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Practicality: 12.5" 308 AR10 -vs- 16" 300blk AR15

JayMazee

Student
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 13, 2010
195
26
Rocky Mountains
Look.... I don't care about a ton of things and I super don't care about bullshit like what your SEAL friend says. I'm intending to get a PRACTICAL discussion of these two 30cal options. I know this isn't a great forum for PRACTICAL advice because some of you lunatics spend $1000 on a bipod ;) But....

I wanted to buy a 12.5" AR-10. Something like a POF Revolution/Rogue, or build something up for 100% suppressed use. I know enough about tuning gas systems that I think I can make this happen and end up with a 1-8x scoped gun that can hit pretty hard at 200-300m and in. Nothing fancy. For hunting and defense.

BUT THEN... I read a post here where people discussed the 135gr loads they were using in their 12.5" 308s, and how they were dirty and loud even suppressed, still heavy guns, expensive, just generally unlikable assholes that make barely acceptable niche guns.

In terms of practical discussion (do you see how I keep refering to that?)... Right there, that seems bad. If nothing else, the special ammo and how it was still very dirty are bad signs to me.

1. If you didn't consider it very practical to make special ammo per firearm (which I do not)... Is there a sensible round that should work well in both those sizes, something I could roll for a 16" bolt gun and a 12.5" gas gun? I wouldn't want to shoot 135gr from a 16" bolt gun necessarily, as 168-175gr seems better there. But that heavy a round in a 12.5" gas gun seems like yea maybe it is dirty and loud with lots of unburnt powder.

2. A 16" AR15 is 2" longer than a 12" AR10, just difference in the receiver and a large weight difference. But, does a 16" 300blk get anywhere near the same energy as a shorter 308 in some balanced load? I guess this comes down to how much powder you're willing to use and leave unburnt?

3. It seems to be that an 8" and 16" 300blk have more ammo compatibility per barrel length sets than the 308 guns. But does this just circle back to special ammo? Where yea, you can put a 125gr round in both, but it'll be excessively loud and dirty in that 8" 300blk gun. I sort of imagine there is no free lunch, but, in terms of PRACTICAL ownership and use, maybe it's closer to ideal than 308?

I briefly considered something in greater than 30cal range but I'd rather not get into that. Most options like 350 Legend were dead on arrival. Focusing mainly on AR platforms because of again, practicality.

Am I overlooking anything? Because I'm sort of on the line of a 12.5" 308 or a 16" 300blk. Pros on the 308 is that it can definitely hit harder, Pros on the 300blk are almost everything else including ability to cycle subs for real.


RESOLUTIONS / REALIZATIONS / EDITS:

A.
So... no. There doesn't seem to be any 308 ammo that would be clean, fireball-less, efficient, quite suppressed, not gassy when fired from a 12.5" 308 that you would also want to use in a 16"-20" 308. Ignoring twists, it just seems like the only application of 12.5" 308 is battle rifle using mil/surp ammo. I don't really want to stock milsurp or reload a 130-155gr round specially for this. As to 300blk, no one questions that it covers short and longer barrels better. However, it appears to be AT BEST between 12.5" 308 and 16" 300blk super, a 50% energy difference if you don't mind the above issues with shorty 308. If you where going to kick in doors, or want ethical shots on game without a long gun, a 12.5" 308 does seem to have specific uses. Overall this discussion was about PRACTICALITY, and for me at least, it's not there.

B. Something I hadn't considered was a bullpup. Sure enough, that could work. I wouldn't mind bullpup issues here, and you COULD get a 16" 308 in a physically very short package. Sounds great! Except... The market seems to suck for options here. There is a horrible M17S that has managed to crawl out of the 80s. The Keltec RDB with it's FAL mags and extremely finicky function. The Desert Tech MRDx which was plagued with far too many issues on release and now while there is a new version, who knows if it's worth giving a shot, that said as far as practicality, they have a single gun that can be as small as a P90 but as an 11.5" 556, a normal 16" 556 or 300blk that's smaller than an 10.5" AR, and a 20" 308 that is considerably shorter than a 16" AR-10, seems great if only they could get it to work! Then finally there is the TAVOR-7 which is the only gun that possibly has any proven reliability via it's military application, but is a 2x6 in the hands and struggles to get 3MOA accuracy, this could be largely the trigger. So.... It's a pretty slim market here. Best practical solution is if Desert Tech could unfuck their gun, but I'd still expect no better than 2MOA which would be fine for me.
 
