Q for you Electricians

Ratbert

Ratbert

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 18, 2007
2,341
1
47
Concord, NC
#1
Surely there are a few electricians on the site...

I've got an underground power cable running from my house to my reloading shed that got nicked by a stray shovel during some landscaping. It was initially thought that the inner insulation was ok and was just wrapped in some electrical tape but now whenever the ground gets really wet it starts tripping the breaker.

Is there a proper way to repair this without having to pull up the wire and run a new one? Unfortunately the damage is kind of in the middle of the yard, so installing a junction box really isn't an option.
 
#4
Re: Q for you Electricians

Underground runs like what you describe shouldn't be spliced or repaired in any way.

Even though I have the ability, I wouldn't do any repairs for the sake of safety. If the breaker is already tripping during wet conditions, then there's a safety issue. I would take the opportunity to increase the wire gauge for purposes of future expansion.
 
#5
Re: Q for you Electricians



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just move the contents of the reloading shed to the kitchen.....priceless !</div></div>

Just got finished installing vapor barrier, insulation, dry wall, heat, AC, and network to the barn. It's nicer than my kitchen now.
 
#6
Re: Q for you Electricians

RB,

I'm a Carpentry contractor, not an Electrode. Are the wires in a pipe? Or is it an outdoor grade Romex buried in the ground?

How big a service? 3 phase? Or just a single 220 volt service from which you pull off what you need?

Pipe can be repaired and a new home run pulled fairly easily, though at some expense. If it's just romex, you can excavate the point of damage, cut the line (power off of course) and put in a water tight J-Box and bury it and you're back to where you were before the damage. J-Boxes should really be accessible though, and services should be piped at some mandated depth below grade (18" here).

Good luck. I'm sure sparkies will pipe up and be of real help!

ETA-After seeing what all you have done out there, it sounds like a large service, thus it should be a heavy guage copper servise to run all that. If it's cut it needs to be pulled and re-run and the pipe needs to be repaired to keep the water out. Is it engineered or a handyman project?
 
#7
Re: Q for you Electricians

The previous owner just buried outdoor Romex. (12/2) ETA: This is what got damaged.

When I went to finish out the shed into a reloading room I buried conduit and ran a second 12/2 circuit to the shed so that I'd have clean power to run the electronic scales off of separate from the existing circuit hooked up to the heater/AC and outdoor lights. I suppose I could try fishing a 2nd pull through that but it's about 90' so it would not be fun (plus, I'd have to demo and redo some drywall in the shed.) I really don't know how I could waterproof a JB around the wire entry/exit in order to bury it.

 
#8
Re: Q for you Electricians

There are water tight boxs made for really wet applications and Potting compound is used to keep it that way. Potting compound, a two part epoxy, is used on underwater connections such as pool lights for just such exigencies.
 
#10
Re: Q for you Electricians

With a run of 12/2, you're really limited to 15 amps per wire run. If it were my project, I'd pull both runs of 12/2 and run 8/3 in conduit out to a separate breaker box in the shed. You can safely pull 50 amps on 8 gauge, and you'll have plenty of power capability for future expansion.

For clean power for reloading scales and such, I'd consider a computer style UPS.
 
#11
Re: Q for you Electricians

Ratbert, there are J boxes that are rated for outdoor use. If I were you, I would rerun the wire and do it proper including running pipe or wire at the depth the code requires. Not sure if you care or not, but now that it is your issue, and you are running it, might just be worthwhile to pull a permit to make sure you are up to code.
 
#12
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a run of 12/2, you're really limited to 15 amps per wire run. If it were my project, I'd pull both runs of 12/2 and run 8/3 in conduit out to a separate breaker box in the shed. You can safely pull 50 amps on 8 gauge, and you'll have plenty of power capability for future expansion.

For clean power for reloading scales and such, I'd consider a computer style UPS. </div></div>

Interesting idea. I'll have to go look at what 8/3 would cost me, but assuming I can swallow it would there be any problem with me running two 20 amp breakers at the house and sinking both into the single 8gauge neutral, so that I didn't have to install a sub-panel in the shed necessarily?
 
#13
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For clean power for reloading scales and such, I'd consider a computer style UPS. </div></div>

Yeah, that was my plan but it still needed more juice as even a 750VA UPS would be too much load on the same circuit as a heater or AC.
 
