Reloader-17 updates? (MORE RESULTS! > 308 Win.)

kombayotch

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Haven't heard any updates about this powder in a while and was wondering if anyone has tried it in 308 Win. I've been running numbers in QL with the latest version of the powder file. RL-17 is topping the list in velocity VERY often for the 308. Even with 155 Scenars...

Should have ordered some when Grafs and Powder Valley had it in.
mad.gif
 

Ratbert

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

How long of a barrel are you running in QL where it works well with the Scenars? What kind of speed is it saying?
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

26" barrel

With Hornady brass and 2.800" COAL its showing 3000 fps. Not significantly faster than the other powders, but surprising none the less with the lighter bullet. It was also near the top with Lapua brass.
 

MontanaMarine

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

I was looking for some locally, but none to be found.

I'll give it a shakeout with 155 Scenars, and 208 AMax's in the 308, and 30-06.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The second reason RL17 offers so much added velocity is load density. This powder packs very tightly compared to other "slow" extruded powders such as H4350 and H4831sc. For chamberings limited by case capacity, RL17 lets you put more powder (by weight) into the case.</div></div>

Quickload shows this. The weight is quite a bit higher on RL-17 for the same loading density.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was looking for some locally, but none to be found.

I'll give it a shakeout with 155 Scenars, and 208 AMax's in the 308, and 30-06. </div></div>

Well, looks like I'll be the one giving the update. Just received 5 cans of RL-17 and I'll give it a whirl with both those bullet in my 308 tomorrow or Sunday.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Ok, I was out testing RL-17 in the 308 Win. with 155 Scenars and 208 AMAX bullets today. I didn't get up to maximum loads on either. But here are my results (5 shot data) so far and some results with other powders (just for QL comparisons):

26" 1-11 Schneider barrel (GAP Palma chamber)
Estimate bore area at .073806 sq.in.

155 Scenar
Lapua brass (55.7gr. water capacity fired in my chamber)
CCI BR2
COAL = 2.800" (OG = 2.185")

RL-17 (78F - today):
47.0gr. > 2704fps (avg.)
47.5gr. > 2735fps (avg.)
48.0gr. > 2760fps (avg.)
48.5gr. > 2810fps (avg.)
49.0gr. > 2819fps (avg.)

IMR4895 (80F - old data)
43.0gr. > 2809fps (avg.)
43.5gr. > 2835fps (avg.)
44.0gr. > 2879fps (avg.)
44.5gr. > 2914fps (avg.)
45.0gr. > 2951fps (avg.)


208 AMAX
Hornady Match brass (57.4gr. water capacity fired in my chamber)
CCI BR2
COAL = 2.900" (OG = 2.175")

RL-17 (78F - today):
41.5gr. > 2244fps (avg.)
42.0gr. > 2256fps (avg.)
42.5gr. > 2296fps (avg.)
43.0gr. > 2323fps (avg.)
43.5gr. > 2363fps (avg.)

N550 (74F - old data):
42.0gr. > 2387fps (avg.)
42.5gr. > 2425fps (avg.)
43.0gr. > 2444fps (avg.)
43.5gr. > 2466fps (avg.)
44.0gr. > 2478fps (avg.)

A few observations and caveats I should point out:

-RL-17 data was taken on a different chronographs than the other powders. However, both were CED Millenniums with the IR package.
-Results for both bullets were 100-150fps slower than predicted by QL. QL is only 20fps(max) off for the IMR4895 and N550 results.
-The impact point of the 155 Scenars relative to my zero made sense for the measured velocities.
-No pressure signs on the 155 Scenar loads other than primers flattening out so far.
-Brass for the 208 AMAX at 2363fps w/ RL-17 looked no different than the brass for N550 at 2387fps.
-I was rushed to begin with and this was compounded by the chronograph at my range not working and having to borrow someone elses. So, I wasn't taking any time to try and get good groups. That being said, I don't feel that the groups were as good as I was getting with the other powders. But, I'm going to work up to maximum and then do a side-by-side comparison on the same chronograph.
 

