Re: Rotation of the Earth?
I thought all of this was covered in the SpinD video?
- Loud
I thought all of this was covered in the SpinD video?
- Loud
- Thread starter mram10
- Start date
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two guys I always listen to are"Bryan Litz and Augustus" Whilst I understand Lowlights position I think there is little excuse for not accounting for all effects that are present and can help cause a potential miss - of course you may still miss because of wind or bad form but the less negatives the better .My ballistics calculator allows for the effects and I use those tools for them -why wouldn't I ??
MoonShadow -have you ever considered you might be mentally retarded </div></div>
Ch'e, your actually asking me this? By any chance, did you review what you wrote? Hope you decide on the Dragonov ch'e, they are good rifle's.
Take care,
MS
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two guys I always listen to are"Bryan Litz and Augustus" Whilst I understand Lowlights position I think there is little excuse for not accounting for all effects that are present and can help cause a potential miss - of course you may still miss because of wind or bad form but the less negatives the better .My ballistics calculator allows for the effects and I use those tools for them -why wouldn't I ??
MoonShadow -have you ever considered you might be mentally retarded </div></div>
Ch'e, your actually asking me this? By any chance, did you review what you wrote? Hope you decide on the Dragonov ch'e, they are good rifle's.
Take care,
MS
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Just kinda currious if Lindy is monitoring this.
......SmokeRolls
Just kinda currious if Lindy is monitoring this.
......SmokeRolls
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
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Misses could be coriolis, or wind, or form, or a lack of SpinD...
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Misses could be coriolis, or wind, or form, or a lack of SpinD...
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two guys I always listen to are"Bryan Litz and Augustus" Whilst I understand Lowlights position I think there is little excuse for not accounting for all effects that are present and can help cause a potential miss - of course you may still miss because of wind or bad form but the less negatives the better .My ballistics calculator allows for the effects and I use those tools for them -why wouldn't I ??
MoonShadow -have you ever considered you might be mentally retarded </div></div>
Ch'e, your actually asking me this? By any chance, did you review what you wrote? Hope you decide on the Dragonov ch'e, they are good rifle's.
Take care,
MS </div></div>
Moonshadow , yes I did read what I wrote and stand by what I said.Litz is outstandingly smart and not only that he is one of the USA top target shooters - he accounts for things that can be accounted for ! If a breeze at 1500 changes and you dont pick it well that is one of those things you cant count on being exact and at best wind judging is a SWAG but the many other important variables can be accounted for .Just because your mate is a sniping instructor doesnt hold much water with me if he doesnt account for all the pieces in the puzzle .We all know even after you think you have accounted for every thing you can still miss -thats just a bitch but at LEAST you gave yourself the best opportunity .No offence in my calling you a -you know lol
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two guys I always listen to are"Bryan Litz and Augustus" Whilst I understand Lowlights position I think there is little excuse for not accounting for all effects that are present and can help cause a potential miss - of course you may still miss because of wind or bad form but the less negatives the better .My ballistics calculator allows for the effects and I use those tools for them -why wouldn't I ??
MoonShadow -have you ever considered you might be mentally retarded </div></div>
Ch'e, your actually asking me this? By any chance, did you review what you wrote? Hope you decide on the Dragonov ch'e, they are good rifle's.
Take care,
MS </div></div>
Moonshadow , yes I did read what I wrote and stand by what I said.Litz is outstandingly smart and not only that he is one of the USA top target shooters - he accounts for things that can be accounted for ! If a breeze at 1500 changes and you dont pick it well that is one of those things you cant count on being exact and at best wind judging is a SWAG but the many other important variables can be accounted for .Just because your mate is a sniping instructor doesnt hold much water with me if he doesnt account for all the pieces in the puzzle .We all know even after you think you have accounted for every thing you can still miss -thats just a bitch but at LEAST you gave yourself the best opportunity .No offence in my calling you a -you know lol
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Brian is extremely smart, but he accounts for everything but the shooter... as well he is assuming the barrel and the scope are 100% in line with each other with zero deviation, not only that but that the rifle is zeroed without shooter influence.
Deviation is angular, when you computer model it without the angular deviations from the shooter, and/or the rifle-scope combination you can say these variables are deterministic, however when you add the shooter into the equation, and you don't know where the barrel is actually pointing in relationship to the scope, all those variables change. Which is exactly why some can get away without all this while others feel it is absolutely necessary. It doesn't influence hit rate, is the bottom line, which should be the goal.
Adding a 10 thousands of inch to the back of a scope base will give you roughly 10 inches downrange at 100 yards. Imagine the deviation you can add in if the barrel and the scope are not inline especially at distance ?
Shooter Influence trumps all... you can't say it will work because you modeled it when you are not including the most important variables, scopes, rifles, ammunition & shooter. Assuming these things like consistent muzzle velocity is or even wind speed not practical for any real application.
We did a test, which I will post in its entirety, but the short story, at 100 yards with a mechanically zeroed rifle, <span style="font-weight: bold">the extreme spread between shooters from left to right was as much as 2.25" </span>. I have images, video and a complete report. We tested at 100, and at 300 yards with a large caliber rifle and the spread grows. So how can you say a sub moa adjustment is valid when a cross section of shooters can spread the group of a zeroed rifle across 2+" at 100... there is a variable. Forget the influence of 1 MPH, the influence of the shooter is huge in comparison.
And guess what Hand Shooter #4 uses to shoot with... all shot the same rifle with the same ammo, prior to any instruction. It was first rattle out of the box, and they were only asked to hold center and not chase their impacts while we watched.
Brian is extremely smart, but he accounts for everything but the shooter... as well he is assuming the barrel and the scope are 100% in line with each other with zero deviation, not only that but that the rifle is zeroed without shooter influence.
Deviation is angular, when you computer model it without the angular deviations from the shooter, and/or the rifle-scope combination you can say these variables are deterministic, however when you add the shooter into the equation, and you don't know where the barrel is actually pointing in relationship to the scope, all those variables change. Which is exactly why some can get away without all this while others feel it is absolutely necessary. It doesn't influence hit rate, is the bottom line, which should be the goal.
