Meh depends on the model and turret config honestly imo
Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56
- Thread starter Just Macca
- Start date
Meh depends on the model and turret config honestly imo
Anyone remember $2500 PMII 5-25x56 from Euro? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I hope this drops the prices of US PMii’s… But probably not
It raised them silly go look....
I’ve been curious as to what S&B is smoking. So here’s a thought experiment.
If I, armchair market/brand analyzer, take a look at what is in the mind of the consumer from my point of view and set aside actual physical reality, then here is my hot take (from reading the hide forums at length):
HIGH-END TACTICAL SCOPE MARKET BRAND PERCEPTION (USA)
Again people, brand perception not (necessarily) reality. Sorry to harp but I’m trying to cut the low-reading-comprehension folks out there from responding, “But muh Quigley-Ford won the latest Peterson’s Hunting scope-off…”.
So, in my mind, I’m not sure what S&B is doing. Sure, they have longer history in this niche, their logo is cool, German stuff is cool, but just pricing yourself higher than almost any high-end rifle with your almost $9k scope is…batshit crazy.
What’s next? S&B thinks it’s better than high-end NV/thermals too? New price in 2023: the floor starts at $30k suckas.
Like Porsche just saying, ok, we think we’re better than Ferrari so fuck, our 911 is now $10,000,000.
Just raising prices does not a dragster make. Pure price raising into the stratosphere without offering much else gives you something like a Bentley.
Unless your market is the price insensitive conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure weirdos who are the most into Velben goods. This article is amusing.
Is S&B going the way of gold COD guns, fashion hoodies that cost $500+, and anything with a diamond in it?
Consider this a hypothesis, a working document. Interested in hearing other’s thoughts.
If I, armchair market/brand analyzer, take a look at what is in the mind of the consumer from my point of view and set aside actual physical reality, then here is my hot take (from reading the hide forums at length):
HIGH-END TACTICAL SCOPE MARKET BRAND PERCEPTION (USA)
- the perception of pure durability market segment is pretty well locked up by Nightforce
- the perception of “best glass” segment is owned by TT/ZCO/Minox/March with some S&B scopes in there. TT maybe ekes out a win (again, market perception, not fact)
- old(er) skool-kool / classy segment is owned by S&B (I’m not going into vintage stuff). One could also call this segment the It’s Cool Because It’s German.
- Turrets of the Gods perception winner is TT
- value = Vortex, perception-wise, with Sightron as a newcomer
- the Good Enuff / Miss Congeniality brand perception prize goes to the Mark 5 Leupold
- Edit: the OMG I CAN SEE EVERYTHING NOW perception winners are certain ZCO & March scopes with their wide-angle eyepieces
Again people, brand perception not (necessarily) reality. Sorry to harp but I’m trying to cut the low-reading-comprehension folks out there from responding, “But muh Quigley-Ford won the latest Peterson’s Hunting scope-off…”.
So, in my mind, I’m not sure what S&B is doing. Sure, they have longer history in this niche, their logo is cool, German stuff is cool, but just pricing yourself higher than almost any high-end rifle with your almost $9k scope is…batshit crazy.
What’s next? S&B thinks it’s better than high-end NV/thermals too? New price in 2023: the floor starts at $30k suckas.
Like Porsche just saying, ok, we think we’re better than Ferrari so fuck, our 911 is now $10,000,000.
Just raising prices does not a dragster make. Pure price raising into the stratosphere without offering much else gives you something like a Bentley.
Unless your market is the price insensitive conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure weirdos who are the most into Velben goods. This article is amusing.
Is S&B going the way of gold COD guns, fashion hoodies that cost $500+, and anything with a diamond in it?
Consider this a hypothesis, a working document. Interested in hearing other’s thoughts.
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Not that I’m anything close to an expert on this shit… but my opinion is that they still feel they are THAT much ahead of any of the other competition like they were 20 years ago. The truth is, they are not. (At least that’s my opinion. Please correct me if I’m wrong)
That’s how I read how they think their place in the marketplace should be.
