Reduced quality 22LR ammo - most match brands

[Williwaw]

So the “harmonic” frequency would be moving many times faster than the bullet. And also the bullets would be varying in speed. So how can they exit at the same “time.”

There are many videos like the above showing no muzzle vibrations.

Even if tuners work, the amount shots required for a reasonable confidence level to determine the best setting is a lot more that what most of y'all are doing…. I think @stats_guy just dropped an app that will do these statistics.

Just to clarify here, the vibrational frequencies(and there are many) and the resulting harmonic frequencies( and although fewer there are many of those too) do not have a velocity. There is an associated velocity, different for every frequency. But as you say, all of those faster than the bullet ... true but irrelevant. None of the frequencies 'exit' and tuning a rimfire has nothing to do with having the bullet exit coincident with any frequency exiting.

The minute barrel movements that produce a positive compensation tune aren't going to be detected in a video of the sort presented.

The amount of shots required to determine an effective setting is astronomically large if the shooter does not understand how a tune works. For those that do, I think Lee's estimate is ballpark for many, I'm a little higher but then I've got a good tune applicable to a case or two more of that lot.

 

[Csafisher]

Just to clarify here, the vibrational frequencies(and there are many) and the resulting harmonic frequencies( and although fewer there are many of those too) do not have a velocity. There is an associated velocity, different for every frequency. But as you say, all of those faster than the bullet ... true but irrelevant. None of the frequencies 'exit' and tuning a rimfire has nothing to do with having the bullet exit coincident with any frequency exiting.

The minute barrel movements that produce a positive compensation tune aren't going to be detected in a video of the sort presented.

The amount of shots required to determine an effective setting is astronomically large if the shooter does not understand how a tune works. For those that do, I think Lee's estimate is ballpark for many, I'm a little higher but then I've got a good tune applicable to a case or two more of that lot.

Right so only the enlightened ones can figure out a tuner setting…. . And you can do the math to figure out how much a barrel would need to move to make a difference and guess what, you could actually see that difference with these cameras.

 

[Csafisher]

He just likes to expound on topics using unrelated un-collaborated tangential evidence that fits his point of view. The link between center fire tuning and Rimfire tuning is one word without background facts. Rimfire tuners are a proven entity in the Rimfire benchrest community.

Please explain the difference from a physics perspective.

 

[GuideDog]

There must be combo of factors that sometimes enable more accuracy to a longer riffle barrel than shorter the one. And it's not just in the case 22LR, but centerfire catridges as well. Example: one of the most accurate weapons ever chambered in 7.62x39 mm cartridge is probably Iraqi Tabuk. That designated "marksman rifle" had relatively thin barrel 24" long. In experiments in "Crvena Zastava" factory in ex Yugoslavia, it was discovered that it is more accurate that previously thought the most accurate M72 rifle with 22" long barrel. And it wasn't just more accurate with higher grade ammo, but also with most of factory ammos. Machines, tolerances and materials used in the process of making both rifles were same. I suppose during experimental development of designing the rifle they found a sweet spot, kind of redistributed tuner device at work lol

So the “harmonic” frequency would be moving many times faster than the bullet. And also the bullets would be varying in speed. So how can they exit at the same “time.”



There are many videos like the above showing no muzzle vibrations.

Even if tuners work, the amount shots required for a reasonable confidence level to determine the best setting is a lot more that what most of y'all are doing…. I think @stats_guy just dropped an app that will do these statistics.

I wonder if anyone understands harmonics and natural frequencies are a product of the whole unit meaning, action, stock, barrel, and the magazine. Removing the magazine can change harmonics as much as a tuner. Removing the magazine with a spring loaded follower removes vibrations. I have not measured but it has to be significant. Without true data discussion is at best "fun", but some want to stomp out any chatter that won't add to "theories". I don't think most know harmonics are multiples of the natural frequency

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I wonder if anyone understands harmonics and natural frequencies are a product of the whole unit meaning, action, stock, barrel, and the magazine. Removing the magazine can change harmonics as much as a tuner. Removing the magazine with a spring loaded follower removes vibrations. I have not measured but it has to be significant. Without true data discussion is at best "fun", but some want to stomp out any chatter that won't add to "theories". I don't think most know harmonics are multiples of the natural frequency

