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RECCE Upper Advice

ccasanova

ccasanova

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 10, 2010
396
198
40
Southeast LA
I have 2 SBRs. 11.5” Sionics 5.56 full time suppressed Aimpoint H1 - 11.5” AA 6.5 Grendel full time suppressed Razor HDLH 1.5-8. So I have my lightweight, easy handling bases covered.

My main precision setup is a bolt action Tikka Tactical .223. It shoots 55 Vmax sub-moa, 77 SMK 1/2-moa.

I gave my lw 14.5” pinned BCM upper (my favorite upper) to my dad. It was my favorite, lightweight, pretty accurate, handy, light recoiling setup. I kept the lower which has a JP fcg (all 3 lowers do) carbine RE and B5 SOPMOD. I have an A5 RE available.

So, I’m looking to fill a void in my arsenal. Thinking 16” medium weight, accurate barrel, decent scope. Will run full time suppressed. My home range is to 325yds, access to 5-600 a few miles away. I want to be able to make hits there, but also deer/hog hunt.

Is there any mystery or secret to building an accurate upper ? given quality components and ammo are used? Is it relatively simple with appropriate tools? I have everything needed (upper vise block, torque wrenches, etc) but don’t want to screw with it if there are “trade secrets” and other accuracy gaining steps which I don’t know about or can’t do myself. Looks like I can get a CLE or WOA upper for ~$1k.

@bigjake83 and @padom have setups similar to what I’m thinking.

If I missed and needed info, let me know. Thanks for the advice.
 
Quality barrel is the biggest factor. Everything else is minimal increases in accuracy when squeezing every last bit out.

If you want forged, get a BCM MOD4 upper receiver, Kreiger barrel from Keystone Accuracy and a Rubber City complete bcg, SA adjustable gas block, Geissele charging handle and handguard or whatever flavor you prefer.
 
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The recce rifle has about the most open specs, really the only specific part called for by the navy was the Lilja barrel. It's a damn fine barrel, I have one and another guy I know on here has one and they're both sub MOA weapons with factory ammo. Profile isn't super heavy like most either. He called it the "perfect rifle" and I'd have a hard time disagreeing with him.

IMO/E, the best way to build out an upper goes like this: get the best barrel you can --Lilja for button, Krieger or Satern for cut rifle. Get the best, buy once, cry once, 99% of your accuracy will come from this one part. Get a quality forged upper or a VLTOR MUR1 (they're good, solid uppers). JP Ent. makes the best BCG's IMO and I'm not the only one that feels this way, if you ask Krieger to headspace the barrel then it'll be headspaced to a JP bolt. The FMOS carrier accounts for a lot of the reliability in this system BTW, they're so slick they no-shit work dry. I'm not a fan of adj. gas blocks at all, I only use pinned ones. Geissele makes a good DIY one with a set screw and a pin so you can set it with the set screw, then drill it out for the pin. OR just use a plain cut down A2 sight assy. and call it good. Just pin it on whatever you do.

IMG_0730.JPG


Another option, and considering the Krieger barrel, is to just get a KAC upper and call it a day. A guy has one on the PX right now for $1200, an LPR no less, reason for the price is he changed the handguard to a URX4 and changed the factory gas block. Still a fine upper and still has the Krieger bbl, KAC BCG, etc.
 
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For less than $700 you can have a White Oak Armament SPR complete upper with charging handle and BCG. It will shoot on par with just about anything else you can put together.
 
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I’ve had great success w Hodge, Noveske (both N4 and stainless, stainless being a tad more accurate), BCM factory uppers as well as several builds w Noveske, Krieger or DD barrels. Will probably be trying a SOLGW upper soon. All have been sub MOA w the right ammo and do well to 500 yards (haven’t shot these past that on paper).

I’ll agree w padom that the barrel is 95% of the accuracy component given you torque correctly etc. A good free float rail is nice but unless you’re mounting IR or such, free float is free float. A quality BCG is essential to run reliably but so far in my experience I haven’t noticed better accuracy w drop in v “headspaced” ones.
 
