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Member Link Up Puget Sound Area Shooter's Group

Are they blowing out @ the radius, or the firing pin? If its the radius its micro stress cracks formed when the cup is formed. Unfortunately that is becoming more and more common with all manufacturers now days. There are several threads about it in the last few yrs. One started by me. Nothing to do but try a different lot.
 
Maybe the CCI primers are soft... I can hook you up with some Federal primers next time I see you and you can try those. Let me know.

CCI are known for having the harder cups of any of the primers. I don't think that would be the issue. Remington are known for having the softest.
 
No worries. Federal are just as good in my opinion. The main issue with cup hardness came up with semi-autos and slam fires. Fact is the reason they were getting slam fires was because they were trying to top load a semi-auto which is never a good idea. But... Technically CCI are "mil spec" hardness for their cups, whatever that means lol.
 
I would examine the tip of the firing pin. If it has been eroded it could start piercing primers. Is the end nice and round and smooth?

Folks,

I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of the Puget Sound group to help me with an issue. I'm starting to pierce primers with 43.2grm H4350 and 139 Scenars. I'm using Lapua brass and CCI #200 primers. Suspecting carbon and copper fouling, I cleaned the bore thoroughly. I threw everything I had at it including Sweets 7.62, Butch's Bore Shine, while using a bronze brush.

After my cleaning I got another pierced primer after 15 shots. The primers are not getting flattened out which leaves me scratching my head.

Until I can get my hands on a bore scope to see exactly what's going on (maybe I'm not getting everything out of the barrel), I'm going to drop down an accuracy node to 42gr of H4350.

Now some folks are saying that AI rifles have a reputation for primer piercing. I measured the firing pin diameter and firing pin hole and it's .003 larger than a Remington 700. Could that account for the pierced primers?

Thanks,

Ed
 
Are they blowing out @ the radius, or the firing pin? If its the radius its micro stress cracks formed when the cup is formed. Unfortunately that is becoming more and more common with all manufacturers now days. There are several threads about it in the last few yrs. One started by me. Nothing to do but try a different lot.

Hi,

They are blowing out at the firing pin. Looks like you drilled a hole in them.

Ed
 
Are they blowing out @ the firing pin dent or the radius at the edge? Has the load been good for some time, & just started? Are there any other signs of over pressure? Have you changed powder or primer lots? Need more info if you want to get to the bottom of this.
 
K. You posted while I was typing. As they are blowing out the center there should be more signs of pressure or its either the primer, or the firing pin. Check the firing pin for any erosion. If its smooth then try a different lot of primers.
 
Are they blowing out @ the firing pin dent or the radius at the edge? Has the load been good for some time, & just started? Are there any other signs of over pressure? Have you changed powder or primer lots? Need more info if you want to get to the bottom of this.

Blowing out at the firing pin dent - looks like you drilled a hole in the primer.

I had 300 rounds total through a new barrel before the problem started. After a thorough cleaning, including the throat, I still pierce every 15 rounds or so. This was a new batch of virgin Lapua brass, otherwise primers and powder are the same lot.

I looked back at some of my fired brass from round count 200 and I see some cratering. I must have been right on the edge with perhaps a different lot of brass setting it off?

I'm backing down to the lower accuracy node at 42 gr and will shoot some tomorrow. I'll report back.
 
K. You posted while I was typing. As they are blowing out the center there should be more signs of pressure or its either the primer, or the firing pin. Check the firing pin for any erosion. If its smooth then try a different lot of primers.

Firing pin is nice and smooth. I will also try a different lot of primers. Since I'm loading ammo for Scott's training class on the 26 & 27 I'm going to back down as I don't want to get distracted with pierced primers.
 
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Known,

If the same firing pin didn't pierce primers before you got the new barrel installed, I would suspect it is something other than the firing pin. I was going to say that the firing pin piercing primers would be a combination of depth of penetration into the primer, and the shape of the nose of the firing pin. Obviously, a pointed firing pin would be more likely to pierce primers than a nicely rounded one.

However, as the problem didn't start until you got a new barrel installed, I would look more toward the barrel's throat and how that relates to your loads and the pressure curve for your load. I would agree with the suggestions to try a different batch of primers, like the CCI BR2, or something else.