How I tune a rimfire benchrest rifle is not theory and based off experience. the theories of a set tuner length (PRX) adjust for environmental changes and or each lot will work for most of the time but will fail somewhere in time and usually during a match.
rimfire tuning is about bullet exit timing and using the tuner to provide the correct exit by placing weight forward of the crown.
I base my tuning on how an iR50/50 sporter rifle can shoot so well with no adjustable way of tuning. it has to do with having the correct weight forward of the crown.
The example in the picture is of one of the winningest sporter rifles. someone wrote about how reverse taper barrels made no significant difference between a straight profile. well in rimfire it does as it helps increase barrel movement to gain the highest peak rise of the barrel, so bullet exit is at the top.
I am sorry I cannot provide the data you seek, as I don't keep records other than my match history in 8 years, my lowest placement was a 5th place, and two 3rd places finished the rest 1st or 2nd.

but I have to ask you for data on removing a magazine and how it changes harmonics, your turn

Lee

 

[GuideDog]

Right so only the enlightened ones can figure out a tuner setting…. . And you can do the math to figure out how much a barrel would need to move to make a difference and guess what, you could actually see that difference with these cameras.

Think about what I already said. How does a magazine fed action resonate with the remaining rounds changing each shot and the ammo follower and spring resonating? How will that be "tuned" out? Ah, so that's why there are single shot actions that not one has mentioned.

Why don't we conclude that tuners might work for some builds and not others? At least until there's a high speed camera and accelerometers that can show how this works. I don't know why that's hard to find, but it is. I have looked.

Maybe someone else has found a link showing the effects of a tuner on a rimfire action using proper instrumentation at least. It would be awesome if there is a high speed video too. Maybe it can show the effect of user input and mechanical variance like changes in friction on the trigger when torqued at a slightly different angle each time it's pulled. Hopefully it also discusses the changes is barrel fouling after each shot too. Maybe points of contact that influence harmonics. hardly anyone mentions barrel weight and contour, diameter. Point is there are so many variables that there can be a conclusion, but only on one single shot.

 

[GuideDog]

How I tune a rimfire benchrest rifle is not theory and based off experience. the theories of a set tuner length (PRX) adjust for environmental changes and or each lot will work for most of the time but will fail somewhere in time and usually during a match.
rimfire tuning is about bullet exit timing and using the tuner to provide the correct exit by placing weight forward of the crown.
I base my tuning on how an iR50/50 sporter rifle can shoot so well with no adjustable way of tuning. it has to do with having the correct weight forward of the crown.
The example in the picture is of one of the winningest sporter rifles. someone wrote about how reverse taper barrels made no significant difference between a straight profile. well in rimfire it does as it helps increase barrel movement to gain the highest peak rise of the barrel, so bullet exit is at the top.
I am sorry I cannot provide the data you seek, as I don't keep records other than my match history in 8 years, my lowest placement was a 5th place, and two 3rd places finished the rest 1st or 2nd.

but I have to ask you for data on removing a magazine and how it changes harmonics, your turn

Lee

That's simple physics don't you agree? Perform a simple test, remove the magazine and you have your own data.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

That's simple physics don't you agree? Perform a simple test, remove the magazine and you have your own data.

Just as I thought, you're guessing!

Lee

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Guys. The tuners work / don't-work morass has become as tedious and hackneyed as MOA vs mils.

Either use one or don't and stop already with the proselytizing.

O wait what fun is that.....

 

[oldrifleman]

Guys. The tuners work / don't-work morass has become as tedious and hackneyed as MOA vs mils.

Either use one or don't and stop already with the proselytizing.

O wait what fun is that.....

^^^^^^^^^^
This!

 

[GuideDog]

Just as I thought, you're guessing!

Lee

Would you like data on my rifle? Is that what you are asking for? Will you believe it? The answer is it can change the resonant frequency about 20Hz. The effect on accuracy depends on the configuration, center of mass, location of the magazine, way too many factors to list.

How many have tried this exact experiment? I bet many. No, I don't have an exact number. I don't need one. Fact is it changes the point of impact.

The easy answer is remove your magazine, note the result. Reinsert, note the result.

If I said drop two objects of different weights, when would each hit the ground dropped from the same height guess you would say I don't know the answer. Just as you thought, guessing? Gravity.

