At below $4k... that's, uh, suddenly really difficult to pass on, given the preliminary reviews.
Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56
- Thread starter Just Macca
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Edit: that’ll teach me to post after my bedtime.
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Especially after watching Ilya's video, he said the 6-36 is a slight hair behind the TTs. Coin flip at that point.
TT needs to stop fucking increasing prices every year though, at this point is just becoming a BE Meyers repeat where the MAWL went from 2500 to 3600 within the span of a few years.
I thought the Schmidt that I tried during the SH class had a 34 mm tube.
I kind of like the 36mm that ZCO and TT offer but the price of this Schmidt is pretty crazy.
Hard to justify an almost $2K premium for the TT.
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I’m able to see targets at a mile fairly clearly even in heavy NC mirage with my decrepit 5-25. If the 6-36 is any better it would be a massive upgrade at this price.
Schmidt 34mm. TT 735p 36mm. Apologies if I was unclear.
Here in Aus now ..the TT 7-35 is literally double the price of the S&B 6-36!!
Also...the NEW S&B 5-25 is also much cheaper than the previous Gen 5-25........ and cheaper than the 6-36..
I'm sure it will be soon.
Just got the email from EO. It’s a limited time sales event. So get them while you can at that price.
Don't love the p5 or gr2id enough to justify it....
Also confirmed it was just the 636 not other SB for a limited sale
Honestly, despite the price I’ll probably just do a 735p to get the same reticle across most of my guns.
Not likely that they’ll stay at this price, to see a brand new Schmidt drop in price like this is highly unusual, it sure seems #FOVGate is affecting USA sales. From all accounts the scopes are amazing, but the US is likely Schmidts largest market for this scope outside of any mil/le contracts and if interest is waning that could influence Schmidt USA to offer below MAP pricing.
Got this from a friend who has all three (I've had the ZCO 5-27 and the TT 5-25 but yet to get the S&B 6-36 because I'm biased with the neutered FOV)
TT Gen 5-25 3xr
- 10x: 20.2 mil
- 20x: ~10.3 mil
- 25x: 8.4 mil
- 10x: 18.6 mil
- 20x: 9.5 mil
- 25x: 7.7 mil
- 10x: ~18.2 mil
- 20x: 9.1 mil
- 25x: ~7.7 mil (there is no index for 25x, so I approximated)
According to the specs, the ZCO ought to have the widest FOV of all three of these scopes, but actual real world performance shows it has the least FOV. This was confirmed with my alpha scope review last year as well so I am pretty confident that the ZCO specs provided on their website are for those sold outside the USA but similar to S&B they have neutered the FOV (due to the Swaro patent issue) for scopes intended for the USA. ILya has said he can see the field stop when looking inside the ZCO...
@koshkin so, regarding the general silence from scope manufacturers about #FOVgate, why do you think this is?
I know Leica actually invested time and energy in the courts to fight that stupid Swaro patent (won one, lost one). But if some small company held that patent I’d think the scope manufacturers would have issued forth on Twitter, in videos, during trades shows, or something. More than Leica’s one or two little press releases.
Is it the silence because many manufacturers need Swaro for something? Like…(guessing here)…certain glass coatings or the ability to actually apply coatings?
I know Leica actually invested time and energy in the courts to fight that stupid Swaro patent (won one, lost one). But if some small company held that patent I’d think the scope manufacturers would have issued forth on Twitter, in videos, during trades shows, or something. More than Leica’s one or two little press releases.
Is it the silence because many manufacturers need Swaro for something? Like…(guessing here)…certain glass coatings or the ability to actually apply coatings?
Got this from a friend who has all three (I've had the ZCO 5-27 and the TT 5-25 but yet to get the S&B 6-36 because I'm biased with the neutered FOV)
TT Gen 5-25 3xr
SB PM II 6-36 P5FL (USA Version)
- 10x: 20.2 mil
- 20x: ~10.3 mil
- 25x: 8.4 mil
ZCO 527 MPCT3
- 10x: 18.6 mil
- 20x: 9.5 mil
- 25x: 7.7 mil
This confirms my suspicion that the ZCO FOV specs are incorrect. AFOV based on specs provided by ZCO show it at 23.20° while the specs for TT are 22.92° and specs for S&B (USA) are 21.66°.
