Looking for simple secure cell phone.

[Bakwa]

I'm not sure if what I'm looking for exist.
I find myself in need of a new phone and want something that isn't as vulnerable to big tech, China, data sellers, etc. I just don't like leaving a big footprint.
I would go to a dumb phone like the non GPS Nokia, but I have to have the Signal messaging app. This is my only real non-negotiable.
I've seen dumb phones with whatsapp pre-programed into them. Does this mean that I can do the same with Signal?
Anyway, It's looking more and more like I'll either have to go with a Blackberry or similar or learn to tinker with a Linux OS, but I'm probably overlooking a whole slew of options.
Please help.

Oh, I'm in the US and currently use AT&T.
Cheers

 

[Sleddog30]

I don’t believe Signal is open source. But, you can use it with the Debian OS or MacOS. Debian is usually a desktop/server OS. I run it on our SCADA servers. But I have never seen a phone running it. Debian is a derivative of Linux, but it has evolved past what Linux will ever be. The latest release is call “Buster”. I don’t believe they have released anything newer.

With an iPhone you can turn off location services. Apple is known for not assisting any agency in accessing one of their phones.

I don’t like the Samsung phones or any phone that runs Android software. So take that for what it’s worth.

 

[6.5SH]

If it has an app it's not a dumb phone. That one is a Nokia but is pretty much a dedicated facebook ecosystem spy device.

A "degoogled" phone may be what you are looking for but no phone is truly secure and are making many compromises when choosing something like that.

 

[John's Friend]

When you say secure.. there are levels. I looked into "secure phones" a while back. There are several vendors, they're all expensive.

Not knowing the level of security needed, I'm not sure I'd be of much help. I think, all the secure phones on the market are vulnerable to Harris products. And, Harris may not be the best. Cracking the phones security is a different matter and, that's out of my knowledge neighborhood.

Check these people out. When reading about them, they looked interesting.

The best cell hack I've ever witnessed, first hand, was done with Israeli hardware. Jaw dropping at the time.

https://toughmobile2.bittium.com/

Wikiwand - Harris Corporation

Harris Corporation was an American technology company, defense contractor, and information technology services provider that produced wireless equipment, tactical radios, electronic systems, night vision equipment and both terrestrial and spaceborne antennas for use in the government, defense...

www.wikiwand.com

This is old info but, the theory of operation is still accurate.

Wikiwand - Stingray phone tracker

The StingRay is an IMSI-catcher, a cellular phone surveillance device, manufactured by Harris Corporation. Initially developed for the military and intelligence community, the StingRay and similar Harris devices are in widespread use by local and state law enforcement agencies across Canada, the...

www.wikiwand.com

 

[Smitty192]

I would assume any and all cell phones are compromised, at the very least the voice calls and text are recorded. I wouldn't be confident you could purchase one anonymously. I am under no illusion that anything is private or secure anymore.

But that is just my cynical and non-expert opinion.

 

[Tchitcherine]

"If you don't want anyone to know what you're saying, don't use the telephone." - Nelson Rockefeller (?)

 

[W54/XM-388]

Debian is a derivative of Linux, but it has evolved past what Linux will ever be. The latest release is call “Buster”. I don’t believe they have released anything newer.

Debian is a Linux distribution, like many other Linux distributions.
It would be a bit of a stretch to say that it "evolved past Linux" since it's entirely dependent on the base Linux core kernel software that is constantly updated.
What it does do is wrap a pretty good ecosystem and GUI choices around the primary Linux kernel and make package management easy.
It actually is usually a bit behind the cutting edge as it's geared a bit more towards stability.
There are also other distributions that base their distro off Debian.

That being said, Debian infected itself with the SystemD monstrosity pushed by Red Hat and that Pottering guy so now some black box blob runs your system and keeps taking more functions for itself. Unfortunately a large number of other distributions have followed suite, which sucks.

