What in the actual fuck?
- Thread starter Steelshooter842
- Start date
What in the actual fuck?
Do you use a hose to blow smoke up your own ass or blow it into your buddies mouth first?
I am a not so new to shooting (25 years or so) but definitely a goddamn neophyte at reloading ammo (3 months or so).
My 7PRC bartlein barrel that shot 0.65" 100 yard groups with 180 gr Hornady match ammo now shoots 0.406" with my disastrous, inaccurate as fuck load development. I swear, the only thing i got right was the powder charge. My CBTO measurements, case prep etc. was all over the place.
Even my half-assed attempt at reloading proved to be a MASSIVE leap in accuracy.
TLDR: What in the actual fuck indeed.......
My 7PRC bartlein barrel that shot 0.65" 100 yard groups with 180 gr Hornady match ammo now shoots 0.406" with my disastrous, inaccurate as fuck load development. I swear, the only thing i got right was the powder charge. My CBTO measurements, case prep etc. was all over the place.
Even my half-assed attempt at reloading proved to be a MASSIVE leap in accuracy.
TLDR: What in the actual fuck indeed.......
There is a big difference between wanting a accurate rifle and shooting at unreasonable distances.
The original purpose of the post is with load development has anyone ever been able to improve accuracy to sub moa of a rifle that shot really bad with run of the mill factory ammo. The thread evolved into some childish BS which is unfortunate. Did get some decent responses that did influence me to proceed. I do apologize as my writing skills are not great and I may have influenced some of you into wild assumptions.
The original purpose of the post is with load development has anyone ever been able to improve accuracy to sub moa of a rifle that shot really bad with run of the mill factory ammo. The thread evolved into some childish BS which is unfortunate. Did get some decent responses that did influence me to proceed. I do apologize as my writing skills are not great and I may have influenced some of you into wild assumptions.
What exactly is run-of-the-mill with a .280 AI?
At the outset, you have to realize that some info about barrel twist would have helped too on your original post? A marginally stable round at 100 yards could wreak havoc on groups at 500.
At the outset, you have to realize that some info about barrel twist would have helped too on your original post? A marginally stable round at 100 yards could wreak havoc on groups at 500.
What varieties of factory ammo have you tried?
Literally every animal in the woods right now worried about getting its leg blown off
I did not read all the replies. I will not pile on.
I will say that load development is not the key to success. That is how you get from 7” groups to 3.5” groups at 500 yards. Micro issue. You have a macro issue. Bad shooter, bad scope, bad barrel, mismatched bullet to barrel twist.
The key is to isolate macro sized variables.
I will say that load development is not the key to success. That is how you get from 7” groups to 3.5” groups at 500 yards. Micro issue. You have a macro issue. Bad shooter, bad scope, bad barrel, mismatched bullet to barrel twist.
The key is to isolate macro sized variables.
Give “Unkown Munitions” a call and have them putogether a couple loads for you. they don’t need your rifle to do it either. They have great shooting loads for just about every caliber out there.
If they don’t shoot then it’s probably you. If they do, you’ll have the recipe.
I’ve not read everything but feel I tried helping with the bullet stability aspect and weight bullet.. but more direct in answering your “have you had success” in load development question… YES there are many variables that could go wrong in putting a rifle together. I do find it odd that you say you put the barrel on yourself yet ask the question of load development.. seems if you have the ability … whatever
My biggest uplift in loading, is for a .300 WSM I had built on a 700 action. Factory ammo was shit… ALL of it… not accurate, super hard extractions, seemed to have pressure signs.. When I started to load for it and using my typical process I found the chamber is out of spec and rounds are being loaded .20 outside saami COAL
Has the throat of a Chinese whore.. pro is, I can load really heavy rounds and it’s a <.5” rifle at 110 meters. Con is the lapua hammers are the only thing I can load and my mag box work. So yes it could for sure be the load sounds more like a bullet stability problem..
What in the actual fuck?
Not because I really wanted to know, just because it needed to be said at least one more time in this thread.
There is an important detail everyone is alluding to but I see no evidence of by the OP: if you are reloading for accuracy you must catalog and record everything. If you have stumbled upon a load that seems to work but don’t keep records you don’t have a baseline to work from. OP, if you had that data it would seriously help you out. I’m not talking about just the targets and load. I mean seating depths, brass and powder brand and lots, all of it. You are essentially manufacturing custom ammo for your particular rifle so it matters. This is important even if there are other issues such as loose screws, parallax, etc.
Once you find an acceptable load you need to be shooting several groups at 100 to check for consistency, then move out to increasing distances. And log the results. I can tell you random loading and expecting amazing results is going to be incredibly frustrating. There is dedication and time to get what you want that cannot be sidestepped.