TXBO said:
For less than $700 you can have a White Oak Armament SPR complete upper with charging handle and BCG. It will shoot on par with just about anything else you can put together.
Click to expand...
Had no idea white oak did a complete upper. I’ll have to take a look. Thx
 
I took a brand new FN DMR II and had Grey Steel out of the PNW chop it down (18" to 16"). Rifle length gas system solidly in place (non adj gas block.) I added a JP silent capture buffer system and a BCM Ion Bond BCG. That's it. This thing can rock as a DMR or a RECCE rifle now. I shoot Black Hills 77g BTHP out of it for distance and 62g for everything else. I run a 1-6 on it and DPP off set at 45 with offset irons. It's a little on the heavy side but that's to be expected with the heavy DMR barrel, long rail and optics. I also run BCM uppers and I love em too.
 
BigBC said:
I took a brand new FN DMR II and had Grey Steel out of the PNW chop it down (18" to 16"). Rifle length gas system solidly in place (non adj gas block.) I added a JP silent capture buffer system and a BCM Ion Bond BCG. That's it. This thing can rock as a DMR or a RECCE rifle now. I shoot Black Hills 77g BTHP out of it for distance and 62g for everything else. I run a 1-6 on it and DPP off set at 45 with offset irons. It's a little on the heavy side but that's to be expected with the heavy DMR barrel, long rail and optics. I also run BCM uppers and I love em too.
Click to expand...
You run a LPVO, irons AND a Delta Point Pro? You’ve got contingencies covered bro ??
 
I can recommend both BCM and White Oak complete uppers. My 18" WOA SPR is a little more accurate than my BCM 16", but it is the BFH not the SS410 barrel. Fit an finish on both is excellent, but I prefer the BCM MCMR handguard over the ALG.

Scope wise you may want to look at two awesome deals from CamerlandNY right now on the Burris and Bushnell FFP 1-8x scopes:

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY
cameralandny.com cameralandny.com

Product Description

Product Description | Camera Land NY
cameralandny.com cameralandny.com

I have the Bushnell and for $680 it's an absolute steal!!
 
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ccasanova said:
Is there any mystery or secret to building an accurate upper ? given quality components and ammo are used? Is it relatively simple with appropriate tools? I have everything needed (upper vise block, torque wrenches, etc) but don’t want to screw with it if there are “trade secrets” and other accuracy gaining steps which I don’t know about or can’t do myself.
Click to expand...
- lap the front face of the upper receiver to provide a square, flat surface for the barrel extension flange to be clamped to.
- deburr and polish the sharp edges of the barrel extension feed ramps.
- if necessary use SS shim stock, .001", .0015", to take up any clearance between the barrel extension OD and receiver bore ID, for a very tight fit.
- keep the barrel extension feed ramps and the upper receiver feed ramps aligned when tightening the barrel nut (if there's any clearance between the barrel extension pin and upper receiver slot).
- check headspace.
- consider using a clamp-on gas block, instead of a set-screw version.
- carefully align gas block port over the barrel gas port by measuring distances from gas block shoulder of both gas port holes (GB, barrel). Using a sharpie, draw a straight line from the barrel gas port forward to assist with aligned install.
- don't overtorque the muzzle device.

just my 2 cents.
 
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In addition to the other excellent advise in this thread, I'll just add the Craddock Precision makes great uppers similar to CLE. Whichever upper you get, I'd highly recommend getting a Superlative Arms clamp on gas block with it.
 
Well, there's a lot of info about general AR's and some clone info, but if you wanna know what you need to build basically the same rifle the navy built, which is what one typically refers to as the "recce rifle" and is basically the same as the SDM-R we designed at SDM school 15 years ago, then PM me and we can go over what makes a legit recce rifle. Below is a little more info and the picture of the rifle above is built to these same standards. I wanna say it's put together on a matching Noveske receiver set.

In a nutshell, it all revolves around that 16" 1-8 .223 Wylde Lilja navy recce profile barrel. Sure you can use another, and I plan on building out another one day using a Krieger, but the specs called for the Lilja barrel. BCG's were typical quality milspec, probably LMT, but a JP Ent. FMOS is a much better option IMO/E. The gas blocks are non-adj. and pinned. Handguards were typically FF KAC but could be anything. Charging handle I wanna say is the PRI gasbuster, at least it's what I use. Stock typically SOPMOD but fixed A1 was/is popular... But again, stock is up to user. Trigger is supposed to be the Geissele SSF, so use the SSA-E instead. Optics could be anything but Mk4 MR/T is popular because they had 'em. Again, up to user, seen 'em with ACOG to 5-25x S&B, etc. Most have a Harris bipod and most are used in more or less an SDM type role.
 
