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M118 LR USMC vs Army

So, what's the difference between M118LR and Mk316? I know we've talked about it, but none of the details of what it is.

What specifically is your issue with M118LR? Velocity? Accuracy?
 
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So, what's the difference between M118LR and Mk316? I know we've talked about it, but none of the details of what it is.
From what I remember. Mk316 bullets do not have tar on them and use IMR4064 as the powder which is more temp stable than M118LR's RL15 powder. The Navy did development on mk316 just for that reason if I remember correctly. I've also seen writings on 316 using the 178 Hornady HPBT at times, but I'm not entirely sure if that's true or folks just reproducing the load with that bullet.
 
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So, what's the difference between M118LR and Mk316? I know we've talked about it, but none of the details of what it is.

What specifically is your issue with M118LR? Velocity? Accuracy?
I don't know if there is a specific "machine" that ATK loads GM308M and M2 on but I was told the AB39 was run as GM regarding QC and component tolerance going into the machine.

Per our previous posts, the propellent is not 4064 or any other over-the-counter propellent.
In addition to its' propellent being low flash and low temp sensitive compared to the M118LR, the AB will have tighter ES/SD, and less lot to lot variations.

We have never heard of any runs of the AB39 using any other projo than the 175MK / SKU: 2275.

My experience is that the AB slightly outshoots the M118LR on the short line when ran through a number of different rifles but it really excels at distance where the lower ES/SD have a chance to shine.

I took some crappy phone pics of typical markings for Mk316/AB39 packaging and rounds at the shop.

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Most of the guys (military snipers) I've talked to don't like the M118LR because of accuracy issues. Any of the Mk316 they've gotten they're hands on have told me it's hands down better.

Funny just the other day one of the team shooters shooting AR10's for the USMC messaged me. Our barrel. Having trouble with vertical with the M118LR ammo at a 1k yards. So we talked by email and by phone. What sucks is they are stuck using it for now but I told him.... really simple.... get a couple boxes of Federal or BlackHills or Hornady match etc...if a different brand runs great and your accuracy issues/fliers are gone...then you know for sure it's the ammo (assuming no mechanical issues etc...). I told him to get back to me when he does it.

I don't know the sample size they/he did for velocity testing with the M118 but he got a 45fps extreme spread. I told him to repeat the test but run a 20 shot string and see what happens. I bet it's bigger than 45fps. This is one cause of the vertical that he is seeing is a pretty good bet. Further the distance the bigger the spread. Now factor in conditions etc...

He found in his bolt gun he separated the variance in length (OAL/Base to ogive) into lots of .004" or less it cut his groups from 3/4moa down to about 1/3moa if I recall correctly.
 
Correction on the 4064. I thought that brief had that in it, but what I was remembering was a clone load on a forum.
The Air Force High Power Rifle Team is currently trying to get our GMAT changed over from 118LR to Mk316.
The only way I have been able to get decent results with the 118 is seating the bullets 10 thou deeper before a match to break the seal on the tar. I will be happy once we get 316.

Now.... if only we could find some Mk262...
 
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Most of the guys (military snipers) I've talked to don't like the M118LR because of accuracy issues. Any of the Mk316 they've gotten they're hands on have told me it's hands down better.

Funny just the other day one of the team shooters shooting AR10's for the USMC messaged me. Our barrel. Having trouble with vertical with the M118LR ammo at a 1k yards. So we talked by email and by phone. What sucks is they are stuck using it for now
You may have heard this also....

(this came from 2 VERY close friends that were 0317s with multiple deployments and one of them actually running both school houses before recently retiring as an 0306.)

As recently as about 8 yrs ago, the USMC had both school houses running M118LR in their courses AND deploying with it while there were tons of the Mk316/AB39 in the system to pull.

They were not allowed to even consider pulling the AB39 until they depleted the M118LR which I think they had in the high hundreds of thousands.

The M118LR sucked.
The AB39 was excellent as at one point they were able to get a small quantity to shoot and test.

They requested to at least be allowed to pull AB39 into their deploying teams and just shoot the M118LR for training only until it was depleted.
Hard NO from upstairs command.