- 10x: ~18.2 mil
- 20x: 9.1 mil
- 25x: ~7.7 mil (there is no index for 25x, so I approximated)
According to the specs, the ZCO ought to have the widest FOV of all three of these scopes, but actual real world performance shows it has the least FOV. This was confirmed with my alpha scope review last year as well so I am pretty confident that the ZCO specs provided on their website are for those sold outside the USA but similar to S&B they have neutered the FOV (due to the Swaro patent issue) for scopes intended for the USA. ILya has said he can see the field stop when looking inside the ZCO...
Thank you very much for this. It was exactly what I was looking for. I just placed an order for an S&B 6-36.
Lawsuits are expensive. Noone wants to deal with it and noone wants to sue Swaro just to deal with it.
There are many riflescopes out there that seem to be in violation of this patent in the US, but Swaro is not suing them. I suspect that, Swaro corporate being a bunch of arrogant Euro pricks, they simply do not care about anyone other than a couple of high end European companies. Everyone else they just do not consider their competition. I think that is shortsighted, but that's their problem. That's why there was a lawsuit with Leica. That's why it is a problem for S&B.
ILya
Totally agree on why Swaro does what it does.
But I’m a bit mystified as to why the other poor scope manufacturers never amped this issue up in social media.
I had read long ago that Swaro had a lock on most high-end optical lens coatings. Not sure exactly why…maybe they own the coating tech or patents (ha).
I’m guessing many (not all) other scope manufacturers need Swaro more than the reverse. So they grin and bear it.
This is what I was driving at. Do you know anything about the optical lens coating biz?
Sorry for the dumb question but why are you stating FOV in mils? Never seen that beforeGot this from a friend who has all three (I've had the ZCO 5-27 and the TT 5-25 but yet to get the S&B 6-36 because I'm biased with the neutered FOV)
TT Gen 5-25 3xr
SB PM II 6-36 P5FL (USA Version)
- 10x: 20.2 mil
- 20x: ~10.3 mil
- 25x: 8.4 mil
ZCO 527 MPCT3
- 10x: 18.6 mil
- 20x: 9.5 mil
- 25x: 7.7 mil
This confirms my suspicion that the ZCO FOV specs are incorrect. AFOV based on specs provided by ZCO show it at 23.20° while the specs for TT are 22.92° and specs for S&B (USA) are 21.66°.
- 10x: ~18.2 mil
- 20x: 9.1 mil
- 25x: ~7.7 mil (there is no index for 25x, so I approximated)
According to the specs, the ZCO ought to have the widest FOV of all three of these scopes, but actual real world performance shows it has the least FOV. This was confirmed with my alpha scope review last year as well so I am pretty confident that the ZCO specs provided on their website are for those sold outside the USA but similar to S&B they have neutered the FOV (due to the Swaro patent issue) for scopes intended for the USA. ILya has said he can see the field stop when looking inside the ZCO...
Assuming the reticle is accurate, with that method used above it's quick and easy to compare relative FOV of various scopes without needing a large wall at a known distance marked with measured graduations.
All you need to do for the method described above is look at the image and see how much of the reticle is visible at a given magnification, and if you want to know the more common measurement of FOV in meters at 100 meters you know how much a mil subtends at a known distance-- so just do the math required.
Again, this is all dependant on having an accurate reticle.
Thank you...I didn't consider that but makes perfect sense
You want fov buy a March 4.5-28. Easily 20% wider than a ZCO.
Or try a non-US market S&B 6-36, the apparent FOV at a given magnification is even wider than the March.
(Sorry, just trying to stir things up.)
The first US company to retrofit Schmidt USA 6-36's and remove the field stop will get a lot of business. Premier Reticles made their business by removing Leupold Lameicles and replacing with better designs, I am assuming the Schmidt field stop is glued in so any optics facility with a clean room should hopefully be able to fix this? I used to work for a company that had clean rooms and some guys who could probably do this retrofit, sad that company isn't around anymore
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Which is what they used to be back in 2019... SB appears to just think the us market will bear 4.4k now for that scope and they are high on crack
High on crack was last years prices, they've come down a little so I think most of them are just on meth now
Hoping Schmidt USA comes all the way back to just being on Benadryl at some point. They did this once before in the mid twenty teens, prices kept rising and then all of a sudden they came back down to earth. I suppose any company is welcome to price their products at what they think they're worth; however, in the end the market will usually dictate whether that is acceptable or not. A new TT 7-35 is circa AUD $10K+ now.. ..... So in Aus TT pricing is real hard to swallow ....so to a degree we get screwed on that!!