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FWIW, You're quickly approaching ATF/NFA regulations with rifle barrels less than 16". The last I checked, the law for barrel length for rifles is 16", 18' length for shotguns, and 26' overall length required for both rifles and shotguns.

Is it practical? To yourself, it sure seems like it is. To me? Hell no. I'd rather have a .223 with that short of a rifle. Do whatever you'd like! You certainly wont need "approval" from people online. I see a barrel in that size as a loss of benefits of a .308 caliber rifle.

What objective do you have or need a .308 in that type of small setup?
 
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The most PRACTICAL load out there without you making one up yourself would be some mk319. Now isn’t exactly the best time to go looking for and buying some. But there’s your answer based on your OP.

That said, you say you don’t want to make up a special load for your 12.5. You’re going to be hard pressed to find anything in a factory loading that’s going to be even remotely efficient in that short of a barrel. It’s still going to be a blasty, concussive, and heavy weight with heavy recoiling platform. Wouldn’t be my choice.
 
12.5" 308s, and how they were dirty and loud even suppressed

Am I overlooking anything? Because I'm sort of on the line of a 12.5" 308 or a 16" 300blk.

I'm not an AR fan, but have you considered a small frame ar10 and piston instead of a gas gun.

I'm reasonably happy with mine.

Don't know about 12", but if your size comparison is accurate it seems a sfar10 with a 16" would be the same size as an ar15 16".


barfcom link:
 
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Why are we comparing a 12.5" .308 and a 16" blackout? Seems like an odd comparison. Just curious. I get the size is somewhat similar, but with the 12.5" .308 you're getting a stamp anyway.

My 8" 300blk is my go-to rifle. I know that's not a popular choice, but it's so much fun I can't help myself. 300blk is never going to match the .308 ballistics wise, and I've never understood the appeal of subsonic .308. Two different animals altogether.

I've never had any issues with chopped and sized lake city brass and I can shoot pretty cheap with 125gr speer tnt supers and 209gr hi-tek coated cast bullets for subs. With the TBAC 7 I'm still shorter than a 16" AR and usually lighter to boot. And it's quiet, which ups the fun factor significantly. The 300blk is a little dirty, especially with a suppressor and fixed gas block, but it's never caused any stoppages... at least not within the couple hundred rounds I've shot in a sitting.

It's the bees knees. I'm not usually a flavor of the month type of guy, but if you go with a short BLK I can all but guarantee you won't regret it. Even including the stamp it'll probably end up being cheaper too. If you're hunting, shoot the vortx or something similar. You shouldn't have any issues on deer sized game.
 
Maybe I'm just confused by your post - but my initial reaction is that you've got everything ass backwards. If you'd said you were interested in a 16" AR10 in .308 or a 12.5" AR15 in 300blk, your question would make more sense. Because of the ballistics of each round trying to shoot a .308 out of 12.5" barrel doesn't make a whole lot of sense - you need some additional length to get the most out of the round, not to have a huge fireball coming out of the end of your gun, to cut down on noise, etc. Conversely, no reason to go to 16" on a 300 BLK because the additional length doesn't get you a whole lot.

So to answer your original question - neither of your choices seem all that practical. Reversing the barrel length of each of your choices would result in a more "practical" gun. But maybe I'm just not getting what you hope to achieve with these choices.
 
FWIW, You're quickly approaching ATF/NFA regulations with rifle barrels less than 16". The last I checked, the law for barrel length for rifles is 16", 18' length for shotguns, and 26' overall length required for both rifles and shotguns.

Yea man, I mentioned 100% suppressed in my post. A single page of paperwork and $200 doesn't scare me. HOWEVER... For the 12.5" 308, I was considering a pistol with brace.

