and your department carte blanche. This is essential to keep your armory up and running.
If you don't have a supply section then you might want to make it a point to your superiors to invest for it, and if you can, your department. If you already have one then you should invest time with them. I have done a lot of work for my soldiers when both me and my supply section were on top of my section's and my soldier's needs.
Also try to ask for demo weapons for your department to try out. Disregard any idea of how a weapon looks(ignore terms like "badass" or "tacticool"). Do research on what has consistently been battle proven for the military. Most of the time rifles such as that have gone through more rounds than any civilian could put through them in a comparable time.
Surpressors are the same thing. You need something BATTLEFIELD reliable as well as a good supply chain to back it up in case it goes down.
There is nothing worse than telling your boss that your team is down and can't accomplish it's mission, over something as stupid as broken parts.
Oh, and don't be worried about some crazy idiot who lives in a log cabin and has too many guns, and I won't worry about you coming to steal my guns. LOL.
If you need any more help then send me a PM.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Arm, Thanks I appreciate that. I'm working on POF for their P416. I spoke with Phoneix PD SAU and was able to get their 37 page test of the POF vs Colt Commando. I must shoot this weapon!!! Regarding "Badass" and "Tacticool" what about CDI (Chick's Dig It)? LOL. As far as explaining myself, I'm the first one to tell ya, I don't know everything and I am willing to learn. What kind of guns do you have and what is your address??? There is still some room in MY safe.
Arm, Thanks I appreciate that. I'm working on POF for their P416. I spoke with Phoneix PD SAU and was able to get their 37 page test of the POF vs Colt Commando. I must shoot this weapon!!! Regarding "Badass" and "Tacticool" what about CDI (Chick's Dig It)? LOL. As far as explaining myself, I'm the first one to tell ya, I don't know everything and I am willing to learn. What kind of guns do you have and what is your address??? There is still some room in MY safe.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Always T/E when possible. Not a fanboy but all our colts have been solid through many generations of builds. But yes, test all, find what your guys like, the AR platform is the way to go for several years. I will disagree with some members that there are an ASSLOAD of operators on this site, that know about this stuff, though the focus is on precision, tactical, etc.
Always T/E when possible. Not a fanboy but all our colts have been solid through many generations of builds. But yes, test all, find what your guys like, the AR platform is the way to go for several years. I will disagree with some members that there are an ASSLOAD of operators on this site, that know about this stuff, though the focus is on precision, tactical, etc.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Arm, Thanks I appreciate that. I'm working on POF for their P416. I spoke with Phoneix PD SAU and was able to get their 37 page test of the POF vs Colt Commando. I must shoot this weapon!!! Regarding "Badass" and "Tacticool" what about CDI (Chick's Dig It)? LOL. As far as explaining myself, I'm the first one to tell ya, I don't know everything and I am willing to learn. What kind of guns do you have and what is your address??? There is still some room in MY safe. </div></div>
Chicks dig it? Does this mean you're going to paint the Hello Kitty thing on all your weapons? LOL.
Don't worry about that room in your safe it will fill up VERY quickly with each year you spend on this site. LMAO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Arm, Thanks I appreciate that. I'm working on POF for their P416. I spoke with Phoneix PD SAU and was able to get their 37 page test of the POF vs Colt Commando. I must shoot this weapon!!! Regarding "Badass" and "Tacticool" what about CDI (Chick's Dig It)? LOL. As far as explaining myself, I'm the first one to tell ya, I don't know everything and I am willing to learn. What kind of guns do you have and what is your address??? There is still some room in MY safe. </div></div>
Chicks dig it? Does this mean you're going to paint the Hello Kitty thing on all your weapons? LOL.
Don't worry about that room in your safe it will fill up VERY quickly with each year you spend on this site. LMAO.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in Ohio civilians can own f/a weapons and suppressors, so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? </div></div>
No, but is that the ONLY basis for your department needing F/A weapons? You might want to check on how you worded that. I was under the impression from what YOU said in this topic that it was old MP5s. I was even willing to give you the benefit that your department might have pick up a dealer with an AK, but geesh.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? Especially with the number of LEO's killed int he line of duty in the last 18 months</div></div>
How many were killed by civilians with full auto weapons and surpressors?
IMHO. You just destroyed your argument for having any F/A weapons. Why?
You listed your concern as being civilians and not criminals. </div></div>
The OP doesn't need your approval to get a FA weapon. He already stated what his department wanted. Stop being a clown. Your just a fireman. Go drag a hose.............
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in Ohio civilians can own f/a weapons and suppressors, so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? </div></div>
No, but is that the ONLY basis for your department needing F/A weapons? You might want to check on how you worded that. I was under the impression from what YOU said in this topic that it was old MP5s. I was even willing to give you the benefit that your department might have pick up a dealer with an AK, but geesh.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so my question is should WE (LEO's) be more poorly armed? Especially with the number of LEO's killed int he line of duty in the last 18 months</div></div>
How many were killed by civilians with full auto weapons and surpressors?
IMHO. You just destroyed your argument for having any F/A weapons. Why?
You listed your concern as being civilians and not criminals. </div></div>
The OP doesn't need your approval to get a FA weapon. He already stated what his department wanted. Stop being a clown. Your just a fireman. Go drag a hose.............
