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To be fair, Big Horn never said these would accept shouldered prefits. If that's what you want then you should upgrade to the TL3.
You can get the heavier barrel profiles. A Savage prefit tenon is 1.062", with a shouldered barrel you can get 1.250" at the shoulder and taper from there.
You can get the heavier barrel profiles. A Savage prefit tenon is 1.062", with a shouldered barrel you can get 1.250" at the shoulder and taper from there.
Also there is no need for go/ no go gauges which is esspecially nice for odd calibers. And to add to that you dont have a barrel nut, so no wrench. This means that in certain cases you dont have to remove the scope or even the stock/chassis. But you can always use red Loctite on the barrel nut. That just leaves the conture issue.
Did anyone say any action can accept prefits before smiths started doing it and companies released their tenon profiles?
But yes. Real barrel contours. A prefit MTU isnt exactly an MTU etc. No headspace issues.
To me. The confusion comes from the machining. Its easy to see the cost differences. Recoil lug. Steel. Nitride. AW mags. And all the other options on a TL3 the origin doesnt have. But I would expect the same machines produce both and would be set to the same tolerances cause that's easy enough to do
They do mention in their release... “the ORIGIN is a value priced, full feature custom action held to the same levels of quality and precision you’ve come to know from ZAI’s Bighorn actions.” Also, “The Origin actions are going to be treated with the same levels of quality control that the TL and SR series actions have been, HIGH.”
I see your point.
I am looking forward to shouldered prefits also. If I had to guess it's probably an issue with stacking tolerances. Hopefully it will get sorted out.
There's not been any contact from Keystone Accuracy as to why that would be the situation. If something got out that was different, we would expect to hear from the customer or builder what they are seeing. Without any information, it's impossible to say why they would suspend the option for shouldered prefits.
Make no mistake, we're still holding the same level of tolerance control on the Origin as any other product we produce. We stand behind the product as being able to accept shouldered pre fit barrels. How a barrel maker controls their tolerances is up to them. There's still other options out there for pre fit shouldered barrels so it would make sense that the reasoning is an outlier in a vast amount of Origin actions.
If anyone has questions about our products, please let us know and we will be happy to help.
Make no mistake, we're still holding the same level of tolerance control on the Origin as any other product we produce. We stand behind the product as being able to accept shouldered pre fit barrels. How a barrel maker controls their tolerances is up to them. There's still other options out there for pre fit shouldered barrels so it would make sense that the reasoning is an outlier in a vast amount of Origin actions.
If anyone has questions about our products, please let us know and we will be happy to help.
Ray,
Thanks for the quick response in addressing my/our concerns, I trust your quality assurance standards and your products.
TM6
I don't know much about Keystone but the image they posted makes me not want to use them. It seems crazy that a company that makes something for precision shooters would put a picture online with their tools (e.g. no-go gauge) being rusted. Makes me wonder how well they keep their reamers.
This is hilarious. You should probably stay away from them then. Too accurate for you
I’ve seen you advocating for them previously, being a mod I would assume you have more knowledge then I could ever forget. Would you be able to get some information on the examples that led Keystone to make the announcement?
If you've followed me here on the Hide you know by now I dont rep for or get paid by anyone. Many companies send me products to test and appreciate my no bs honest reviews. Keystone has been coming through with excellent prices, super fast turn around times and the accuracy I expect from a precision rifle gunsmith. All of my Keystone button and cut rifled barrels shoot tiny little groups with little to.no effort load development so yes I will speak highly of a product I can stand behind.
I dont have an Origin, but from what I was told they took measurements off the first Origin they had in house and made a shouldered barrel for it and recorded those measurements just like they have for the TL3 and Curtis, etc..
They then took a few orders for Origin prefit barrels without the customers action just like they do all the time for TL3's and shipped the barrels. Customers complained the barrels didnt headspace correctly. This hasnt been the case ever for their TL3 prefits and I have or had at least 8 or more... that's the extent of what I know
Didn’t mean to imply you were compensated by them, sorry if it came off that way. Just seen you speak highly of them.