Now I have a personal bullshit flag to throw when one of my soldiers or Marines are going to deploy for my country and they can't bring the best we have to offer. Fuck that bureaucratic horse shit with a rusty spoon.

I have to add that this was happening at a time when we saw tons of the Mk316 being easily accessed and used by a LOT of other users including 3 letter agencies. FRUSTRATING!

I would normally hope that both coasts are into the Mk316 by now but with our current DC fucktards killing the entire ScoutSniper program this year, I guess it is a moot concern.

./
 
You may have heard this also....

(this came from 2 VERY close friends that were 0317s with multiple deployments and one of them actually running both school houses before recently retiring as an 0306.)

As recently as about 8 yrs ago, the USMC had both school houses running M118LR in their courses AND deploying with it while there were tons of the Mk316/AB39 in the system to pull.

They were not allowed to even consider pulling the AB39 until they depleted the M118LR which I think they had in the high hundreds of thousands.

The M118LR sucked.
The AB39 was excellent as at one point they were able to get a small quantity to shoot and test.

They requested to at least be allowed to pull AB39 into their deploying teams and just shoot the M118LR for training only until it was depleted.
Hard NO from upstairs command.

Now I have a personal bullshit flag to throw when one of my soldiers or Marines are going to deploy for my country and they can't bring the best we have to offer. Fuck that bureaucratic horse shit with a rusty spoon.

I have to add that this was happening at a time when we saw tons of the Mk316 being easily accessed and used by a LOT of other users including 3 letter agencies. FRUSTRATING!

I would normally hope that both coasts are into the Mk316 by now but with our current DC fucktards killing the entire ScoutSniper program this year, I guess it is a moot concern.

./
Pretty much what I was told face to face. Nothing else for me to add other than to reiterate...

Why do they always have to get the left over shit while everyone else gets the better stuff?
 
M118 Long Range was developed by Lake City and Sierra Bullets in the early 90s when Olin-Winchester had the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant contract. Olin used WC750 ball powder made at the Saint Marks Powder plant in Florida (I believe Olin still owned the plant).

Federal-ATK won the next contract to run Lake City and asked the Army if it could switch powders to RL15 (since ATK makes it at Radford Army Ammunition Plant). The Army agreed as long as loaded ammo made/kept to .mil spec.

It didn't in the heat in Afghanistan and Iraq and was down-loaded. Since then precision has fallen off to where M118 Long Range has been called "Lake Shitty." Anecdotally (I believe the source was Kevin Boland but I don't remember), Knight's couldn't guarantee their rifles could meet the Army's and SOCOM's precision acceptance standards because specified government-provided M118LR won't hold the government's own precision and performance specs.

SOCOM, tired of Lake City's inability to produce precision 7.62 LR, specified a 150- to 200-grain 7.62mm at the older (original), close to "Match" standard. Winner was Mark 316 made on the Federal Gold Medal Match production line in Anoka, Minnesota, using 41.7 grains of IMR 4064 behind a 175 Matchking, producing 2640 fps out of a 24-inch barrel.

Saint Marks proposed temperature-stable SMP768 ball powder to use in legacy government loading machines. I don't think that went anywhere.

Both Lake City and Federal can adjust powder charges to ensure velocity and precision meet standard.

Explaining velocity variations between Marine and Army bolt-action rifles may be as simple as the fact the Marines hand-built their rifles (using barrels and reamers from different sources) while Remington used their own internally-produced hammer-forged barrels.
 
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M118 Long Range was developed by Lake City and Sierra Bullets in the early 90s when Olin-Winchester had the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant contract. Olin used WC750 ball powder made at the Saint Marks Powder plant in Florida (I believe Olin still owned the plant).

Federal-ATK won the next contract to run Lake City and asked the Army if it could switch powders to RL15 (since ATK makes it at Radford Army Ammunition Plant). The Army agreed as long as loaded ammo made/kept to .mil spec.

It didn't in the heat in Afghanistan and Iraq and was down-loaded. Since then precision has fallen off to where M118 Long Range has been called "Lake Shitty." Anecdotally (I believe the source was Kevin Boland but I don't remember), Knight's couldn't guarantee their rifles could meet the Army's and SOCOM's precision acceptance standards because specified government-provided M118LR won't hold the government's own precision and performance specs.