MontanaMarine

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Interesting.

Just for reference, with moly'd 208s in Win brass, I ran 44.5gr RL15 for 2480 fps in a 22" bbl/2520 fps in 26" bbl., 45.0 gr gave slight flattening of primers and slight bolt resistance.

With the RL17, in my rifle, I'll start at 45.0 and work up from there.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Yep, but I'm going to see how far I can go with the load and I also want to re-check the numbers beside a load of known velocity. We were having issues with those CEDs, so I just want to make sure.

I may have 4 lbs of RL-17 up for sale in the exchange forum in the near future.
 

MarcS

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

I'm interested in seeing what it can do in my .260 with a 142 SMK. Right now I'm getting them out at 2,800 with 43.5 grains of H4350. If all the hype is true then I could see improvements that get me close to that of a 6.5X284.

Marc
 

MitchAlsup

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">26" 1-11 Schneider barrel (GAP Palma chamber)
Estimate bore area at .073806 sq.in.

155 Scenar
Lapua brass (55.7gr. water capacity fired in my chamber)
CCI BR2
COAL = 2.800" (OG = 2.185")

RL-17 (78F - today):
49.0gr. > 2819fps (avg.)

IMR4895 (80F - old data)
45.0gr. > 2951fps (avg.)
</div></div>

The RL-17 is very slow, the 4895 is where the scenars like to operate (about 2950 fps).
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Yes, I'm aware... as I said, I didn't get up to the max load on either. I did today on the Scenar, but unfortunately I ran out of 208s. Thought I had another box, but it was 180 RN.

Anyway, I was back on the original CED today (it was working again) and heres what I got:

155 Scenar
RL-17 (79F - today):
49.5gr. > 2875fps (avg.)
50.0gr. > 2903fps (avg.) Bit of shine from the EJ
50.5gr. > 2968fps (avg.) Got EJ marks, stopped here.

208 AMAX
RL-17 (79F - today):
44.0gr. > 2418fps (avg.)
44.5gr. > 2477fps (avg.)

With the 208, the brass at 44.5gr. showed less pressure than N550 at 44.0gr. I was getting at bit of shine from the EJ with the N550, but nothing with RL-17. If I shake the loaded cases, I can hear the powder moving. So, there is still room in the case to go higher. I'm going to push it further once I get some more bullets. Montana, I think you're going to love this powder.

Now, I have a pretty short throat and I've noticed that a lot of guys on here seem to get the Scenar to higher velocities than I can. I'm fairly confident that a bunch of you guys are going to be able to get it up to 2950fps without problems, and a few will get it over 3000fps.

With both these loads, the groups tightened up once the velocity got up there.

EDIT: One more comment I should make is that this powder burns incredibly clean. I'm looking at my fired cases and not seeing hardly any carbon on the insides of the necks. On the cases that were near max, the outside of the necks have almost no residue on them either.
 

MitchAlsup

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EDIT: One more comment I should make is that this powder burns incredibly clean. I'm looking at my fired cases and not seeing hardly any carbon on the insides of the necks. On the cases that were near max, the outside of the necks have almost no residue on them either. </div></div>

This, actually, is a sign that the pressures are finally at the point where the neck is sealing the gasses from the chamber. A sooty neck is a sign of underpressure.
 

jasonk

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Just for comparison, w/ 155 Scenars and H4895, I was getting 2920 out of a 22" Gap 308, bullets seated to AICS mag length using 44.5 grains of powder.

Not sure that's really useful, just throwing it out for comparison.

Jason
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Was out again today testing some loads with RL-17. Today it was the 190gr. SMK. Based my the end points on Quickload data.

Hornady Match 308
210M
COAL = 2.775"
OG = 2.185"

RL-17 (70F - Today)
44.0gr. > 2444fps (avg.)
44.5gr. > 2487fps (avg.)
45.0gr. > 2551fps (avg.)
45.5gr. > 2543fps (avg.)
46.0gr. > 2564fps (avg.)
46.5gr. > 2603fps (avg.)
47.0gr. > 2635fps (avg.)