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jomsviking said:
Set screw gas blocks can cause problems with barrel harmonics from putting uneven pressure on one side of the barrel.

or so ive been told.
Click to expand...
I've been told that too, but only by old timers trying to make AR benchrest guns. They never said they tested the theory or what kind of accuracy difference it made, just that you shouldn't question their supreme wisdom. I'm open to having the concept proven to me by real data and testing but for now I file that away with the rest of the Benchrest worlds old wives tales.
 
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TonyTheTiger said:
I've been told that too, but only by old timers trying to make AR benchrest guns. They never said they tested the theory or what kind of accuracy difference it made, just that you shouldn't question their supreme wisdom. I'm open to having the concept proven to me by real data and testing but for now I file that away with the rest of the Benchrest worlds old wives tales.
Click to expand...

yep pretty much my experience also.

lots of "theory" and no real data to prove it. Id love to be proven wrong but so far when questions they just get mad and trail off about being a vietnam seal ranger sniper.
 
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I always pin my gas blocks. And many years ago i have seen issues with a few clakp on ones.
 
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Docsherm said:
Why is everyone talking about clamp on gas blocks?
Click to expand...
my train of thought is that, why would you intentionally introduce a point-stress to your barrel? We're all interested in having the perfect barrel with no introduced stresses, perfect bore, no possible causes of deformation, so why put a set-screw clamp? My own opinion (and that's all it is) is that the clamp distributes the load more evenly than a set screw.

Obviously most set-ups are set-screw installation, "millions sold", they obviously work fine. But for my barrel, if it's the same cost, and I have a choice, I'll take the clamp-on. Pinned-gas blocks are okay also, that'd probably be my first choice, but the install is a little bit more involved. Also key would be that the hole isn't too undersized under the barrel, again, introducing stress, potential deformation, yeah, probably not measurable with current methods.

I guess in the end, as long as the barrel "system" is consistent shot-to-shot, so that the POA/POI doesn't vary, that's what really counts. So, I guess, even if you have a point stress, influencing bullet behavior out the muzzle, as long as it's consistent, same every shot, then fine.

No, I don't have a Vietnam SEAL ranger sniper kill-stare. But I think about these little things during assembly. over thinking? OCD?

... Holiday Inn Express...
 
rpoL98 said:
my train of thought is that, why would you intentionally introduce a point-stress to your barrel? We're all interested in having the perfect barrel with no introduced stresses, perfect bore, no possible causes of deformation, so why put a set-screw clamp? My own opinion (and that's all it is) is that the clamp distributes the load more evenly than a set screw.

Obviously most set-ups are set-screw installation, "millions sold", they obviously work fine. But for my barrel, if it's the same cost, and I have a choice, I'll take the clamp-on. Pinned-gas blocks are okay also, that'd probably be my first choice, but the install is a little bit more involved. Also key would be that the hole isn't too undersized under the barrel, again, introducing stress, potential deformation, yeah, probably not measurable with current methods.

I guess in the end, as long as the barrel "system" is consistent shot-to-shot, so that the POA/POI doesn't vary, that's what really counts. So, I guess, even if you have a point stress, influencing bullet behavior out the muzzle, as long as it's consistent, same every shot, then fine.

No, I don't have a Vietnam SEAL ranger sniper kill-stare. But I think about these little things during assembly. over thinking? OCD?

... Holiday Inn Express...
Click to expand...

I completely understand your train of thought on this. I personally, will always take a pinned GB over any other for the greater reliability. I look at is this way, it doesn't matter how accurate your barrel is if it doesn't fire when you need it to.
 
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Thank you all for the responses. I almost titled the thread “RECCE-ish Advice” as I’m interested in a similar package, albeit not a direct clone. I appreciate the education though. The idea is for a 16”, very accurate, still relatively lightweight and handy rifle. You guys have some nice rigs posted here.

Jake has offered his services and is working on a parts list. As things progress, I will update this thread.

Please continue to comment with advice and suggestions.