There are some rebel freedom loving distributions out there that refuse to be absorbed into the borg that is SystemD, however they are mostly run by greybeards and are not new user friendly.

The closest thing I think we'll get to a Linux based phone that actually works well is the Librem phone, but they have been going at it for several years now and still don't have full production or all the software worked out.

 

[Baron23]

 

[TurboTrout]

Honestly read the privacy statements, iPhones with a few settings tweaks and a VPN are pretty safe while still being useful.

I did a ton of research of map apps, ended up just reloading Apple Maps.

There are a few custom hardware phones running Linux, but they are spendy, less useful, and only very slightly better than just getting a iphone, going through the settings and not installing a ton of junk apps on it, use complex passwords (numbers, upper, lower and a symbol) for everything, find a good password convention and use a different password for each thing, if you use the same password for everything your phone is now as strong as your weakest use of that password, be cautious with biometric passwords, and saved passwords/usernames/CC info, etc

Breakdown on message apps

Secure Messaging Apps Comparison | Privacy Matters

This site compares secure messaging apps from a security & privacy point of view. These include Facebook Messenger, iMessage, Skype, Signal, Google Allo, Threema, Riot, Wire, Telegram, and Wickr. The best secure messaging app?

www.securemessagingapps.com

View installing software as injecting yourself with something, might be a bad thing, might have a interaction with something else etc.

The other aspect if data, I’d move your email domain to protonmail, he very wary of any information stored or sent in the clear in a 14 eyes country

Privacy wise another issue is your service, shy of getting a prepaid, not giving any data and paying your bill from prepaid cards, not using that phone number for anything and only calling via a separate voip main number over VPNed (non 14 eyes and non logging) data connection.

Even at that point if that phone is in close proximity to others it’s easy to associate that number with those people, or if it always goes back to the same home, well even I can find the owner of a home with a free hunting app.

So it’s a balance between basically having a phone that’s nearly useless as a normal phone, and having something you can navigate on the road with, get email, have your kids call you, etc but isnt Fort Knox

Again, just get a iPhone, keep it updated, have a VPN, go over the settings and read privacy statements

 

[W54/XM-388]

Honestly read the privacy statements, iPhones with a few settings tweaks and a VPN are pretty safe while still being useful.

I did a ton of research of map apps, ended up just reloading Apple Maps.

There are a few custom hardware phones running Linux, but they are spendy, less useful, and only very slightly better than just getting a iphone, going through the settings and not installing a ton of junk apps on it.

Breakdown on message apps

Secure Messaging Apps Comparison | Privacy Matters

This site compares secure messaging apps from a security & privacy point of view. These include Facebook Messenger, iMessage, Skype, Signal, Google Allo, Threema, Riot, Wire, Telegram, and Wickr. The best secure messaging app?

www.securemessagingapps.com

View installing software as injecting yourself with something, might be a bad thing, might have a interaction with something else etc.

The other aspect if data, I’d move your email domain to protonmail, he very wary of any information stored or sent in the clear in a 14 eyes country

Privacy wise another issue is your service, shy of getting a prepaid, not giving any data and paying your bill from prepaid cards, not using that phone number for anything and only calling via a separate voip main number over VPNed (non 14 eyes and non logging) data connection.

Even at that point if that phone is in close proximity to others it’s easy to associate that number with those people, or if it always goes back to the same home, well even I can find the owner of a home with a free hunting app.

So it’s a balance between basically having a phone that’s nearly useless as a normal phone, and having something you can navigate on the road with, get email, have your kids call you, etc but isnt Fort Knox

Again, just get a iPhone, keep it updated, have a VPN, go over the settings and read privacy statements

If you are actually concerned about the 5 eyes types, an iPhone will not even be a speedbump to them having your data in real time if the adults in the room actually are interested in you. If those types want you, use a typewriter...

If you are really concerned about your e-mail, why not run your own mail server that you fully control?

If you want more secure messaging, grab the matrix software stack, and run it on your own server under your control.

