MOA vs Mil

Bringtherain

Private
Minuteman
Sep 28, 2020
32
16
Louisiana (LA)
lmao!! This made for a great read while sitting at work avoiding actual work. not everyone from Niceville is an asshole though. some of us are just ignorant
 

Mute

Curmudgeon
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Sep 9, 2003
    996
    277
    54
    Diamond Bar, CA
    www.amtraininggroup.com
    I think somewhere along the way in this 11 pages, he finally "got it" and understood what people were trying to get through to him, but his ego wouldn't let him admit that he didn't understand it in the beginning. So, his argument slowly morphed to make it sound like he was arguing something else.

    His statement early on about calling a miss for a shooter as "3 in. low", and the shooter (using a mil scope) looks at him like, "WTF? because the math is more difficult" was the most telling of his incomprehension. No, the shooter is looking at you like "WTF?" because he wants a new spotter who knows how to call. He kept circling back to calling misses in inches. I never saw him explain how he measured those inches from 500 (or whatever) yards away. We all know you have to use a reticle, and the only way to get inches from a reticle is to do a completely useless math conversion and convert the units he measured with the reticle (whether mil or MOA) into a DIFFERENT unit (inches) that is also completely useless to the shooter because it requires ANOTHER completely un-necessary conversation BACK to "whichever" units are on the scope. He just couldn't grasp the stupidity of calling a miss in inches, or why you would never do that.
    This is the core of his MOA=Inches nonsense. If you call 3" instantly = 3MOA or other such stupidity. Because math.
     

    Mike Casselton

    Non-Bidenary Trunk Monkey
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 25, 2007
    6,631
    9,990
    Lithia, FL
    lmao!! This made for a great read while sitting at work avoiding actual work. not everyone from Niceville is an asshole though. some of us are just ignorant

    Bubbaville.

    At least that's what it was called in the late 80s and early 90s.

    I bet it's grown up a lot since then.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: lash

    TriggerJerk!

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Oct 27, 2019
    372
    466
    No, there were real things to learn from this thread:

    • Implicit assumptions are a bane to explicit communication.
    • People are just primates, and we stick to what we know.
    • He understood reticle use, but insisted certain units worked “better” with certain reticles. That is subjective.
    • People on SH are knowledgable, patient, and friendly, until you piss them off.
    • Humor is the reciprocal of anger.
    • We will only discuss, debate, entertain MOA vs MIL related questions during February of each year (during the Annual SH MOA vs MIL Festival).
     

    TriggerJerk!

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Oct 27, 2019
    372
    466
    1613718221474.jpeg
     

    Fig

    Janitor of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 15, 2018
    7,085
    16,092
    The Most Dangerous City in the USA
    Stupidity can’t explain this kind of willful ignorance. You can only explain it so many ways and teach it as you would to a child before it becomes clear it’s some sort of personality defect.

    The answer is related to their ego, their very sense-of-self. Some people have such a fragile ego, such brittle self-esteem, such a weak "psychological constitution," that admitting they made a mistake or that they were wrong is fundamentally too threatening for their egos to tolerate. Accepting they were wrong, absorbing that reality, would be so psychologically shattering, their defense mechanisms do something remarkable to avoid doing so — they literally distort their perception of reality to make it (reality) less threatening. Their defense mechanisms protect their fragile ego by changing the very facts in their mind, so they are no longer wrong or culpable.
     

    Nik H

    Constantly Learning
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jan 22, 2014
    9,051
    9,870
    Small town New England
    No, there were real things to learn from this thread:

    • Implicit assumptions are a bane to explicit communication.
    • People are just primates, and we stick to what we know.
    • He understood reticle use, but insisted certain units worked “better” with certain reticles. That is subjective.
    • People on SH are knowledgable, patient, and friendly, until you piss them off.
    • Humor is the reciprocal of anger.
    • We will only discuss, debate, entertain MOA vs MIL related questions during February of each year (during the Annual SH MOA vs MIL Festival).
    I learned that the OP is window licking cunt who knows jack about the art of shooting a rifle
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MtnCreek and Bender

    chickon1

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 17, 2019
    192
    65
    Nicevile, FL
    Back in action.. Thanks again for being such a great group of guys here and taking in consideration different view points on topics. Thank god this forum isn't like FB where you get Banned for topics people don't agree with. Yes, I live in Niceville and if any of you would like to meet up in Holt or Baker ranges to BS, let me know. .
     