Chump change, you should be able to sell a few wombats for that
But seriously, that is a tough pill to swallow, with the limited FOV of the 7-35 I would think the Schmidt 6-36 would be much better. I actually had a TT 7-35 pre ordered, BUT i have been so impressed with my S&B 6-36,s..... i cancelled my TT order.Chump change, you should be able to sell a few wombats for that
A mate has just ordered another S&B 6-36 to replace his ZCO ..
I don't know, maybe @SkyScrapin can give us the mil values (sorry to put you on the spot brother). Based on AFOV values, the 7-35 will not have as wide FOV as the 5-25.
Based on the specs the TT 7-35 has a narrower apparent FOV than the 5-25, so the 5-25 should have a wider image than the 7-35 at the same magnification.
TT 5-25 AFOV: 22.92 degrees
TT 7-35: 21.66 degrees
This of course depends on the specs being correct... notably, it appears the US version of the ZCO 527 might not have as wide as an FOV as the spec sheet claims it does.
Being that I don't know anything about the Swarovski patent infringement issue, what I was asking is are both the 5-25 and 7-35 TT affected by the same infringement issue?
The 5-25 is above the 22 degree apparent fov in the Swarovski patent, while the new 7-35 is just under the 22 degrees in the patent. The 5-25 might be getting away with it simply because it's an older design inherited from premier.
The TT 7-35 on the other hand has the same exact same apparent FOV angle as the neutered US market S&B 6-36, so you can take a guess as to why... because TT is not publishing 2 sets of FOV values for the US and non US market like S&B is. I have not emailed Tangent to confirm if patent compliance is the reason their newest scope has a narrower apparent field of view than their older scope, but that is possibly the reason.
See earlier test @jbailey and I performed:
Compare to TT website which is 0.9 degrees (1.6m @ 100m).
The FOV at the high end of TT525P is comparable to SB636 at same approximate power, so mainly all powers <25x are where the TT will have more apparent FOV vs S&B.
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Got this from a friend who has all three (I've had the ZCO 5-27 and the TT 5-25 but yet to get the S&B 6-36 because I'm biased with the neutered FOV)
TT Gen 5-25 3xr
SB PM II 6-36 P5FL (USA Version)
- 10x: 20.2 mil
- 20x: ~10.3 mil
- 25x: 8.4 mil
ZCO 527 MPCT3
- 10x: 18.6 mil
- 20x: 9.5 mil
- 25x: 7.7 mil
This confirms my suspicion that the ZCO FOV specs are incorrect. AFOV based on specs provided by ZCO show it at 23.20° while the specs for TT are 22.92° and specs for S&B (USA) are 21.66°.
- 10x: ~18.2 mil
- 20x: 9.1 mil
- 25x: ~7.7 mil (there is no index for 25x, so I approximated)
According to the specs, the ZCO ought to have the widest FOV of all three of these scopes, but actual real world performance shows it has the least FOV. This was confirmed with my alpha scope review last year as well so I am pretty confident that the ZCO specs provided on their website are for those sold outside the USA but similar to S&B they have neutered the FOV (due to the Swaro patent issue) for scopes intended for the USA. ILya has said he can see the field stop when looking inside the ZCO...
That is a neat way of checking FOV, never thought about it.
Just did the same with my EU 6-36x56 also with the P5FL, and got the following results:
• 10x: 22.2 mil
• 20x: 11.2 mil
• 25x: 9.0mil
Take the numbers for what it is, I have never done this before and readings are approximate, but no doubt there is a difference. Maybe someone can do the maths to verify the numbers.
That is…quite a bit more than the US version! Thx.
Yeah not exactly subtle!!
Aussie version is the same as Euro version
You broke me, woofie. Broken man walkin’Yeah not exactly subtle!!
Aussie version is the same as Euro version
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