I'm using 43.8 grains of H4350 with a Sierra 140, Winchester 7mm-08 brass necked down to 6.5mm, CCI-BR2 primers in my 260. My 27 inch Obermeyer 5R barrel produces 2880 FPS with no pressure signs, and the brass is lasting a very long time. I think Lapua brass is thicker, but you certainly don't seem to be "pushing the envelope" pressure wise. I presume you have chrono'ed your loads and can tell where you are pressure wise with the velocity.

Keep in mind that many gas guns have trouble with primers and the 6.5 bores like Creedmore, 6.5x47, and 260 rem. I don't know if those tendencies extend to bolt guns as well, but there sure seems to be something odd going on with the 6.5 bores and primers in general. I have read lots of various threads about primer problems with the 6.5 bores. I'm thankful that I have been lucky enough to dodge that problem though. You would be welcome to shoot my rifle, and try the some of the same ammo over a chrono in your rifle at too. that might give you some more info...

Are you jumping the bullets to the rifling, or jam seating the bullets?
 
K. With some cratering in conjunction with the blown primer I would think you were on the edge, & need to back it off to a lower node. The only other thing it could be is perhaps the seating depth has changed. Are you measuring every rnd with a micrometer to the ogive? Could they be getting jamed into the lands? Is it a compressed load?
 
In response to Bigwheels and Known:

- I am .030 off the lands
- Load is not compressed at all...plenty of room left in the case
- I have a Redding micrometer seating die. I don't check every round but I do check periodically.

Ed
 
Ok. I think the fact that there was some pressure sign leading up to this & the load isn't compressed or riding the lands a different primer lot won't fix it. Sounds like you have to drop to the lower node. The only other thing would be a problem with the new barrel but sounds far fetched to me. Would be a good idea to check anyway though. Just in case.
 
Ok. I think the fact that there was some pressure sign leading up to this & the load isn't compressed or riding the lands a different primer lot won't fix it. Sounds like you have to drop to the lower node. The only other thing would be a problem with the new barrel but sounds far fetched to me. Would be a good idea to check anyway though. Just in case.

Considering the barrel is a Bartlein and chambered by Dave Tooley for AI North America I would think everything is in spec - so I would agree that a problem with the barrel is far fetched. What would you look for/measure to determine if there is a problem with the barrel?
 
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No-one is perfect. It could be something like a crack just past the throat. Especially if the barrel is melinited or cryoed. I would look @ the bore just to rule it out.
 
No-one is perfect. It could be something like a crack just past the throat. Especially if the barrel is melinited or cryoed. I would look @ the bore just to rule it out.

I'll need to find somebody with a bore scope then. Anybody out there with one? I'm happy to drive over.
 
It could just be that the chamber is tighter than your last barrel and you're having higher pressures. And don't think just because the barrel was done my a professional that things can't go wrong. Prime example... I had a barrel by a very well known and exceptional gunsmith where they didn't realize they had received a bad reamer and as a result my chamber was WAY too tight and I couldn't eject live rounds. Sometimes shit just happens. But, taking a bore light to it won't tell you anything. I would redo your load development and see what happens.
 
Was the first t-post we put up still there Reed?

Yes, still jammed between those rocks...

KevinD and van462 it was a pleasure to meet up with you guys, hopefully next time under slightly better conditions but fun still the least! Mike I'm now looking for better cold weather gloves, Kevin I think I'll pass on those $12 ones :)
 
I measured the firing pin diameter and firing pin hole and it's .003 larger than a Remington 700. Could that account for the pierced primers?

Thanks,

Ed

Yes the larger firing pin aperture may have something to do with it as may your loads. _Broke_ is pretty accurate on the need to re-do load dev and find a new load. After string of shots if it be copper/fouling/heat leading to higher pressure etc etc popping primers can happen. You are running a .260 correct?
 
I had the same thing Broke referred to with a NEW rifle. I had it checked by a gunsmith, and live rounds (when we could extract them from the chamber) would clearly have the lands engraved into the ogive.