    • Like
    Reactions: TriggerJerk!

    BuildingConceptsllc

    Don't Start None, won't be none.
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Nov 13, 2020
    1,524
    756
    Alabama
    The math practictally don't mean squat if the distance is unknown either.

    If you can somewhat guess the yardage is away within a reasonable error (say 50-100 yards). Apply the dope setting. And as long as you can spot your miss.....you can measure using the reticle and apply whatever you initially put on. No math or backtracking required.

    Granted, you still have to spot your splash or trace.

    Not someone in a hunting application is recommended to do. But a competition setting its perfectly fine.
    This thread has been interesting to read. Of course this point is left out of the discussion most of the time. "If you can see your miss" and "is the range known" , which has lead to much of the talking past each other . If the situation is such that you have one shot, and must dial it, AND you know the range.... OR you know the size of the target... then it's a different situation than if you are shooting and using your retical to measure your miss. (Pardon the run on and poor grammar )

    I wouldn't dare to comment on anything concerning math being involved, mil vs moa, or anything else of that nature ITT, just pointing out that when typed communication is used, many details are overlooked or assumed to be understood by both parties, due to the method of communication. (It can be a whole bunch of typing to fully lay out the parameters of a conversation, and thus, laying it all out isn't done many times). Tis the nature of forums and text messages.... And Tis also how to text and piss off the wife, without knowing!
     

    Tokay444

    Black Rifles Matter.
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 24, 2019
    2,155
    2,679
    Back in action.. Thanks again for being such a great group of guys here and taking in consideration different view points on topics. Thank god this forum isn't like FB where you get Banned for topics people don't agree with. Yes, I live in Niceville and if any of you would like to meet up in Holt or Baker ranges to BS, let me know. .
    You can have your opinion, but it's still wrong.
     

    Fig

    Janitor of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 15, 2018
    7,085
    16,092
    The Most Dangerous City in the USA
    No. That's not the problem. It's that his brain can't comprehend that it's basically a coincidence that 1 moa is near an inch @ 100yds, and it isn't a correlation. That it falls apart at real shooting distances doesn't seem to matter to him, because his only experience is 100 yards on a square range, so he has to be right. If I said that ten degrees Fahrenheit was about equal to ten liters he would understand that those units are not corollary at all, but somehow because angle to linear is close to a 100-1 at this specific distance is won't penetrate his skull no matter how many ways it is explained. By almost the exact same reasoning he was insisting that mrad is part of the metric system rather than decigrades, which are actually more clumsy to use than mrad.

    In short, he's ignorant but thinks he knows everything, which is exactly what's wrong with the USA as a whole. Even if he is an expert is some narrow field he is a classic Dunning-Kruger. He thinks he can tell an entire community of military snipers and top rifle competitors that they're all stupid, and only he possesses the unique knowledge to understand how to put a round on target.

    I simply cannot fathom the horrifying reality that must have been to have such a horses-ass, know-it-all as a divO or OIC. Those poor, sorry bastards... If Trump were President he would track them all down, give them Presidential citations, and put multiple letters in their jackets. The top enlisted would be immediately promoted to 4 star General.
     

    seansmd

    In a minute man
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 8, 2018
    1,765
    1,339
    San Jose, CA
    I think @chickon1 and @joelinux may be separated at birth?

    Two legendary thread OP who continue to engage, although Joe the self proclaimed engineer was off lurking in the titty thread(not a bad investment in time) until one of his legendary threads was necro'ed, and he snapped back to role, or should I say troll!

    We are gifted with two of these at the same time, enjoy!
     

    LeftyJason

    Thumbnail-les
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 8, 2017
    2,517
    3,761
    34
    Kaysville Utah
    Inspirated by MILOA, I created a new reticle for those who like to like to acquire targets easily and shoot fast, but also like to measure stuff and do not know about angular units much.View attachment 7566730
    Is that related to the monkey tail? Are you required to have a monkey tail cut into body hair somewhere to use it?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Tokay444

    Dthomas3523

    Hall Monitor
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Supporter
    Commercial Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jan 31, 2018
    10,815
    15,539
    South Texas
    Back in action.. Thanks again for being such a great group of guys here and taking in consideration different view points on topics. Thank god this forum isn't like FB where you get Banned for topics people don't agree with. Yes, I live in Niceville and if any of you would like to meet up in Holt or Baker ranges to BS, let me know. .

    You get banned for being a dumbass or an asshole.