Adding a 10 thousands of inch to the back of a scope base will give you roughly 10 inches downrange at 100 yards. Imagine the deviation you can add in if the barrel and the scope are not inline especially at distance ?
Shooter Influence trumps all... you can't say it will work because you modeled it when you are not including the most important variables, scopes, rifles, ammunition & shooter. Assuming these things like consistent muzzle velocity is or even wind speed not practical for any real application.
We did a test, which I will post in its entirety, but the short story, at 100 yards with a mechanically zeroed rifle, <span style="font-weight: bold">the extreme spread between shooters from left to right was as much as 2.25" </span>. I have images, video and a complete report. We tested at 100, and at 300 yards with a large caliber rifle and the spread grows. So how can you say a sub moa adjustment is valid when a cross section of shooters can spread the group of a zeroed rifle across 2+" at 100... there is a variable. Forget the influence of 1 MPH, the influence of the shooter is huge in comparison.
And guess what Hand Shooter #4 uses to shoot with... all shot the same rifle with the same ammo, prior to any instruction. It was first rattle out of the box, and they were only asked to hold center and not chase their impacts while we watched.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
That is <span style="text-decoration: underline">very</span> interesting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And guess what Hand Shooter #4 uses to shoot with... all shot the same rifle with the same ammo, prior to any instruction. It was first rattle out of the box, and they were only asked to hold center and not chase their impacts while we watched.
</div></div>
That is <span style="text-decoration: underline">very</span> interesting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And guess what Hand Shooter #4 uses to shoot with... all shot the same rifle with the same ammo, prior to any instruction. It was first rattle out of the box, and they were only asked to hold center and not chase their impacts while we watched.
</div></div>
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just kinda currious if Lindy is monitoring this.</div></div>
I find it very amusing.
Sometime do an analysis of the effect of range error. With any reasonably sized target at 1000 yards, for example, with a .308, if you miscalculate the range by 25 yards, you won't hit the target.
Most commercial laser rangefinders are only accurate to about 1 percent. And then there are moving targets...
And you can calculate spin drift, coriolis, and eotvos effect, but if you slap the trigger, it won't matter.
And then there's the wind...
But, we have to do something to amuse ourselves, and this kind of mental masturbation is arguably better than watching televison.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just kinda currious if Lindy is monitoring this.</div></div>
I find it very amusing.
Sometime do an analysis of the effect of range error. With any reasonably sized target at 1000 yards, for example, with a .308, if you miscalculate the range by 25 yards, you won't hit the target.
Most commercial laser rangefinders are only accurate to about 1 percent. And then there are moving targets...
And you can calculate spin drift, coriolis, and eotvos effect, but if you slap the trigger, it won't matter.
And then there's the wind...
But, we have to do something to amuse ourselves, and this kind of mental masturbation is arguably better than watching televison.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brian is extremely smart, but he accounts for everything but the shooter... as well he is assuming the barrel and the scope are 100% in line with each other with zero deviation, not only that but that the rifle is zeroed without shooter influence.
Deviation is angular, when you computer model it without the angular deviations from the shooter, and/or the rifle-scope combination you can say these variables are deterministic, however when you add the shooter into the equation, and you don't know where the barrel is actually pointing in relationship to the scope, all those variables change. Which is exactly why some can get away without all this while others feel it is absolutely necessary. It doesn't influence hit rate, is the bottom line, which should be the goal.
Adding a 10 thousands of inch to the back of a scope base will give you roughly 10 inches downrange at 100 yards. Imagine the deviation you can add in if the barrel and the scope are not inline especially at distance ?
Shooter Influence trumps all... you can't say it will work because you modeled it when you are not including the most important variables, scopes, rifles, ammunition & shooter. Assuming these things like consistent muzzle velocity is or even wind speed not practical for any real application.
We did a test, which I will post in its entirety, but the short story, at 100 yards with a mechanically zeroed rifle, <span style="font-weight: bold">the extreme spread between shooters from left to right was as much as 2.25" </span>. I have images, video and a complete report. We tested at 100, and at 300 yards with a large caliber rifle and the spread grows. So how can you say a sub moa adjustment is valid when a cross section of shooters can spread the group of a zeroed rifle across 2+" at 100... there is a variable. Forget the influence of 1 MPH, the influence of the shooter is huge in comparison.
And guess what Hand Shooter #4 uses to shoot with... all shot the same rifle with the same ammo, prior to any instruction. It was first rattle out of the box, and they were only asked to hold center and not chase their impacts while we watched.
</div></div>
There are a few things I see clearly illustrated here, non of them revelations.
- Zero has to be refined to each individual. And that is the commonly accepted practice, except with fixed-sight weapons. Passing one rifle around between 11 shooters will always show these kind of deviations, to greater or lesser degree, no matter how much training in form they receive.
- Some shooters are better than others. That will never change.
- Shooters 1,3,6,10 have a good handle on consistency, but individual refinements to scope zero are needed. with a refined zero, an uncorrected known error of less than 1 moa (say .5-.9 moa) could easily make their hits into misses.
- The gross spread of groups from 11 shooters firing the same rifle with the same zero doesn't reveal anything about the relevance of correcting for CE, at ranges past 1500 yards or so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brian is extremely smart, but he accounts for everything but the shooter... as well he is assuming the barrel and the scope are 100% in line with each other with zero deviation, not only that but that the rifle is zeroed without shooter influence.
Deviation is angular, when you computer model it without the angular deviations from the shooter, and/or the rifle-scope combination you can say these variables are deterministic, however when you add the shooter into the equation, and you don't know where the barrel is actually pointing in relationship to the scope, all those variables change. Which is exactly why some can get away without all this while others feel it is absolutely necessary. It doesn't influence hit rate, is the bottom line, which should be the goal.
Adding a 10 thousands of inch to the back of a scope base will give you roughly 10 inches downrange at 100 yards. Imagine the deviation you can add in if the barrel and the scope are not inline especially at distance ?
Shooter Influence trumps all... you can't say it will work because you modeled it when you are not including the most important variables, scopes, rifles, ammunition & shooter. Assuming these things like consistent muzzle velocity is or even wind speed not practical for any real application.