N550 (70F - Today)
45.0gr. > 2594fps (avg.)
45.5gr. > 2645fps (avg.)
46.0gr. > 2685fps (avg.)
46.5gr. > 2712fps (avg.)
47.0gr. > 2746fps (avg.)
47.5gr. > 2762fps (avg.)
48.0gr. > 2777fps (avg.)

The N550 load was at the top, but I think the RL-17 had a bit more to go. I don't think it would catch up to the N550 before it ran out of case room.

I also tested a few more rounds with the 155 Scenar with RL-17. The ES and SD numbers are very low with this combination.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

About this accurate:

P1030952.jpg

5 shot groups fired during load development (from Harris bipod)
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EDIT: One more comment I should make is that this powder burns incredibly clean. I'm looking at my fired cases and not seeing hardly any carbon on the insides of the necks. On the cases that were near max, the outside of the necks have almost no residue on them either. </div></div>

This, actually, is a sign that the pressures are finally at the point where the neck is sealing the gasses from the chamber. A sooty neck is a sign of underpressure. </div></div>

Yes, but it wasn't sooty on the inside either, almost bare brass. I've noticed this on all my RL-17 loads.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Well, I've come to the conclusion that N550 gives better velocities and better accuracy than RL-17 with 190/208 grain bullets in my gun. I have a fairly short throat, so those with factory chambers may have better results with RL-17 than I did.
 

JLM

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was looking for some locally, but none to be found.

I'll give it a shakeout with 155 Scenars, and 208 AMax's in the 308, and 30-06. </div></div>

MM, did you ever get your tests run? You and I talked about it, but I haven't got around to trying it yet.
 

MontanaMarine

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

I just found some RL17 in Helena. Picked up a pound for testing. I'll run some under moly'd 208s in my 20.5" Rem Factory bbl/chamber.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

I've since ran a test comparing the 210 SMK, 210 Berger VLD & BT and the 208 AMAX. Work up loads with Pressure Trace, fired them all at 1k and derived BCs. Been dragging my feet on writing up the report...

In a nutshell, I managed to get all of them to around 2600 fps, even in my short throated chamber without any moly (26" bbl.). The BCs were very close for all of them, with the AMAX being the highest. I got the best groups from the SMK, it shot really well from 100 to 1k. The BT also did quite well.
 

JLM

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Re: Reloader-17 updates? (MORE RESULTS! > 308 Win.)

kombayotch, outstanding!

So, write up the report allready..
grin.gif
 

doc76251

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've since ran a test comparing the 210 SMK, 210 Berger VLD & BT and the 208 AMAX. Work up loads with Pressure Trace, fired them all at 1k and derived BCs. Been dragging my feet on writing up the report...

In a nutshell, I managed to get all of them to around 2600 fps, even in my short throated chamber without any moly (26" bbl.). The BCs were very close for all of them, with the AMAX being the highest. I got the best groups from the SMK, it shot really well from 100 to 1k. The BT also did quite well. </div></div>

I'd be interested on your results via the down low if you don't want to go public. I have a start but no follow up time.

Cheers,

Doc
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Here are a few highlights:

Hornady brass, 210M primers, 26" Schneider 5P 1-11"

All rounds loaded to 0.020" from lands:
Bullet COAL
210 BT 2.954”
210 VLD 2.868”
208 AMAX 2.927”
210 SMK 2.861”

I plotted all the pressure and velocity points to charts (all very linear, R^2 > 0.983) and derived the following velocities at 58k psi:
210 BT > 2627 fps.
210 VLD > 2595 fps.
208 AMAX > 2626 fps.
210 SMK > 2619 fps.

Also loaded up some 208 AMAXs with N550 for comparison, at 58k psi:
208 AMAX > 2525 fps.

