No need to make a throw lever for the ZP5s, they have one built into the mag ring.
Rifle Scopes Minox Zp5 5-25x56
- Thread starter mrobles3808
- Start date
No need to make a throw lever for the ZP5s, they have one built into the mag ring.
Awesome. ^
That's some nice hardware.
I have 2 ZP5s and neither has the throw lever built into the mag ring that you wrote about. Please elaborate...
Not exactly the same as a throw lever. I haven't bought a throw lever for either ZP5 because the clocking is wrong on the ones I've seen for sale. I want the groove for the fin offset from the handle at least 45 degrees so most of the throw is to the left of the action, otherwise the bolt handle in my TL2 can hit the throw lever. I'm running a "universal coaster" throw lever in the meantime, which can be clocked any way the shooter wants it.
You're correct, not the same and not adjustable to position but I believe that is what he was referring too
Got my minox today! (thanks cstactical) mounted it up this evening in a set of ARC rings that were in the box with it. Initial impression is great. First thing I noticed, it's light as a feather compared to a gen 2 razor. Reticle is awesome. Much better than the EBR-1c of the razor. For my shooting, I need something between the half MIL hash and the AMG as well as this MR4 are a god send. The clicks are not bad but I would say that both vortex scopes, the AMG and the gen 2 razor, have better clicks. I was real hoping that the minox would have clicks like the premiers did. The AMG is just about the same as they were. All in all, so far so good. The razor served me well for a few years but I'm at the point where the weight, reticle and stiff mag ring made me part ways. If they ever come out with the gen 2 razor with the EBR7 reticle of the AMG in it, I'd think about coming back. That may be worth the weight of that beast again to me at least. This minox is pretty F'ing sweet. Hope to get out tomorrow and do some load development with it.
Looking forward to your report... What do the clicks compare too? And how does it feel going from rev1 to rev2? Is the glass that much better than the AMG? Thanks
I'm wondering the same thing, the Minox with mr4 reticle and the AMG are what I'm looking at for my next rifle. Turret feel and low light performance are the main things I'd like to know about between the two. I've had many of Vortex optics and stil have some. For the most part they are great, I've never tried anything but Leupold and Vortex. I do have a Steiner p4xi but I know that one isn't made in Germany.
If you are looking for a throw lever for the Minox, the MK Machining throw lever for the Kahles k624i will work on it.
Haven't had the glass outside yet, or even set the diopter so hopefully we will see today. The clicks are similar to how I remember my gen 1 razor being. I haven't had any other scopes worth mentioning than the gen 1, gen 2, AMG and premier. That premier really ruined me on turret feel. Again, the minox isn't bad but you do realize how nice the gen 2 is once you spin these. It's really my only place for improvement in the minox that I can see so far. The first to second turn on mine is hard. Like hard enough that had I not already been aware of it being an issue I would have thought it was a single turn turret. Most people would probably think they were breaking the scope by the force it took. I've read that they eliminated that from US scopes. My box didn't have plastic around it and wasn't taped shut, so maybe it was a return to cstactical or something and an earlier model. Maybe it will loosen up with use, I don't get into the second rev much if at all anyway.
Thanks for the first hand input.. I'm not so sure I like the stiffness between revs, even though I probably wouldn't use the second one.. Also disappointing to hear the turrets aren't more crisp, I just keep getting hung up on these thinking I wanna try these one day..
No scope is perfect in every regard. On the Minox the clicks are "only great" not absolutely outstanding like the rest of the scope. I still would not swap this for pretty much anything and I have owned pretty much all there is before Minox.
I didn't make it out to shoot at all today, not that it would have meant I'd be going into the second rev, but I did screw around with it some and go back and fourth between the two. It has definitely gotten a little easier now. It's not near as hard as it was the first few times. To me it's absolutely not a deal breaker. This scope has too much good going for it to let that stand in the way of trying one out. The clicks are not bad by any means and I'm probably doing it a disservice by having mentioned it in the first place. It has more adjustment in one rotation than the gen 2, the AMG and the premier did so by default it's going to be a finer click rather than the authoritative thud the premier had. Thinking about it now, the second rev is similar in feel to the MTC of the premier. I guess that means you either hate it or love it like so many did with those scopes. To me, I liked it. As I said earlier, don't let these two things keep you from trying out one. None of them are going to be the greatest at everything for everyone. A TT may be all that and a bat of chips and be all the minox is plus the clicks of the premier but for the price tag...? Is it worth it in the end? To some maybe, to me, I doubt it. I'm definitely not going into TT territory unless I get hands on with one and even then, vortex and minox still very capably fill my needs with these two scopes. I will stand behind my opinion that a EBR7 reticle in a gen 2 razor might just be worth the weight to me to switch back. The FOV and eye box of the gen 2 was awesome and very spoiling.
