I think we can also agree that Duschnozzle2000 can't shoot for shit
Ridgeline LPR vs Seekins SP223
- Thread starter zekers7
- Start date
I’m not calling you a liar. I’m just saying your statement seemed very exaggerated. Another member commented the same thing. It’s my opinion. I don’t need to hold them side by side to honestly believe your statement was exaggerated. I have a lot of Seekins, small and large frames. When there’s not any flex it’s impossible to have “way better no flex”. Anyway, Jesus, I honestly don’t care lol.
Ahh we need to distinguish better names. Cause I’m pretty sure in this thread someone was talking about the knights lpr. Badass upper no doubt. But now ppl are calling the ridgeline a lpr also
You can't legitimately say the Seekins "has no flex". You might be able to argue the amount of flex present is inconsequential enough to not matter and so good enough is good enough. And I would agree with that, but that doesn't mean the LPR still isn't more rigid. I never said it mattered on paper, I just made the distinction that the LPR has a more robust and better designed joint between the upper and handguard.
Why would I exaggerate? I have obviously spent a lot of money on both Seekins and Ridgeline's guns. And I've obviously invested a lot of time experimenting with both of these guns to get them to shoot at a level that you're not capable of. I've gotten each of the Seekins and LPR to a state that I don't think a person could do better, with any other platform. So if I have a fairly objective comparison of the two gun's design and make a pretty logical assertion, why would I need to exaggerate it?
Ya, fair. I definitely don't mean a Knights gun. I have a lot of experience shooting SR25 's (that I didn't pay for) and I wouldn't waste my own money on one. In the context of a military contract gun, I understand what makes them significant, even if they failed in that area pretty often as the M110. For what I want to do outside of the military, I don't think they compare to a custom built Seekins or Ridgeline...15-LPR.
I wouldn’t have commented if you said “LPR has a more robust and better designed joint between the upper and handguard.” Hell, I don’t necessarily disagree but also don’t really have an opinion having not checked it out personally.
You certainly did exaggerate and inferred the LPR has way less flex than the Seekins. That’s what I had an issue with. I don’t agree. Again, just my opinion on a gun discussion board. Also my opinion is there can’t be a significant amount of flex difference that’s practically noticeable. I might be wrong but doubt it. Doesn’t really matter.
Do you get gymnastics coaching from Simone Biles? You are flexing logic all over the place trying to defend your position.
You would agree that the RD15LPR has a more robust and better engineered joint between the handguard and upper receiver, but that doesn't result an additional rigidity? See how that sounds? Illogical.
You don't have an opinion because you don't have a Ridgeline LPR, but you do have an opinion that the Ridgeline LPR can't have less flex than a Seekins?
Who's more likely to be exaggerating or willfully choosing an unsupported narrative? The guy who owns both guns and appreciates them both? Or the guy who only owns one and thinks it's the best thing in the world?
He’s a senior citizen fudd with a Seekins rifle and a cop fetish
Fyi
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I did say it. And I stand by it. I never said I didn't. That's you trying to thread the needle of logic. I think it is way more rigid. But I'm willing to forego that point and get you to more robust and better designed to pull you into your logic contradiction.
Welp. This is awkward.
I'm shooting a club match tomorrow with the SP-10. It's off-season and a good opportunity to experiment. I have two second place finishes at this match this year so I figured it would be a good match to see if I can get a highly tuned suppressed gas gun through a PRS match without choking. Good proving ground for the SP10. Previously I had a Hawkins Updraft brake on the rifle but I swapped it for Scythe-Ti with a Recoil X G2 brake. So I had to swap out the gas plugs in the gas block. The unsuppressed port was .086" and the suppressed gas plug is drilled to .067". 24" barrel, +2 gas with a JP SCS using 2 tungsten buffers and one steel buffer.