Once you find an acceptable load you need to be shooting several groups at 100 to check for consistency, then move out to increasing distances. And log the results. I can tell you random loading and expecting amazing results is going to be incredibly frustrating. There is dedication and time to get what you want that cannot be sidestepped.
Sir, you mount a scope, pour powder in the case till full, crush the bullet into the case and you are ready to go hunting 500 yards plus. In fact back up at least 500 yards before shooting at game.
What's even scarier than them letting these people own guns, is they get a vote that is equal to yours.
Gonna throw MY $0.02 worth of advice on original post . VERIFY at #50 -100 & 200 Yd. before going sniping at 500 yd. ,you'll learn so much more about your weapon than any nonsense yardage .
There is a difference between stating the facts in an helpful manor and piling on.
How’s the view from your mom’s basement?
This thread is fudd boomer approved... Did we ever establish how many bow kills @Steelshooter842 has ? Max bench press or a 20 year stint in concrete?
Op what scope you runnin
Op what scope you runnin
It seems that you are making serious judgment calls on one 3-shot group?
I am already suspicious as hell of even top competitive shooters that do ladder tests searching for nodes, wondering if they could go out on another day with the exact same loads and get the same results.
You have a rifle that while shooting from a bench in good conditions is the most finicky and picky rifle you have ever owned.
You think you have found the one magic load without duplicating it a few times at 100yds?
You are going to take the most finicky and picky rifle you have ever owned to an altitude that is possibly a few thousand feet higher elevation than you are currently, in crazy temperature fluctuations and crazy humidity fluctuations and expect it to deliver on demand at a third of a mile on a 700lb bull while you are physically stressed from the terrain and altitude?
You have shot F-class from bench or prone according to your posts.
Have you been working on your unsupported positional shooting with this hunting weight rifle? It is going to be 3 x less forgiving to poor shooter input than your F-class rifle.
Have you been working on your shooting positions over logs and back packs?
Been doing any of this after a quick 100yd trot to get your pulse up?
You need to work on your gun handling just as much as your gun/ammo combo.
Even if you are able to get consistent accuracy out of your rifle at 100yds, I will almost put money on you struggling to deliver a shot on demand within twice or three times that group size in the field even in a zero condition wind.
Don't rush your hunt if you or your equipment is not up to the task.
You owe that to the animal.
.
Did I read 1/9 twist 280AI w/ 145 grain Barnes. You assembled a new chambered barrel onto the rifle?
?Loaoad development?
Load development should go back to 100 and redefine what shoots and what doesn't.
I don't know anything about 280AI, but there's a gazillion variables on the table..
?Loaoad development?
Load development should go back to 100 and redefine what shoots and what doesn't.
I don't know anything about 280AI, but there's a gazillion variables on the table..
Seriously? I'm not a competitive shooter. I shoot long range a couple times a week starting towards the end of July through Sept every year regardless of the wind. Red circle, 2023 elk center mass 654 yds. Middle pic 2022 elk center mass 524 yds. Far right pic 2021 - exit wound center mass 867 yds. I have a pile of deer pics shot from similar ranges all center of mass. Spend the time, make the shot...
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I think this is Haney's troll account. So like a double troll.
Inspect all of your mating surfaces between the receiver, recoil lug, barrel. A cheap and simple way to do this is smoke soot from a candle or smoke lamp. Transfer soot to both faces of the recoil lug, carefully assemble, gently hand tighten, just bump the two together a couple of times.
Disassemble.
Inspect to see that the shoulder of the barrel and the face of the recoil lug are in contact the full circumference of the barrel shoulder with the recoil lug.
Ensure that the barrel shoulder and recoil lug are not getting hung up in the corner between the barrel shoulder and barrel threads and also the corner of the recoil lug at the thread diameter.
You want your pre-fit pulling on, on the faces of all the mating surfaces, not in the corner.
Not having this one detail correct will cause accuracy issues.
Assuming your optic is good and all else is correct you want the optic and the barrel looking at the exact same spot before, during and after each shot. Precision fitting of critical mating surfaces makes this happen. It's not magic, it's basic accurate mechanics.
Next, smoke up the mating surfaces of the bolt locking lugs, insert the bolt, close it into battery, remove and inspect contact. Contact should be even on both lugs and each should have at least 75% in contact, more is better, correct it if necessary. Information on how to correct this is commonly known and simple to do.
Next, look into your go gauge dimension vs your brass dimension, do this with the barrel removed and use a quality depth mic. Check this across a number of virgin never fired cases, say 10 or so, see what the average head space is, brass vs gage. knowing this number allows you to run on a less tolerance headspace, alterations to the recoil lug thickness may be required, this can be accomplished with a surface grinder if required.