Although you periodically check your length to ogive, you also only have periodic pierced primers. I would inspect the entire lot of ammo, and see if you are getting occasional oddities in seating depth. This would certainly change your pressures. I had a lot of ammo do precisely that, and some times my ogive would vary by 50 thousandths..certainly enough to cause presure spikes.

If you do find oddities in seating depth, it can be from:
1. using brass that has various firings on it, hence varying neck tension
2. dirt inside the bullet seating cup, or die
3. dirt inside the groove of your shell holder (it holds off center some times, and straight other times)
4. using bullets that aren't consistent
5. varying the way you seat your bullets. You have to seat each bullet in a lot exactly the same way. I used to rotate the cartridge while seating the bullet, then I found that this causes both excessive runout, and varying seating depth.
6. using anything other than one consistent stroke on the press handle.

But my first guess is that there is an interrelationship between the new barrel's throat, seating depth, and powder charge. Velocity should tell you where you are relative to the max recommended charge, but even at that, each rifle is it's own rule. The max in my rifle may be 20% more or less than in your rifle. Let me know if you need to use a chrono.
 
Yes the larger firing pin aperture may have something to do with it as may your loads. _Broke_ is pretty accurate on the need to re-do load dev and find a new load. After string of shots if it be copper/fouling/heat leading to higher pressure etc etc popping primers can happen. You are running a .260 correct?

Yes - I'm running a .260. I've made up some loads at the lower accuracy node (42gr H4350) and will be testing today.
 
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I had the same thing Broke referred to with a NEW rifle. I had it checked by a gunsmith, and live rounds (when we could extract them from the chamber) would clearly have the lands engraved into the ogive.

Although you periodically check your length to ogive, you also only have periodic pierced primers. I would inspect the entire lot of ammo, and see if you are getting occasional oddities in seating depth. This would certainly change your pressures. I had a lot of ammo do precisely that, and some times my ogive would vary by 50 thousandths..certainly enough to cause presure spikes.

If you do find oddities in seating depth, it can be from:
1. using brass that has various firings on it, hence varying neck tension
2. dirt inside the bullet seating cup, or die
3. dirt inside the groove of your shell holder (it holds off center some times, and straight other times)
4. using bullets that aren't consistent
5. varying the way you seat your bullets. You have to seat each bullet in a lot exactly the same way. I used to rotate the cartridge while seating the bullet, then I found that this causes both excessive runout, and varying seating depth.
6. using anything other than one consistent stroke on the press handle.

But my first guess is that there is an interrelationship between the new barrel's throat, seating depth, and powder charge. Velocity should tell you where you are relative to the max recommended charge, but even at that, each rifle is it's own rule. The max in my rifle may be 20% more or less than in your rifle. Let me know if you need to use a chrono.

Hi Anton,

I have a CED M2 chrono but thanks for the offer. My loads with 43.2gr H4350 averaged 2805fps with 4 fps SD. I shot out at the 600 yard range at Cascade the other day and when I true up my ballistics I get 2850fps.

I'm using virgin Lapua brass of the same lot and I always keep them together based on the number of firings. I'm using a .292 bushing but also use the carbide expander ball to get rid of any neck dings. I full length resize and push the shoulder back about .002. As an added quality step, I measure concentricity with my Sinclair tool. With virgin brass the worst rounds read .005 TIR. With fired brass most of them have .001 TIR. Since each tool gives different measurements, as a point of comparison, Federal Gold Medal match will read .015 TIR. I was surprised how crooked that stuff was. I measured some M118 LR and it was crooked as a banana. Made me feel good about my reloads.

The ONLY thing that has changed with my reloading technique since I had my .308 barrel is my priming tool. My Lee Autoprime bit the dust and I got the RCBS bench mounted tool. I have always seating my primers firmly - I feel the anvil hit bottom and give it an extra push for pre-load.
 
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I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he worked a new load with the new brl. So the chamber size should have been accounted for to start, & the problem arose after 200 some rnds.
 
It sure seems like he is doing everything right, loads don't seem that hot, and quality control is good.

