See, innovation!
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hahaha....might want to take a minute to look up the word pedantic! LOL
Can yall take it elsewhere so those of us following this thread for relevant info can leave notifications on? Please and thank you!
Well I will have to continue to disagree.
Not much to see here is new. Evidently the Olympic shooting world is OK with electronic triggers again, and there’s plenty of free pistols to be found with electronic triggers. Considering the first one was in 1982 it’s tough for me to accept adapting 40 year old tech to a bolt action repeater all that innovative.
The built in safety features aren’t even all that new, nor connectivity etc.
Morini CM 84E
Electronic mechanism gives minimum lock-time from trigger release to fire. Ball bearing trigger unit provides friction-free action. Accidental discharge due to the light trigger is guarded by a light beam sensor spanning the trigger guard. A photocell on the trigger ensures against accidental...
www.morini.ch I used to know a guy who owned one.
Plus side was the rifle was scary accurate, I think Remington was actually making quality rifles still and they pulled out all the stops to make the Etronx shooters. Having zero lock time probably helped. It was also pretty slick not needing to have the bolt movement cock a striker, so the bolt could be run with almost no effort at all.
Downside was everything you mentioned. A concept ahead of its time just like the Voere. If there was a commercially available primer that was electronically sensitive and not crazy $$$ along with today’s battery technology the Etronx could be pretty cool.
Oh yeah, sorry about that, Jeff.
Hey Jeff, you still up? OK, def. not gonna post anything off-topic here from now on. Night-night, buddy!
Everyone is comparing the MDT electronic trigger to the Remington Etronx system, but I really don't think that is what MDT is going for here. I don't think they're looking to change our primers at all, it's just an electronic system of dropping the sear and normal ignition of rounds as we are always used to. Unless I am really just missing something.
No that’s a good summary. So it’s just a Remington 700 footprint version of a Hammerli 152/162 free pistol or more recent Morini free pistol solenoid trigger.
Everyone thinks it’s a gun industry first but it’s not by a long long time.
Everyone thinks it’s a gun industry first but it’s not by a long long time.
Agree to disagree on the definitions of invention and innovation? Weird flex, but ok.Well I will have to continue to disagree.
Not much to see here is new. Evidently the Olympic shooting world is OK with electronic triggers again, and there’s plenty of free pistols to be found with electronic triggers. Considering the first one was in 1982 it’s tough for me to accept adapting 40 year old tech to a bolt action repeater all that innovative.
The built in safety features aren’t even all that new, nor connectivity etc.
Morini CM 84E
Electronic mechanism gives minimum lock-time from trigger release to fire. Ball bearing trigger unit provides friction-free action. Accidental discharge due to the light trigger is guarded by a light beam sensor spanning the trigger guard. A photocell on the trigger ensures against accidental...
Who said that they think it's a gun industry first? You made that up.
Well I will have to continue to disagree.
Not much to see here is new. Evidently the Olympic shooting world is OK with electronic triggers again, and there’s plenty of free pistols to be found with electronic triggers. Considering the first one was in 1982 it’s tough for me to accept adapting 40 year old tech to a bolt action repeater all that innovative.
The built in safety features aren’t even all that new, nor connectivity etc.
Morini CM 84E
Electronic mechanism gives minimum lock-time from trigger release to fire. Ball bearing trigger unit provides friction-free action. Accidental discharge due to the light trigger is guarded by a light beam sensor spanning the trigger guard. A photocell on the trigger ensures against accidental...
LOL. So you're disagreeing with the literal definition of "innovation"???
Pick up a dictionary. You can't just make up your own meanings for words. Well, you can.....but you're wrong.
It's like saying 2+2=orange.
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What exactly is innovative about it?
1.) Electronic solenoid triggering? Been done before.
2.) Has an app to measure stuff? The Morini free pistol already does that too.
3.) Applied to a bolt action rifle? Also been done before.
4.) Utilizes programming to achieve safety? Again the Morini does that too.
I hope the MDT product is a good one, and performs as advertised. I would look at at as a refinement of existing technology if it does. All the other electronic triggers have and continue to suffer with reliability issues. Maybe MDT will actually innovate and make one that is resistant to oil/water/debris contamination equaling a conventional trigger.
1.) Electronic solenoid triggering? Been done before.
2.) Has an app to measure stuff? The Morini free pistol already does that too.
3.) Applied to a bolt action rifle? Also been done before.
4.) Utilizes programming to achieve safety? Again the Morini does that too.
I hope the MDT product is a good one, and performs as advertised. I would look at at as a refinement of existing technology if it does. All the other electronic triggers have and continue to suffer with reliability issues. Maybe MDT will actually innovate and make one that is resistant to oil/water/debris contamination equaling a conventional trigger.