The most PRACTICAL load out there without you making one up yourself would be some mk319. Now isn’t exactly the best time to go looking for and buying some. But there’s your answer based on your OP.

That said, you say you don’t want to make up a special load for your 12.5. You’re going to be hard pressed to find anything in a factory loading that’s going to be even remotely efficient in that short of a barrel. It’s still going to be a blasty, concussive, and heavy weight with heavy recoiling platform. Wouldn’t be my choice.

This is what I'm looking at. I don't mind making a load, but to SHARE a single load between all my 308 guns, it SEEMS worse to try and do that than doing the same with 300blk guns. At this point I might just put a 1-8x on an LMT MWS AR-15 and make that my 300blk gun. With a short or long barrel and call it good.

I'm not an AR fan, but have you considered a small frame ar10 and piston instead of a gas gun.

I have. I like the idea. I mentioned POF's revolution/rogue in my original post. It doesn't change anything except the weight. Is there a round I can load for 12.5" 308 that makes any sense at all to load into 16" 308? Not so far as I can see yet.

Why are we comparing a 12.5" .308 and a 16" blackout? Seems like an odd comparison. Just curious. I get the size is somewhat similar, but with the 12.5" .308 you're getting a stamp anyway.

My 8" 300blk is my go-to rifle. I know that's not a popular choice, but it's so much fun I can't help myself. 300blk is never going to match the .308 ballistics wise, and I've never understood the appeal of subsonic .308. Two different animals altogether.

I've never had any issues with chopped and sized lake city brass and I can shoot pretty cheap with 125gr speer tnt supers and 209gr hi-tek coated cast bullets for subs. With the TBAC 7 I'm still shorter than a 16" AR and usually lighter to boot. And it's quiet, which ups the fun factor significantly. The 300blk is a little dirty, especially with a suppressor and fixed gas block, but it's never caused any stoppages... at least not within the couple hundred rounds I've shot in a sitting.

It's the bees knees. I'm not usually a flavor of the month type of guy, but if you go with a short BLK I can all but guarantee you won't regret it. Even including the stamp it'll probably end up being cheaper too. If you're hunting, shoot the vortx or something similar. You shouldn't have any issues on deer sized game.

300 HAMR is the sweet spot
DOA. It could be better than 300blk in every single way, and might be, but it's just got no support. It isn't different enough to stand out. On the up side, it's literally the only ammo I've seen in stock, but downside again, that's the normal price of $1.50 a round and only for sale at wilsoncombat.com. Nah, I'm done with specialty rounds. What I'm looking for which between 300blk and 308 works better for short and long configs with the limitation you can make or buy one round and use it in either.
 
This is a no brainer.

If you build a 12.5" .308, you will hate it and eventually turn it into something else. As several have pointed out: heavy, painfully concussive, ridiculously filthy, it won't like the same .308 ammo your normal .308 guns like, and at most 200-300 fps advantage (in a 12.5") over 300 blk because you can only burn so much powder at a safe pressure in a certain length barrel -the excess is fireball.

With the 300 blk, you can use one load for ANY length barrel. In my opinion, the best bullet for the 300 is the Speer 125 TNT. It will do 2050 in an 8" up to 2300 in a 16". The bullet gives match grade accuracy, outstanding performance on deer and hogs, ideal for home defense; one round to do everything and does it all exceptionally well.
 
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This is a no brainer.

If you build a 12.5" .308, you will hate it and eventually turn it into something else. As several have pointed out: heavy, painfully concussive, ridiculously filthy, it won't like the same .308 ammo your normal .308 guns like, and at most 200-300 fps advantage (in a 12.5") over 300 blk because you can only burn so much powder at a safe pressure in a certain length barrel -the excess is fireball.

With the 300 blk, you can use one load for ANY length barrel. In my opinion, the best bullet for the 300 is the Speer 125 TNT. It will do 2050 in an 8" up to 2300 in a 16". The bullet gives match grade accuracy, outstanding performance on deer and hogs, ideal for home defense; one round to do everything and does it all exceptionally well.

well this is exactly the kind of Negative Nancy opinionated shit I came here looking for :) yea... I’m in agreement I think. Without special ammo it’s all pointless and 8-16” blk should probably handle a wider range. I don’t like shitty dirty concussive so I agree, there is a good chance I wouldn’t like it much.