We did a test, which I will post in its entirety, but the short story, at 100 yards with a mechanically zeroed rifle, <span style="font-weight: bold">the extreme spread between shooters from left to right was as much as 2.25" </span>. I have images, video and a complete report. We tested at 100, and at 300 yards with a large caliber rifle and the spread grows. So how can you say a sub moa adjustment is valid when a cross section of shooters can spread the group of a zeroed rifle across 2+" at 100... there is a variable. Forget the influence of 1 MPH, the influence of the shooter is huge in comparison.
And guess what Hand Shooter #4 uses to shoot with... all shot the same rifle with the same ammo, prior to any instruction. It was first rattle out of the box, and they were only asked to hold center and not chase their impacts while we watched.
</div></div>
There are a few things I see clearly illustrated here, non of them revelations.
- Zero has to be refined to each individual. And that is the commonly accepted practice, except with fixed-sight weapons. Passing one rifle around between 11 shooters will always show these kind of deviations, to greater or lesser degree, no matter how much training in form they receive.
- Some shooters are better than others. That will never change.
- Shooters 1,3,6,10 have a good handle on consistency, but individual refinements to scope zero are needed. with a refined zero, an uncorrected known error of less than 1 moa (say .5-.9 moa) could easily make their hits into misses.
- The gross spread of groups from 11 shooters firing the same rifle with the same zero doesn't reveal anything about the relevance of correcting for CE, at ranges past 1500 yards or so.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
While I agree that this condition is considered amusing to most of you on here and will never be a consequence to 99.9% of even the users on SH. It has in fact become ENOUGH of a variable that .1% of use need to understand it as it now has become a valid variable.
As many of you have read from Bryan's work at LR distance shooting (to 1000m's) it is of little to no real measurable consideration. Entering the ELR arena it is becoming a true measurable factor. However once you start into the ULR the increased flight times are now surpassing the six second mark and it has an impact change that correlates to misses in meters!
Now keep in mind that we are able to shoot truly man portable light weight weapons systems to these distances. We are talking about 338lm's not just some rogue 375/408's and people are seeing the results of true tests resulting in a variable that even the French found in the 1800's needed attention.
While I agree that this condition is considered amusing to most of you on here and will never be a consequence to 99.9% of even the users on SH. It has in fact become ENOUGH of a variable that .1% of use need to understand it as it now has become a valid variable.
As many of you have read from Bryan's work at LR distance shooting (to 1000m's) it is of little to no real measurable consideration. Entering the ELR arena it is becoming a true measurable factor. However once you start into the ULR the increased flight times are now surpassing the six second mark and it has an impact change that correlates to misses in meters!
Now keep in mind that we are able to shoot truly man portable light weight weapons systems to these distances. We are talking about 338lm's not just some rogue 375/408's and people are seeing the results of true tests resulting in a variable that even the French found in the 1800's needed attention.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Shooter influence is angular, there is no way to reduce the errors introduced especially at distance.
It shows why the math & science is not absolute despite the predictions. If it works for one it has to work for all, which it clearly does not. Adding a correction left for 1, 2, & 4, is potentially a miss.
As well without knowing where the barrel is pointing in relationship to the scope, you can' t begin to say where the center of you deviation is because each shooter introduces their influence to the zero.
Saying not all shooters are as good as others is quite relevant especially if their angular deflection is to the left of center. It negates the effects you are advocating, pushing them off target.
Shooter influence is angular, there is no way to reduce the errors introduced especially at distance.
It shows why the math & science is not absolute despite the predictions. If it works for one it has to work for all, which it clearly does not. Adding a correction left for 1, 2, & 4, is potentially a miss.
As well without knowing where the barrel is pointing in relationship to the scope, you can' t begin to say where the center of you deviation is because each shooter introduces their influence to the zero.
Saying not all shooters are as good as others is quite relevant especially if their angular deflection is to the left of center. It negates the effects you are advocating, pushing them off target.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
So let me get this straight.
You let a bunch of different people shoot the same rifle without letting them adjust the zero for themselves, and they all hit in different places?
Everyone knows that shooters have different ways of holding rifles that influence the POI, especially left handed vs right handed shooters. That's why everyone <span style="font-style: italic">zero's their own rifle</span>. When have you ever done any serious shooting without personally zeroing your own rifle first?
Imagine how irrelevant the details become if you <span style="font-style: italic">don't zero the rifle at all!</span> You could really illustrate the futility of making any effort whatsoever. Take off the scope and you can show that even bullet drop becomes an irrelevant detail.
Your test illustrates that if you don't zero your rifle, you don't hit your POI. That's pretty obvious. It certainly doesn't mean that no-one should waste their time thinking about coriolis. Some people actually zero their rifles. And use scope levels when shooting long range.
I could use your argument for not considering coriolis to argue against heavy barrels, quality ammo, solid scope rings, bi-pods, etc etc. I mean, as long as there's a 'bigger' problem (in your illustration, the shooter), just forget about the smaller problems, right?
Do you think that a gunsmith who builds a rifle capable of sub MOA is an overambitious fool just because 'some' shooters can't shoot that good? And apparently some don't even zero their own rifles anyway so what good would an accurate rifle be?
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or inflamitory, just pointing out that there are different points of view. I've caveated my statements with phrases like 'subtle detail', and 'application specific'. If some choose to ignore the caveates, then say: "don't ignore the caveats!". You caveat your own position with statements like 'only a small percentage of shooters/applications will see this subtlety'. That's a good caveat. Beyond that, I don't know why there seems to be a conflict. If its because people ignore caveats, make that the issue. Don't make it about right and wrong and use examples of un-zeroed rifles etc. We get it. Yours is not an application where coriolis is important enough to consider.
Now I have to admit something. On sunday I fly to Australia to compete with the US team in the Aussies national individual FULLBORE and team championships. Here in the northern hemisphere, my long range wind zero has about 3" of right drift 'dialed out' (coriolis effect). When I go down-under next week, there will be 3 or 4 inches of coriolis drift in the other direction, adding up to about 1/2 MOA to my no-wind zero. Now everyone knows how important it is to have your no-wind zero. <span style="font-style: italic">But I'm not going to move my wind zero to account for the 1/2 MOA</span>
Why?