I'm using 58k psi as a comparison point because they didn't all land on the same pressure.

Here are the maximums I hit with RL-17:
210 BT > 2648 fps. @ 59317 psi
210 VLD > 2594 fps. @ 57880 psi
208 AMAX > 2611 fps. @ 57880 psi
210 SMK > 2635 fps. @ 58936 psi

With N550:
208 AMAX > 2543 fps. @ 59570 psi

BCs I derived form my 1000 yard test (4 bullets on 4 targets in a round robin):
210 BT > 0.631
210 VLD > 0.622
208 AMAX > 0.635
210 SMK > 0.627

It should be noted that the metaplat on the VLD was huge compared to the BT... it isn't supposed to be according to Bryan Litz.
 

JLM

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Komb, thank you Sir!
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

lol! that wasn't the report... just the highlights.
 

kombayotch

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

Draft of the report is done. Will post it pending a few reviews.
 

Asm1

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Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

I put some RL17 threw my 18.5" 308 with 208 AMAX the results show 2550 + at this time,I do have a couple more test to run,But this is looking good !
 

Niles Coyote

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put some RL17 threw my 18.5" 308 with 208 AMAX the results show 2550 + at this time,I do have a couple more test to run,But this is looking good ! </div></div>

    Thats impressive! Has any one tested how RL17 handles temp changes?
     

    kombayotch

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put some RL17 threw my 18.5" 308 with 208 AMAX the results show 2550 + at this time,I do have a couple more test to run,But this is looking good ! </div></div>

    Thats impressive! Has any one tested how RL17 handles temp changes? </div></div>

    Does about as well as RL-15...
     

    Asm1

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put some RL17 threw my 18.5" 308 with 208 AMAX the results show 2550 + at this time,I do have a couple more test to run,But this is looking good ! </div></div>

    Thats impressive! Has any one tested how RL17 handles temp changes? </div></div>

    Does about as well as RL-15... </div></div>

    Agreed..
     

    ChadTRG42

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    K,

    Great info, and very detailed. Thanks for putting this together. I was curious about the increase in recoil, and came up with these numbers. I am using a rifle weight of 13 lbs.

    208 A-max @ 2600
    13 ft lbs, and 8 fps

    175 @ 2700
    11 ft lbs, and 7 fps

    155 @ 2900
    11 fl lbs, and 7 fps

    The 208 has about an 18% increase in recoil compared to the 175 and 155 bullets.
     

    eddybo

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    Thanks for that report. I am interested to see what RL 17 will do in a 308 throated long, like .150 longer. I was able to get some amazing velocities using 4350 (or was it 4895 H powders all run together for me, especially before I have had my coffee) and the 208 with the long throat, but was still a little short on case capacity. I kept ruining cases trying to seat the bullets even though they were barely hanging in the cases because the powder would get trapped between the case and the bullet. Seems like RL 17 would at least fit in the case. I sold the rifle I was testing this in to a buddy but it is still sitting out in my shop. I may get permission to run a few through it and see if there are any gains. I had worked up to 51.5 grains of 4350 or 4895 whichever I was using. I have pressure trace but never tried it, but would assume that I had worked up pretty high based on QL estimates. I lost interest in the experiment when I slowed down shooting f-class to build more guns. Closest I can figure I was going to have a 2 inch wind advantage for FTR using 208s over 168 bergers at the velocities I could get, but that thing was punishing.
     

    BLAWTON

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    I ran a few pounds of it after i liked the results with the rl-15 i was having. I didnt like what it was doing and when i scoped my bore i didnt like the crap it left in the barrel as well. Looks like im going back to H powders again.
     