 

[oldrifleman]

Would you like data on my rifle? Is that what you are asking for? Will you believe it? The answer is it can change the resonant frequency about 20Hz. The effect on accuracy depends on the configuration, center of mass, location of the magazine, way too many factors to list.

How many have tried this exact experiment? I bet many. No, I don't have an exact number. I don't need one. Fact is it changes the point of impact.

The easy answer is remove your magazine, note the result. Reinsert, note the result.

If I said drop two objects of different weights, when would each hit the ground dropped from the same height guess you would say I don't know the answer. Just as you thought, guessing? Gravity.

Blah blah Blah. Tired of this stupidity, I am out ( I know “ good riddance “ probably true) just bored with you.

 

[GuideDog]

Blah blah Blah. Tired of this stupidity, I am out ( I know “ good riddance “ probably true) just bored with you.

I bet someone will learn from this and that's truly what is important. What boars you interests others. Perhaps most.

 

[Williwaw]

Think about what I already said. How does a magazine fed action resonate with the remaining rounds changing each shot and the ammo follower and spring resonating? How will that be "tuned" out? Ah, so that's why there are single shot actions that not one has mentioned.

I'm certainly learning stuff here that I don't get anywhere else ... amazing.

 

[GuideDog]

I'm certainly learning stuff here that I don't get anywhere else ... amazing.

I hope you picked up on leaving your magazine out for better accuracy. It's one of the fairly well known techniques used but not passed off nearly enough. Single feed adapters are readily available. They reduce harmonics and vibrations by eliminating a "weighted spring" hanging there needlessly. This is perhaps the simplest thing to try to get that last 0.10 inch of accuracy and could eliminate a few flyers too.

AI is great! You can google this for further explanation:

Leaving the magazine out and single-feeding rounds can potentially improve rimfire accuracy on a benchrest rifle by reducing harmonics and other inconsistencies. For top-level competition, single-feeding is standard practice.

 

[Williwaw]

Holy moly, that there is wackadoodle.

 

[Csafisher]

Only Idiots, Seems you are "Special"

Still waiting for your explanation on how the physics of tuning RF is different from CF…

 

[oldrifleman]

Still waiting for your explanation on how the physics of tuning RF is different from CF…

I am sure you are, and will likely keep waiting, as there would be nothing I could say other than the two are worlds apart and you have ignored everyone who has tried to explain it.
With a slow, irregular, easily deformed lead projectile traveling at subsonic speeds down a fairly fouled barrel ( Rimfire are in ways more like black powder rounds that the modern high speed rounds in terms of crud deposits in the barrel). I honestly have not the time nor inclination to dig out my physics 201 fluids and physical properties texts to deal with it.
I have shot with great shooter both center fire and Rimfire. I know that center fire BR matches are won frequently by non-tuned rifles while in Rimfire you almost never see a non-tuned rifle at the top.
My BR rig is amazing and shoots great groups without a tuner, but is much easier to get the spectacular groups when the tuner is on. Counter my 308s deliver spectacular groups without a tuner.
My Engineering professors said that empirical evidence just needs more math, I am just not driven to discover it.

 

[Csafisher]

I am sure you are, and will likely keep waiting, as there would be nothing I could say other than the two are worlds apart and you have ignored everyone who has tried to explain it.
With a slow, irregular, easily deformed lead projectile traveling at subsonic speeds down a fairly fouled barrel ( Rimfire are in ways more like black powder rounds that the modern high speed rounds in terms of crud deposits in the barrel). I honestly have not the time nor inclination to dig out my physics 201 fluids and physical properties texts to deal with it.
I have shot with great shooter both center fire and Rimfire. I know that center fire BR matches are won frequently by non-tuned rifles while in Rimfire you almost never see a non-tuned rifle at the top.
My BR rig is amazing and shoots great groups without a tuner, but is much easier to get the spectacular groups when the tuner is on. Counter my 308s deliver spectacular groups without a tuner.
My Engineering professors said that empirical evidence just needs more math, I am just not driven to discover it.

So you don’t have an answer. Just anecdotal crap about fluid dynamics and winning matches.

 

[oldrifleman]

So you don’t have an answer. Just anecdotal crap about fluid dynamics and winning matches.

I never said I did, it was your assertion that you required the scientific facts. The rest of the world does what wins and allow others to lose. As with all things you are going to do what you believe and I will do what I believe, and at my age I don’t really care.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

So you don’t have an answer. Just anecdotal crap about fluid dynamics and winning matches.