At the same time, use a bore scope to see that the throat is evenly cut all the way around, the lead (leed) needs to be engaging the bullet uniformly on the circumference, not lop sided. A perfectly cut throat/lead is very important and is a function of land vs reamer pilot dimension and reamer condition. That is a production barrel. A lop sided throat can be recut with a throating reamer so it is uniform, doing this will effect your seating depth.
Wringing out all the little mechanical details will allow you to see the true potential of the barrel.
Just because it's a pre-fit doesn't necessarily mean it fits correctly.
Finally, it's not THAT it's put together, it's HOW it's put together that makes all the difference. Assume nothing.
Disassemble.
Inspect to see that the shoulder of the barrel and the face of the recoil lug are in contact the full circumference of the barrel shoulder with the recoil lug.
Ensure that the barrel shoulder and recoil lug are not getting hung up in the corner between the barrel shoulder and barrel threads and also the corner of the recoil lug at the thread diameter.
You want your pre-fit pulling on, on the faces of all the mating surfaces, not in the corner.
Not having this one detail correct will cause accuracy issues.
Assuming your optic is good and all else is correct you want the optic and the barrel looking at the exact same spot before, during and after each shot. Precision fitting of critical mating surfaces makes this happen. It's not magic, it's basic accurate mechanics.
Next, smoke up the mating surfaces of the bolt locking lugs, insert the bolt, close it into battery, remove and inspect contact. Contact should be even on both lugs and each should have at least 75% in contact, more is better, correct it if necessary. Information on how to correct this is commonly known and simple to do.
Next, look into your go gauge dimension vs your brass dimension, do this with the barrel removed and use a quality depth mic. Check this across a number of virgin never fired cases, say 10 or so, see what the average head space is, brass vs gage. knowing this number allows you to run on a less tolerance headspace, alterations to the recoil lug thickness may be required, this can be accomplished with a surface grinder if required.
At the same time, use a bore scope to see that the throat is evenly cut all the way around, the lead (leed) needs to be engaging the bullet uniformly on the circumference, not lop sided. A perfectly cut throat/lead is very important and is a function of land vs reamer pilot dimension and reamer condition. That is a production barrel. A lop sided throat can be recut with a throating reamer so it is uniform, doing this will effect your seating depth.
Wringing out all the little mechanical details will allow you to see the true potential of the barrel.
Just because it's a pre-fit doesn't necessarily mean it fits correctly.
Finally, it's not THAT it's put together, it's HOW it's put together that makes all the difference. Assume nothing.
great response. I'm printing it out and studying. Thank you
I have an honest question for you, more than anything because I am confused. I'm not looking to bash here, just extra info because it seems like you may be wanting to make the rifle and load do more than you think is necessary. How do these two statements you made correlate?
Why do you want a 500 yard capable gun if you think that over 400 yards is a dicey shot? Also, the second quote seems to suggest that you are intending to use the first shot as a sighter. On an elk. Is that what you meant?
Why do you want a 500 yard capable gun if you think that over 400 yards is a dicey shot? Also, the second quote seems to suggest that you are intending to use the first shot as a sighter. On an elk. Is that what you meant?
He is either trolling or a tard.......It's really a coin toss at this point.
Well, that's just mean. I know some good concrete workers.
No skin in this game. However, I always appreciate accuracy. For hunting, I really need it tight in the first 3 shots, not the first 10, 20, 100, whatever.
If it is shooting no more than 1 MOA, preferrably less, I am still not going to shoot an animal long range.
My 7 PRC using the Precision Hunter 175 gr ELD-X, still has over 2k fps at 750 yards. I am not going to shoot an animal that far. My comfort range is to at least 300 yards. Maybe 400. So, why would I shoot that gun? Because it is very accurate. I will send the bullet where I want it to go. And that is important at 50 yards, 100 yards, 300 yards.
Where I hunt on public lands, the longest clear shot I have ranged is 250 yards.
Always shoot supported. Since I hunt on public land, there is a slim chance that I may take a offhand shot. So, I practice that. There is always waver. So, the best option for me, so far, is to start with the muzzle a little high and let it drop naturally and squeeze the shot with timing. And no farther than 50 yards.
Or, just let it go and wait for a better shot. The idea is to bring the animal down.
If it is shooting no more than 1 MOA, preferrably less, I am still not going to shoot an animal long range.
My 7 PRC using the Precision Hunter 175 gr ELD-X, still has over 2k fps at 750 yards. I am not going to shoot an animal that far. My comfort range is to at least 300 yards. Maybe 400. So, why would I shoot that gun? Because it is very accurate. I will send the bullet where I want it to go. And that is important at 50 yards, 100 yards, 300 yards.
Where I hunt on public lands, the longest clear shot I have ranged is 250 yards.