Neither. If you must go that short and still have efficient power, build a 12.5" 6.8 or 6.5g.
I know nothing about short 6.5G. Is that really any better than 556 inside of 300m?
 
You are talking about some very odd configurations which while they can make sense typically are only built due to legal constraints or for a VERY specific job.

the first thing you have to do is define what this gun is supposed to accomplish. What is this rifles job?

As a side note as well if you already have a good defensive rifle then you are always going to be better served building the gun for how you will actually shoot it. Not your SHTF fantasy (says the guy who just backordered a CGS Helios because it takes longer to turn into a glowstick on NV among a few other reasons LOL)
Point being that we all have that go-to fighting rifle. But after you have that buy based on how you shoot and what you enjoy.


If that's a 12.5 .308 blaster you just want to make loud booms with 💥 then keep on rocking that blaster.

If you have a different role in mind then share it with us so we can offer some insight into that role.


FWIW i would say forget both and get a Tavor 7 if you are wanting .308 power in a compact gun.
 
From a practical standpoint, If you are looking at something for hunting, at 200 to 300 max range, I really don't think you are gaining anything significant going with a 308. I am not sure what you are hunting but for most game on the east cost, a 308 is not going to kill anything deader than a supersonic 300bo

With that being said, one has to consider ammo availability to a certain extent and right now, 308 is just easier and cheaper to track down.
 
Another vote for the Tavor 7. 16" 308 that's shorter than either option you are looking at I think.
 
I know nothing about short 6.5G. Is that really any better than 556 inside of 300m?

Both produce more energy with a larger bullet, my 12.5" 6.8 sends a 120gr SST at 2480fps, puts deer in the dirt. I personally would not go that short in a 6.5g but I know they preform well.

Compared to my 12.5" .223 shooting 77gr loads, the smack on steel definitely goes to the 6.8.
 
BUT THEN... I read a post here where people discussed the 135gr loads they were using in their 12.5" 308s, and how they were dirty and loud even suppressed, still heavy guns, expensive, just generally unlikable assholes that make barely acceptable niche guns.
Yes, checking in. They're loud, even suppressed, and you're going to need to roll your own to optimize speed/weight/burn rates. They are not dirty, but mine runs with gas turnt off.
1. If you didn't consider it very practical to make special ammo per firearm (which I do not)... Is there a sensible round that should work well in both those sizes, something I could roll for a 16" bolt gun and a 12.5" gas gun? I wouldn't want to shoot 135gr from a 16" bolt gun necessarily, as 168-175gr seems better there. But that heavy a round in a 12.5" gas gun seems like yea maybe it is dirty and loud with lots of unburnt powder.
150-155g projos. Probably the SMK.
2. A 16" AR15 is 2" longer than a 12" AR10, just difference in the receiver and a large weight difference. But, does a 16" 300blk get anywhere near the same energy as a shorter 308 in some balanced load? I guess this comes down to how much powder you're willing to use and leave unburnt?
Unlikely to competitive with one another. They may be close in speed, but not in energy.
3. It seems to be that an 8" and 16" 300blk have more ammo compatibility per barrel length sets than the 308 guns. But does this just circle back to special ammo? Where yea, you can put a 125gr round in both, but it'll be excessively loud and dirty in that 8" 300blk gun. I sort of imagine there is no free lunch, but, in terms of PRACTICAL ownership and use, maybe it's closer to ideal than 308?
Most factory rifles are over gassed. Your mention of tuning gas will help you resolve over gassing issues. It will still get dirty fast just like all ARs do.

Subs are a novelty IMO. Sure, they're fun, but for fleshy targets, they're far from ideal.
 
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practical for what? just punching paper and steel or hunting? I can speak from experience that I did NOT like the effectiveness of a .300blk on anything I shot. deer, pig, yote, even a tactical possum (armadillo). granted. the .300blk is fun suppressed but I wouldn't expect you'll be happy with it if you wanted to hunt with it.

get a 6.8 spc and live your life.
 