It is always possible that your rifle just doesn't like that bullet/powder combination, and you will have to try a lower powder charge. If your velocity drops by 100 FPS, see if the same thing happens. If the same thing happens with the lower velocity, then I would seriously look at that lot of primers. Otherwise, I would begin to think that your rifle just doesn't like that load combination.

Even with the velocity at 2750, that bullet still won't go transonic for a very long distance...
 
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he worked a new load with the new brl. So the chamber size should have been accounted for to start, & the problem arose after 200 some rnds.

That is correct - I started load development with the new barrel. This is the first time I've shot a .260 in my life. Have always been a .308 / .223 / .30-06 guy.
 
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Even with the velocity at 2750, that bullet still won't go transonic for a very long distance...

Exactly - and that's why I need to stand back and see the big picture. At least for the matches at UNC, I'll hardly see a difference. Brass and barrel life should also increase.

For now I just need a bomb proof load that will make the steel go "bang". I need to focus on my shooting skills rather than trying to get another 75fps out of my load.

I also want a load with a margin of error so I can use my Harrel's powder measure to whip up some quick loads for offhand and positional practice. I ALWAYS use my RCBS chargemaster but that is much slower.
 
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Folks,

I fired 40 rounds of the 42gr load without a pierced primer. I shot the rounds with two lots of primers. The old lot had one cratered primer. The new lot looked just fine. I believe I'm good for Scott's class.

I decided to take a look at some of my fired .308 brass and I could see a few cratered primers as well. These were BR2 primers. My .308 load was 43gr Varget and 175SMK - not a strong load by any means.
 
So the old primer lot showed cratering even on the 308/varget load? So the old primer lot has a softer cup. I have had more issues with primers in the last few yrs than in all the rest of my years reloading. I'm beginning to think that the quality control has been lacking since the Dems won. Our reloading companies have not been up to par since then. Bullets have had more blemishes than before as well.
 
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he worked a new load with the new brl. So the chamber size should have been accounted for to start, & the problem arose after 200 some rnds.

Just because he didn't see initial signs of over-pressure though does not necessarily mean there wasn't a problem to begin with.
 
So the old primer lot showed cratering even on the 308/varget load? So the old primer lot has a softer cup. I have had more issues with primers in the last few yrs than in all the rest of my years reloading. I'm beginning to think that the quality control has been lacking since the Dems won. Our reloading companies have not been up to par since then. Bullets have had more blemishes than before as well.

The primers from my .308 were BR2s and not the ones I used with my .260. I'm using two different lots of CCI200s in the .260. So I have seen cratering with one lot of BR2s and one lot of CCI200s with a mild load. When I look at the crater under a magnifying lens it looks die cut. You can see how that metal is just trying to make its way down the firing pin hole.

You are not the first person to mention that primer quality has really suffered. That combined with the oversize firing pin hole in the AI rifles puts me in a bit of a jam.
 
Yeah. I have a load with the Hor 225's that I shot about a thousand times with no problem. Then suddenly started to blow out primers @ the radius. Switched to a different lot of primers & no more problems. Sent a batch back to Winchester, & they told me they were fine & wouldn't cover the cost of repair to my bolt face. I call BS on that. Now I've been forced to switch to the Berger 230's & this load is a tad hotter, & no problem with these primers even in summer temps. I've seen several threads about it in the reloading section lately. Sux!
 
Here's one thing I noticed: I can drop a bullet into a fired .308 case. With my .260 I have to push it in. Is this too tight?

I heard that some .260 reamer patterns came out before Lapua had their .260 brass with thicker necks. I sent a note to Dave Tooley who makes the barrels for AI to see what he says.
 
Does it push In VERRY easy or does it take a little force? If it takes much more than a tiny bit of force it is too tight. My 300WM brass won't just drop in but just a touch on the tip will push it in. Thats with turned Winchester necks. The factory Fed I used to break in the brl I would need my press to push them in. They also didn't shoot worth a damn either. I'll assume that you got them to shoot so I bet its OK. But if you're not turning the necks it could explain your pressure spikes.
 