When I put the suppressor on, it was of course over gassed with the .086" port. The bolt was out running mag. So I installed a .075" plug. It was better but still over gassed and caused two malfunctions by running the bolt too fast. I shot this target to zero the suppressor. I forgot the specific hex bit for the Schmidt PMII set screws so I couldn't zero the gun because the zero stop bottomed out at .5mil high. I shot a prone group (low right) and the impact was .5mrad high. I had a jam because the gun was over gassed still with the.075" gas plug so I put the round that jammed aside and just shot a 4rd group. The bullet had jammed back into the case. Then I shot a 4rd group kneeling off a bag and it wasn't .5mrad high
. (Center low) I had another malfunction in that 5rd mag and set that jacked up cartridge aside. Also jammed the bullet back in the case. Then I loaded the two jacked up rounds and shot them kneeling off the bag(middle left). I didn't think too much about the positional zero shift because I wasn't able to slip the turret to zero the scope and the gun was over gassed. I was more worried about slipping the zero stop and getting the right gas plug.
So I went home and put a .067" plug in the gas block, slipped the zero stop, and loaded 15 more rounds. That's this target. I shot them in the prone and came up .1mrad on the turret and just locked it. Gun was gassed perfectly for the suppressor now.
So today I went to the range with the intent to shoot two 5rd groups kneeling off a barricade and bag. Shoulda been a simple positional zero confirm. But it wasn't. First 5rd group kneeling, barricade/ bag was .4mrad low. (Top left). So I shot modified prone off a concrete bench. POI .1mrad low. (Top right). So I came up .1 and shot a 5rd group modified prone, bipod slid all the way back to just in front of the magwell. .3mrad low.
So I whipped out a backup gun. A TL3 bedded into an AI AICS ATX chassis with a Krieger .223 Wylde barrel, TBAC U9 suppressor, 77gr AA53. And shot three 3rd groups: modified prone/ far bipod, modified prone/ near bipod, kneeling barricade/ bag using the same positional technique as I did with the gas gun.
It ain't me.
I had only shot one positional test with the SP-10 before and it really looked like it didn't have a shift. This was back in May or something.
As all this was developing at the range this afternoon I knew the gnashing of teeth and denial that would occur on this thread.
So enjoy boys!
I'm shooting a club match tomorrow with the SP-10. It's off-season and a good opportunity to experiment. I have two second place finishes at this match this year so I figured it would be a good match to see if I can get a highly tuned suppressed gas gun through a PRS match without choking. Good proving ground for the SP10. Previously I had a Hawkins Updraft brake on the rifle but I swapped it for Scythe-Ti with a Recoil X G2 brake. So I had to swap out the gas plugs in the gas block. The unsuppressed port was .086" and the suppressed gas plug is drilled to .067". 24" barrel, +2 gas with a JP SCS using 2 tungsten buffers and one steel buffer.
When I put the suppressor on, it was of course over gassed with the .086" port. The bolt was out running mag. So I installed a .075" plug. It was better but still over gassed and caused two malfunctions by running the bolt too fast. I shot this target to zero the suppressor. I forgot the specific hex bit for the Schmidt PMII set screws so I couldn't zero the gun because the zero stop bottomed out at .5mil high. I shot a prone group (low right) and the impact was .5mrad high. I had a jam because the gun was over gassed still with the.075" gas plug so I put the round that jammed aside and just shot a 4rd group. The bullet had jammed back into the case. Then I shot a 4rd group kneeling off a bag and it wasn't .5mrad high
. (Center low) I had another malfunction in that 5rd mag and set that jacked up cartridge aside. Also jammed the bullet back in the case. Then I loaded the two jacked up rounds and shot them kneeling off the bag(middle left). I didn't think too much about the positional zero shift because I wasn't able to slip the turret to zero the scope and the gun was over gassed. I was more worried about slipping the zero stop and getting the right gas plug. So I went home and put a .067" plug in the gas block, slipped the zero stop, and loaded 15 more rounds. That's this target. I shot them in the prone and came up .1mrad on the turret and just locked it. Gun was gassed perfectly for the suppressor now.
So today I went to the range with the intent to shoot two 5rd groups kneeling off a barricade and bag. Shoulda been a simple positional zero confirm. But it wasn't. First 5rd group kneeling, barricade/ bag was .4mrad low. (Top left). So I shot modified prone off a concrete bench. POI .1mrad low. (Top right). So I came up .1 and shot a 5rd group modified prone, bipod slid all the way back to just in front of the magwell. .3mrad low.