So the reports of Minox lessening the second turn resistance are incorrect and US bound scopes are still very stiff going in to the second turn?
Yeah, I remember seeing that. But the poster above indicates it was so stiff he would have thought it a one turn turret if he didn't know to keep turning. Was it truly even stiffer than that previously, or have they reverted? Unless I'm getting my posters and quotes confused it sounds like he just got one of the new ones. I'm certainly not trying to dump on them -- I recently ordered and paid in full for two -- but am curious what to expect and what Minox is currently doing.
I have one and it was pretty stiff initially. If I hadn't already known that it was supposed to be that stiff, I probably wouldn't have thought to keep turning it due to worrying about breaking something. It loosened up considerably after just a few turns and really isn't an issue with me at all now that I know what to expect. It's a mild head scratcher at first, but I quickly forgot about it.
I apologize if it came across as me questioning what was shipped to me, I never doubted it was new, just thought it possible it could have been opened for viewing or something. I'm certainly not trying to bring your honestly or anything into question. Hopefully it didn't come across that way. This is my first German made optic much less new one, so I'm ignorant as to how they package. Although, you would think from my Hk addiction I would have recognized the familiar smell of kraut air coming from the box when I opened it! Thanks for the great service and for getting back to me about the ARC rings the way you did. Was my first purchase through you but I'm sure it's not going to be my last. I may end up selling my AMG and grabbing another Minox after I spend some time with them both!
Please feel free to PM me your number or call 916.670.1103 as I do not see your order for two Minox Scopes if they are MR4's and we're the only dealer in the U.S. to have them at this time. I'd be happy to clarify any confusion.
And since this is relevant, this is what showed up today
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I didn't order from you.
Is this confusion you're not allowed to clarify publicly for some reason?
Are you saying the second turn was only lightened on scopes with the MR4 reticle and not the others?
Then given the report above -- which suggests the turn is still extremely stiff -- must have really been something else before the revision. I'm surprised the revised turrets are still so stiff that the guy above thought someone uninformed about it would have thought they weren't made to turn any more. I'll be interested to see what I get. And to make sure I'm reading your post clearly -- all new MR2s, 4s, and 5s, that come in from Germany recently and in the future will all have the revised turrets with the lightened second turn?
And thanks for the information. Reading the report above I was wondering if Minox had decided to go back to the stiff second turn indicator. Well, it seems they never gave up on the stiff second turn -- just less stiff than previously; which I assume was quite stiff indeed. It's a great boon to the forum that vendors like CSTacitcal take the time to give actual reports and advice about gear to the members here. Though I didn't buy these scopes from you guys, I did buy a pricey rifle from you last year.
I'm curious what they did different with the 15X ZP5's. Those don't have a stiff second turn, its hardly noticeable while the 25X is.
Welp... just took the plunge... placed an order for a ZP5 5-25/MR4 with Richard @ CS Tactical. I'm really looking forward to checking it out!
I'll have an opportunity to compare it to a TT 5-25, Gen II Razor 4.5-27, and a (1st gen) Athlon Cronus 4.5-29. Obviously, the Cronus is in a different class (as it should be, given its price compared to the others), but it'll be interesting to see how they all compare to one another.
Last time I did a back-to-back comparison of the TT and the Gen II, I was able to tell a difference between them (in favor of the TT), but it took a fair amount of looking to find it (mostly in the shadows).
I'll have an opportunity to compare it to a TT 5-25, Gen II Razor 4.5-27, and a (1st gen) Athlon Cronus 4.5-29. Obviously, the Cronus is in a different class (as it should be, given its price compared to the others), but it'll be interesting to see how they all compare to one another.
Last time I did a back-to-back comparison of the TT and the Gen II, I was able to tell a difference between them (in favor of the TT), but it took a fair amount of looking to find it (mostly in the shadows).