 

[SilentStalkr]

If you want private, leave phones, go pick person up you want to talk to, drive off grid, park car, hike at least 1 Mile, have conversation and hike back. Alternatively, you can leave messages in books, you know old school craft.

 

[AMGtuned]

I'm not sure if what I'm looking for exist.
I find myself in need of a new phone and want something that isn't as vulnerable to big tech, China, data sellers, etc. I just don't like leaving a big footprint.
I would go to a dumb phone like the non GPS Nokia, but I have to have the Signal messaging app. This is my only real non-negotiable.
I've seen dumb phones with whatsapp pre-programed into them. Does this mean that I can do the same with Signal?
Anyway, It's looking more and more like I'll either have to go with a Blackberry or similar or learn to tinker with a Linux OS, but I'm probably overlooking a whole slew of options.
Please help.

Oh, I'm in the US and currently use AT&T.
Cheers

Silent Circle

Katim R01

I got some help from @THEIS a while back on a similar topic. Might be what you're looking for

 

[ma smith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but e911 and other FCC regulations were set require phones to be running gps by now. You would probably need some kind of old school hardware to get around these regs, just something to keep in mind. Haven't researched this in a while.

Location tracking probe expands despite 2001 FCC law requiring all phones track users | AppleInsider

The US House and Senate is widening investigations into mobile location tracking, despite a federal mandate on the books since 2001 that requires wireless carriers to track the location of users.

appleinsider.com

FCC To Strengthen Location Accuracy Requirements For All Carriers Using E911 By 2019 | TechCrunch

After years of having a GPS-equipped phone, the idea of not having GPS is a little crazy. Even with smartphone adoption rates dramatically increasing, there are still plenty of folks out there with maps and awesome memories. With all of this great mobile technology out there, it's only fair that...

techcrunch.com

 

[Spock]

Burner phone pay in cash dump every two weeks. Otherwise prepare to be monitored. Sorry gotta go and find a hammer.

 

[6.5SH]

Burner phone pay in cash dump every two weeks. Otherwise prepare to be monitored. Sorry gotta go and find a hammer.

Toss that sucker on top of a railroad car.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Burner phone pay in cash dump every two weeks. Otherwise prepare to be monitored. Sorry gotta go and find a hammer.

Toss that sucker on top of a railroad car.

That was going to be my suggestion.................a burner phone from the Walmart.

But..................................if you asked the question here, isn't it already too late??????????????

 

[John's Friend]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but e911 and other FCC regulations were set require phones to be running gps by now. You would probably need some kind of old school hardware to get around these regs, just something to keep in mind. Haven't researched this in a while.

Location tracking probe expands despite 2001 FCC law requiring all phones track users | AppleInsider

The US House and Senate is widening investigations into mobile location tracking, despite a federal mandate on the books since 2001 that requires wireless carriers to track the location of users.

appleinsider.com

FCC To Strengthen Location Accuracy Requirements For All Carriers Using E911 By 2019 | TechCrunch

After years of having a GPS-equipped phone, the idea of not having GPS is a little crazy. Even with smartphone adoption rates dramatically increasing, there are still plenty of folks out there with maps and awesome memories. With all of this great mobile technology out there, it's only fair that...

techcrunch.com

I'm not up on the very latest phones but, GPS can be turned off on a per app basis or completely, on most phones.

The other common "cell site" location system uses a Trilateration algorithm (similar to that used with GPS) to locate the device. Accuracy is dependent on a lot of stuff.

Cell Phone Trilateration Algorithm - 101 Computing

Mobile phone tracking is a process for identifying the location of a mobile phone, whether stationary or moving. Localisation may occur either via multilateration of radio signals between several cell towers and the phone, or simply via GPS. Mobile positioning is used by telecommunications...

www.101computing.net

​

How GPS Receivers Work - Trilateration vs Triangulation - GIS Geography

Have you ever wondered how your GPS receiver works? They use a technique called trilateration, which measures distances, not angles as in triangulation.

gisgeography.com

The only really secure methods are a secure meeting (as mentioned above) or maybe, using a "One-Time Pad".