@mynamejeff
Jeff, Jeff, JEEEEFFFFFFFFF!!!
Better get in here, people are talking about stuff other than the stuff you want to talk about.
Jeff, Jeff, JEEEEFFFFFFFFF!!!
Better get in here, people are talking about stuff other than the stuff you want to talk about.
added another to the wish list . would be innovative to just pop-out the electronic primer from your fired case, and use again on the next reload.
.
Why is making it into an M700 trigger innovative? Is the M700 trigger so vastly complex and special that it merits recognition on its own? I don’t think so. It’s an electronic solenoid that releases/actuates a sear after command from a micro switch, hooray it’s a concept that has been implemented since 1982 by Hammerli in the word of individually operated firearms. Morini has been doing that and Bluetooth app stuff already so a shooter can analyze their training, and it has built in safety features programmed in.
The MDT is a step down from the Voere and Remington EtronX as far as innovation. Those were seriously ahead of their time. Hell the Remington could even be readily adapted back to conventional fire control just like this MDT except Remington did it in a their M700 over 20 years ago.
For $499.99 we can now take a proven concept from the bullseye pistol community and slap it on an M700 action/footprint and gain very small incremental trigger improvements to help eke out a 1% advantage if you’re at the bleeding edge of top level competition shooting and can utilize that 1% score improvement.
I fully expect this trigger will be very beneficial to highly skilled shooters in the Palma, benchrest, and F-Class community where the separation between podium finishes and also rans are very very tight on scores and “X”s.
For the rest of us the value will be much more limited. That money being better spent on ammo, reloading components, and training.
See the definition of innovation, and let me know if you still have questions.
OK, let’s break this down.
1.) New methods? Nope solenoid activated sear surface commanded by a micro switch, already been done. Can be interfaced with a software application, already been done.
2.) Advanced? Nope, similar technology to pre existing products that do the same thing on other firearms.
3.) Original? Again nope, Hammerli did this in 1982. It’s a solenoid activated sear engagement surface, not the next coming of Christ.
It’s repackaging stuff that’s already been done. The only thing “innovative” here is the marketing of existing technology that is at its core 40 years old at a minimum to a customer base that has limited knowledge of or exposure to the technology. Which in itself isn’t particularly innovative from a marketing standpoint either.
I’m not saying it sucks, or it won’t work. I would caution that a quick search of forums dedicated to shooting disciplines that use electronic triggers shows a lot of them have problems with long term reliability.
As an example here is a near 20 year old thread on another forum where guys are debating the merits of electronic triggers in a whole host of competition rifles, and pistols. Evidently there are several companies that have been offering electronic triggers now for quite some time.
At various points in time back to at least the 1980's electronic triggers could or can be had on Feinwerkbau, Walther, and Anschutz match rifles. Morini and Hammerli free pistols too. Probably others that I haven't even heard of.
There's nothing really new here, just new to non Olympic discipline shooters.
Mechanical vs. Electronic Trigger Generalities - TargetTalk
www.targettalk.org
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If you guys wanna have a pissing match over Merriam's Webster, take it to the pit, or I'm going to start issuing vacation time so you can reflect on the definition of "knock this shit off" in your new found spare time.
Roger that.
I'm not sure we're comparing them to each other. It's apples versus raisins in this case. Remington built a vastly superior electronic trigger in that lock time was near zero. MDT is just releasing the firing pin with a solenoid. Lock time remains the same, now you just have to press the trigger, not break the sear. So basically anyone that loves a a two stage trigger will definitely not get it with this. The comparable part is when the power source dies in the middle of your PRS match or when you're getting ready to drop the hammer of a fine animal. It had better be readily chargeable and use a type c fast charger.
The batteries at shot show lasted all day with everyone in the building stopping by to pull the trigger a few times. The were getting low on charge at the end of the day.
If the same battery is on the final version, it’ll be completely user error in not charging the trigger for quite a while.
If the same battery is on the final version, it’ll be completely user error in not charging the trigger for quite a while.
Damn I forgot that shit existed.
Then why were people even bringing up Etronx in the first place if they weren't being compared?
If you're worried about batteries dying in a match, then just put in brand new ones at the start of the match and use them up in training. It's a simple solution for a simple problem.
I'd settle for some RL26, LRPs, and some fresh brass...
I'd actually prefer if it was a magnetically attached cable with a standard USB plug on the other end. That way it could be charged from a portable USB battery or a wall power adapter. And a magnetic attachment would have a more forgiving physical shape/size than type C plug, as well as assure the correct orientation of the plug. My bone conduction earphones use a similar interface, and it's actually very slick from a low physical form factor perspective.