I'm very interested in a comparison between the Tangent Theta and the ZP5. The TT is the only top level scope I have yet to see in person, and given its price, I'm not surprised. Others who have compared the two have said the TT is an excellent scope, rich in features and glass, but the price difference between it and the Minox was greater than any difference in performance. I believe the words used were "Save your money. Buy the Minox" or something to that effect.
I was in the same boat about 3 months ago. (mostly because of the sticker price) I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on the TT. From what I understand, they are wonderful. 3) ZP5/MR4's later, I couldn't be happier.
I saw the "Save your money, Buy the Minox" quote a couple of months ago. The comment came from a TT owner and was addressed to someone that was considering both the TT and the ZP5. That held a lot of sway with me, so I ended up w/ZP5's.
I'm interested in the comparison as well. I have a TT. And I'm in the market for a second scope soon. Was thinking about the Minox, but the thing with the turrets kinda concerns me. The reticle looks great though.
Watch the video that was posted about the turrets. From the vid, they look great. I seen reviews on the Steiner military turrents being an issue as well and my experience has been quite the opposite, same with the glass. I'd take a few posts in here with a grain of salt.
If it were me, which it was recently, I'd go with the Minox and not worry about the turret shit. Granted I don't expect to drop the cash for a TT any time soon and I have not handled one as of yet but I'm not left wanting anything more than what this scope gives me. The clicks are nice, the reticle nice, the weight nice and the turret profile is nice. It's a great scope, I may move my AMG and grab a second. The hard spot is a non issue for me and it seems to be getting less as its moved through the second rev a few times. This crap is so subjective to individual preference that the only sure way to know is to try it yourself. You may find you prefer the TT. You may find you part with the TT and grab another minox. It's really personal preference at this level of the market, none of them are going to be perfect for everyone.
I have two MR4's left from that batch that came in yesterday, you can find out about the turrets for yourself
That's moving pretty quick for a scope in this price range isn't it?
The Minox seems to be the current "it girl" everyone wants to take to the dance.
After mine get in and if they're all that I bet I get more. I went with MR5, but the MR4 looks like a must-have as well.
I have one with the MR4 and really like it. I'm not enamored with it or anything, but I'm very satisfied so far. I can't stress enough how little of an issue the second rev on the turret is. Not only do I not use it, but it isn't even that stiff. If you like the other features of the scope, you'd be doing yourself a disservice by shying away due to the second rev stiffness.
Great to hear. Sounds like it could be a question of individual perception, expectations, manufacturing variance, and just working it a little. Can't wait until mine get here.
Working it definitely helped, much like many zoom mechanisms loosen up after a few uses. The head scratcher for me, specifically as to why it seems to be an issue for some, is that it is stiff by design. If it weren't designed to be that way, it would be a concern. It simply isn't anything that negatively affects the usability of the system.
To be fair about the video above it goes through like the first 4 mils then jumps straight to 14, the tough spot seems to occur at the 13 mil mark and go to the 14 mil mark... I'm not saying the clicks didn't sound fantastic in the vid, cause they did, but I'm sure that the tough spot is still there, it's just gonna be something you'll have to get used to... Some say the glass is phenomenal and I'm sure it is, but that turret thing is all that's kept me from buying one.. I'm not saying I still won't buy one just to see what all the hype is about...
Mine came in this afternoon, and I got to play with it a fair amount and compare to my other scopes. I am able to look at things from 50 yards to about 1200 yards at my house, ranging from rocks, cedars, oaks, houses, and metal buildings.
First off, the second rev stiffness is a nonissue. I'd say that has been fixed if it was an issue. It's a nice tactile feature, and very easy to turn through on my scope. The MR4 reticle is very nice, very clean, and usable. The locking diopter works very well, and I can't stress enough to take the time to focus the reticle. I found that putting the reticle on a dark green background like cedars is a great place to focus it because this is going to be a tougher background to see the reticle. If it comes into focus on a tough background then it will be bold anywhere.
The knurling on the knobs feels very good. The illumination is optimized for night/lowlight/NV. Parallax knob has a nice tension. Zoom is smooth, fin on zoom ring is fine, not as high speed as a dedicated throw lever though. Clicks have a nice spacing and clunk more than click which I prefer. I don't like turrets that are too tight and clicky and over-run. I want to hit the trough of the adjustment easily. My windage turret actually has a bit more tension and if the elevation turret had this same feel, I think everyone would be in love with the turrets. My elevation turret is good and similar to my AMG.