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Not to argue with the OP, but FA is a great way to get members of the SWAT team sued or prosecuted. Frankly, IMHO, there are very, very few situations in police work in which FA would be used properly. Same for frag grenades. Same for 50 BMG. Same for 20mm cannon on top of an armored vehicle. You get the idea. I am not saying I want SWAT to take risks by not being properly armed. But I would not want SWAT to get itself in trouble by overdoing things. There is already enough concern about militarization of the police forces.
Not to argue with the OP, but FA is a great way to get members of the SWAT team sued or prosecuted. Frankly, IMHO, there are very, very few situations in police work in which FA would be used properly. Same for frag grenades. Same for 50 BMG. Same for 20mm cannon on top of an armored vehicle. You get the idea. I am not saying I want SWAT to take risks by not being properly armed. But I would not want SWAT to get itself in trouble by overdoing things. There is already enough concern about militarization of the police forces.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to argue with the OP, but FA is a great way to get members of the SWAT team sued or prosecuted. Frankly, IMHO, there are very, very few situations in police work in which FA would be used properly. Same for frag grenades. Same for 50 BMG. Same for 20mm cannon on top of an armored vehicle. You get the idea. I am not saying I want SWAT to take risks by not being properly armed. But I would not want SWAT to get itself in trouble by overdoing things. There is already enough concern about militarization of the police forces. </div></div>
Aren't you an attorney? Then STFU!!!! He already stated what the department is getting. All you losers that chose to debate on FA and SA are off topic!!!! STFU!!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to argue with the OP, but FA is a great way to get members of the SWAT team sued or prosecuted. Frankly, IMHO, there are very, very few situations in police work in which FA would be used properly. Same for frag grenades. Same for 50 BMG. Same for 20mm cannon on top of an armored vehicle. You get the idea. I am not saying I want SWAT to take risks by not being properly armed. But I would not want SWAT to get itself in trouble by overdoing things. There is already enough concern about militarization of the police forces. </div></div>
Aren't you an attorney? Then STFU!!!! He already stated what the department is getting. All you losers that chose to debate on FA and SA are off topic!!!! STFU!!!!!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
Bad guys like the family pet or returning Iraqi Vet?
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times
Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
Just when you thought this thread MAY take a positive turn lol.
Just when you thought this thread MAY take a positive turn lol.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: importsstillsuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times </div></div>
If deadly force is authorized, it doesn't matter how many times someone gets shot. Police can shoot until the threat is stopped. All you liberal left wing clowns can STFU!!!! Cops need to quit posting on the hide too. I am tired of all the posers on this site!!!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: importsstillsuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times </div></div>
If deadly force is authorized, it doesn't matter how many times someone gets shot. Police can shoot until the threat is stopped. All you liberal left wing clowns can STFU!!!! Cops need to quit posting on the hide too. I am tired of all the posers on this site!!!!!!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: importsstillsuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times </div></div>.
If you don't like it in the US, GTFO!!!!! You may be happier in France. You would fit right in there.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: importsstillsuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only in America does no knock warrants occur and the occupants get shot 60 times </div></div>.
If you don't like it in the US, GTFO!!!!! You may be happier in France. You would fit right in there.......
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
What about Wilson combat...ever checked into them?
What about Wilson combat...ever checked into them?
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
OP...I am sorry the way this has gone.
POSER H, with your 37 posts coming in and saying cops should not post on the HIDE...you too can GTFO. Many of the cops on here are former military, current military, avid hunters and competitive shooters. Please return to your site, "I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am!, and all is well.
And that's one of many as to why I am not a mod.
OP...back on track. Also worth playing with are your barrel lengths and bullet choices. Fan of the Hornady TAP in that role and various good bullet weights. 10.5", 11.5", 12.5" and 14.5" all can play a little different dep. on what your throwin' out of em'.
Since I'm a cop, I don't rate....OUT! Jeff.
OP...I am sorry the way this has gone.
POSER H, with your 37 posts coming in and saying cops should not post on the HIDE...you too can GTFO. Many of the cops on here are former military, current military, avid hunters and competitive shooters. Please return to your site, "I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am!, and all is well.
And that's one of many as to why I am not a mod.
OP...back on track. Also worth playing with are your barrel lengths and bullet choices. Fan of the Hornady TAP in that role and various good bullet weights. 10.5", 11.5", 12.5" and 14.5" all can play a little different dep. on what your throwin' out of em'.
Since I'm a cop, I don't rate....OUT! Jeff.
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
First of all, I am not anti LE. I just feel that cops posting on here opens the door for left wing wackos like Marduk to attack LE. There are better places for the OP to get info from.......sources here may not be credible. You have mistaken me. I'll excuse you from making the comment about my post count. I just like exposing posers!!!!
First of all, I am not anti LE. I just feel that cops posting on here opens the door for left wing wackos like Marduk to attack LE. There are better places for the OP to get info from.......sources here may not be credible. You have mistaken me. I'll excuse you from making the comment about my post count. I just like exposing posers!!!!
Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon
My mistake PH...Duly noted. I would def. agree with you on people giving advice that have no merit in doing so...but there are so many on here who can. My apologies my friend! J
My mistake PH...Duly noted. I would def. agree with you on people giving advice that have no merit in doing so...but there are so many on here who can. My apologies my friend! J