#14
Re: Q for you Electricians

First is there a disconnect for the feed at the house?
2nd what size ,and type of line?
Yes you can splice. I've done several underground splices.
you can use crimps,need a large crimper,I have used both hydraulic,and manual.Shrink wrap. or even the below method with repair split lugs.

This maybe all you need-
Buy some linerless electrical tape,preferable GE made.As well as good GE electrical tape.
Wrap the linerless around the outer sheathing.Stretch it tight,hope it's warm.
Cover with the regular electrical tape.
Maybe trye some liquid electrical tape too.
 
#15
Re: Q for you Electricians

There is the main breaker in the box, that feeds the "outdoor" circuit, then outside there is an outdoor outlet on the deck with a outdoor on/off switch controlling the line as it starts feeding to the shed (all installed by the previous owner) immediately after the line comes into the shed there is a GFCI on/off switch acting as a master kill switch for the shed. This is what has allowed me to troubleshoot enough to know it's that nick that's causing the problem. Turn off the power in the shed using the switch there and the problem with the breaker randomly tripping persists. Turn off the power at the deck and the problem goes away.
 
#16
Re: Q for you Electricians

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1YPX2?Pid=search

8/3 is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Between $3.50 and $4.25 a foot, depending on the legth.

I don't see why you couldn't run two separate breakers at the house and have two circuits at the shed, but 8/3 is WAY overkill for something like that. Look at 12/4 for separate circuits. Wire costs drop to about $1.30 per foot.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1UGU1?Pid=search


Of course, you'd still be on the hook for conduit, that's about $3 for a 10 foot stick.


Side note -- AC/Heater should be on its' own circuit, as the amp draw is quite high on startup.
 
#17
Re: Q for you Electricians

My USMC MOS was Engineer Electrician. I would do precisely as Hink advises.

The 8/3 permits two circuits, higher amperage, and allows the capability of 2-phase 220V power (as in Heat/AC), as well as separate 110 circuits. I would run the power from a 2 phase breaker on the house main, the split it on another panel inside the shed. You can never have too much light when reloading. UF Romex is adequate (barely), and may or may not conform with current code. Underground splices are also conceivable, but the better solution is to bring it all up to Hick's specs.

When figuring costs, the price differences of employing higher quality materials is of considerably less consequence than labor costs and safety/reliability considerations. Do it right, once, and sleep better at night. When I went to Engineer Electricians' School in 1966, what was thought of then as overkill is thought of today as moderately adequate. Subsequently working in the computer field for 30 years, the same tendency has prevailed. Things change, and they seldom lead to smaller requirements. It's alway cheaper to upgrade today than it will be tomorrow.

Greg
 
#18
Re: Q for you Electricians

Didn't know there was such a thing as 12/4... is that available at my local Home Depot?

When I ran the second circuit we ran it in conduit, along with the Cat5e. IIRC we used 3/4". I've got a corner access box where it exits the house and enters the ground, from there it's a pretty straight run (except for the 90* as it enters/exits the ground.) Any reason I shouldn't be able to attach a 12/4 to the end of the existing 12/2 then use the 12/2 to pull the 12/4 through to the shed? I'll have to knock out the drywall to fix the wiring in the shed but that shouldn't be TOO bad.
 
#20
Re: Q for you Electricians

Think of a water hose. You turn a spray nozzle off, there is still pressure,in the line. You need to turn the water off at the source,to repair the line in between.
So turning the the circuit off at the shed,you'll still get shocked.You need to turn it off at the upstream point,the feed.
Your deck.

A little dry wall repair is easy. We electricians have a very nice drywall tool. Called a claw hammer.
wink.gif


IMHO get rid of the 12-2,,yes get the 8-3 and a B square panel

 
#21
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAMCIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think of a water hose. You turn a spray nozzle off, there is still pressure,in the line. You need to turn the water off at the source,to repair the line in between.
So turning the the circuit off at the shed,you'll still get shocked.You need to turn it off at the upstream point,the feed.
Your deck.
</div></div>

yeah, I understand that, I was just detailing how I know that it wasn't a problem with the wiring inside the shed or upstream from where the line enters the ground.

For $400+ (not including a subpanel and labor) the 8/3 sounds like overkill for a 160sqft shed that I can just BARELY justify needing two circuits to. It sounds like the practical thing would be to replace the line in the conduit with 12-2-2 (assuming I can find some) and then just bury the damaged romex and forget about it.
 
#22
Re: Q for you Electricians

Better to just get 10-3 then. Up the amperage and get 2 circuits.
red black white[n]green[ground]
10-4 would add a spare blue,unconnected.