So I whipped out a backup gun. A TL3 bedded into an AI AICS ATX chassis with a Krieger .223 Wylde barrel, TBAC U9 suppressor, 77gr AA53. And shot three 3rd groups: modified prone/ far bipod, modified prone/ near bipod, kneeling barricade/ bag using the same positional technique as I did with the gas gun.
It ain't me.
I had only shot one positional test with the SP-10 before and it really looked like it didn't have a shift. This was back in May or something.
As all this was developing at the range this afternoon I knew the gnashing of teeth and denial that would occur on this thread.
So enjoy boys!
Attachments
It’s flexing on you. Call Glen, he’ll sort it out.Welp. This is awkward.
I'm shooting a club match tomorrow with the SP-10. It's off-season and a good opportunity to experiment. I have two second place finishes at this match this year so I figured it would be a good match to see if I can get a highly tuned suppressed gas gun through a PRS match without choking. Good proving ground for the SP10. Previously I had a Hawkins Updraft brake on the rifle but I swapped it for Scythe-Ti with a Recoil X G2 brake. So I had to swap out the gas plugs in the gas block. The unsuppressed port was .086" and the suppressed gas plug is drilled to .067". 24" barrel, +2 gas with a JP SCS using 2 tungsten buffers and one steel buffer.
When I put the suppressor on, it was of course over gassed with the .086" port. The bolt was out running mag. So I installed a .075" plug. It was better but still over gassed and caused two malfunctions by running the bolt too fast. I shot this target to zero the suppressor. I forgot the specific hex bit for the Schmidt PMII set screws so I couldn't zero the gun because the zero stop bottomed out at .5mil high. I shot a prone group (low right) and the impact was .5mrad high. I had a jam because the gun was over gassed still with the.075" gas plug so I put the round that jammed aside and just shot a 4rd group. The bullet had jammed back into the case. Then I shot a 4rd group kneeling off a bag and it wasn't .5mrad high
View attachment 8793947
So I went home and put a .067" plug in the gas block, slipped the zero stop, and loaded 15 more rounds. That's this target. I shot them in the prone and came up .1mrad on the turret and just locked it. Gun was gassed perfectly for the suppressor now.
View attachment 8793950
So today I went to the range with the intent to shoot two 5rd groups kneeling off a barricade and bag. Shoulda been a simple positional zero confirm. But it wasn't. First 5rd group kneeling, barricade/ bag was .4mrad low. (Top left). So I shot modified prone off a concrete bench. POI .1mrad low. (Top right). So I came up .1 and shot a 5rd group modified prone, bipod slid all the way back to just in front of the magwell. .3mrad low.
View attachment 8793951
So I whipped out a backup gun. A TL3 bedded into an AI AICS ATX chassis with a Krieger .223 Wylde barrel, TBAC U9 suppressor, 77gr AA53. And shot three 3rd groups: modified prone/ far bipod, modified prone/ near bipod, kneeling barricade/ bag using the same positional technique as I did with the gas gun.
View attachment 8793952
It ain't me.
I had only shot one positional test with the SP-10 before and it really looked like it didn't have a shift. This was back in May or something. View attachment 8793955
As all this was developing at the range this afternoon I knew the gnashing of teeth and denial that would occur on this thread.
So enjoy boys!
JK. Good luck with the match.
Might actually be leaving some rigidity on the table somewhereIt’s flexing on you. Call Glen, he’ll sort it out.
JK. Good luck with the match.
I need to figure out why I got two different results from April versus October.I’m sure you’re a much better shooter than me. It’s a hobby for me. IMHO there’s so many variables, shooter positions, etc, that it’s hard to dial down what’s causing the fliers. Not impossible I guess and definitely pertinent for competitive shooters.Might actually be leaving some rigidity on the table somewhere
I'm semi-obsessed with the ability to shoot the same zero from any position. I think this is a key skill for a proficient shooter. The beauty of bolt guns is you can focus on yourself as the variable. The challenge of the gas gun is two-fold. It exaggerates your positionally induced zero shifts from the shooter, and it has a mechanical design induced zero shift as well. Competition is the reptile aquarium where you get to test your ability to apply your research. You know all this, but this is what makes shooting interesting to me. I'm a decent pistol shooter but it's so simple that the differences between a really good shooter and a really, really good shooter is tenths of seconds and that just becomes tedium to me. There's no real advancement going on in that space. But I think several manufacturers are on the prepipice of advancing the AR platform in a significant way. So it's all interesting and engaging.