Does it push In VERRY easy or does it take a little force? If it takes much more than a tiny bit of force it is too tight. My 300WM brass won't just drop in but just a touch on the tip will push it in. Thats with turned Winchester necks. The factory Fed I used to break in the brl I would need my press to push them in. They also didn't shoot worth a damn either. I'll assume that you got them to shoot so I bet its OK. But if you're not turning the necks it could explain your pressure spikes.

I am not turning the necks. Just a slight nudge and they go in. I don't believe I have a problem based on your description.
 
I recommend you start turning the necks. Some of mine were bad enough to make my run out above .020" before I started to turn the necks. It also regulates my neck tension, & helps with the uniform expansion of the neck allowing the bullet to engrave into the lands straighter, & more centered. I just do it after the initial sizing of virgin brass. Don't need to do it again. At least through 8-9 firings. The bullet engraving off center could be pushing the pressure up enough to blow the primers. Could also explain the randomness of the blown primer.
 
I am under the impression that this problem with AI's piercing primers in 6.5's has previously been documented, Mile High even got in on the issue and the reason was the oversized firing pin.
 
Was familiar with the first link but not the second. Thanks for bringing to my attention. Need to decide whether I should got back to my .308 barrel.

If you need time to think about this I can shoot, I mean store it for you until you decide... :)
 
In AtOne's posting (the second link with photos of the primers) I noticed that the posting party had both R-P and FC brass in the same lot...that might explain alot..

Back to Known's issue. It might be worth trying to turn the outside of a few necks to make the bullet release a little easier and see if that makes a difference. Having any resistance to the bullet's release (other than the initial expansion of the neck) can raise pressures. Brass is supposed to have some spring back after expansion, and the initial ignition of the powder is sort of like forging the brass against the walls of the chamber. If the ignition can't push the brass completely away from the bullet, you get the pressure spike. The same thing happens when brass is too long, and the end of the case gets jammed into the throat and pinches, sort of like a crimp against the bullet.

But, all this stuff is a great deal of work if a solution is simply changing primers, or lowering the powder charge by a grain. Even at 2750 fps, your 139 Scenar probably won't go transonic until somewhere around 1500 yards. I haven't shot that far in a very long time.

Another thought is that if your rifle has blown the primers out, that brass has to either liquify, or the little teeny circle of brass that looks like it was punched out has to go somewhere. I would disassemble my rifle, and bolt to make sure I don't have little circles of brass either down in the trigger group, or inside the bolt. Those circles could easily cause a malfunction in the rifle.
 
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Another thought is that if your rifle has blown the primers out, that brass has to either liquify, or the little teeny circle of brass that looks like it was punched out has to go somewhere. I would disassemble my rifle, and bolt to make sure I don't have little circles of brass either down in the trigger group, or inside the bolt. Those circles could easily cause a malfunction in the rifle.

Yes indeed - they were sitting inside my bolt. Looked just like flakes of powder. I blew my bolt body out with compressed air too.
 
Glad you caught it before things seized up! Now, you have to figure out if it was a lucky guess, or experience that told me to suggest looking for that..
 
Glad you caught it before things seized up! Now, you have to figure out if it was a lucky guess, or experience that told me to suggest looking for that..

I'm sure you never experienced such a thing - you are too careful and exacting. Never one to push the limits. ;-)
 
Folks,

As we head into Christmas and wrap up another year, I focus on the good things that happened in 2013. From a personal standpoint, I discovered this forum, the UNC matches, and made some good friends in the process. For that I am very grateful. I look forward to an even better 2014!

All the best,

Ed
 
Folks,

As we head into Christmas and wrap up another year, I focus on the good things that happened in 2013. From a personal standpoint, I discovered this forum, the UNC matches, and made some good friends in the process. For that I am very grateful. I look forward to an even better 2014!

All the best,

Ed

Same to you, Ed!

I can't say that 2013 was a 'great' year for me, I've had better, but I do have a lot to be thankful for and look forward to 2014. Have a great holiday everybody!

Ry
 
I am looking for Hodgdon 4831SC (only). I have unopened 8 lb canisters of the following powders to trade for an equal quantity, unopened 4831SC:



  • Vitavuori N135
  • IMR 4350
  • Accurate 2520


Anyone in the Seattle area interested?