How secure does the OP need to be?

One-time pad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rtB]

My wife tried a two time pad, didn't work. So definitely stick with one time pads.

 

[smoooth1]

Jitterbug.....you’re welcome

 

[TurboTrout]

If you are actually concerned about the 5 eyes types, an iPhone will not even be a speedbump to them having your data in real time if the adults in the room actually are interested in you. If those types want you, use a typewriter...

If you are really concerned about your e-mail, why not run your own mail server that you fully control?

If you want more secure messaging, grab the matrix software stack, and run it on your own server under your control.

If they really want you for sure, I just figure you’re less likely to have your emails and whatnot mass harvested if it’s hosting with proton and your traffic is through a no logs VPN that’s in a similar jurisdiction. Just a balance I guess, somewhere between having your door unlocked and all your passwords as “password”, vs having trenches, machine guns, a mote, and not owning any device that transmits lol

 

[acudaowner]

the tin cups and a string is about the only secure phone you will ever be able to get anything digital can is and will be hacked either by someone not trying to listen on your conversations or by a government that is listening in on your conversation for key words not mention trackable from anywhere at any time and you will never know when someone else turns on the cam to watch you . good luck and have fun .

 

[John's Friend]

An encrypted 1 TB Micro SD Card can contain a lot of data. Many have thought about that kind of Air Transport. I spent some time thinking about a waterproof, reusable container for pigeon travel.

 

[ma smith]

I'm not up on the very latest phones but, GPS can be turned off on a per app basis or completely, on most phones.

e911 isn't an app, its a built in (hardware) feature so 911/emergency services can track you. its not user controlled in that sense like app-store or apple/google apps. FCC mandate is govt/quasi government required.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Just to drop some info, while I don't know the specifics here's what I can share.

I know a person working for a Cyber company. Part of the work is using compiled data. The data doesn't contain "names" but has an ID, LAT/LONG, Time Stamp (more data really but to keep the conversation simple). Instructions are to "see what you can do with this data". Said individual was able to use the data and a few algorithms to devise a process to correlate the data down from 100,000's of IDs to a 10,000 IDs. Then show the IDs are of people who are "same ID" or "meeting with another ID". What I think was the scary part was the data points gave two different IDs for the EXACT same time, the EXACT same location. Which I was told would be impossible to happen it there was two different people/two different devices at the same area meeting. SO they were able to show the two IDs are actually the same person.
Just think of what happens when they tie into video cameras, public or private.

As I said I haven't seen the specifics in real time, when I do I could share what I learn.
Don't want to be tracked?? Don't use a cell phone PERIOD. Want to limit the ability to be tracked?? Use the cell phone sparingly.

 

[John's Friend]

e911 isn't an app, its a built in (hardware) feature so 911/emergency services can track you. its not user controlled in that sense like app-store or apple/google apps. FCC mandate is govt/quasi government required.

Yeah, I understand the system. I'm not up on all OSs / Firmware but, with Android and I think iOS, the ELS can be disabled. Most features in phones can be altered.

Snip
For Android:

Turn emergency location service on or off​

You can turn emergency location services on or off at any time.

1. Swipe down from the top of the screen.
2. Touch and hold Location
   
   .
   • If you don't find Location
     
     , tap Edit
     
     or Settings
     
     . Then drag Location
     
     into your Quick Settings.
3. Tap Advanced
   
   Emergency Location Service.
4. Turn Emergency Location Service on or off.