Okay, glass. I can't say I'm an expert on glass, but I like looking through top tier glass and I've come to expect it and basically won't settle now. The Minox glass is very good from initial views today, and I'll need to get it out on some targets to further evaluate. It is not as good at dusk as my Premier. It darkens a bit from 20-25x, but that is physics, simply put.
The one thing I'm going to nitpick and I'm hesitant to because I don't want to turn people off the new hotness, and have a bunch of blue-balled optic freaks out there. For whatever reason, on my scope, I find the clarity/resolution/crispness at the very top edge of the scope to be off. It does not interfere with the great image throughout the rest of the scope, but it's there. I have good edge to edge clarity side to side and at the bottom, but a bit of fuzziness at the top edge. My Premier 5-25 and NF ATACR 4-16 F1 have fantastic edge to edge clarity with a very defined edge all the way around. The AMG is right there but maybe not perfect, but at least uniform. This kind of confirms that my Premier is still my go to Benchmark, the NF 4-16 is a beast killer and I just think it's a great scope for what it is, and the AMG is the do all things very well, but maybe slightly tight eyebox, but really not bad and I'm getting comfortable with it.
I was critical of my AMG when I first got it, but it has grown on me. I'm not going to sell the ZP5 short yet, everything about it is spot on but the top edge clarity/resolution bugs me. Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight or greater explanation on edge to edge clarity. Are they trying to push the FOV too far and lose resolution at the (or an) edge? Let me know what you think/find, etc. Could just be my scope, and by no means would I consider it a deterrent in purchasing. Just an observation.
First off, the second rev stiffness is a nonissue. I'd say that has been fixed if it was an issue. It's a nice tactile feature, and very easy to turn through on my scope. The MR4 reticle is very nice, very clean, and usable. The locking diopter works very well, and I can't stress enough to take the time to focus the reticle. I found that putting the reticle on a dark green background like cedars is a great place to focus it because this is going to be a tougher background to see the reticle. If it comes into focus on a tough background then it will be bold anywhere.
The knurling on the knobs feels very good. The illumination is optimized for night/lowlight/NV. Parallax knob has a nice tension. Zoom is smooth, fin on zoom ring is fine, not as high speed as a dedicated throw lever though. Clicks have a nice spacing and clunk more than click which I prefer. I don't like turrets that are too tight and clicky and over-run. I want to hit the trough of the adjustment easily. My windage turret actually has a bit more tension and if the elevation turret had this same feel, I think everyone would be in love with the turrets. My elevation turret is good and similar to my AMG.
Okay, glass. I can't say I'm an expert on glass, but I like looking through top tier glass and I've come to expect it and basically won't settle now. The Minox glass is very good from initial views today, and I'll need to get it out on some targets to further evaluate. It is not as good at dusk as my Premier. It darkens a bit from 20-25x, but that is physics, simply put.
The one thing I'm going to nitpick and I'm hesitant to because I don't want to turn people off the new hotness, and have a bunch of blue-balled optic freaks out there. For whatever reason, on my scope, I find the clarity/resolution/crispness at the very top edge of the scope to be off. It does not interfere with the great image throughout the rest of the scope, but it's there. I have good edge to edge clarity side to side and at the bottom, but a bit of fuzziness at the top edge. My Premier 5-25 and NF ATACR 4-16 F1 have fantastic edge to edge clarity with a very defined edge all the way around. The AMG is right there but maybe not perfect, but at least uniform. This kind of confirms that my Premier is still my go to Benchmark, the NF 4-16 is a beast killer and I just think it's a great scope for what it is, and the AMG is the do all things very well, but maybe slightly tight eyebox, but really not bad and I'm getting comfortable with it.
I was critical of my AMG when I first got it, but it has grown on me. I'm not going to sell the ZP5 short yet, everything about it is spot on but the top edge clarity/resolution bugs me. Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight or greater explanation on edge to edge clarity. Are they trying to push the FOV too far and lose resolution at the (or an) edge? Let me know what you think/find, etc. Could just be my scope, and by no means would I consider it a deterrent in purchasing. Just an observation.