Because there's a bigger picture.
Everyone on my TEAM will have the same POI shift for the same reason. When shooting in team matches where coaches are calling wind for several shooters at the same time, it's vitally important that the rifles are all in-sync. It's better if we're all off by exactly 1/2 MOA, than have one rifle thats out of sync, even if that one rifle is the only one with a true corrected no-wind zero.
The above illustrates a specific caveat that's been stated generally, which is: choosing to correct for these effects is situational, and application specific. It's always there, but it might not always be the 'right' choice to worry about it. My situation is one example, shooting a rifle that someone else zeroed is another example of a situation that you probably could ignore it.
If you don't have a level on your carefully zeroed rifle and shooting past 1000 yards at a well determined distance in relatively calm conditions, it's probably ok to ignore it, especially if you're trying to focus on learning more basic and fundamental skills or if you're in a time crunch.
-Bryan
So let me get this straight.
You let a bunch of different people shoot the same rifle without letting them adjust the zero for themselves, and they all hit in different places?
Everyone knows that shooters have different ways of holding rifles that influence the POI, especially left handed vs right handed shooters. That's why everyone <span style="font-style: italic">zero's their own rifle</span>. When have you ever done any serious shooting without personally zeroing your own rifle first?
Imagine how irrelevant the details become if you <span style="font-style: italic">don't zero the rifle at all!</span> You could really illustrate the futility of making any effort whatsoever. Take off the scope and you can show that even bullet drop becomes an irrelevant detail.
Your test illustrates that if you don't zero your rifle, you don't hit your POI. That's pretty obvious. It certainly doesn't mean that no-one should waste their time thinking about coriolis. Some people actually zero their rifles. And use scope levels when shooting long range.
I could use your argument for not considering coriolis to argue against heavy barrels, quality ammo, solid scope rings, bi-pods, etc etc. I mean, as long as there's a 'bigger' problem (in your illustration, the shooter), just forget about the smaller problems, right?
Do you think that a gunsmith who builds a rifle capable of sub MOA is an overambitious fool just because 'some' shooters can't shoot that good? And apparently some don't even zero their own rifles anyway so what good would an accurate rifle be?
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or inflamitory, just pointing out that there are different points of view. I've caveated my statements with phrases like 'subtle detail', and 'application specific'. If some choose to ignore the caveates, then say: "don't ignore the caveats!". You caveat your own position with statements like 'only a small percentage of shooters/applications will see this subtlety'. That's a good caveat. Beyond that, I don't know why there seems to be a conflict. If its because people ignore caveats, make that the issue. Don't make it about right and wrong and use examples of un-zeroed rifles etc. We get it. Yours is not an application where coriolis is important enough to consider.
Now I have to admit something. On sunday I fly to Australia to compete with the US team in the Aussies national individual FULLBORE and team championships. Here in the northern hemisphere, my long range wind zero has about 3" of right drift 'dialed out' (coriolis effect). When I go down-under next week, there will be 3 or 4 inches of coriolis drift in the other direction, adding up to about 1/2 MOA to my no-wind zero. Now everyone knows how important it is to have your no-wind zero. <span style="font-style: italic">But I'm not going to move my wind zero to account for the 1/2 MOA</span>
Why?
Because there's a bigger picture.
Everyone on my TEAM will have the same POI shift for the same reason. When shooting in team matches where coaches are calling wind for several shooters at the same time, it's vitally important that the rifles are all in-sync. It's better if we're all off by exactly 1/2 MOA, than have one rifle thats out of sync, even if that one rifle is the only one with a true corrected no-wind zero.
The above illustrates a specific caveat that's been stated generally, which is: choosing to correct for these effects is situational, and application specific. It's always there, but it might not always be the 'right' choice to worry about it. My situation is one example, shooting a rifle that someone else zeroed is another example of a situation that you probably could ignore it.
If you don't have a level on your carefully zeroed rifle and shooting past 1000 yards at a well determined distance in relatively calm conditions, it's probably ok to ignore it, especially if you're trying to focus on learning more basic and fundamental skills or if you're in a time crunch.
-Bryan
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
My conclusion after considering what I've read, been taught and been exposed to in this thread and others.
- ELR shooting is a fringe sport/art/science.
- The number of people worldwide that actively participate in ELR shooting are very small as a percentage of all shooters.
- there are factors involved in ELR shooting that if not taken into account by a shooter with a properly prepared rifle and ammo, also assuming good technique, will cause for otherwise unexplained misses.
- those who do not participate in ELR shooting feel the need to convince those who do, how wrong they are to approach their pursuit in the manner they see fit. This "convincing" includes but is not limited to derision, endless non-sensical arguments, inflammatory and derogatory comments, often personal in nature.
How many of you "experts" on Coriolis have shot over 1500 yds., much less 2000?
I don't troll shotgun threads and tell those guys how to shoot, because I don't shoot shotguns. It's not my area of expertise. Some of you guys would have a LOT more credibility if you actually did what what you talked about.
This is a quote from Frank on the home page of Sniper's Hide, "The “Hide” was founded by Frank “Lowlight” Galli. During my years as a Marine Scout Sniper, then later conducting surveillance. <span style="font-weight: bold">I was able to grasp the difficulty surrounding a profession that combines both an Art and a Science. Long Range Precision Shooting with or without a scoped rifle has often been demonized, through education and understanding we believe we can lift that dark veil which has clouded so many.</span>
Uh... did I miss the "understanding" part?
There are those here who are trying to educate. It is my opinion THEY have been demonized.
I get Frank's point. People who shoot at stuff miles away should know how to shoot. Duh. But arguing that they should forget about advanced principles of ELR shooting IF they are shooting ELR is preposterous. I don't care how poor their technique is. That will come. And as they continue to apply the math required. SO WILL THAT.
I believe this difference in viewpoint is irresolvable, due to the fact that most people cannot abide the fact that others may see something they do not.