3/4 pvc ?
 
#24
Re: Q for you Electricians

Ratbert, it isn't just the basic gauge for the current draw, you also have to account for the length of the run. The longer the run, the heavier gauge is required.

Getting a permit may require a plan by a licensed electrical contractor and be up to Code, which could add to your cost considerably.

If you are not going to get it permitted and up to Code, check to make sure your insurance company still covers you. It would suck for you to pay premiums for twenty years, have a fire, and get denied your claim because they found non-permitted electrical work.
 
#26
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ratbert, it isn't just the basic gauge for the current draw, you also have to account for the length of the run. The longer the run, the heavier gauge is required.

</div></div>

Which is why I ask, isn't 12ga plenty to run 20 amp service 100'?

The previous (now damaged) service was installed by an electrician for that distance and amperage, I was just trying to figure out why everyone wanted to up it to 10ga+
 
#27
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAMCIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes but real rating is 16.5 amps
Why not upgrade to 10-3?
</div></div>

Are you suggesting for running 220 2-phase to a sub-panel or for two 110 circuits? Wouldn't I need a a separate ground wire from the neutral?
 
#31
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ratbert, it isn't just the basic gauge for the current draw, you also have to account for the length of the run. The longer the run, the heavier gauge is required.

</div></div>

Which is why I ask, isn't 12ga plenty to run 20 amp service 100'?

The previous (now damaged) service was installed by an electrician for that distance and amperage, I was just trying to figure out why everyone wanted to up it to 10ga+
</div></div>

No, with a max of 5% allowable drop and 100' run one way you need 10 gauge for 120V single phase 20A. Check here: http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCalc.htm
 
#33
Re: Q for you Electricians

Heres one for yall. I bought a home with a well about 100 meters from the house. I kept noticing a wet spot about 1/2 way along where the pipe should be so I started digging. About a foot down I hit something and happened to notice something yellow....You guessed it, these morons buried the water line and and the 220 electric line, not in a pipe, in the same ditch. When I realized what I had hit and what would have happened to me, standing in wet earth, had i cut that 220 with the shovel, I literally got ill, and it still makes my gut quiver 2 years later....Fried Goldie....I mean I understand stupid but how could even a moron bury the water line and 220 in the same ditch??????
 
#34
Re: Q for you Electricians

Not uncommon,hardly any body really cares enough to put buried electrical marking tape in .

My bosses look at me when I ask for marking tape. They don't like to spend the $10
frown.gif
 
#36
Re: Q for you Electricians

What about if I ran 6 independent 10ga wires through the conduit instead of trying to use ROMEX? Would/should it pull considerably easier/cheaper then? Would it be a problem in the crawl space (there is a 15' gap in the crawl space between where the conduit from the box (shared with other bottom-floor circuits) enters the crawl space and where the conduit leading to the barn enters.
 
#37
Re: Q for you Electricians

Even better,make sure you mark each boat. {group}
24" deepth,completly in conduit? PVC schedule 40 or better? grey electrical rated pvc?not white plumbers pvc?
Boat is a complete circuit,black/red/blue wht grn

 
#38
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little dry wall repair is easy. We electricians have a very nice drywall tool. Called a claw hammer. </div></div>

<span style="font-size: 26pt">AH HAH</span> So it wasn't actually left like that by the drywall stoners...
 
#41
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always thought you guys just used your Kleins as hammers
laugh.gif
. </div></div>

Doesn't make a big enough hole
laugh.gif
 
#42
Re: Q for you Electricians

If you are just wanting to repair to damage for now, 1 turn off the breaker.
2 carefully excavate around the romex (UHF I assume)
3 get some Scotchkote on the damaged section, this stuff looks like rubber cement.
4 get a repair heat shrink from a elec. supply house, these can also be called a zipper shrink
5 apply shrink and heat untill done
6 drink a beer and remember to call for locates from your applicable area, (these are free).


I'll see if I can get link for the shrink

3M repair shrink
 
#43
Re: Q for you Electricians

If you are supplying a seperate structure with lighting and convienince receptacles/ general purpose usage you must make sure that you are properly bonded (grounded). That also requires the installation of another grounding electrode at the secondary structure. Sounds like you need some qualified professional help to ensure you are adequately bonded.

Quick fix: Split outer jacket back to identify damaged wire(s).
Wrap wire with 3M 33+ tape. Wrap over 33 with rubber electrical tape and then coat with scotchcote to waterproof. Bury and then wait for it to go bad at some point in time.
 