ETA: Here's an example of the cable for the earphones that I was describing...
It would seem to me, this would be a more easily used cable, that could clip magnetically to the bottom of the trigger housing that is exposed through the trigger slot of the chassis/stock. Since each post is an opposingly charged magnet, it's impossible to connect it incorrectly, and allows the trigger housing to remain waterproof/sealed.
@MDT_Josh
I don’t know if the battery in this MDT unit is replaceable by the end user?
Some research on other forums dedicated to the Olympic disciplines has revealed that the E triggers have generally acceptable reliability under clean indoor range conditions. Maybe even slightly higher system reliability than mechanical triggers.
The downside is that they’re not forgiving of moisture, oil contamination, or gunk buildup. At least existing designs have these issues.
It was also noted that where a mechanical match trigger can have issues over time they almost never get to the point that the gun no longer goes bang. The electronic triggers have been observed to fail and just brick out suddenly with nothing to be done about it.
Some research on other forums dedicated to the Olympic disciplines has revealed that the E triggers have generally acceptable reliability under clean indoor range conditions. Maybe even slightly higher system reliability than mechanical triggers.
The downside is that they’re not forgiving of moisture, oil contamination, or gunk buildup. At least existing designs have these issues.
It was also noted that where a mechanical match trigger can have issues over time they almost never get to the point that the gun no longer goes bang. The electronic triggers have been observed to fail and just brick out suddenly with nothing to be done about it.
I think we can establish that electronics have gotten better over the last 30 years, yes? I mean, I can buy a pair of earphones that are IP67 compliant for $130. So yeah, electronics have gotten cheaper and more dependable over the years...
And since you have stated you don't know details about the MDT trigger, perhaps your critiques would be better kept to yourself, until you do.
Apparently, the trigger does use a USB-C fast charger...
mdttac.com
Inside MDT - Shot Show 2023 - MDT Zero Stage Electronic Trigger
Continuing with our annual SHOT SHOW Tradition of innovation, today we highlight the new MDT Zero Stage Electronic Trigger.The MDT Zero Stage Electronic Trigger will be available for the Remington 700 and clones and is adjustable from 4-64 ounces. Because the trigger is electronic, there is no...
mdttac.com I don’t have any specific criticism of the MDT product, and didn’t before.
I have stated several times I expect it will probably be good.
Hopefully they’re able to rectify some of the shortcomings of other electronic triggers, but it must be observed that companies who’ve been in the game for decades haven’t solved all of them yet either.
I have stated several times I expect it will probably be good.
Hopefully they’re able to rectify some of the shortcomings of other electronic triggers, but it must be observed that companies who’ve been in the game for decades haven’t solved all of them yet either.
I don't think that's how most took your comments. Perhaps you should rethink how you phrase your comments in the future.
As for the other companies; I've seen a lot of companies that have been around for decades not able to overcome technical challenges. Age of a company has little to do with innovation; culture does. And most older companies have a culture that has grown stale, or limits their growth as they grow in size and scale. Nothing new, as it happens to most companies as they grow in size. There's a reason, on average, the age of a company these days is 28 years. Versus 68 years back in the 1920's. We have become a specialized society. And as Heinlein said..."Specialization is for insects" (who are much more likely to go extinct). Businesses today act a lot like insects....
I brought up the EtronX because somebody had posted about Hammerli having done an electronic trigger much earlier and someone else asking why they hadn't put that in a 700 (yet). I said that they kinda did do that already with an electronically-triggered/electrically-fired 700 called the EtronX.
Others posted about their previous ownership of said 700 variant but no-one made any comparisons between that product and what MDT is doing.
You good or do you need more talkin' to?
That’s the truth. I work for one.
I came off in a way that seemed critical because I don’t personally view the MDT product as being particularly innovative. That is because I am aware of a bunch of electronic triggers from other shooting disciplines. They’re very niche but I made an incorrect assumption that more people in the firearms realm would know about them.
I should have prefaced my comments by stating that a product doesn’t need to innovate to be really really good. As a consumer and end user I’ll opt for refined and high quality over bleeding edge tech almost every time. I don’t want to be a beta tester in other words. So if MDT has been able to take the innovation of others and refine it into something that actually works for the end user without constant fiddling around that’s awesome.
I came off in a way that seemed critical because I don’t personally view the MDT product as being particularly innovative. That is because I am aware of a bunch of electronic triggers from other shooting disciplines. They’re very niche but I made an incorrect assumption that more people in the firearms realm would know about them.
I should have prefaced my comments by stating that a product doesn’t need to innovate to be really really good. As a consumer and end user I’ll opt for refined and high quality over bleeding edge tech almost every time. I don’t want to be a beta tester in other words. So if MDT has been able to take the innovation of others and refine it into something that actually works for the end user without constant fiddling around that’s awesome.