I think you are totally spot on with your assessment and I have to agree with everything you have stated (positive and negative). I thought the image was beautiful up to 18x and then after that I lost what I'd consider a considerable amount of resolution, not to mention I didn't feel edge to edge clarity to be on par with my expectations. By all means I thought the scope was great and I'm glad I had the opportunity to own one to see what the jazz was about, it just didn't tickle me as much as some of the other top tiers have. I opted for an old trusty schmidt PM2 5-25 and to my eye this is as good as it gets with the NF ATACR's riding closely.
I was just going to ask how the Schmidt PM II 5-25 compares to this optic, cause I just ordered one instead of the Minox..
Out of curiosity, how are you interfacing with the scope? That is to say, is it mounted to something, or are you freehanding it, or...? I ask because I have found that it's difficult to get a consistent relationship between my eye and an optic until the optic is on a rifle. I have found that hand/head movement using any other method influences my ability to really evaluate the image that I'm getting though the scope.
It sounds like you have plenty of experience along with plenty of other high end scopes, so I'm sure that what you're seeing is actually there... I was just wondering how you were going about it.
Just to briefly answer your question the scope was mounted to the rifle and cheek piece run up and down. Scope was also bagged next to other scopes for quick comparison.
Now that was last night and Mike has reached out to me today with some good ideas as to why I may be seeing what I am. Very helpful guy so props to CS Tactical. Very good chance my reticle is bottomed out because I turned it down to the zero stop when I was messing with turrets out of the box and scope was already in 2nd rev when I received it now that I think about it. This would put reticle at top of scope. Overlooked this fact as I was testing other features and then obviously got distracted with issue. Going to center it up and/or boresight and re evaluate hopefully later today.
Now that was last night and Mike has reached out to me today with some good ideas as to why I may be seeing what I am. Very helpful guy so props to CS Tactical. Very good chance my reticle is bottomed out because I turned it down to the zero stop when I was messing with turrets out of the box and scope was already in 2nd rev when I received it now that I think about it. This would put reticle at top of scope. Overlooked this fact as I was testing other features and then obviously got distracted with issue. Going to center it up and/or boresight and re evaluate hopefully later today.
I had the same freakout moment when I got mine. Once you zero and get the erector away from the end of its travel, it'll be beautiful.
To be honest, consistently the only people that have a problem with the 2nd Rev indicator feature are people that have never actually held the scope. It's really a non-issue. Even then, at a normal DA for where I'm at in north Texas, 14 mils gets me to 1500 with my 6.5. How often do y'all really dial more than 14mils...?
To be honest, consistently the only people that have a problem with the 2nd Rev indicator feature are people that have never actually held the scope. It's really a non-issue. Even then, at a normal DA for where I'm at in north Texas, 14 mils gets me to 1500 with my 6.5. How often do y'all really dial more than 14mils...?
In the 2 minutes I had between dinner I cranked erector back to middle of travel and all is good now! I haven't evaluated it extensively but just doing that made a night and day difference!
Mike was on the ball today and I appreciate his assistance! I can say all is good and proceed with confidence with this optic. I'll get it mounted up again and give any other feed back that I can.
Mike was on the ball today and I appreciate his assistance! I can say all is good and proceed with confidence with this optic. I'll get it mounted up again and give any other feed back that I can.
I can answer this question I just sold a PMII and I got a kahles brand new I'm selling and I got a vortex gen 2 and sold a razor AMG recently. Overall minox wins... I still think the vortex gen 2 has the better turrets though. More Bc of the spacing between hash marks, if u shoot PRS competitions I want to be able to see quickly the exact elevation I dial within a second, with the PM2 and kahles and the minox the spacing is super close together. I also think vortex has the zero system down better than other companies period!
I feel the minox has the edge on clarity and brightness in all lighting conditions. I would agree there is some slight slight slight edge distortion on the minox above 18x like others have mentioned. But the PMII was every so slightly more blurry and not as bright at higher mag compared to the minox. It's not obvious it's very slight and probably more subjective. I personally like the minox turrets better than the PM2 or kahles. It feels more like a high end watch bezel like a wind up Rolex that sort of crispness. I do admit there is ever so slight mush. I mean very very slight. Slight compared to the other euro scopes mentioned.