I spoke with John at Keystone today to learn what he had seen and clarify any miss steps that may have happened on either side. Here's what we discussed:
We talked about the demand customers have to keep chambers on the tightest possible side of SAAMI specs and the difficulties that presents when producing pre-fit, shouldered barrels. The difficulty lies in the fact that we (Bighorn) have to provide a perfect product to the consumer AND they (barrel providers) have to assume a perfect product to cut a "zero tolerance" chamber. Perfection is obviously something we all strive for when delivering a product of any kind to the final consumer. If either side misses a dimension that still lies within their tolerance call out, the total stack between the two pieces have the potential to be thrown out of the final (in this case, head space gauge) dimensional tolerance range.
The TL3, along with other integral recoil lug receivers, is much easier to mate a barrel with a "zero tolerance" chamber without measuring the receiver and push the limits of SAAMI because it's only one piece that has a sub .001" tolerance range. The Origin, along with other non integral recoil lug receivers, is much more difficult to make the same thing happen without measuring the receiver.
Now, like I stated earlier and from the beginning, the Origin in NO way is an inferior product with regard to dimensional tolerance or quality control to the TL3 or SR3. What is different is the non-integrated recoil lug on the Origin. In the design and production process, Aaron and I (Ray) actually had a disagreement on how we should control the thickness of the recoil lug on the Origin. I wanted a slightly larger tolerance to improve the logistics of production but Aaron wanted it to be controlled very tightly to fall in line with the scope of our quality control measures. Ultimately, Aaron won that battle and recoil lugs are controlled dimensionally to .2500" +.0004 and -.0002 per the production print. Anything that doesn't fall within those numbers is not used for our actions. Pair that with the head space control on the receiver body the same way and you can create a total stack of nearly .001". The TL3/SR3 receivers only have the one dimension to control and that makes pre-fit shouldered barrels with the tightest possible chambers within SAAMI specs much easier.
So, within John's practice of keeping his chambers as tight as possible, the Origin creates a higher total tolerance stack (still well withing SAAMI) and makes it much more difficult to achieve. Aaron and I have suggested, and John had agreed with me on the phone, that it makes more sense to allow for an additional .001" when he is measuring his chambers for pre-fit shouldered barrels intended for the Origin. It will eliminate tight head space dimensions that would need to be returned to have chambers set back slightly to conform to the action. John, from my understanding, will require someone wanting the tightest possible chamber on an Origin to send their action in for measurement. But if the customer is willing to accept a barrel with a chamber that is slightly less tight but still within SAAMI's specifications on head space, he will offer the shouldered, pre-fit barrel to them.
Bighorn has advised this to a number of different gunsmiths in the past and that practice is being used by the major companies offering pre-fit, shouldered barrels on both lines of actions we produce. There has not been a notable difference in accuracy between barrels cut the way John cuts them or the way other companies cut them and there's a thread on this very website noting that very thoroughly.
We believe Keystone Accuracy is still a good, viable option for pre-fit, shouldered barrels as long as they continue to offer them. There are no hard feelings or bad blood between the two of us in any way and we are going to do anything we can to keep that as the case.
We'll always stand behind our products as being controlled to the highest level as we manufacture every major component but our firing pins, springs and screws in house. We want our products to be among the top of the list when people ask for recommendations on a custom action. We've seen that we are right there in most conversations between the end users and top level shooters. We believe the stance we have on maintaining the highest levels of quality control and customer service are the reasons we're there. If there is anything we can do to help a customer with an issue or answer questions about or products, we'll do everything we can to make that happen.
Thank you, and have a great day! - Ray
We talked about the demand customers have to keep chambers on the tightest possible side of SAAMI specs and the difficulties that presents when producing pre-fit, shouldered barrels. The difficulty lies in the fact that we (Bighorn) have to provide a perfect product to the consumer AND they (barrel providers) have to assume a perfect product to cut a "zero tolerance" chamber. Perfection is obviously something we all strive for when delivering a product of any kind to the final consumer. If either side misses a dimension that still lies within their tolerance call out, the total stack between the two pieces have the potential to be thrown out of the final (in this case, head space gauge) dimensional tolerance range.
The TL3, along with other integral recoil lug receivers, is much easier to mate a barrel with a "zero tolerance" chamber without measuring the receiver and push the limits of SAAMI because it's only one piece that has a sub .001" tolerance range. The Origin, along with other non integral recoil lug receivers, is much more difficult to make the same thing happen without measuring the receiver.