Six blind guys describing an elephant.
John
My conclusion after considering what I've read, been taught and been exposed to in this thread and others.
- ELR shooting is a fringe sport/art/science.
- The number of people worldwide that actively participate in ELR shooting are very small as a percentage of all shooters.
- there are factors involved in ELR shooting that if not taken into account by a shooter with a properly prepared rifle and ammo, also assuming good technique, will cause for otherwise unexplained misses.
- those who do not participate in ELR shooting feel the need to convince those who do, how wrong they are to approach their pursuit in the manner they see fit. This "convincing" includes but is not limited to derision, endless non-sensical arguments, inflammatory and derogatory comments, often personal in nature.
How many of you "experts" on Coriolis have shot over 1500 yds., much less 2000?
I don't troll shotgun threads and tell those guys how to shoot, because I don't shoot shotguns. It's not my area of expertise. Some of you guys would have a LOT more credibility if you actually did what what you talked about.
This is a quote from Frank on the home page of Sniper's Hide, "The “Hide” was founded by Frank “Lowlight” Galli. During my years as a Marine Scout Sniper, then later conducting surveillance. <span style="font-weight: bold">I was able to grasp the difficulty surrounding a profession that combines both an Art and a Science. Long Range Precision Shooting with or without a scoped rifle has often been demonized, through education and understanding we believe we can lift that dark veil which has clouded so many.</span>
Uh... did I miss the "understanding" part?
There are those here who are trying to educate. It is my opinion THEY have been demonized.
I get Frank's point. People who shoot at stuff miles away should know how to shoot. Duh. But arguing that they should forget about advanced principles of ELR shooting IF they are shooting ELR is preposterous. I don't care how poor their technique is. That will come. And as they continue to apply the math required. SO WILL THAT.
I believe this difference in viewpoint is irresolvable, due to the fact that most people cannot abide the fact that others may see something they do not.
Six blind guys describing an elephant.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
So, I get back to CO on Oct 5th, I have to be somewhere the weekend of the 23rd, tell me what weekend I can come to Montana to get a lesson from you guys, name the day, the price I want to be schooled.
So, I get back to CO on Oct 5th, I have to be somewhere the weekend of the 23rd, tell me what weekend I can come to Montana to get a lesson from you guys, name the day, the price I want to be schooled.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Brian,
How else would you show the range of shooter deviation, I can show you targets from their own rifle, that is done everyday on this site. In the Practical thread there are dozens of pictures of individual shooters with their deviation. It's easy to see, but apparent unimportant. As dismissed as the mover, wind differences, a host of these things we see everyday.
Heck, why even go to Australia, just model the match a 1000 times and phone in your average score, save the airfare.
Brian,
How else would you show the range of shooter deviation, I can show you targets from their own rifle, that is done everyday on this site. In the Practical thread there are dozens of pictures of individual shooters with their deviation. It's easy to see, but apparent unimportant. As dismissed as the mover, wind differences, a host of these things we see everyday.
Heck, why even go to Australia, just model the match a 1000 times and phone in your average score, save the airfare.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Frank,
We know you see what you see everyday. The shooters and equipment and ranges you're talking about are among those I would say shouldn't be concerned with coriolis. No-one's trying to talk you into teaching coriolis as part of your class. (CoryT said he doesn't teach it in his basic class either, but does in the ELR class).
But like John said above, allow those with a different frame of reference (ELR) to have a discussion about the subject among their peers without being marginalized. It's good to give the context and caveats, but going beyond that isn't necessary. It's not like they're doing anything unsafe. Worst case scenario, someone goes 2/10'ths left, and hits 2/10'ths left.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heck, why even go to Australia, just model the match a 1000 times and phone in your average score, save the airfare.</div></div>
'cause I like how the aussie women talk.
Their beer's good too.
Frank,
We know you see what you see everyday. The shooters and equipment and ranges you're talking about are among those I would say shouldn't be concerned with coriolis. No-one's trying to talk you into teaching coriolis as part of your class. (CoryT said he doesn't teach it in his basic class either, but does in the ELR class).
But like John said above, allow those with a different frame of reference (ELR) to have a discussion about the subject among their peers without being marginalized. It's good to give the context and caveats, but going beyond that isn't necessary. It's not like they're doing anything unsafe. Worst case scenario, someone goes 2/10'ths left, and hits 2/10'ths left.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heck, why even go to Australia, just model the match a 1000 times and phone in your average score, save the airfare.</div></div>
'cause I like how the aussie women talk.
Their beer's good too.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Ya, because I never shot a single round passed a grand, let alone 1500. Which is precisely why I want a class and will take the trip to be schooled.
At this point I welcome the opportunity to be taught by the experts.
Ya, because I never shot a single round passed a grand, let alone 1500. Which is precisely why I want a class and will take the trip to be schooled.
At this point I welcome the opportunity to be taught by the experts.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,
'cause I like how the aussie women talk.
Their beer's good too. </div></div>
You gotta be sh*ttin me mate! I hear the occasional aussie in a hollywood movie and turn to whoevers next to me in the theater and say "noooo way we dont sound that bad do we?"
On the subject of beers, if your ever in Vic and want a drinking partner let me know I can show you some pretty sweet venues.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,
'cause I like how the aussie women talk.
Their beer's good too.
You gotta be sh*ttin me mate! I hear the occasional aussie in a hollywood movie and turn to whoevers next to me in the theater and say "noooo way we dont sound that bad do we?"
On the subject of beers, if your ever in Vic and want a drinking partner let me know I can show you some pretty sweet venues.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya, because I never shot a single round passed a grand, let alone 1500. Which is precisely why I want a class and will take the trip to be schooled.
At this point I welcome the opportunity to be taught by the experts. </div></div>
Frank,
Those comments about experience were not targeted at you.
I personally am not trying to "teach" you anything. I, like Bryan, MM, Augutis and a few others here, would like to be able to have an online conversation in peace without the trolling and interference of those that really are not even interested, but apparently get their ya-yas from goading others.