Always shoot supported. Since I hunt on public land, there is a slim chance that I may take a offhand shot. So, I practice that. There is always waver. So, the best option for me, so far, is to start with the muzzle a little high and let it drop naturally and squeeze the shot with timing. And no farther than 50 yards.
Or, just let it go and wait for a better shot. The idea is to bring the animal down.
Well this has certainly taken an interesting turn. Good luck with your tomato stake Elmer.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,645
- 17,543
The higher round was shot 5 if I remember. Was having issues with donuts in the neck from my Redding bushing dies. I sorted out the rounds that chambered good vs the ones that had some effort closing the bolt. At the time I didn’t realize a donut was my issue
That round is the one that closed harder on the donut. The speed was slightly higher as well. They still shot good.
I shot a 198 and 195 with the good stuff at 1,000. When wind picked up in 3rd relay I went to my tight ammo. Didn’t have enough good stuff to shoot the full 20 plus sighters and didn’t want to switch mid string. Ended up with a 189 or 192 on that one. Vertical was an issue with those
The whole reason behind this group was to test the difference between the two. I shot this a couple days before the match
This was 6.5-284 necked up and turned
And back to the problems of accuracy.
The highest percentage of error is the shooter. And I have been there, myself. Pulled a shot. Crappy follow through. Failure to change my focus to reticle from the target. Failure to address the finger pad on the trigger correctly. Failure to physically reset myself to the same position as before.
Second problem is ammo. The better stuff costs more but the consistency is there, all things considered.
Last problem is the rifle, though it can actually be the problem. Of that, most times, it is not the barreled action, it is screws mounting rings and rails. Not torqued correctly. Scope rings, themselves.
Action screws. Check them before you fire a single shot. Because this gets into problems of bedding. Either glass bed the factory stock or change to a better stock or chassis. This is my biggest problem with the Mossberg Patriot and Predator rifles. The barreled actions perform well enough and could certainly serve for deer hunting. The problem is the stock, especially the synthetic stock, the lightest of them all. The mag well is a removable piece that acts like a shim. But that can also allow movement. The biggest problem is the rear action screw guide. There is a gap and it is intentionally made that way. And Mossberg or the company that makes the stocks will not change that. It is fixable and they will not fix that.
The TC Compass II synthetic stock performs way better with a separate recoil lug and, most importantly, aluminum pillar bedding. And they were a few dollars cheaper than Mossberg. So, the best option is to simply know that you are going to change to another stock or chassis.
TLDR: cry once, pay once. Either spend more money fixing this or spend more money on a better rifle. Here is how good I am at gunsmithing - I by completely assembled rifles.
The highest percentage of error is the shooter. And I have been there, myself. Pulled a shot. Crappy follow through. Failure to change my focus to reticle from the target. Failure to address the finger pad on the trigger correctly. Failure to physically reset myself to the same position as before.
Second problem is ammo. The better stuff costs more but the consistency is there, all things considered.
Last problem is the rifle, though it can actually be the problem. Of that, most times, it is not the barreled action, it is screws mounting rings and rails. Not torqued correctly. Scope rings, themselves.
Action screws. Check them before you fire a single shot. Because this gets into problems of bedding. Either glass bed the factory stock or change to a better stock or chassis. This is my biggest problem with the Mossberg Patriot and Predator rifles. The barreled actions perform well enough and could certainly serve for deer hunting. The problem is the stock, especially the synthetic stock, the lightest of them all. The mag well is a removable piece that acts like a shim. But that can also allow movement. The biggest problem is the rear action screw guide. There is a gap and it is intentionally made that way. And Mossberg or the company that makes the stocks will not change that. It is fixable and they will not fix that.
The TC Compass II synthetic stock performs way better with a separate recoil lug and, most importantly, aluminum pillar bedding. And they were a few dollars cheaper than Mossberg. So, the best option is to simply know that you are going to change to another stock or chassis.
TLDR: cry once, pay once. Either spend more money fixing this or spend more money on a better rifle. Here is how good I am at gunsmithing - I by completely assembled rifles.
Just wounded 4 or 5 so far.....
If you shoot them in the leg then you won't waste the meat, that's a tip from Randy Ford.Just wounded 4 or 5 so far.....
Or Elmer Keith who could rump shoot a moose at less than 100 yards. And yet complain that his bullet was not opening enough. (Yes, I did read his book. Many times, I thought, how about being more precise in shooting?).
There's a lot of really interesting rifle/cartridge design based around the premise of being able to take any shot offered at any distance you can get metal (somewhere) on the meat. A lot of guys talk a big game about hunting ethics, but as soon as the choice comes down to tag soup or a marginal shot that might not be within the capability of rifle/shooter...
Quite true.