S&B is like that once super-hot gal, now with a little chub and a little chicken-neck waddle but she still has that winsome smile. She’s getting older, kids in high-school, but who still wears visible g-strings under her jeans on purpose…she thinks she’s an 11, but the boys nowadays perceive her as a solid 7.9 on the MILF scale.
(Again…perception…not physical reality. Perception can = reality, but not necessarily)
Edit: ZCO & TT are like the pneumatic hot 18yr old babes in cheerleader outfits bouncing on trampolines in comparison, puffing their pom-poms and making all the boys’ eyes bug out.
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S&B 5-25 is just as up to date as a NF 5-25 with a better reticle selection and better glass.
Perception buddy. Perception, not reality. That’s what I’m talking about. In other words, market segmentation, branding, etc.
That’s why S&B changed their prices so drastically, to change their place in the consumer’s mind. But I think they became too cocksure and way overshot their target market.
Now they just look like that drunk guy who thinks he’s the suavest dude on the planet.
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How is NF 5-25 any more up to date than S&B 5-25?
Ok.
Ok.
Ok.
I am not talking about optics. Or reticles. Or how good a scope actually is.
I am talking about how I feel the general populace of precision shooters in the USA feel about certain brands of high-end tactical scopes. And how that hypothetical feeling translates into brand positioning through the lens of product pricing.
Are you picking up what I’m laying down?
This sounds like a bunch of bs or mental masturbation.
Do you know anything about who designed the 5-25 PMII?
Do you know how products are sold to you through advertising, marketing, and brand positioning?
Why should we care?
I bought my S&B because it impressed me at the range not because of any marketing. I bought my NF because of marketing.
We buy scopes for different reasons, mainly to aim rifles.
Perhaps you shouldn’t?
At least you admit that marketing works, and perhaps you broke free, however momentarily, from its grip by buying a product based more upon its merits. As you found out, pure physical/optical quality works as a sales tool as well, but has a harder time of it.
The people most susceptible to marketing seem to be the ones not aware of its power, including those who actively discount its effect (a bit like the Dunning–Kruger effect)
Product price is an element in marketing. But it’s rather boring to talk about. The following is more interesting.
To see how effective marketing can be, let’s take a cursory look at the Joe Camel logo that you currently use as your avatar.
Ignore for a moment the Hollywood sign reflected in the camel’s shades, the phallic shape of the nose, hanging balls of the upper lips, and strange vagina-like nature of the mouth clenched around the cigarette. These areas went through near-endless rounds of revisions and committee meetings. Just like any cereal box with cartoon characters does. The subliminal aspects of the design have been discussed ad nauseam.
None of the above was by accident.
In 1991, R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company was taken to task for using a cartoon to promote its product. The Journal of the American Medical Association published a study showing that by age six nearly as many children could correctly respond that "Joe Camel" was associated with cigarettes as could respond that the Disney Channel logo was associated with Mickey Mouse, and alleged that the "Joe Camel" campaign was targeting children.
R.J. Reynolds denied this. They were sued.
Above and below from this Wikipedia article:
At that time it was also estimated that 32.8% of all cigarettes sold illegally to underage buyers were Camels, up from less than one percent. [my emphasis]
Internal documents produced to the court in Mangini v. R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company, San Francisco County Superior Court No. 959516, demonstrated the industry's interest in targeting children as future smokers.
The importance of the youth market was illustrated in a 1974 presentation by RJR's Vice-President of Marketing who explained that the "young adult market ... represent tomorrow's cigarette business. As this 14–24 age group matures, they will account for a key share of the total cigarette volume—for at least the next 25 years."
A 1974 memo by the R. J. Reynolds Research Department points out that capturing the young adult market is vital because "virtually all [smokers] start by the age of 25" and "most smokers begin smoking regularly and select a usual brand at or before the age of 18."
Now, you’re not going to die from smoking your scope.I think.
Smaller (edit: high-end) outfits like TT tend to compete mainly on product quality (vs inventive marketing) because they don’t have the history, government contracts, and scale to fall back on. They are trying to scratch on by.
But don’t ever think a large manufacturer isn’t trying to pull a fast one on you.