You and others have made your point. Learn how to shoot first. Take into account the factors that affect POA/POI in decreasing percentage of affect. Shoot a lot.
Seems pretty logical to me. In fact, it's what I thought I was doing. Just because I'm not good enough to judge wind at 1500 yds, should not preclude me from discussing the next realm or two of challenge, should it?
I'd love for you to come to Montana and shoot. You'd probably have a ball. It would be good to meet you in person. I doubt you'd learn much from me. But I'll bet you that Augustis and Joe could give you a place where you can shoot further than you can range. And you might learn a thing or two also. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking you've arrived. Nobody arrives.
I didn't just walk out the door one day and start shooting at plates at 2000 yds. I've been shooting rifles probably as long as you've been alive. This process has been a lifetime of refinement and processing new information.
I hate to put it this way Frank, but in addition to being site owner, you ARE a moderator. I think that others in this discussion (who actually want to discuss the topic) would agree that you've made your point. You and others have made your contribution. So, in the interest of the subject of the thread, which is NOT Basic Marksmanship 101, could we get back on topic please?
Thank you.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya, because I never shot a single round passed a grand, let alone 1500. Which is precisely why I want a class and will take the trip to be schooled.
At this point I welcome the opportunity to be taught by the experts. </div></div>
Frank,
Those comments about experience were not targeted at you.
I personally am not trying to "teach" you anything. I, like Bryan, MM, Augutis and a few others here, would like to be able to have an online conversation in peace without the trolling and interference of those that really are not even interested, but apparently get their ya-yas from goading others.
You and others have made your point. Learn how to shoot first. Take into account the factors that affect POA/POI in decreasing percentage of affect. Shoot a lot.
Seems pretty logical to me. In fact, it's what I thought I was doing. Just because I'm not good enough to judge wind at 1500 yds, should not preclude me from discussing the next realm or two of challenge, should it?
I'd love for you to come to Montana and shoot. You'd probably have a ball. It would be good to meet you in person. I doubt you'd learn much from me. But I'll bet you that Augustis and Joe could give you a place where you can shoot further than you can range. And you might learn a thing or two also. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking you've arrived. Nobody arrives.
I didn't just walk out the door one day and start shooting at plates at 2000 yds. I've been shooting rifles probably as long as you've been alive. This process has been a lifetime of refinement and processing new information.
I hate to put it this way Frank, but in addition to being site owner, you ARE a moderator. I think that others in this discussion (who actually want to discuss the topic) would agree that you've made your point. You and others have made your contribution. So, in the interest of the subject of the thread, which is NOT Basic Marksmanship 101, could we get back on topic please?
Thank you.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.
Now one might think that once one leaves the locale, the coriolis compensation becomes useless.
Strictly put, that's true, but on a larger scale, its not such a biggie. Remember, corolis correction isn't huge to begin with, and unless you're really putting on a big latitude change, it's not going to change all that much either. Basically, a small change to a small compensation amounts to something not all that different from nil.
Honestly, I really wish I could shoot well enough or far enough to be able to effectively employ a coriolis correction, but the truth is I can't, and the way things are going, I probably never will.
I'd also be damned surprised if I was the only one like that.
Greg
I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.
Now one might think that once one leaves the locale, the coriolis compensation becomes useless.
Strictly put, that's true, but on a larger scale, its not such a biggie. Remember, corolis correction isn't huge to begin with, and unless you're really putting on a big latitude change, it's not going to change all that much either. Basically, a small change to a small compensation amounts to something not all that different from nil.
Honestly, I really wish I could shoot well enough or far enough to be able to effectively employ a coriolis correction, but the truth is I can't, and the way things are going, I probably never will.
I'd also be damned surprised if I was the only one like that.
Greg
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John </div></div>
REALLY - how many clicks of "local coriolis" do I have at my local north facing range at 100 yards? I need to put this in my log book. Thanks.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John </div></div>
REALLY - how many clicks of "local coriolis" do I have at my local north facing range at 100 yards? I need to put this in my log book. Thanks.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I get back to CO on Oct 5th, I have to be somewhere the weekend of the 23rd, tell me what weekend I can come to Montana to get a lesson from you guys, name the day, the price I want to be schooled. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya, because I never shot a single round passed a grand, let alone 1500. Which is precisely why I want a class and will take the trip to be schooled.
At this point I welcome the opportunity to be taught by the experts. </div></div>
I don't know what's wrong with you.
Speaking only for myself,
I don't want your money. I don't run a school. I'm no expert at ELR. And, I am not compelled to prove anything to you.
I'm a precision rifle enthusiast who likes to test the outer limits of my equipment, ammo, and myself. Often times I enjoy sharing those experiences here, with other like-minded people. That's it in a nutshell.
Yes, I do have an OPINION about CE. My opinion is largely based on a background in artillery. My opinion will not change because of the invaluable "mentoring" you have provided thus far. Nor will I be cowed down from my position by some ridiculous challenge to school you.
I've been open to meeting and shooting with a few members of this forum. We do what we do in the spirit of learning, pushing the boundaries, and enjoying the comeraderie of sharing our common interests. Myself, shooting the 30-06 and 308, have discovered that shooting out to a mile in favorable conditions, yields better consistency than I would have imagined. That's about as far as I go. I did take a crack at the 2296 yd target recently (30-06, 208 AMax, 2720 fps), but couldn't register any hits or misses. My retained velocity out ther calc'd in the 900s, so likely the bullet had wobbled out of arc.
Your attitude, and pointed challenge, I respond to with a hearty "fuck off".
On the other hand, should you ever have the genuine interest to wish to join me for some LR rock shooting, pushing the distance envelope, I would enjoy that.
Having a PLRF-10 along on our last meet-n-shoot, opened up some possibilities that were new to me, as my ranging capability is a Leica CRF 1200. And I've been known to 'leapfrog' with it, to get a clue as to longer distances.