SOCOM, tired of Lake City's inability to produce precision 7.62 LR, specified a 150- to 200-grain 7.62mm at the older (original), close to "Match" standard. Winner was Mark 316 made on the Federal Gold Medal Match production line in Anoka, Minnesota, using 41.7 grains of IMR 4064 behind a 175 Matchking, producing 2640 fps out of a 24-inch barrel.

Saint Marks proposed temperature-stable SMP768 ball powder to use in legacy government loading machines. I don't think that went anywhere.

Both Lake City and Federal can adjust powder charges to ensure velocity and precision meet standard.

Explaining velocity variations between Marine and Army bolt-action rifles may be as simple as the fact the Marines hand-built their rifles (using barrels and reamers from different sources) while Remington used their own internally-produced hammer-forged barrels.
This is really cool info. Thanks mate
 
So Mk316 does use 4064?
I'll say NO!

Direct from the guys I talk to at Federal as we make them test barrels. The powder is similar to 4064 but the powder they use is not available to the public. So you cannot source the powder that Federal uses.

So don't try and duplicate the exact powder charge with 4064 etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Don't have much to add but was shooting with a SMU dude within the last few months at a match and he let me shoot his brand new MK22 with M118LR. Lets just say he was having significant issues hitting big ass plates. It wasn't the gun or the optic or anything but the ammo. The SD/ES was among the worst i have ever seen for factory ammo, much less something supposedly match.

Its one thing to burn up stockpiles of shitty legacy ammo in training but to deploy someone with that hot garbage is borderline treasonous. It also lends some credence to stories of guys deploying with reloaded ammo for their sws. Fuck the regs when you are talking about peoples lives.

Also heard that guys can't get 300nm ammo in the system right now so they are deploying with 308 barrels, which means they are probally deploying with this shit. Makes you absolutely sick to stomach.
 
I added the red text.

We had heard it was a cannister ball powder close to BLC2 /Ball2.
Either way the shit had way too much calcium carbonate stabilizing additive in the blend and it would actually build up in the gas system and sabotage the new M16s. Of course the rifle took all the blame. . . .

Common story going around at one point that Gen Westmoreland had ties to a supplier for some ammunition contracts that ran the 5.56, they knew there were issues with the propellant but went forward anyway because Cha Ching*.

*Disclaimer for the younger viewers: Cha Ching is neither a knock at the native Vietnamese nor an M1 Garand clip ejecting from an empty rifle. It is referring to $ that corrupt fucks want bad enough to compromise the safety of others.
Of course, that would be "Cha Chink".
 
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I think your buddy is full of shit. He had bad data or remembered incorrectly. I've shot a shit ton of M118LR from Bragg, to Colorado, Europe, and Iraq. Out of an M24 2600fps was pretty reliable and consistent. Differing lots absolutely showed trends of higher and lower MV but not 2700fps. M118LR was very temp sensitive which means you would absolutely pressure out and have an unsafe condition at 2700 if you're ammo was so hot it was 100fps faster. So I doubt the SDs would ever be that low. Ask your buddy what years his data is from. If it was derived by something other than a magnetospeed I would be very dubious. First I remember seeing MSpeeds in the military was in 2013 and that was via a pretty high-brow special proof of concept program so it wasn't a couple years later until they were issued to white side SOF. If your buddy's data was from before 2013 I would pretty much disregard it bc it undoubtedly wasn't derived with a modern chronograph.
My current can of M118LR is shooting right at 2720-2730 at 70 degrees. Although mine is out of a 26” barrel. Our current GMAT is switching over to Mk316, which I can’t wait for. 118LR has been absolute crap even with seating the bullets an extra 10 thou to break the seals.
 
Lots of conflicting information out there about what people say, vice what the military specs and pays for by contract.

PLEASE NOTE: M118 7.62 Special Ball Long Range (DOD Ammunition Identification Code AA11) is produced at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant and is meant for Army and other service weapons.