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What happened to the rumors the PM II 6-36 would hit the market around $4k...? Oh... RUMORS 
So now reality sets in, the Vortex Gen3 6-36x56 is looking REALLY good right now, and Vortex brought it to market below $2400 (yah yah, I know MAP is $3k but give the right people a call and if you don't know the right people then send me a PM)
So now reality sets in, the Vortex Gen3 6-36x56 is looking REALLY good right now, and Vortex brought it to market below $2400 (yah yah, I know MAP is $3k but give the right people a call and if you don't know the right people then send me a PM) What happened to the rumors the PM II 6-36 would hit the market around $4k...? Oh... RUMORS
Yea zco is looking really really good right now
You will be able to get a Vortex G3 6-36 for less than half the price of a S&B 6-36 and Vortex is shipping scopes right now. Vortex is going to sell a whole lot of scopes...What happened to the rumors the PM II 6-36 would hit the market around $4k...? Oh... RUMORS
What happened to the rumors the PM II 6-36 would hit the market around $4k...? Oh... RUMORS
Considering the price you can get the new ZCO 8-40 with a standard reticle for, it kind of makes it really hard to look at the S&B 6-36 unless you like were totally wedded to S&B
I bet the 8-40 is impressive and for less than the Schmidt but doubtful less glass wise as other ZCO’s have proven. The DT II+ turrets are the real deal and the only thing close to Tangent besides March’s new locking turrets. With the way Schmidt is treating the American market right now, I think my 3-27 will be my last purchase from them unless EO has some fire sale, just too many other good options to even consider Schmidt scopes you have to be really married to a Schmidt for some reason.
I ordered the following model for my tikka t1x, just need to find a nice stock/chasis now.
www.eurooptic.com If interested the I can share my experience with the group or if you like photos of the reticle.
Only problem is that it is 3 months waiting.
Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 163-911-64F-M2-I5
FREE SHIPPING on Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 163-911-64F-M2-I5
Only problem is that it is 3 months waiting.
My hard-on for the 636 has become a bit flaccid since the US prices were announced. Even so impressions of the SB 636 would still be of interest.
EO allowed you to preorder?I ordered the following model for my tikka t1x, just need to find a nice stock/chasis now.
If interested the I can share my experience with the group or if you like photos of the reticle.Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 163-911-64F-M2-I5
FREE SHIPPING on Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 163-911-64F-M2-I5
Only problem is that it is 3 months waiting.
Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT27 MTC LT / ST ZC CT Riflescope 163-911-64F-G8-E8
FREE SHIPPING on Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT27 MTC LT / ST ZC CT Riflescope 163-911-64F-G8-E8
Anyone know exactly why are the prices so varied, like $4500-5300 ($900 difference?) it seems a lot of variation for the same optic. Are they charging a ton for the better turrets? Sorry I'm too lazy to translate the gibberish (LPI-P5FL-1cm-ccw-DT27-MTC-LT-ST-ZC-CT)Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT27 MTC LT / ST ZC CT Riflescope 163-911-64F-G8-E8
FREE SHIPPING on Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT27 MTC LT / ST ZC CT Riflescope 163-911-64F-G8-E8
Turret, reticle, and color configurations effect the price. DT II+ turrets are a $500ish upcharge from what I recall.
November of what year? Lol
You could have zero compromises
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Their catalog explains all the alphabet soup.Anyone know exactly why are the prices so varied, like $4500-5300 ($900 difference?) it seems a lot of variation for the same optic. Are they charging a ton for the better turrets? Sorry I'm too lazy to translate the gibberish (LPI-P5FL-1cm-ccw-DT27-MTC-LT-ST-ZC-CT)
35-40 mil turrets, MSR reticle
You must be shooting a really inefficient cartridge if you needed 35 mils to get to a mile......hell my 6.5 cm is only taking 25mils to get there. My prc,Norma, and 338 all do it in less than 21
33xc w solids, 35 mil 3k yards.
Accessories - Nightforce Wedge Prism 50moa Like New $750
Like new in box Shoot LR or ELR easily , great for .22s also $750 shipped Trade for Tbac certs Match 223/556 6.5cm 6cm Linked .50 Linked 556
www.snipershide.com Your wish is granted ^
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