I’m thinking ahead about optics. What I have on hand is a Razor HDLH 2-10. Seems like a good mag range, but I'll be researching FFP mil offerings. Doug has the Bushnell LRTS 3-12x44 for $650. Bushnell DMR2s can be had for $950ish, PST2 $700. Gen2 Razor 1-6, 3-18?

What is the optimal size/mag range/features for this weapon system?I’d want enough mag for varmints/deer/hogs, steel at 5-600, but also the ability to engage multiple close targets (think walking up on a sounder of hogs).
 
ccasanova said:
Thank you all for the responses. I almost titled the thread “RECCE-ish Advice” as I’m interested in a similar package, albeit not a direct clone. I appreciate the education though. The idea is for a 16”, very accurate, still relatively lightweight and handy rifle. You guys have some nice rigs posted here.

Jake has offered his services and is working on a parts list. As things progress, I will update this thread.

Please continue to comment with advice and suggestions.

I’m thinking ahead about optics. What I have on hand is a Razor HDLH 2-10. Seems like a good mag range, but I'll be researching FFP mil offerings. Doug has the Bushnell LRTS 3-12x44 for $650. Bushnell DMR2s can be had for $950ish, PST2 $700. Gen2 Razor 1-6, 3-18?

What is the optimal size/mag range/features for this weapon system?I’d want enough mag for varmints/deer/hogs, steel at 5-600, but also the ability to engage multiple close targets (think walking up on a sounder of hogs).
Click to expand...

Doug also has the Steiner P4Xi 4-16x for $799. Might be a good fit.
 
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All the trimming and shimming becomes unnecessary of you simply start with a quality receiver and barrel. There's no way a mere mortal with simple hand tools is going to outperform a 4-Axis Haas CNC machine. With a quality upper, it takes a couple of minutes with the heat gun for the upper receiver to accept a (typically oversized) barrel extension as found on match grade barrels.



A little history I observed decades ago as an "adjunct target painter" where the SEALS trained:

The Recce was developed by DevGroup armorers in the late nineties. They were capable of MOA at 600 yards with heir match ammo. They started out with Compass Lake Krieger barrels, originally, but then went to Lilja years later, around 2000. Noveske and others have been utilized since.

The mid-length gas system hadn't even been created way back then, so all early Recces had carbine length gas (NOT optimum). Even after the mid-length gas system came into common use, they kept using the carbine length, because "that's what was in the supply system". It took a while to appreciate the many advantages of a longer gas system.

The old Lilja barrels were truly awesome. I custom ordered them for years. I'm now a fan of Craddock-produced Bartlein and Proof Research carbon fiber wrapped ("CFW") barrels for max precision. Noveske and V Seven are also making great stuff. I'm sure there are many others, possibly even better, but these are simply the ones with which I've had first hand experience.



Currently, I think the optimum precision tactical 5.56 would sport a 12.5" - 16" match grade barrel. Mid-length gas with 12.5" - 14.5", and intermediate length gas with the 16". Every effort should be made to keep the gun lightweight and have a unit power optic capability, since it has to be able to run in the stack, too.

My own shooters:

IMG_7206.jpg


That's a 12.5" Bartlein, above. Mount a big, fat NF ATACR and it will shoot 1/2" with good ammo. It's hard for me to do much better than MOA with the 1.5 MOA dot in the 8 power NF NX8. But, it's not a bench rest gun. Produces 14.5" chrome lined barrel velocities with the match chamber.

IMG_8200.jpg


This rifle has a 16" Proof Research CFW barrel that shoots lights out with this old NF 2.5-10x42 NXS. Note the slick RMR mounted at 3 o'clock on the Spuhr mount. The gun is plenty quiet with the TDS Bantam II can, and at 8.5 ounces, you don't really know it's there.
 
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ccasanova said:
Thank you all for the responses. I almost titled the thread “RECCE-ish Advice” as I’m interested in a similar package, albeit not a direct clone. I appreciate the education though. The idea is for a 16”, very accurate, still relatively lightweight and handy rifle. You guys have some nice rigs posted here.

Jake has offered his services and is working on a parts list. As things progress, I will update this thread.

Please continue to comment with advice and suggestions.

I’m thinking ahead about optics. What I have on hand is a Razor HDLH 2-10. Seems like a good mag range, but I'll be researching FFP mil offerings. Doug has the Bushnell LRTS 3-12x44 for $650. Bushnell DMR2s can be had for $950ish, PST2 $700. Gen2 Razor 1-6, 3-18?