Manage your Android device’s location settings - Google Account Help

In the coming months, the Location History setting name will change to Timeline. If Location History is turned on for your account, you may find Timeline in your app and account settings. You ca

support.google.com

Turn Location Services and GPS on or off on your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch - Apple Support

Learn how to turn Location Services and GPS on or off for individual apps.

support.apple.com

How to Turn Off Location Services and Stop Your iPhone Apps From Tracking You

Customizing location settings to protect your privacy can be confusing and complicated for the average user. Here's how to control what Apple and app makers know about your whereabouts.

www.pcmag.com

 

[Bakwa]

Gents,

I appreciate the responses.

It's not that I'm afraid of being tracked by the US gov. If they want info on you, it's not that hard to figure things out with their resources.
My concern is more with big tech, private groups, etc. I just don't want to contribute to these types of mass data collection, or at least I want to minimize what I freely give.

Keep in mind, a phone is like a purse. You wouldn't keep something in a purse that would be too devastating if it were stolen. That's what a vault is for.

For convenience sake [and for work], I carry a cell. There's no getting around that for me. I was mostly asking if there was something out there that passed around minimal info, and was still capable of housing the Signal app.

As of right now, I'm leaning towards just picking up an iPhone SE, limiting the user settings accordingly, downloading a VPN & TOR, and downloading Signal.

 

[308pirate]

Running an Android without a google account helps a bit

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Reality of these type of conversations is that just as in physical security...data/cyber security is something people like to talk about improving but nobody is really willing to commit to the inconveniences of said security.

Security is not convenient and never will be.
Not many are willing to roll back their day to day lives in order to achieve it.

Grim reality is that if someone or gov wants to see what you are doing in real time; it is a pretty simple process.
Shit...I can lease a satellite in 24hr blocks and tell you how many blueberries you put in your oatmeal after your 3 mile morning jog that you cheated yourself by taking the shortcut across the lakes bridge.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[NoDopes]

Opt out of global data surveillance programs like PRISM, XKeyscore, and Tempora - PRISM Break - PRISM Break

Opt out of global data surveillance programs like PRISM, XKeyscore and Tempora. Help make mass surveillance of entire populations uneconomical! We all have a right to privacy, which you can exercise today by encrypting your communications and ending your reliance on proprietary services.

prism-break.org

 

[TurboTrout]

Running an Android without a google account helps a bit

Is that even possible, don’t think you can even look at a android without it phoning the mothership about it

 

[kortik]

Kyocera duraXV Extreme

 

[SilentStalkr]

Kyocera duraXV Extreme

This a phone or a condom?

 

[Tchitcherine]

Kyocera duraXV Extreme

Which if any of OP's requirements does this meet?

 

[kortik]

Which if any of OP's requirements does this meet?

It's a simple secure phone and OP can evaluate it to meet his requirements.

This a phone or a condom?

Not sure how you can use a phone as a condom, but if you can, you're the best of the best.

 

[John's Friend]

Is that even possible, don’t think you can even look at a android without it phoning the mothership about it

How to Use Android Without Google: Everything You Need to Know

Want to use Android without Google? Here's a full guide to going Google-free on your Android device to regain privacy control.

www.makeuseof.com

 

[TurboTrout]

How to Use Android Without Google: Everything You Need to Know

Want to use Android without Google? Here's a full guide to going Google-free on your Android device to regain privacy control.

www.makeuseof.com

Has anyone put the phone on a WiFi network and analyzed the traffic and packets after doing this?

Android is google, and it doesn’t seem like google to give people a opt out from them perving our on your data

 

[dieselsmoke]

I would think that keeping it off in a metal box (i.e. Faraday cage) and then using only briefly before dropping back off would help in addition to everything said above. I know being inside my steel-sheathed pole building...it goes from 4 bars LTE to 1 bar of 1x.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I would think that keeping it off in a metal box (i.e. Faraday cage) and then using only briefly before dropping back off would help in addition to everything said above. I know being inside my steel-sheathed pole building...it goes from 4 bars LTE to 1 bar of 1x.

IF you get the correct type of anti-static bag for computer components, that will pretty much entirely block the cell phone signal as well.
(NOT the transparent or translucent ones).
That's pretty easy to drop a phone into, roll up and put in your pocket.
Of course still turn the phone off.