Now, If you want to attend a semiformal ELR event up here. You should lose the attitude, talk like a normal man, and ask Augustis for the dates of his next ELR field event. He may be hosting something this fall. I've been to his ranch a couple times, and he has steel way out there. His event brings some shooters with bonafide ELR rifles and related equipment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I get back to CO on Oct 5th, I have to be somewhere the weekend of the 23rd, tell me what weekend I can come to Montana to get a lesson from you guys, name the day, the price I want to be schooled. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya, because I never shot a single round passed a grand, let alone 1500. Which is precisely why I want a class and will take the trip to be schooled.
At this point I welcome the opportunity to be taught by the experts. </div></div>
I don't know what's wrong with you.
Speaking only for myself,
I don't want your money. I don't run a school. I'm no expert at ELR. And, I am not compelled to prove anything to you.
I'm a precision rifle enthusiast who likes to test the outer limits of my equipment, ammo, and myself. Often times I enjoy sharing those experiences here, with other like-minded people. That's it in a nutshell.
Yes, I do have an OPINION about CE. My opinion is largely based on a background in artillery. My opinion will not change because of the invaluable "mentoring" you have provided thus far. Nor will I be cowed down from my position by some ridiculous challenge to school you.
I've been open to meeting and shooting with a few members of this forum. We do what we do in the spirit of learning, pushing the boundaries, and enjoying the comeraderie of sharing our common interests. Myself, shooting the 30-06 and 308, have discovered that shooting out to a mile in favorable conditions, yields better consistency than I would have imagined. That's about as far as I go. I did take a crack at the 2296 yd target recently (30-06, 208 AMax, 2720 fps), but couldn't register any hits or misses. My retained velocity out ther calc'd in the 900s, so likely the bullet had wobbled out of arc.
Your attitude, and pointed challenge, I respond to with a hearty "fuck off".
On the other hand, should you ever have the genuine interest to wish to join me for some LR rock shooting, pushing the distance envelope, I would enjoy that.
Having a PLRF-10 along on our last meet-n-shoot, opened up some possibilities that were new to me, as my ranging capability is a Leica CRF 1200. And I've been known to 'leapfrog' with it, to get a clue as to longer distances.
Now, If you want to attend a semiformal ELR event up here. You should lose the attitude, talk like a normal man, and ask Augustis for the dates of his next ELR field event. He may be hosting something this fall. I've been to his ranch a couple times, and he has steel way out there. His event brings some shooters with bonafide ELR rifles and related equipment.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John </div></div>
Both coriolis and spin drift are non-linear effects that amount to virtually nothing at 100 yards (probably less than 0.1", less than 1/2 of one click).
I understand the sentiment that Greg is expressing. If we all worked from 600 or 1000 yard zeros, then that sentiment would be very valid because the zero would be 'zeroing out' the effects at long range. However your 100 yard zero doesn't really compensate for much.
-Bryan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John </div></div>
Both coriolis and spin drift are non-linear effects that amount to virtually nothing at 100 yards (probably less than 0.1", less than 1/2 of one click).
I understand the sentiment that Greg is expressing. If we all worked from 600 or 1000 yard zeros, then that sentiment would be very valid because the zero would be 'zeroing out' the effects at long range. However your 100 yard zero doesn't really compensate for much.
-Bryan
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
I can't speak to spin drift, and I would definitely defer to Bryan on the subject. While my guess is that Coriolis is linear (because diurnal rotation is a constant); I would guess that spin drift is not. I think it involves a lateral acceleration not unlike gravity but on a different plane, and probably compounds with distance.
I am saddened to see this topic degenerate into personalities, and even more saddened to see who it is who have chosen to do so.
Greg
I see that my post and Bryan's crossed. I am surprised to discover that coriolis is non-linear, but under the circmastances, I am well prepared to stand corrected (Rethinking, while rotation is constant, velocity is not, and as it slows, coriolis has more and more time to initiate deflection. So Coriolis would be inversely relative to velocity).
Since my more recent shooting experiences are under (often well under) 1Kyd, my assumptions would appear to track true, for me at least. Honestly, I'd guess that the grand majority of folks who read this are fellow passengers in my own same boat.
I can't speak to spin drift, and I would definitely defer to Bryan on the subject. While my guess is that Coriolis is linear (because diurnal rotation is a constant); I would guess that spin drift is not. I think it involves a lateral acceleration not unlike gravity but on a different plane, and probably compounds with distance.
I am saddened to see this topic degenerate into personalities, and even more saddened to see who it is who have chosen to do so.
Greg
I see that my post and Bryan's crossed. I am surprised to discover that coriolis is non-linear, but under the circmastances, I am well prepared to stand corrected (Rethinking, while rotation is constant, velocity is not, and as it slows, coriolis has more and more time to initiate deflection. So Coriolis would be inversely relative to velocity).
Since my more recent shooting experiences are under (often well under) 1Kyd, my assumptions would appear to track true, for me at least. Honestly, I'd guess that the grand majority of folks who read this are fellow passengers in my own same boat.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John </div></div>
Both coriolis and spin drift are non-linear effects that amount to virtually nothing at 100 yards (probably less than 0.1", less than 1/2 of one click).
I understand the sentiment that Greg is expressing. If we all worked from 600 or 1000 yard zeros, then that sentiment would be very valid because the zero would be 'zeroing out' the effects at long range. However your 100 yard zero doesn't really compensate for much.
-Bryan </div></div>
Thanks for the follow up Bryan. Saved me a lot of time sorting back through all of that.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we're maybe losing track of some points that may simplify the issue.
Most of us zero our knobs after finding our local zero. Every time we do that, we are simultaneously locking in some form of compensation for local coriolis. It's unconscious and it's automatic.</div></div>
Greg,
This is something I wondered about, since it is a constant. Would apply for spin drift also would it not. Or are those factors non-linear, thus requiring more correction the further we get out? I'll have to go back and read Bryan's comments, or perhaps he can chime back in here.
This is the kind of practical info. that is pertinent to me.
John </div></div>
Both coriolis and spin drift are non-linear effects that amount to virtually nothing at 100 yards (probably less than 0.1", less than 1/2 of one click).
I understand the sentiment that Greg is expressing. If we all worked from 600 or 1000 yard zeros, then that sentiment would be very valid because the zero would be 'zeroing out' the effects at long range. However your 100 yard zero doesn't really compensate for much.