Mark 316 Mod 0 7.62mm Special Ball Long Range (DODIC AB39) is a Navy and USSOCOM cartridge purchased under contract with Federal-ATK.

These two cartridges, while 7.62mm loaded with 175-grain Sierra Matchking bullets are separate, unique ammunition items.

Note on the Army's current M118 Long Range drawing the original dates back to 1960 when M118 Match used the 173-grain Match bullet (modeled after the 30-06 machinegun bullet). It states 44 grains of propellant, which back in the 60s was / may have been IMR 4895.

7.62mm Special Ball was adopted when Lake City ammo could no longer hold Match-specified precision. Boxes went from white box M118 Match to brown box M118 Special Ball. Perhaps Special Ball was a spin-off from Special Olympics.

When Federal loaded M118 Long Range with 44.3 grains of RL-15, 24-inch M24 and M40 rifles were pushing 2750 fps at the muzzle, while 22-inch M14s and M21s were getting 2685 when the heat in Iraq averaged 115 Fahrenheit. This punished the M14/M21 semi-auto gas system and the Leupold M3 BDC turret engraving no longer matched bullet drop.

In 2003 or 2004 (after the start of OIF) the load was backed down to 43.1 of RL-15, and is now at a nominal 42.8.

Mark 316 Mod 0 is for all intents and purposes 175-grain Federal Gold Medal Match 2. The late Roy Meketa noted GM762M2 was loaded with 43.0 grains of 4064. MK 316 Mod 0 headstamped FC 11 was loaded with 43.7 of 4064, while 2009 ammo was loaded with 41.7 grains.

M118LR_jpg-2883954.JPG

MK316_7_62mm_Special_Ball_Ammo_Data_Card-2883959.JPG
 
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Well, that clearly shows 4064 was used
 
It was used but that doesn't mean it is still being used.

I was just told a few months ago the answer is it is not. Again it is similar to 4064 but the powder currently being used is not available to the general public/reloader.
Gotcha. I’ve already done some very limited testing with cloning the velocities of mk316. 41.7 of 4064 put me right where mk316 is advertised as being, but I’m 60ish FPS faster with a 26” barrel. Completely safe load. Landed practically where GRT predicted.

Tested this while I was prepping my 1903A1 for Camp Perry this weekend.
 
It was used but that doesn't mean it is still being used.

I was just told a few months ago the answer is it is not. Again it is similar to 4064 but the powder currently being used is not available to the general public/reloader.
Frank,

Just like many in the LTGBQ+$#@ community, there are some in this thread that really, really, really want to believe something is true.

You could type facts until you wear all the letters off of your keyboard and still be left talking to an audience that chooses not to hear.

./
 
Frank,

Just like many in the LTGBQ+$#@ community, there are some in this thread that really, really, really want to believe something is true.

You could type facts until you wear all the letters off of your keyboard and still be left talking to an audience that chooses not to hear.

./
Yeah.... I'm done typing on this one!

I just want guys to be safe and not get blown up. That's all!
 
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When I tried to duplicate it I think 43gr 4064 was where I ended up. Same with rl15 and m118lr.

All of my loads were with LC brass and pulled 175SMK bullets because before everything went to shit you could get them very cheap.
 
Frank,

Just like many in the LTGBQ+$#@ community, there are some in this thread that really, really, really want to believe something is true.

You could type facts until you wear all the letters off of your keyboard and still be left talking to an audience that chooses not to hear.

./

I don’t think it’s a case of folks wanting it be true, but there is conflicting documentation and members in the industry conflicting each other.
 
Which members of the industry are conflicting each other?

./
Should have been worded as documents and members of industry conflicting each other, my bad. I just wanted the answer of what is used in the ammo which was 4064, but now a powder similar to it not available to the public is used.
 
It was used but that doesn't mean it is still being used.

I was just told a few months ago the answer is it is not. Again it is similar to 4064 but the powder currently being used is not available to the general public/reloader.
Do you know if it's single or double based powder? Any idea what kind of, or type (method of application) of burn retardant is used?

As an aside, 4064 has been around since the fifties. It was the first powder to have a burn retardant used to enhance stability of the spreads. It has changed since IMR now uses 'Enduron' technology.
 