 

[silentwoods]

Rob Braxman on YouTube, and this link will get you as close as you will get.

If you watch his videos he goes into details.

Rob Braxman

Internet Privacy Evangelist, Cybersecurity Expert, Software Architect, and Jazz Pianist

brax.me

 

[Feurhand]

Is that even possible, don’t think you can even look at a android without it phoning the mothership about it

I haven't used it yet, but graphene os removes all google services.

GrapheneOS: the private and secure mobile OS

GrapheneOS is a security and privacy focused mobile OS with Android app compatibility.

grapheneos.org

 

[308pirate]

Is that even possible, don’t think you can even look at a android without it phoning the mothership about it

It is possible. How, I don't know. I bought a cheap Android from PureTalk, it works just fine and I do not have, nor have I ever had, a Google account.

I've never downloaded any aps from the google store or any place for that matter. TOR is the only thing I've ever downloaded to my phone.

 

[Tchitcherine]

It's a simple secure phone and OP can evaluate it to meet his requirements.

Not sure how you can use a phone as a condom, but if you can, you're the best of the best.

"Secure" would be quite an accomplishment.

 

[kortik]

"Secure" would be quite an accomplishment.

You've combined my two different replies to two different posts from two different posters, combining both into what looks like a single post.
On SH, nobody has done it before. Congrats on becoming a pioneer in extreme BS. Nothing personal, strictly business.

 

[SilentStalkr]

It's a simple secure phone and OP can evaluate it to meet his requirements.

Not sure how you can use a phone as a condom, but if you can, you're the best of the best.

Talking about the name. It sounds like a name for some condom variety.

 

[Snuby642]

Lol.

A bit too late to worry about being off the radar after being on this site.

Don't do stupid shit and don't worry .

They know when you get up in the morning and go take a shit.

 

[Animal357]

 

[TXAZ]

I’ve collected, exploited, used or protected comms for most of my career. National agencies still have to work (ok some a little others more) for much of their take, clear or secured.

But people freely give access to mega-tech companies via their EULAs for free apps, search engines or other websites, which collect the very info that intel agencies (may have) killed for in the past. This info, taken in very small bytes/bites, builds very accurate datasets for individual’s habits, businesses’ intent, active Secret Service activities and even the exact location of stored nuclear weapons in their bunkers (and the empty bunkers)

It still depends on who your adversary(s) are, but your iPhone with no apps other than the Signal app (and no SIM card) using WiFi only is as close as you can get today to the privacy you want without hiring a developer.

Privacy is gone for most of the connected world, and most don’t realize it.

Just my 2 cent opinion formed over 30+ years.

 

[Bakwa]

I ended up grabbing a iphone SE and wiped most of the crap off of it, changed the settings to my liking, and put a TOR VPN and Singal on it.
I'm feeling decent about this decision.
If I want to go full reward like some of your are talking about, then I'll carry it around in tin foil or something. lol

 

[6.5SH]

I ended up grabbing a iphone SE and wiped most of the crap off of it, changed the settings to my liking, and put a TOR VPN and Singal on it.
I'm feeling decent about this decision.
If I want to go full reward like some of your are talking about, then I'll carry it around in tin foil or something. lol

These work fine:

Amazon.com: Signal Blocking Bag, ONEVER GPS RFID Faraday Bag Shield Cage Pouch Wallet Phone Case for Cell Phone Privacy Protection and Car Key FOB, Anti-Tracking Anti-Spying

Amazon.com: Signal Blocking Bag, ONEVER GPS RFID Faraday Bag Shield Cage Pouch Wallet Phone Case for Cell Phone Privacy Protection and Car Key FOB, Anti-Tracking Anti-Spying

www.amazon.com

 

[AKMarty]

As apps go, the quote was this.

“IF ITS FREE, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT.”