I had a 10.5 AR10 308 pistol and it was fun. Loud and still loud with a can but the factory DPMS flash hider did an impressive job. The 10 would still shoot 165 grain rounds at 2300 fps, thats faster than the blackout and AK in the same length.

Practical, I mean if you live in Portland yeah, but otherwise for a truck gun go with whatever is cheap.
 
practical for what? just punching paper and steel or hunting? I can speak from experience that I did NOT like the effectiveness of a .300blk on anything I shot. deer, pig, yote, even a tactical possum (armadillo). granted. the .300blk is fun suppressed but I wouldn't expect you'll be happy with it if you wanted to hunt with it.

get a 6.8 spc and live your life.
Were you running subsonic or super?
What bullet did you use on game?
 
super's, 125 sst's. Pig's are just super tough so I kept that in mind but it just doesn't kill like other calibers that are out there... IMO
 
super's, 125 sst's. Pig's are just super tough so I kept that in mind but it just doesn't kill like other calibers that are out there... IMO
Interesting. This is very different from what most are reporting.

Not doubting your personal experiences at all, but that shouldn't be the case. If you were comparing 300 blk to 270 Winchester, it would make sense. But it doesn't make sense that a 125 grain .308 caliber bullet going approximately 2300 fps would be significantly less effective at killing hogs than a 120 grain .277 caliber bullet going only 200-300 fps faster. Gel tests indicate extremely similar performance within 200 yards as does the collective experience of hundreds of hunters over the last decade.

Could your observed difference in effectiveness be due to something else?

Were you shooting hogs past 400 yards where bc translates to a big difference in energy?

Did you use significantly different barrel lengths? (running 300 blk out of an 8" barrel at 2000 fps and then going to 6.8 SPC at 2800 fps out of an 18" barrel)

Ideal shot placement with 6.8 but less than ideal placement with 300? (Most factory 6.8 spc barrels seem to hold 1 moa or better accuracy while most factory 300 blk barrels seem to hover around 2.5-3 moa.) For example, if you shoot every hog through the heart with 6.8, but all your 300 blk shots missed the heart by an inch (due to an inaccurate barrel, not your fundamentals).

Again, not doubting or criticizing at all, just curious as I intend to hunt with my 300 blk.
 
My 22” Grendel shoots Hornady black 123 el-m at ~2590, and my 18” shoots the same at ~2490. 259x is printed on the box, so I think these velocities are good for expectations. Getting 2480 from a 12.5” is possible, I guess, but it seems high to be quoted as an expectation. I went with a short 300 black out because I wanted suppressed, and a subsonic bullet is subsonic whether it is fired from a blackout, or a 308 Winchester, or a 308wm. A heavy, long, and loud rifle that is a poor substitute for a 300 blackout? No thanks.
 
the 125 grain hornady sst sucks in a 300. blackout . I own 4 300 blackouts one 8.5 inch pistol , a 16 inch smith and Wesson carbine , a mini-14 300 blackout and a Remington 700 bolt action 300 blackout . I have killed deer with all of them , some sub-sonic and some super-sonic . barnes 110 grain ttsx out of my 8.5 inch pistol runs 2150 fps , out of my 16 inch bolt action 2,400 fps and the two carbines around 2350 fps . 300 blackout is the easiest way to shoot 308 suppressed loads and make them cycle semi auto . it is a 200 yd deer gun in all practical purpose's for me and my needs with subs it's 75yds max . I shoot a life size chicken silhouette at 200 yds with subs for fun . I also have a couple of 308 rifles and buy bulk military pulled 308 bullets 147 grain and use them for plinking bullets in both the blackout and 308 rifles . it is just more practical for me , but you will have to make up your mind for yourself .
 
FWIW, You're quickly approaching ATF/NFA regulations with rifle barrels less than 16". The last I checked, the law for barrel length for rifles is 16", 18' length for shotguns, and 26' overall length required for both rifles and shotguns.