What is the optimal size/mag range/features for this weapon system?I’d want enough mag for varmints/deer/hogs, steel at 5-600, but also the ability to engage multiple close targets (think walking up on a sounder of hogs).
Click to expand...

That Razor HDLH 2-10x is not a bad start. I used to shoot 3 gun with a Vortex Viper 2-7x. Surprisingly the 2x is not really a huge disadvantage. You obviously can't do two eyes open super fast hosing, but it's still a very effective scope.

I'm now a fan of the FFP 1-8x for this type of rifle, but I also do appreciate a touch more magnification when hunting for better target ID and shot placement. If you have the funds I'd scoop up both the Bushnell FFP 1-8.5x24 from Doug at CamerlandNY as well as the 3-12x44 LRTS or look for somebody selling the 4.5-18x44 LRHSi that GAP blew out for $750 last year. I have both the Bushnell 1-8.5x and a 4.5-18x in Larue CAN mounts and swap scopes out dependent on situation.

The DMR2 is an awesome scope and Doug has it at a great price, but it's a chunky scope coming in at 37oz compared to 24oz to 27oz for 1-8.5x/ 3-12x / 4.5-18x. Just something to consider.
 
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The King said:
Critically, I also use a bore scope extensively and can tell you that the set screws aren’t an issue or the copper fouling around the gas block would show it.
Click to expand...
a very good point, appreciate the insight, and the comments. (y)
 
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bunsen27 said:
I'm now a fan of the FFP 1-8x for this type of rifle, but I also do appreciate a touch more magnification when hunting for better target ID and shot placement. If you have the funds I'd scoop up both...I have both the Bushnell 1-8.5x and a 4.5-18x...and swap scopes out dependent on situation.
Click to expand...

Anybody else running a 2 scope system? I like to shoot tiny groups, and can shoot to 300+ from my patio, so weight of say a Razor Gen2 4.5-27 would not be an issue, would reduce recoil, etc...for that purpose...and could swap to a bolt gun for the same scenario.

Then could run a 1-6/1-8 as the primary.

Thoughts?
 
Ok, time for a bit of a review.

First, big thanks to @bigjake83 for reaching out to me with advice, sourcing parts and assembling this upper. I’ve always found the firearms community, and Sniper’sHide in particular, to be full of knowledgeable helpful folks, and Jake has been that and more!

The LaRue Stealth 2.0 rail/upper is very solid, while still slim in the hand, not too big or bulky. I really like it.

The Compass Lake barrel, CLE chamber, SDM contour, fluted and bead blasted, balances and handles well, lighter than I expected. The finish is excellent. Their customer service was top notch as well!

This upper is as handy as my BCM middy with RDS, and would do well with a LPVO. I’m running a Minox ZP5 3-15 to try to extend my range on smaller targets, and shooting paper at 100-300 yds to work on fundamentals. As was the plan, this setup can fill many roles.

I’m still learning to shoot a precision semi-auto, and these groups reflect that. But I know the potential is there.

8E66920F-9189-44FC-AFBA-2CC0AE879920.jpeg
 
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Shot Left to Right, 5 shot groups with 77, 68, 55 with Area419 brake.
Then shot Right to Left, 5 shot groups with 55, 68, 77 suppressed. The suppressed 77smk was best group, but with 1 1/2" shift. The 68otm was consistent with brake and suppressor. It doesn't like the Vmax as evidenced by the shotgun pattern. Black Hills 77smk comes in today...kicking myself for not getting a couple boxes of 68gr. I'm no accomplished marksman, but I'm confident in this rifle and with practice should be able to shoot respectably with it!
189903F2-961E-4E26-B8AB-B198E21AAC71.jpeg
 
Glad you like it ?
If you start to hand load let me know I've got a few different loads that work really well in that CLE Chamber.
 
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bigjake83 said:
Glad you like it ?
If you start to hand load let me know I've got a few different loads that work really well in that CLE Chamber.
Click to expand...

Are you using the CLE Match chamber or 223 Wylde? I was wondering if there were any reliability issues while using the CLE Match chamber?
 
