Proud day,Pops joined Mile Club. Now...Bergers?

verdugo60

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    My dad and I both built Edges on the savage action and over Christmas we finally took his to the range. Starting at 1000, it was fun, but we were hitting with the 308's at that range too.

    We moved out another 825 yards from a thousand to be over a mile. First shot missed to the right by 6 inches and I gave him a wind adjustment and he smacked it! Dad joined the mile club and right after my brother in law did too! I had taken mine out to 2k this summer, but it still puts a huge grin on my face to shoot and hear that faint GOOOONG about 8 seconds later. Even funner was watching my dad and brother in law crack huge grins upon hearing that sound. The 4x4 foot target looks like a postage stamp at that range, and even after shooting it that far before, it is awe inspiring. If you are in an area where you can shoot this far and are on the fence about a 338 of any flavor...DO IT!!

    I love the standard Edge load of 92.5 grains of H1000 with the 300 SMK, because it is so freaking accurate AND consistent. Don't want to change that.

    My ballistic calculator shows that the Berger 300's would be supersonic all the way out to almost 2500 yards, where my SMK load only stays supersonic to about 1980 yards. For practical purposes, ($ being a big one!) I will probably stick with the Sierra, but to get another 500 yards just with a bullet switch is awful tempting. What is it about us that makes us want to go farther and farther? Now that I have done 2000, I want to do 2500. Maybe just one box of the Bergers...
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    Ok, just looked them up and the Berger 300's are actually not that bad! Barely more than the Sierras when paying full retail.I got a good deal on the SMK's so they are fine for now, but I'm curious. I know accuracy is extremely important at these distances, which is why I stocked up on the Sierra's. My current load literally stacks them on top of each other(.18" 3 shot groups were not uncommon the few times I shot it at 100 yards)

    Anyone have an accurate Edge load or even Lapua load for H1000 and the 300 grain Berger VLD/Hybrid(what's the difference between these BTW?) I am very intrigued! 2012 might be the year to make it to 2500 yards!
     

    BryanLitz

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    Currently there is only a 300 grain Hybrid available, not a VLD yet. You can read about the hybrid design here:

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/03/tangent-vs-secant-vs-hybrid-ogive-bryan-litz-explains/

    My Edge load is 92 grains of H1000 with the Hybrids seated 0.015" off the riflings. This bullet is less sensitive to seating depth, so that's not as critical. Be mindful not to seat to the same COAL as your SMK load, it will put a lot more bullet back in the case as the Berger's have a much longer nose and the COAL should be quite longer than with the SMK.

    Congrat's to you guys for getting to a mile!
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    Bryan, have you seen any issues with long jumps to the throat with the hybrid? I'd really like to stay magazine feedable, which puts me at 3.715 COAL, leaving a .191 jump in my case. Accuracy is just over a MOA right now, so I'm about to play around with max length loads right up to touching.
     

    cali_tz

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    try the Lapua 250 or 300 grain Scenar. We just joined the mile club last month with 250 Scenar. Brian's BC data shows their BC's to be higher than SMKs of same weight. Although Bryan also shows a BC and dynamic stability to be a mixed bag when comparing Lapua vs Sierra.

    And I load deep enough so that I also can mag feed, and my gun as I reported earlier reports tighter ES/SD, and 1/2MOA at 100 yard groups (when at OCW, so I can't really compare before and after), than when I loaded so that I had 0.010" jump. The jump now is much more than 0.010".
     

    BryanLitz

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    Cory,

    I've tested several of the hybrids including the .338 between 0.015" and 0.060" and found little affect on accuracy in my rifles. Success with longer jumps will depend a lot on rifle specific variables.

    One of the objectives of the hybrid design is to reduce sensitivity to jump compared to the VLD design which is generally considered to be 'overly sensitive' to jump. However the Hybrid design does not totally eliminate sensitivity of jump. You'll still have to 'try it and see'.

    -Bryan
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Currently there is only a 300 grain Hybrid available, not a VLD yet. You can read about the hybrid design here:

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/03/tangent-vs-secant-vs-hybrid-ogive-bryan-litz-explains/

    My Edge load is 92 grains of H1000 with the Hybrids seated 0.015" off the riflings. This bullet is less sensitive to seating depth, so that's not as critical. Be mindful not to seat to the same COAL as your SMK load, it will put a lot more bullet back in the case as the Berger's have a much longer nose and the COAL should be quite longer than with the SMK.

    Congrat's to you guys for getting to a mile! </div></div>

    Thanks for the kind words Bryan, and roger that on seating depths. For me it is not too big an issue as mine is just a single shot/sled fed. Without worrying about mag length I can just load to the length it shoots best at.