Is it practical? To yourself, it sure seems like it is. To me? Hell no. I'd rather have a .223 with that short of a rifle. Do whatever you'd like! You certainly wont need "approval" from people online. I see a barrel in that size as a loss of benefits of a .308 caliber rifle.

What objective do you have or need a .308 in that type of small setup?
Holy fuck you completely missed the point didn't 'ya?

So he wants to know IF .308 rifles with that short of a barrel can function worth a fuck compared to a .300BLK, which is a known performer in a short barrel.

I'm almost positive he knows he'll need to form1 it if he doesn't do it on a form4.

That said, I threw everything I knew to the wind and bought a 13" SCAR barrel anyway so don't ask me... I'm positive it will be an unruly and nasty bastard. Just had to have it (now it'd be nice if the rifle gets here before the commies do).

The 8.5" .300BLK essentially mirrors AK performance with supers, outperforms .45ACP suppressed. It's hard to beat. I consider it a "must have" if you plan on a suppressed SBR. If it comes down to one or the other, I can make that real easy for you, BLK all the way.

The SBR .308? Yeah, I avoided revisiting the ballistic data, probably on purpose. I think its real claim to fame is that it will fire .308 from a shorter barrel, period, something that is appealing if you depend on issue shit. It hits harder than 5.56 but given a choice I bet they'd pick the .300BLK over it --I would.

But if you wanna be sure, just shut up and get both already.
 
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I have both a Noveske 12.5 in 308 pistol and a 300 BLK Pistol. Although I enjoy the 308 as a range gun there is no way I would use it as a close quarters/ HD pistol indoors without it being supressed. Although compact, its bulky and a flame thrower. Also with a shortened barrel I find that it is harder to stay on target for longer distance shots rather than the 300 BLK without a lot of practice. For functionality they are about the same and with a 25rd mag of 308 capacity is not much of an issue. FWIW...Some positives for a 300 BLK is the modularity with switching out 556 uppers , cannibalizing M4 mags, and no special adjustments or swap outs on a PC makes it a bit more versatile. Here is a pict for comparison:
3DF011A8-FFE4-466C-AEAF-FF9459CABDB4.jpeg
 
Not a fan of either idea. I pick on my friend for a .300 Blk because it equates to a .45 ACP, 175 to 220 grains sub sonic, 7.62x39 ballistics supersonic. On the other hand it's not my rifle.

I can't see the utility of a 12 inch .308.

Given the options, I'd pick the .300 Blk to avoid the SBR. You can load sub or supersonic either hand loading or buying ammo.

Of course either lower can support many uppers.
 
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FYI I have a 6.5 Grendel that was doing 2450 when it was 16" and now does 2315 cut down to 12". That's with 123 SST. It blows away the 300 BLK. For such a short light gun its got plenty of power. I've killed a pig at 350ish (lasered) yards with it. I've only used 110 VMAX in the 300 BLK. I've killed a handful of animals with it and don't suggest that particular combo.
 
FWIW i would say forget both and get a Tavor 7 if you are wanting .308 power in a compact gun.
Another vote for the Tavor 7. 16" 308 that's shorter than either option you are looking at I think.

Among the other replies that all make good points. I think I may have overlooked this. I like my AUG, but generally I don't like bullpups, slow to reload and awkward as hell the second you aren't in a totally normal shooting position. However...

If the option is an NFA or pistol 12.5" AR-10 with special ammo, a gun that definitely doesn't hit as hard and cross the requirements off, OR a bullpup. Well, hell, the bullpup starts seeming like an interesting option.

Crap. I think that's too important here to ignore. That's a great answer you guys. It opens other issues, like the Tavor 7 seems to be a bit of piggy for not being modular, and has questionable accuracy. I just checked in on the Desert Tech MDR and no idea if that's gotten better.

In terms of the discussion, this does seem like the most practical solution for a small 308.

Yes, checking in. They're loud, even suppressed, and you're going to need to roll your own to optimize speed/weight/burn rates. They are not dirty, but mine runs with gas turnt off.

150-155g projos. Probably the SMK.