I actually started the build using the Wylde Chamber, I built it to the same specs as my own but there was a issue with the Gas Port that was affecting the accuracy. After they found the problem at CLE Frank and I decided to change it to the CLE Chamber because it favors the 77gr Box ammo.

As far as reliability is concerned they both functioned flawlessly, Cas is running it surpressed so time will tell. I personally have 3 CLE Match chambered barrels and 2 wylde Chambers barrels and all have 100% reliability, the CLE Chambers tend to yield better accuracy.
 
I’m running a BCM stainless upper with a 16 inch barrel and mid gas system. While it did seem to require a lengthy break in period now the thing is a tack driver. Paired with a LPVO, mag pull UBR stock it is a great shooting rifle, highly recommend BCM also have a White Oak barrel in a SPR they are worth checking out also
 

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bigjake83 said:
I actually started the build using the Wylde Chamber, I built it to the same specs as my own but there was a issue with the Gas Port that was affecting the accuracy. After they found the problem at CLE Frank and I decided to change it to the CLE Chamber because it favors the 77gr Box ammo.

As far as reliability is concerned they both functioned flawlessly, Cas is running it surpressed so time will tell. I personally have 3 CLE Match chambered barrels and 2 wylde Chambers barrels and all have 100% reliability, the CLE Chambers tend to yield better accuracy.
Click to expand...

Thank you. People usually recommend CLE but never say what chamber they are using. After looking at the specs I was wondering if there might be some reliability issues because of the differences in the CLE and Wylde chambers and that they do in fact yield some better accuracy. I've got a barrel being sent to them from Bartien and was wondering which chamber to have them do.
 
Thought I’d update this thread and tip my hat again to @bigjake83 and Compass Lake. I experimented with magnification over the past few weeks and decided I could shoot as accurately with 8x as 15x. I swapped the Minox 3-15 with a Vortex Razor HDLH 1.5-8 and was hammering 4” and 6” steel out to 300 (max at the house). The new Razor 1-10 looks like an ideal match, but this will work for a while and is incredibly lightweight. Shot the 6 on the right, moved .1mil Left, then shot 9 more...low right was a called pull ??‍♂️ 8x 100yd. That’s about as well as I can shoot a semi-auto. Very happy with this build.


6BB89EE8-D1A1-44C1-A7CB-1092D218C66A.jpegDBD0781D-6477-4617-8A53-AE03C779893E.jpeg
 
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MSTN said:
All the trimming and shimming becomes unnecessary of you simply start with a quality receiver and barrel. There's no way a mere mortal with simple hand tools is going to outperform a 4-Axis Haas CNC machine. With a quality upper, it takes a couple of minutes with the heat gun for the upper receiver to accept a (typically oversized) barrel extension as found on match grade barrels.



A little history I observed decades ago as an "adjunct target painter" where the SEALS trained:

The Recce was developed by DevGroup armorers in the late nineties. They were capable of MOA at 600 yards with heir match ammo. They started out with Compass Lake Krieger barrels, originally, but then went to Lilja years later, around 2000. Noveske and others have been utilized since.

The mid-length gas system hadn't even been created way back then, so all early Recces had carbine length gas (NOT optimum). Even after the mid-length gas system came into common use, they kept using the carbine length, because "that's what was in the supply system". It took a while to appreciate the many advantages of a longer gas system.

The old Lilja barrels were truly awesome. I custom ordered them for years. I'm now a fan of Craddock-produced Bartlein and Proof Research carbon fiber wrapped ("CFW") barrels for max precision. Noveske and V Seven are also making great stuff. I'm sure there are many others, possibly even better, but these are simply the ones with which I've had first hand experience.



Currently, I think the optimum precision tactical 5.56 would sport a 12.5" - 16" match grade barrel. Mid-length gas with 12.5" - 14.5", and intermediate length gas with the 16". Every effort should be made to keep the gun lightweight and have a unit power optic capability, since it has to be able to run in the stack, too.

My own shooters:

IMG_7206.jpg


That's a 12.5" Bartlein, above. Mount a big, fat NF ATACR and it will shoot 1/2" with good ammo. It's hard for me to do much better than MOA with the 1.5 MOA dot in the 8 power NF NX8. But, it's not a bench rest gun. Produces 14.5" chrome lined barrel velocities with the match chamber.
Click to expand...

What handguard is that on your 12.5"?

Thanks,
S41PH3R
 
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