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Frank's notes are solid in that neither Lake City nor Federal get their powder in 1 or 8 pound consumer jugs. Think great big 55-gallon sized cardboard drums on pallets shipped in 18 wheelers.

Are there better bullets and powders than 175s and 4064? ABSOLUTELY. Remember, though, like anything else the United States military buys (especially war materiel), it's got to be manufactured in North America -- so Australian (Varget and Enduron blends) and Euro - Scandinavian - Baltics powders are out.

There are three smokeless powder plants between the United States and Canada -- Saint Marks in Florida (which makes ball powder); ATK - Radford, Virginia (which makes RL-15 and others); and Valleyfield near Montreal (IMR stick powders). That's it. I don't know what's made in Mexico.

M118LR is NOT Mark 316 Mod 0 -- they're cousins, not twins. The shared DNA component is the branded bullet.

M118LR is an average cartridge. Mark 316 is the honor student on the varsity team ... but not a world champion.
 
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Do you know if it's single or double based powder? Any idea what kind of, or type (method of application) of burn retardant is used?

As an aside, 4064 has been around since the fifties. It was the first powder to have a burn retardant used to enhance stability of the spreads. It has changed since IMR now uses 'Enduron' technology.
That I don't know if it's single or double based and what I heard in one comment... I would gather double based but that is my assumption and as to a flame/burn retardant. I would assume it has a burn retardant in the chemical make up but again I cannot confirm that.

I wish I had more info but I don't other than what I'm told.
 
Powder canisters I saw were similar in size to a 35 gallon drum but made of a heavy wall sort of cardboard material with ring clamp on top.
MSDS label was from St Marks, listed as RL15.
I can only guess they were authorized to manufacture RL15.
This was at Lake City around 2010 or so, best I can remember.
 
Re, what’s made in Mexico. OMG, Aguila ammo made to a us govt spec? It would be fabulous!!! 😒
 
Don't have much to add but was shooting with a SMU dude within the last few months at a match and he let me shoot his brand new MK22 with M118LR. Lets just say he was having significant issues hitting big ass plates. It wasn't the gun or the optic or anything but the ammo. The SD/ES was among the worst i have ever seen for factory ammo, much less something supposedly match.

Its one thing to burn up stockpiles of shitty legacy ammo in training but to deploy someone with that hot garbage is borderline treasonous. It also lends some credence to stories of guys deploying with reloaded ammo for their sws. Fuck the regs when you are talking about peoples lives.

Also heard that guys can't get 300nm ammo in the system right now so they are deploying with 308 barrels, which means they are probally deploying with this shit. Makes you absolutely sick to stomach.
Not sure if I believe the first story there. I haven’t seen a new mk22 not group 118 very well. I watched the class burn out 3 barrels in my time so I think I’ve probably watched 10-15 lots of 118. So if that gun didn’t group, it’s an anomaly. I’ll just leave it at that.

300nm is sparse that is true. But deploying guys can still use WM and 2010s.
 
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Maybe it was but when a sotic smu dude can't hit a huge fucking plates ( about 4 moa avg) and then let's us shoot it after the match and we have same issues then it's pretty obvious. Could have been a bad mk5 or other issue like a loose action screw but I doubt it, gun looked brand new like just out of box. Also going to assume homeboy knows how to use a torque wrench and read an instruction manual. If you don't belive me you can look up the match scores and put 2+2 together, but I really don't give a shit to be honest.

118 is ass ammo. It was 15 years ago slinging out of our m24s and sr25s and it still is today.....hence everyone sucking dick to get ahold of 316. The DODIC needs to die.
 
Mk 318 (apparently) introduced the concept of single-lot component sourcing to the .mil

View attachment 8182666
Sorry man I wasn’t referencing that specific part of this topic.

@DeathBeforeDismount i don’t doubt the guys rifle shot poorly, I’m saying, with a lot of experience on that very specific setup, I doubt the issued 118LR is the source. Suppose it’s possible, but the head stamps I remember using within the last few years were as far back as 12 and they all shot within 1.5moa but generally were at 1moa with the Mk22.
 
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