Now, like I stated earlier and from the beginning, the Origin in NO way is an inferior product with regard to dimensional tolerance or quality control to the TL3 or SR3. What is different is the non-integrated recoil lug on the Origin. In the design and production process, Aaron and I (Ray) actually had a disagreement on how we should control the thickness of the recoil lug on the Origin. I wanted a slightly larger tolerance to improve the logistics of production but Aaron wanted it to be controlled very tightly to fall in line with the scope of our quality control measures. Ultimately, Aaron won that battle and recoil lugs are controlled dimensionally to .2500" +.0004 and -.0002 per the production print. Anything that doesn't fall within those numbers is not used for our actions. Pair that with the head space control on the receiver body the same way and you can create a total stack of nearly .001". The TL3/SR3 receivers only have the one dimension to control and that makes pre-fit shouldered barrels with the tightest possible chambers within SAAMI specs much easier.
So, within John's practice of keeping his chambers as tight as possible, the Origin creates a higher total tolerance stack (still well withing SAAMI) and makes it much more difficult to achieve. Aaron and I have suggested, and John had agreed with me on the phone, that it makes more sense to allow for an additional .001" when he is measuring his chambers for pre-fit shouldered barrels intended for the Origin. It will eliminate tight head space dimensions that would need to be returned to have chambers set back slightly to conform to the action. John, from my understanding, will require someone wanting the tightest possible chamber on an Origin to send their action in for measurement. But if the customer is willing to accept a barrel with a chamber that is slightly less tight but still within SAAMI's specifications on head space, he will offer the shouldered, pre-fit barrel to them.
Bighorn has advised this to a number of different gunsmiths in the past and that practice is being used by the major companies offering pre-fit, shouldered barrels on both lines of actions we produce. There has not been a notable difference in accuracy between barrels cut the way John cuts them or the way other companies cut them and there's a thread on this very website noting that very thoroughly.
We believe Keystone Accuracy is still a good, viable option for pre-fit, shouldered barrels as long as they continue to offer them. There are no hard feelings or bad blood between the two of us in any way and we are going to do anything we can to keep that as the case.
We'll always stand behind our products as being controlled to the highest level as we manufacture every major component but our firing pins, springs and screws in house. We want our products to be among the top of the list when people ask for recommendations on a custom action. We've seen that we are right there in most conversations between the end users and top level shooters. We believe the stance we have on maintaining the highest levels of quality control and customer service are the reasons we're there. If there is anything we can do to help a customer with an issue or answer questions about or products, we'll do everything we can to make that happen.
Thank you, and have a great day! - Ray
This is why I’ll continue to be a Bighorn customer.
Bah gawd. That's how you do customer service.
Also, this raises interesting questions about the new Mausingfield now that it's going to be having a non-integral recoil lug...
Agreed. Kudos to both Bighorn and Keystone, it's great to see companies working together to provide customers with the best product possible.
Sounds like theyve figured everytjing out on their end. Do you really think its worth sending your action in? The brass wont know if its an extra .001 long...
The scope base is screwed and pinned on. The screws come out easily enough. They are also not the same length so make sure you know which one is which.
As for the pinning, it is a tight fit. I used a rubber mallet with a piece of wood. A gentle tap and it dislodged.
Another option is to use their rear entry action wrench. You do not have to remove the rail with it.
Yes. And you don't need to worry about the recoil lug alignment since the Origin has a pinned one.
I just keep the over the action wrench with the NSS aligning fixture bc I have an R700 with no pinned lug.
My pinned base is a tight fit (doesn’t wiggle when just sitting pinned on top of the action) but not so tight that it’s difficult to remove, just pick it straight up and it’s no problem, could remove it with one finger once the screws are out. It’s not pinned like a ar15 block or anything that requires a hammer to remove.
When I got mine one of the scope bases was pretty solidly on there. Ended up putting one scope ring on the front and one on the back and just working it slowly.
Same for me. Removed the screw and it freely came off. I swapped my rail for the shorter version.
FYI Ryan at Hunt's Long range now has the recoil lug that will make the Origin compatible with TL3 shouldered barrels. Mine should be here on Wednesday and I can give a good update on it.
I will give them a call tomorrow. Eric you will love the carbon fiber proof mine is very consistent, I'm very pleased and going to get another (will probably start selling off my other barrel collection lol).
That recoil lug might be handy when it's time to rebarrel, since tl3 profits are easier to find at the moment
Did you ask what caliber choices? I'm assuming normal stuff like 223, 6CM, 6.5CM, and 308.