    Can you tell me what kind of accuracy you are getting with your H1000/ 300 Hybrid load? As I said, with the short fat smk I am giving up some BC, but it doesn't seem to mind COAL at all and accuracy is phenomenal while supersonic.
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try the Lapua 250 or 300 grain Scenar. We just joined the mile club last month with 250 Scenar. Brian's BC data shows their BC's to be higher than SMKs of same weight. Although Bryan also shows a BC and dynamic stability to be a mixed bag when comparing Lapua vs Sierra.

    And I load deep enough so that I also can mag feed, and my gun as I reported earlier reports tighter ES/SD, and 1/2MOA at 100 yard groups (when at OCW, so I can't really compare before and after), than when I loaded so that I had 0.010" jump. The jump now is much more than 0.010". </div></div>

    Thanks Cali, I think it was the Scenars that were more expensive than the Sierras I use now, not the Bergers. They average about $30 more per hundred, which doesn't seem like a ton, but adds up over the life of a rifle.
     

    dstewart51

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Thanks Cali, I think it was the Scenars that were more expensive than the Sierras I use now, not the Bergers. They average about $30 more per hundred, which doesn't seem like a ton, but adds up over the life of a rifle. </div></div>

    Keep shopping, Bruno Shooting Supply has OTM's at $70.36/100, SMK's $61.24/100 and Scenar's $71.99/100. Good prices, but you may still find better.


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    And I load deep enough so that I also can mag feed, and my gun as I reported earlier reports tighter ES/SD, and 1/2MOA at 100 yard groups (when at OCW, so I can't really compare before and after), than when I loaded so that I had 0.010" jump. The jump now is much more than 0.010". </div></div>

    Are you using VV N-570 for those?
     

    cali_tz

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    @verdugo, what do you see about the SMK that makes it a bad performer transsonic? I am trying to think about Bryan's ballistic info in his 2nd edition and figure out which is a better bullet given that the SMK and Lapua Scenar have offsetting advantages in stability vs BC. Saving money would be nice, but my first priority is accuracy from 1500 onwards, so super to trans to sub sonic ranges.

    @dstewart, yes I am using N570. The good thing about N570 and the 250 Scenar is that the case is very nearly full, and definitely full if you seat fully to factory ammo lengths. THis appears to further improve SD/ES.
     

    diego-ted

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    Re: Proud day,Pops joined Mile Club. Now...Bergers?

    I know how you feel bro, my daughter hit the mile yesterday on her first shot!! Except our target was a little smaller!! LOL

    congrats to your day! Here is our mile target, the square one, 18x24". My rig is a Savage BA 110, 338 Lapua

    IMG_0125.jpg


    Diego
     

    oinco

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    Re: Proud day,Pops joined Mile Club. Now...Bergers?

    Verdugo60, congrats on bringing more people to the dark side!

    I have had excellent results with both the 300gr SMK and the Berger hybrid in my Edge. I am still trying to find the best accuracy load/length as it is a new build. What length of jump to the lands are you at for your 300gr SMK loads?

    So far my 92.0gr H1000/Berger load seems gtg at 22moa to 1015yds.

    lmk if you want another body to carry/ring steel out to 2000+.....
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dstewart51</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Thanks Cali, I think it was the Scenars that were more expensive than the Sierras I use now, not the Bergers. They average about $30 more per hundred, which doesn't seem like a ton, but adds up over the life of a rifle. </div></div>

    Keep shopping, Bruno Shooting Supply has OTM's at $70.36/100, SMK's $61.24/100 and Scenar's $71.99/100. Good prices, but you may still find better.


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    And I load deep enough so that I also can mag feed, and my gun as I reported earlier reports tighter ES/SD, and 1/2MOA at 100 yard groups (when at OCW, so I can't really compare before and after), than when I loaded so that I had 0.010" jump. The jump now is much more than 0.010". </div></div>

    Are you using VV N-570 for those? </div></div>

    Good to know, thanks. I have local hook ups for wholesale on SMK's, but I think I know some Berger guys too. The scenars might be worth trying as well at those prices.
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">@verdugo, what do you see about the SMK that makes it a bad performer transsonic? I am trying to think about Bryan's ballistic info in his 2nd edition and figure out which is a better bullet given that the SMK and Lapua Scenar have offsetting advantages in stability vs BC. Saving money would be nice, but my first priority is accuracy from 1500 onwards, so super to trans to sub sonic ranges.