Will go the way of electric primers... Yes I still a box of 1000 EtronX primers.
Those are worth a small fortune now.
It’s too bad the EtronX primers were so stupid expensive, the concept is pretty cool. Imagine that rifle today with more modern battery tech.
It’s too bad the EtronX primers were so stupid expensive, the concept is pretty cool. Imagine that rifle today with more modern battery tech.
I want to know how good a shooter must be before they buy this trigger, for the trigger alone to improve their performance.
-Stan
-Stan
That one is going to be tough to predict, and will be interesting to see some testing on.
The only community that uses a lot of electronic triggers are guys and gals shooting precision small bore rifle and free pistol, and air rifle and air pistol. I’d venture a guess that all of them are already well into the top 1%-5% of shooting ability worldwide if they’re competitive in those disciplines compared to the average casual shooter.
Perusing some forums it seems like those folks are kind of split on whether an electronic trigger improves their scores or not. Then again their whole game is perfecting fundamentals, so they have position shooting dialed in, they all understand natural point of aim and know how to consistently apply a shot process every time. Lastly they all have a very thorough understanding of trigger press, follow through and all the other things. They’re probably going to shoot anything pretty well so they might be more ambivalent about a good mechanical trigger vs a good electronic trigger.
The only community that uses a lot of electronic triggers are guys and gals shooting precision small bore rifle and free pistol, and air rifle and air pistol. I’d venture a guess that all of them are already well into the top 1%-5% of shooting ability worldwide if they’re competitive in those disciplines compared to the average casual shooter.
Perusing some forums it seems like those folks are kind of split on whether an electronic trigger improves their scores or not. Then again their whole game is perfecting fundamentals, so they have position shooting dialed in, they all understand natural point of aim and know how to consistently apply a shot process every time. Lastly they all have a very thorough understanding of trigger press, follow through and all the other things. They’re probably going to shoot anything pretty well so they might be more ambivalent about a good mechanical trigger vs a good electronic trigger.
With the right innovation, they will.
I've got some experience with E triggers on higher quality air pistols and air rifles. The best of these by far was on a Morini 162E Olympic match pistol. Not only did it have a more distinct feel than other E triggers I've tried, some what like the equivalent mechanical triggers, but it adjusted to less than an ounce which I felt helped consistency for target work using a pistol. In my pistol it was a benefit compared to my other Olympic pistol which is a Steyr LP50 set at 6 ounces as far as relaxing my hand and concentrating on form.
The rifles which were Daystate E triggers are nothing great and not in the same league as the Morini. They can be adjusted down to 5 ounces or so but they lack the "glass rod" break of a good mechanical and feel more like the click of a mouse for a computer instead. It takes some getting used to and don't get me wrong they are certainly better than many stock triggers in a ton of guns these days but I'll take a Trigger Tech single stage set a few ounces heavier any day vs those Daystate E triggers.
The problem I see with a E trigger in a tactical rifle is safely handing super light E triggers. When I first started in Tactical matches I had a Jewel BR trigger set to 3 ounce or so and try as I may it'd go off once in a while before I was fully ready so I went to 14 ounces or so which mostly eliminated that problem. Though 14oz still feels heavy to me in a match rifle after using the Olympic match triggers.
The rifles which were Daystate E triggers are nothing great and not in the same league as the Morini. They can be adjusted down to 5 ounces or so but they lack the "glass rod" break of a good mechanical and feel more like the click of a mouse for a computer instead. It takes some getting used to and don't get me wrong they are certainly better than many stock triggers in a ton of guns these days but I'll take a Trigger Tech single stage set a few ounces heavier any day vs those Daystate E triggers.
The problem I see with a E trigger in a tactical rifle is safely handing super light E triggers. When I first started in Tactical matches I had a Jewel BR trigger set to 3 ounce or so and try as I may it'd go off once in a while before I was fully ready so I went to 14 ounces or so which mostly eliminated that problem. Though 14oz still feels heavy to me in a match rifle after using the Olympic match triggers.
Back in the 90s i played with a Walther Running Boar 22 Rimfire at a metallic Silhouette match, it was pretty nice, compared nicely to the Anschutz trigger in my 54:18. I was worried about the trigger going dead in the middle of a match but the owner said he just replaced it every 6 months and had never had an issue. The newest Walther Olympic rifles can all be had with your choice of mechanical or electric triggers.
The point being that these new triggers are innovative, not revolutionary. That is not a bad thing, expanding the range of application for a technology is every bit as important.
The point being that these new triggers are innovative, not revolutionary. That is not a bad thing, expanding the range of application for a technology is every bit as important.
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