Unlikely to competitive with one another. They may be close in speed, but not in energy.

Most factory rifles are over gassed. Your mention of tuning gas will help you resolve over gassing issues. It will still get dirty fast just like all ARs do.

Subs are a novelty IMO. Sure, they're fun, but for fleshy targets, they're far from ideal.

I think that's the theme here. I don't really want to load 135-155gr special ammo that I'd only want to use in one gun. I know that's crazy talk to some of you that separate you 16" 308 Bolt Gun A brass from your 16" 308 Bolt Gun B brass. But I'm thinking about what is practical for me.

super's, 125 sst's. Pig's are just super tough so I kept that in mind but it just doesn't kill like other calibers that are out there... IMO

Thick pig hide and shield is basically what I was getting at. I'd like something with a little bit of power, but don't really expect it to replace a hunting rifle.
 
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Fwiw I haven’t run a Tavor 7, but I do have time with an x95 and find it really easy to use. They did a good job of mitigating the usual annoyances of a Bullpup. It feels easier to maneuver and point than a much lighter AR due to how short it is and how the weight is toward the back.
 
between this thread and other one about 12.5 SBR. just changed build of G3k to 16 inch barrel. haha. was on fence anyway, and will be 100% suppressed.
 
between this thread and other one about 12.5 SBR. just changed build of G3k to 16 inch barrel. haha. was on fence anyway, and will be 100% suppressed.

Well, I'm glad my ramblings about what is practical for me might have helped you! I think the summary for me here, and I'll edit the first post for the guy who may see this year from now is that 12.5" 308 SBR is probably fine IF you are willing to very specifically tune for it. It won't EVER be efficient, but it's not unacceptably bad. It will still hit harder on a hog than 300blk ever will, but energy isn't the end all, in this case you're talking pretty similar bullets so it's fair to compare.

For me at least, and it seems you, a 16" 308 is just going to be more practical in every way except the 3.5" of length. Again for me, I've realized that despite my dislike for some bullpup aspects, it's a fair application here if I'm not talking about it as a life or death fighting carbine I want fast reloads and malfunction clearing with, something I can shoot from awkward cover of a vehicle wheel, etc.

Ideally, I'll eventually find a firearm that has an appropriate twist rate that I can get one round factory or not that would fire well from a bolt gun or this semi-auto.

Issue for me now is that in bullpup world, 308 is really rare. The RFB sucks, MRDx is a questionable shitshow still, and Tavor7 may have just as bad accuracy as the rest among other common complaints. ... So shit, I wonder if I just end up with a small frame AR10 like a POF Revolution?
 
.308 AR10 Integral? 🤷‍♂️ that would be pretty neat. Could get a decent sized tube under an Aero type handguard. Cut barrel to sufficient length, add some porting...... your ammo worries would be solved. Full speed from bolt guns, ported barrel helps slow some gasses, 4-6" of a 50° cone stack, maybe a diffusion wall?

Maybe i skimmed this thread too fast. I love my .308 guns. Got out of .300bo a few years ago when I standardized all my calibers and weapon systems.

Bull pup sounds neat though, if you like that sort of thing 🤷‍♂️
 
The thing about integrals is I count them the same as my suppressed guns anyhow. If I suppress it, it stays suppressed. The can is part of the gun. So an integral MIGHT get you away from an SBR tax stamp, but into a dedicated can that can never leave, that kinda sucks in a different way. The other thing about an integral AR15/10 is that the gas tube esp on the AR10 would be near the end of the barrel anyhow. You have maybe 4" of "suppressor space". Not to mention a one stamp gun not being able to use a one piece gas block.

It's all pretty much no go. Which is why no one does it. I'm pretty confident that if I want a short 308 firearm, the only PRACTICAL FOR ME option does seem to be a bullpup.
 
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If you're ok with a 16" 300blk ar15 then why not the 16" 308 Rogue? Its the same size. Its not an AR10, its the same size as your Ar15. Mine shoots great with 175s, and suppresses well shooting 260gr subsonic. Its as quite as my 300 blk subsonic, but has a lot more range with supers.
 