    @dstewart, yes I am using N570. The good thing about N570 and the 250 Scenar is that the case is very nearly full, and definitely full if you seat fully to factory ammo lengths. THis appears to further improve SD/ES. </div></div>

    Well, I have always felt that the Sierra was not the best for trans-subsonic use. They are great bullets in my Edge, but this summer when shooting right at their thresh-hold for subsonic(2000 yds for me) I was getting weird poi shift.Almost like they were tumbling. The only difference between the 2000 yard line and the 1760 yard line (where I hit 4 for 5) was that it was at that "magic" 1050 FPS mark.

    That's what intrigued me about the 300 gr Berger, because according to the Litz drag model in my Shooter app, at the same velocities it would go subsonic appx 500 yards farthur downrange. With that in mind, why not use the Berger if you can get an accurate load with it? For me, it will be tempting to convert over to a scenar or berger just for the higher BC offering. The only reason not to would be if it is super "jump" sensative. I hate messing with COAL. For that, those stubby SMK's in any caliber excel in my experience.
     

    cali_tz

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    @verdugo, thanks, very interesting. In my path of ELR enlightenment, I am at the point of having barely crossed a mile at 1770 with 250 Scenar, and just about to try it with 300 Scenar. Then, like you have, I plan to move out to 2000 which is definitely just a hair into the subsonic region.

    A trusted source here on the hide has gone exclusively to 250 Scenars as his better experience showed that the flatter trajectory outweighed the 300's better wind resistance, esp for 1500 plus shots.
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day,Pops joined Mile Club. Now...Bergers?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diego-ted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know how you feel bro, my daughter hit the mile yesterday on her first shot!! Except our target was a little smaller!! LOL

    congrats to your day! Here is our mile target, the square one, 18x24". My rig is a Savage BA 110, 338 Lapua

    IMG_0125.jpg


    Diego </div></div>

    Ha! I might be more embarrassed if you hadn't probably shot and dialed dope before her! All the same that is impressive and I keeed...mostly. Especially on a target that small. I think people throw those numbers around, but unless you have done it, and fairly recently it's hard to remember how far it really is! Congrats man, that's awesome you can shoot with your daughter. It is an addiction every Dad should pass to his kids! I had to do the opposite,but it's all good. Still fun.
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day,Pops joined Mile Club. Now...Bergers?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OinCO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Verdugo60, congrats on bringing more people to the dark side!

    I have had excellent results with both the 300gr SMK and the Berger hybrid in my Edge. I am still trying to find the best accuracy load/length as it is a new build. What length of jump to the lands are you at for your 300gr SMK loads?

    So far my 92.0gr H1000/Berger load seems gtg at 22moa to 1015yds.

    lmk if you want another body to carry/ring steel out to 2000+..... </div></div>

    Oinco,

    It has been a pleasure to convert people to the black art we love and hate! As far as jump, to be honest I never even measured it. I know it's hopping a bit as it isn't leaving marks from the lands. I do know that the COAL I started with shoots great in BOTH mine and my dad's guns. Granted they were put together by the same smith. As I said, that seems to be one of the advantages of the Sierra both in 308 and 338. If you would like to know the COAL I'm using let me know. I'll bust out the calipers.

    I would love to find a place to smack steel @ 2000 or more here in the Denver area, so if you know of a spot let me know. I have been doing all my ELR back "home" at my Idaho range.

    I assume the 1015 one you are shooting is at the Buena Vista range? I think I am going to get together with some other Hide dudes to go out there, I can let you know when we decide so you can meet up with us if ya like.
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cali_tz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">@verdugo, thanks, very interesting. In my path of ELR enlightenment, I am at the point of having barely crossed a mile at 1770 with 250 Scenar, and just about to try it with 300 Scenar. Then, like you have, I plan to move out to 2000 which is definitely just a hair into the subsonic region.

    A trusted source here on the hide has gone exclusively to 250 Scenars as his better experience showed that the flatter trajectory outweighed the 300's better wind resistance, esp for 1500 plus shots. </div></div>

    Muy interesante.
     

    verdugo60

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    Re: Proud day, my dad joined the mile club!

    For Oinko and anyone alse who cares to know:

    My load for the Edge with the 300 grain SMK is 92.5 grs of H1000 and a COAL of 3.88. This combo gives me about 2870 FPS @ 2300 feet above sea level. The COAL can vary by a few thousandths, from tip to tip, but many times that is just because of the shape of the hollow point end. Don't stress and keep readjusting dies like every noob does in the beginning with SMK's. From base to ogive they are virtually identical. As I said before, this load in BOTH the family's edges shoots .5 MOA or better at all distances. In my gun particlarily it's often a .25 MOA load.

    As always, work up to it. Happy hunting.