    Rovieairto

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    I've been running a long seated .308 using RL-17 and the 178 grain a-max.
    Win mod 70 27" stainless Palma barrel.
    This bullet's boat tail occurs right at the juncture of the case neck/bottle neck when seated about 0.0015" off the lands.
    I'm running 50.0 grains RL-17 in a BHA case with a little crunching and no audible sound when shaking.
    Pressure looks to be the same as 45.0 RL-15 loaded to 2.80 with a 155 a-max based on primer radius flattening alone.
    No brass flow on either load was detected.
    I've only run this load out to 600 yards and the 178 needs one MOA more elevation than the 155 (RL-15) load.
    It will probably do very well at 1000 yards.
    Accuracy has been excellent with either.
    I'd love to have a chonograph but lately I've been determining velocity based upon a bullet's average BC and it's ballistic arc under my conditions.
     

    Short-bus

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    I was just wondering if any of y'alls following this thread had heard, or read anything about 208amax's and RL17 in 20" barrels. I'd like to shoot 208's out of my 20" mcgowan .308, but i'm really hoping to get at least 2500fps with slightly flattened primers at the absolute most for pressure signs. I just don't want to put out a lot of money to test this is it's going to fail regardless. If there's hope, i'd like to go for it.

    Branden
     

    Asm1

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was just wondering if any of y'alls following this thread had heard, or read anything about 208amax's and RL17 in 20" barrels. I'd like to shoot 208's out of my 20" mcgowan .308, but i'm really hoping to get at least 2500fps with slightly flattened primers at the absolute most for pressure signs. I just don't want to put out a lot of money to test this is it's going to fail regardless. If there's hope, i'd like to go for it.

    Branden </div></div>

    As I said in my post up above..I put some RL17 threw my 18.5" 308 with 208 AMAX the results show 2550 + at this time,I do have a couple more test to run,But this is looking good !




     

    Short-bus

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    I totally missed that post, sorry about that. What is the load data that you used to get 2550? How much powder, and what case and primer? I'm going to run out tomorrow and get all the components together. I don't have any books with the loading data for that bullet, they're too old, and the hodgdon site only goes up to some 200gr SP bullet for their loading data.

    Branden
     

    Asm1

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I totally missed that post, sorry about that. What is the load data that you used to get 2550? How much powder, and what case and primer? I'm going to run out tomorrow and get all the components together. I don't have any books with the loading data for that bullet, they're too old, and the hodgdon site only goes up to some 200gr SP bullet for their loading data.

    Branden </div></div>
    No problem
    Use this at your own risk
    LC LR brass or lapua
    Start at 45.8 and work up to 46 - 46.5 RL17
    208/210 seated long as you can
    210m primer

    I am at 46.5 and 2550fps no pressure in the mid 80's with my 18.5" barrel and 2600fps same load with my 26" barrel..


    On the 18.5" barrel gun at 2550fps I back tracked it from the come ups at 565 and 1k I must do a box test and Crony the load to verify it 100%,But I think it will show its true.
     

    Short-bus

    customguncoatings.com
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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    I'm headed out tomorrow (well, technically today now) with my daughters to source some RL17 and 208 amax's. I may also try the powder with my 178Amax's and see if I can get more out of them. I'm already getting 2720avg with 4064 right now, and i'm not even at max. I loaded some at max and still didn't get any pressure signs, not even stiff bolt lift, I didn't chrono those though.

    I really hope I have good success with RL17 and 208 amax's. Having 200yards more supersonic flight range and much more retained energy with reduced wind drift is a huge plus to the heavier bullets.

    Branden
     

    kombayotch

    Gunny Sergeant
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    Sep 20, 2007
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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    If you can seat the bullet out far enough to take advantage of case capacity, RL-17 may give great velocities with the middle weight bullet (175-190gr.). You'll probably need to jam at least 50 gr. of it into the case before you start to see it surpass what powders like 4046, Varget, and RL-15 are capable of. It took around 48 gr. of it to get the 210s up to max pressure. Lighter bullet will take more.

    With a long throat and/or VLDs, it may work great.
     

    Short-bus

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    Re: Any Reloader-17 updates?

    I dropped 50grains into a case just to see how far up it filled the case......not going to be seating a bullet on top of it. It's about a 1/8" from the mouth of the case. It would be quite a compressed load.

    Branden