If you're ok with a 16" 300blk ar15 then why not the 16" 308 Rogue? Its the same size. Its not an AR10, its the same size as your Ar15. Mine shoots great with 175s, and suppresses well shooting 260gr subsonic. Its as quite as my 300 blk subsonic, but has a lot more range with supers.

I have heard POFs quality control makes PSA look like DD.

Another gun that I want to love Soooo badly but the issues with the firearm& CS has always kept me at bay.

It seems that for every POF rogue/revolution owner that's happy there 3 that say its a hunk of junk.
 
If you're ok with a 16" 300blk ar15 then why not the 16" 308 Rogue? Its the same size. Its not an AR10, its the same size as your Ar15. Mine shoots great with 175s, and suppresses well shooting 260gr subsonic. Its as quite as my 300 blk subsonic, but has a lot more range with supers.

That's fair. I already have 300blk and 308 guns, so neither would be a new caliber. While you're right there isn't much difference there. I just didn't come in here with that being really ideal. But, all the same, you're right. The POF 16" is definitely an option. It's probably smooth enough (for it's weight), it's probably more reliable, and it's probably more accurate than the bullpup options. It's just getting pretty long one you suppress it.

The length of the POF is unusual though. An AR-10 is usually 2" bigger than a comparable AR-15. So a 16" AR-10 should be roughly same length as an 18" AR-15. But the POF has that small frame receiver and moves the grip and trigger backwards.

IDK, like RTV said, there are hits and misses with POF Revolution / Rogue.
 
My Rogue, was compact (literally AR-15 size), light and accurate. It was not great, however, when suppressed. I went through two different AGBs and some different buffer weights but regardless, when suppressed with the AGB one or two clicks into cycling, it was tearing up brass. I think the timing of the mid-length gas on a .308 just didn't work well with a can, even when flow volume was cut to the minimum. Maybe that's why intermediate gas systems are a thing on 16" .308s, and I think that the Revolution actually has a longer intermediate system. Again, excellent rifle unsuppressed, but since you plan on shooting mostly suppressed, wouldn't recommend the Rogue.
 
My Rogue, was compact (literally AR-15 size), light and accurate. It was not great, however, when suppressed. I went through different AGBs, and some different buffer weights, and when suppressed, with the GB one or two clicks into cycling, it was tearing up brass. I think the timing of the mid-length gas just didn't work well with a can, even when flow volume was cut to the minimum. Maybe that's why intermediate gas systems are a thing on 16" .308s, and I think that the Revolution actually has a longer intermediate system. Again, excellent rifle unsuppressed, but since you plan on shooting mostly suppressed, wouldn't recommend the Rogue.
Ah, thanks. I had wondered what the differences in rogue and revo were. I thought it was just lighter weight and no adjustable block. Good info homie.
 
Ah, thanks. I had wondered what the differences in rogue and revo were. I thought it was just lighter weight and no adjustable block. Good info homie.

I can't speak for the Revolution, either regular or DI, they might be fine suppressed.

The size and weight of the Rogue was excellent though, here it is below my 16" light-ish Grendel (runs great suppressed). The rogue was actually a tad lighter.
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I put a DIctator gas block on my Rogue before I even shot it. Aside from the fact that FGM 175s shoot just outside MOA, I've had few complaints with mine. Runs fine with either a Harvester or a Resonator K. A couple clicks on the gas block and it runs Atomic 260gr subs flawlessly. It shoots most factory match ammo at 1.25 moa, and 130gr SOST at 1.5 moa, which is all the better id expect an 1/8 308 to do. Mine is just a truck gun so thats good enough for its purpose.
 

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FWIW I'm very happy with a Savage MSR10. It's a 16" 308 with a longer than carbine length gas tube, easily adjustable gas block like a FAL, and it's a proprietary size receiver between an AR10 and 15 so it's smaller than lighter than an AR10. I also like the way the handguard mounts. Very sturdy for IR laser. It checked all the boxes for me and mine has been accurate and reliable. I tried a K&M M17s 308 bullpup before that it and it was trash. The MSR10 with a 7" can is my dedicated hunting rifle.