Right on. I hope you know, I’m not personally attacking you in a development thread. Butt Sniper, or whatever he goes by this time around, is a troll and minimally contributes anything positive to this site. Hence his multiple bans and varying account handles. I got on here just a few years ago to learn and grow. I’ve been on here long enough to banter and call out what I think is BS. Doesn’t make it gospel but it’s what helps further the same goals we, most of us, have in common IMO. I don’t want to let losers like that sidetrack what’s important. Ultimately, most of the content is important and useful outside the PIT lol.
You’re clearly a serious shooter and competitive. I post the good with the bad throughout my load development. It is what is. I have no shame it that. Hopefully it helps someone. That’s what brings me happiness. The rest is all the BS in between. I love this sport.
Rigidity Matters: Testing Popular Rails to Find Zero Retention for IR Lasers
For those who use a rail-mounted front sight or a visible/IR laser attached to a rail, rigidity and return to zero play a huge factor in getting accurate shot placement downrange.
gunsamerica.com
Interesting read: the GunsAmerica piece on rail rigidity measures flex and actually puts some numbers behind common systems, including Seekins. Was taking a quick look at the new DD SPR iii but im not going to spend more $ to get a less efficient system.
To be clear, my intent with this thread isn’t to debate laser mounting or just avoid a “bendy-boy” rail, it’s exactly what @JR1200W3 brought up: positional POI shift. I’m building a comp rifle and my goal is to minimize any positional shift.
If Ridgeline had their kits in stock I’d probably try one just to test it out.. but they’re not available right now (kits or rifles).
This is a good read. Thanks.Rigidity Matters: Testing Popular Rails to Find Zero Retention for IR Lasers
For those who use a rail-mounted front sight or a visible/IR laser attached to a rail, rigidity and return to zero play a huge factor in getting accurate shot placement downrange.
Interesting read: the GunsAmerica piece on rail rigidity measures flex and actually puts some numbers behind common systems, including Seekins. Was taking a quick look at the new DD SPR iii but im not going to spend more $ to get a less efficient system.
I have a few issues with it though.
There are multiple points of contact between the upper and lower, specifically take down pins (which sometimes are plastic), that could be responsible for shift.
His mounting station is wood and plastic and has a half ass deck screw holding the main block in place. I’ll just stop there on all that.
He misspelled the acronym for Monolithic Rail Platform. If you can’t bother to proof read accurately for an article you’re publishing, I’m questioning your methods during researching.
All that being said. Good for him for making an effort. I just use common sense IMO. As I’ve stated, I have to beat the rail onto the receiver with a mallet and then I Locktite 12 hex screws in place. Sorry but I’m blaming everything else, including the tooth fairly, before I’ll believe this upper joint connection causes any discernible or significant POI shift.
IMO, you’d have to have the upper receiver welded to a solid, heavy base to create only one potential point of flex for this experiment to acceptable.
I’d probably include more than one true monolithic upper as well to better the power of the experiment.
Despite all these other variables, the fact that the Seekins iRMT did so well is still a good indicator.
does laser-on-rail-poa-shift = bullet-on-paper-poi-shift?
I’m think maybe, maybe not. Could be two separate things.
I’m think maybe, maybe not. Could be two separate things.
That would go system to system. I have a flex Wilson rail on a 6.5 Creedmoor that does not change impact, but I epoxied barrel to receiver and tightened crap out of barrel nut.
If you bed bond barrel to receiver this should remove a bunch of the flex in the joint
If you bed bond barrel to receiver this should remove a bunch of the flex in the joint
For all the benefits of the rigidity of the Seekins rail attachment, I was pretty disappointed in the slop between the upper and lower. I have the exact opposite issue with the Ridgeline upper that I can only get 1 of my lowers to fit.
I get that it’s not a major factor for pure mechanical accuracy but it is a major influence on the human interface with the rifle.
I get that it’s not a major factor for pure mechanical accuracy but it is a major influence on the human interface with the rifle.