    In your case, you were banned for both.
     

    TurboTrout

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 30, 2020
    2,375
    1,986
    East Coast
    In my industry there are some who use MPH and statue miles, others who use knots and nautical miles, as long as you pick one and stay with it, it doesn’t matter.

    From what I’ve gathered if your scope is MOA, calculator/dope is MOA, spotting scope is MOA, other scopes are MOA, it’s all good, or vise versa in mil, so dont mix match stuff, pick one and stick with it.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: iceng and WY_Chas

    LuvDog

    Roof Korean
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 16, 2020
    350
    305
    I keep thinking this thread is going to die, but it keeps on delivering.

    Here is the only time I mix linear and angular is when I have a standard sighting target that has inch gradients and when I’m calling shots for a new shooter who is pulling a trigger for the first time ever.

    And my family thinks I’m a communist, but wish we’d switch to metric
     

    Tokay444

    Black Rifles Matter.
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 24, 2019
    2,155
    2,679
    I keep thinking this thread is going to die, but it keeps on delivering.

    Here is the only time I mix linear and angular is when I have a standard sighting target that has inch gradients and when I’m calling shots for a new shooter who is pulling a trigger for the first time ever.

    And my family thinks I’m a communist, but wish we’d switch to metric
    Way to get new shooters off on the wrong foot.
     

    joelinux

    hed weezul
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 1, 2019
    484
    647
    I think @chickon1 and @joelinux may be separated at birth?

    Two legendary thread OP who continue to engage, although Joe the self proclaimed engineer was off lurking in the titty thread(not a bad investment in time) until one of his legendary threads was necro'ed, and he snapped back to role, or should I say troll!

    We are gifted with two of these at the same time, enjoy!
    For the record, I have asked repeatedly for the titties to be put in a separate thread. I'm lurking in a few threads, but I'm in that one because it has the best memes on this forum.

    And it is good to know that I'm living in @seansmd 's head rent free.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: seansmd

    chickon1

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 17, 2019
    192
    65
    Nicevile, FL
    Just so you do think I'm a complete retard and ban me for life. I will reframe from mathes.

    Mil or MOA you can use inches, feet, yards, meters, whatever as an input and get the same output.

    Mil (millirad) is a 1000 of rad

    MOA is a 1/60 of a Degree
     

    joelinux

    hed weezul
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 1, 2019
    484
    647
    Just so you do think I'm a complete retard and ban me for life. I will reframe from mathes.

    Mil or MOA you can use inches, feet, yards, meters, whatever as an input and get the same output.

    Mil (millirad) is a 1000 of rad

    MOA is a 1/60 of a Degree
    In the thread that @seansmd referenced, I was specifically asking which was more popular, not which was better.

    There was someone on there that said that there were competing standards for MOA, but Mil is Mil is Mil, and that Mil was becoming more the standard.

    For me, that made up my mind. YMMV.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: chickon1

    Tokay444

    Black Rifles Matter.
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 24, 2019
    2,155
    2,679
    In the thread that @seansmd referenced, I was specifically asking which was more popular, not which was better.

    There was someone on there that said that there were competing standards for MOA, but Mil is Mil is Mil, and that Mil was becoming more the standard.

    For me, that made up my mind. YMMV.
    Apparently there are actually two mils. Milliradians, and military milliradians which are slightly rounded.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Bender

    armorpl8chikn

    Colonel Angus
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Aug 17, 2010
    6,815
    16,108
    52
    Face Slapping Distance
    My previous post in here was referenced in AHPK(axe handles per kilogram) it is a rough measurement, but with a little simple math, and the use of the "metric 6 constant multiplied with pie" it is a relatively simple formula, thus making AHPK a viable tool.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: lash

    Tokay444

    Black Rifles Matter.
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 24, 2019
    2,155
    2,679
    My previous post in here was referenced in AHPK(axe handles per kilogram) it is a rough measurement, but with a little simple math, and the use of the "metric 6 constant multiplied with pie" it is a relatively simple formula, thus making AHPK a viable tool.
    The more I think about it, the more I agree that this is the correct unit for OP, since wanting to know the distance of a miss as a linear deviation when your scope is already calibrated in an angular measurement, makes as much sense as wanting to know the mass of the target you missed. You’ve got the liner, axe handles, and mass in kilograms.
    He’ll still cry that he has to convert from kg to lbs, and accuse you of using metric axe handles though.