When all is said and done minox has glass on par or better than other European high end glass with vortex's warranty.... can't beat that.
just my opinion... see my prior and current sale ads for legitimate claim that I indeed owned all scopes mentioned above.
for what it's worth my bud D Bertochinni is shooting quite well in the NRL and the local norcal matches and all with his 3 minox scopes.
The Minox came into its own once I got it lined out. Another thing that improved after centering up the erector was overall brightness from 20-25x at dusk. That is encouraging although I would still turn magnification down during fading light. I would not say the turrets are as finely spaced as Schmidt's. I played with 2 ultra shorts last weekend and those things were very fine. Didn't care for it that much. I'd say the Minox is medium spaced with the Razor2 being the most widely spaced. The Minox is simple enough to hit the mark and I can't foresee losing any perceptible time when spinning them especially with some practice. I also like its large clearly marked numbers on the turrets.
Right on... I'm glad that it was something so easy to correct! Now I'm really chomping at the bit for the brown truck to hurry up... ;-)
I shoot out to about 1500 sometimes (a little farther). Not regularly. But sometimes. And it takes my rifle about 17 mils to get there. Sometimes more. Sometimes less. Depends on the location and the weather. Non-issue, though. Stiffness in the turret isn't my concern, reticle shift is. Maybe this issue is an anomaly and just on the one particular scope tested. But there is a bit of reticle movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSU8-e9o5xY
0.2 mil of shift at 100 is over half a foot at 1000. How often would I be shooting with the turret somewhere within that 2nd rev transition? I don't know. But I don't want to be caught in that situation. So that's what's giving me hesitation as far as a purchase decision goes. I'm not trying to take a shit on these scopes. Please don't jump down my throat about having a legit concern. My plan is to stop by CS Tactical and check one out in person. But I'm out of town for work at the moment. So when I get back
And I'll bring my TT along for a comparison. I'll check out a Nightforce while I'm there. These three are basically what's on my list for my next rifle. I shoot out to about 1500 sometimes (a little farther). Not regularly. But sometimes. And it takes my rifle about 17 mils to get there. Sometimes more. Sometimes less. Depends on the location and the weather. Non-issue, though. Stiffness in the turret isn't my concern, reticle shift is. Maybe this issue is an anomaly and just on the one particular scope tested. But there is a bit of reticle movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSU8-e9o5xY
0.2 mil of shift at 100 is over half a foot at 1000. How often would I be shooting with the turret somewhere within that 2nd rev transition? I don't know. But I don't want to be caught in that situation. So that's what's giving me hesitation as far as a purchase decision goes. I'm not trying to take a shit on these scopes. Please don't jump down my throat about having a legit concern. My plan is to stop by CS Tactical and check one out in person. But I'm out of town for work at the moment. So when I get back
Let us know when you want to come in and when you want to check some stuff out.
I have no clue what's going on with that particular scope in that video, but if it was a common issue we wouldn't give some of our shooters Minox Scopes.
I shoot out to about 1500 sometimes (a little farther). Not regularly. But sometimes. And it takes my rifle about 17 mils to get there. Sometimes more. Sometimes less. Depends on the location and the weather. Non-issue, though. Stiffness in the turret isn't my concern, reticle shift is. Maybe this issue is an anomaly and just on the one particular scope tested. But there is a bit of reticle movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSU8-e9o5xY
0.2 mil of shift at 100 is over half a foot at 1000. How often would I be shooting with the turret somewhere within that 2nd rev transition? I don't know. But I don't want to be caught in that situation. So that's what's giving me hesitation as far as a purchase decision goes. I'm not trying to take a shit on these scopes. Please don't jump down my throat about having a legit concern. My plan is to stop by CS Tactical and check one out in person. But I'm out of town for work at the moment. So when I get back
Definitely didn't intend to jump down anyone's throat! Just trying to put things in perspective. Hope you find something that does the trick.
I'm really wanting to check one of these out with the mr4 reticle but there are no high end scope dealers in my area that I know of. When I get my Tikka 223 varmint I'm going to swap the scope from my 260 to it, and I just may have to get the Minox to try out. What kind of warranty these come with?
Essentially a vortex warranty except right now they are non-transferrable warranties; however, if you see CStactical's prior posts this is being worked on.
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