#45
Re: Q for you Electricians

I agree with wirehand for the easiest fix. You don't need to ground the other structure seeing how you brought a ground over from the house pannel. If you replace the wires you can share the neutral for the two circuits and go with a 3c#10.
Just my 2c.
 
#46
Re: Q for you Electricians

first of all get rid of that gfi breaker at the shed, not needed and they are just a pain in the ass especially if you have a fridge or freezer out there you may have a serious problem. im guessing your shed is a good distance away from the house, if thats the case the bigger wire you run the better it will be on your elec bill because of the voltage drop and strain of a long run. plus we all know that a temporary fix is going to be a premanent fix, for most lol. not sure what all you have in your shed but it sounds to me that a 10/3 would be plenty.dont buy uf its crazy expensive, run 1/2 conduit to the shed, buy 500ft of #10 thhn you can get a small (6space)value pack sub panel from home depot for around 40 bucks, this should come with 4-6 20amp breakers. pick up an 8' ground rod, run 3 #10's from the house to your new subpanel on a two pole 30amp breaker, use a piece of the 10 to ground the subpanel at the shed with the ground rod and your good to go, all said and done your right around 150$ for a set up that will provide plenty of juice in your shed, in my opinion anything 30amps and down will run just fine in your shed. might be way overboard for what you have in mind but in my experience you will love to have the extra spaces of the panel giving you more options and the #10 will allow the electricity to "flow smoother" which will help the elec. bill in the long run, just an option. might not be the "best" way but will work and be safe. the ground rod will allow you to run 3 #10s rather than 4, 2 110's and the N. good luck
 
#47
Re: Q for you Electricians

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first of all get rid of that gfi breaker at the shed, not needed and they are just a pain in the ass especially if you have a fridge or freezer out there you may have a serious problem. im guessing your shed is a good distance away from the house, if thats the case the bigger wire you run the better it will be on your elec bill because of the voltage drop and strain of a long run. plus we all know that a temporary fix is going to be a premanent fix, for most lol. not sure what all you have in your shed but it sounds to me that a 10/3 would be plenty.dont buy uf its crazy expensive, run 1/2 conduit to the shed, buy 500ft of #10 thhn you can get a small (6space)value pack sub panel from home depot for around 40 bucks, this should come with 4-6 20amp breakers. pick up an 8' ground rod, run 3 #10's from the house to your new subpanel on a two pole 30amp breaker, use a piece of the 10 to ground the subpanel at the shed with the ground rod and your good to go, all said and done your right around 150$ for a set up that will provide plenty of juice in your shed, in my opinion anything 30amps and down will run just fine in your shed. might be way overboard for what you have in mind but in my experience you will love to have the extra spaces of the panel giving you more options and the #10 will allow the electricity to "flow smoother" which will help the elec. bill in the long run, just an option. might not be the "best" way but will work and be safe. the ground rod will allow you to run 3 #10s rather than 4, 2 110's and the N. good luck
</div></div>

Yep, that really sounds like what I should have done in the first place. Ironically, I didn't because I was trying to resist my typical inclination to over-engineer things and just keep it simple. Oh well, only money I guess.

Thanks for all the help, guys.
 
#48
Re: Q for you Electricians

In response to your statement, you DO need an additional grounding electrode. The ground from the other structure is not adaquate and the GFCI is not a switch rated device with overcurrent protection. A GFCI is for the protection of equipment and NOT personel.

Take a peek at the NEC...
 
#49
Re: Q for you Electricians

As a Journeyman Electrician I would have hoped that you would know that a GFCI receptacle is to prevent shock to individuals by monitoring the amount of current on the line and the load so that there is no more than ~5mA difference. Circuit breakers and fuses are to protect equipment.
 
#50
Re: Q for you Electricians

what i meant is there is no reason for the gfi setup that he has, if he was going to do what i mentioned, he would completely be redoing the whole run if he went this way. i would def. make my outlets gfi protected but not the lights or any equipment especially a fridge, ive seen too many times the gfi trip and the owner not know and there deer head along with a bunch of meat went bad in a deep freezer. sounds like the on/off switch on the porch was so the old home owner could kill the lights without walking out to the shed.my way was simply a cheap easy way, like i said, not the "best".wish i lived closer i would come do it for 200$ lol. also im sure a job like this is NOT going to be inspected so theres no need for any code books, theres the legal way to do electrical work then theres the fast right way
wink.gif
 
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