I gather you shoot CFBR and use a tuner so let me ask you this have you ever taken factory loaded CF ammo and tuned your rifle with it?
how many CFBR shooter use ammo right off the shelf at a local Gunshop to compete with?

This is and will always be the difference between CF and RF when tuning.

Lee

 

[Csafisher]

I gather you shoot CFBR and use a tuner so let me ask you this have you ever taken factory loaded CF ammo and tuned your rifle with it?
how many CFBR shooter use ammo right off the shelf at a local Gunshop to compete with?

This is and will always be the difference between CF and RF when tuning.

Lee

I was asking about the physics not of tuning “harmonics.” Not ammo. I’ve used tuners for both RF and CF. I’ve done rather large sampling for multiple barrels with EC tuners on RF. No statical difference. And in my barrels the act of putting the weight (tuner) on it didn’t make any difference either. I think adding a weight may or may not help but in the several barrels I’ve tried it’s not been any different. Turning a tuner a small amount to get a “node” seems to be ridiculous. I’ve done enough testing with my CF to realize if it actually does work it’s not worth the time and effort. Plus this is all backed up by the tests done by litz, RAD, and hornady… And a plethora of super slo motion video with no “barrel whip” even with magnums. There has yet to be any tests proving they do work. As many people that out there claiming they do work, you’d think someone could do it….. It’s not a hard test. No they just cling to the dogma…. And anecdotal evidence brought on by small samples and confirmation bias.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I was asking about the physics not of tuning “harmonics.” Not ammo. I’ve used tuners for both RF and CF. I’ve done rather large sampling for multiple barrels with EC tuners on RF. No statical difference. And in my barrels the act of putting the weight (tuner) on it didn’t make any difference either. I think adding a weight may or may not help but in the several barrels I’ve tried it’s not been any different. Turning a tuner a small amount to get a “node” seems to be ridiculous. I’ve done enough testing with my CF to realize if it actually does work it’s not worth the time and effort. Plus this is all backed up by the tests done by litz, RAD, and hornady… And a plethora of super slo motion video with no “barrel whip” even with magnums. There has yet to be any tests proving they do work. As many people that out there claiming they do work, you’d think someone could do it….. It’s not a hard test. No they just cling to the dogma…. And anecdotal evidence brought on by small samples and confirmation bias.

Here's the problem you keep mentioning CF related testing none of this Plus this is all backed up by the tests done by litz, RAD, and hornady… And a plethora of super slo motion video with no “barrel whip” even with magnums Has anything to do with RF and certainly not RFBR rifles. and if you tried tuning a RFBR rifle you would understand.

Lee

 

[Williwaw]

I was asking about the physics not of tuning “harmonics.” Not ammo. I’ve used tuners for both RF and CF. I’ve done rather large sampling for multiple barrels with EC tuners on RF. No statical difference. And in my barrels the act of putting the weight (tuner) on it didn’t make any difference either. I think adding a weight may or may not help but in the several barrels I’ve tried it’s not been any different. Turning a tuner a small amount to get a “node” seems to be ridiculous. I’ve done enough testing with my CF to realize if it actually does work it’s not worth the time and effort. Plus this is all backed up by the tests done by litz, RAD, and hornady… And a plethora of super slo motion video with no “barrel whip” even with magnums. There has yet to be any tests proving they do work. As many people that out there claiming they do work, you’d think someone could do it….. It’s not a hard test. No they just cling to the dogma…. And anecdotal evidence brought on by small samples and confirmation bias.

Are you familiar with Dr. Kolbe (ex Border Barrels, UK), Guy Starik, or VarmintAl?

You are a little spare of details regarding your own efforts which have led you to conclude that my trusted method "seems to be ridiculous". IMO Litz made a mess of his RF tuner test ... not to disrespect him but he just didn't know what he didn't know.

I'm not familiar with the plethora of video evidence that you refer too. In that regard, are any of them shot with resolution on the order of thousandths of an inch which is likely required to detect barrel vibration. In fact I just reread your post and I can see that you seem to deny barrel vibration ... I won't say whip because the term is a very poor descriptor of the phenomena. That being the case there will never be any common ground for us on the topic of rimfire tuners. Good luck, run with what works for you.