-Bryan </div></div>
Thanks for the follow up Bryan. Saved me a lot of time sorting back through all of that.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Hey Shane,
I have choice words for you... that is for sure, I don't have to lose anything at all... I own this place, I'm allow free reign.
I want a lesson and I am willing to pay you to teach it too me, or at least I will show up within the next 30 days to your Locale to observe how you guys do it because I have no clue.
I don't have an attitude, ask anyone who knows me, so I am more than happy to step up, shut up and get schooled... August, you, John, no matter, I am opening it up, name the day I will be there to learn how you do it.
But understand I expect you'll know the MV, know the azimuth, know the angle to target, as well as the distance, I'll bring my own fundamentals, but will certainly be watching yours.
Oh, and I will bring my own PLRF -10 as I don't need yours.
we'll talk gear selection after lunch because I have to get back to the helicopter, I know it is short range compared, but still challenging.
Date, Time Location, mouth shut, ears, open... I am eager to learn.
Hey Shane,
I have choice words for you... that is for sure, I don't have to lose anything at all... I own this place, I'm allow free reign.
I want a lesson and I am willing to pay you to teach it too me, or at least I will show up within the next 30 days to your Locale to observe how you guys do it because I have no clue.
I don't have an attitude, ask anyone who knows me, so I am more than happy to step up, shut up and get schooled... August, you, John, no matter, I am opening it up, name the day I will be there to learn how you do it.
But understand I expect you'll know the MV, know the azimuth, know the angle to target, as well as the distance, I'll bring my own fundamentals, but will certainly be watching yours.
Oh, and I will bring my own PLRF -10 as I don't need yours.
we'll talk gear selection after lunch because I have to get back to the helicopter, I know it is short range compared, but still challenging.
Date, Time Location, mouth shut, ears, open... I am eager to learn.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am saddened to see this topic degenerate into personalities, and even more saddened to see who it is who have chosen to do so.
Since my more recent shooting experiences are under (often well under) 1Kyd, my assumptions would appear to track true, for me at least. Honestly, I'd guess that the grand majority of folks who read this are fellow passengers in my own same boat. </div></div>
I appreciate your contribution Greg. And honesty. The last statement is exactly to my point. Why are people who DON'T shoot regularly over 1000 yds. allowed to troll in a sub-forum clearly titled "Over 1000 Yds."? This thread was not just allowed to degrade. <span style="font-weight: bold">It was encouraged.</span> This is a moderator issue. I realize that different sites have different cultures, but I'd hate to see this site degrade into(continue to be?)a place where you have to tow the company line and kiss the right ass to have an opinion (oh, and that opinion had better be the right one!). If the mods can't or won't keep a thread on topic without thinly veiled personal attacks, this place will place will begin to offer nothing to mature adults that would like to discuss firearms related topics (perhaps due to the shortage of mature adults). If this continues, I will return to using it as a "read only" internet reference, as my contributions are apparently not valued.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am saddened to see this topic degenerate into personalities, and even more saddened to see who it is who have chosen to do so.
Since my more recent shooting experiences are under (often well under) 1Kyd, my assumptions would appear to track true, for me at least. Honestly, I'd guess that the grand majority of folks who read this are fellow passengers in my own same boat. </div></div>
I appreciate your contribution Greg. And honesty. The last statement is exactly to my point. Why are people who DON'T shoot regularly over 1000 yds. allowed to troll in a sub-forum clearly titled "Over 1000 Yds."? This thread was not just allowed to degrade. <span style="font-weight: bold">It was encouraged.</span> This is a moderator issue. I realize that different sites have different cultures, but I'd hate to see this site degrade into(continue to be?)a place where you have to tow the company line and kiss the right ass to have an opinion (oh, and that opinion had better be the right one!). If the mods can't or won't keep a thread on topic without thinly veiled personal attacks, this place will place will begin to offer nothing to mature adults that would like to discuss firearms related topics (perhaps due to the shortage of mature adults). If this continues, I will return to using it as a "read only" internet reference, as my contributions are apparently not valued.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I own this place, I'm allow free reign. </div></div>
You're absolutely right, Frank. You do. And you can throw your weight around and bully people over the internet, or you can be wise and follow your own rules.
CoC:
1.Exercise common sense and be considerate toward your fellow users. Diversity of opinion and intelligent civil discourse is encouraged; by the same token, Personal attacks, rudeness, flaming, baiting, insults to others, or arguments will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Any member who threatens anyone on the forum, via PM, instant messengers, or Email, will be banned immediately without notice.
2. Do not post off-topic. Please keep your comments consistent with the subject and purpose of the conversation thread. Deliberate disruption -- such as consistent off-topic commentary -- will not be tolerated.
It is absolutely your right to do what you please. But you will create chaos and an unhealthy environment if you do not model what you expect. If I was a Mod, I would have addressed several violations of 1 and 2 in this thread, some by you. But I doubt there will ever be any danger of that.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I own this place, I'm allow free reign. </div></div>
You're absolutely right, Frank. You do. And you can throw your weight around and bully people over the internet, or you can be wise and follow your own rules.
CoC:
1.Exercise common sense and be considerate toward your fellow users. Diversity of opinion and intelligent civil discourse is encouraged; by the same token, Personal attacks, rudeness, flaming, baiting, insults to others, or arguments will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Any member who threatens anyone on the forum, via PM, instant messengers, or Email, will be banned immediately without notice.
2. Do not post off-topic. Please keep your comments consistent with the subject and purpose of the conversation thread. Deliberate disruption -- such as consistent off-topic commentary -- will not be tolerated.
It is absolutely your right to do what you please. But you will create chaos and an unhealthy environment if you do not model what you expect. If I was a Mod, I would have addressed several violations of 1 and 2 in this thread, some by you. But I doubt there will ever be any danger of that.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
So what you are saying John, is I should have banned Montana Marine for attacking me... as the site owner and Moderator... telling me to fuck off and what not ? How long should ban last for based on his violations against me in more than one post.
While I am all about enforcing <span style="text-decoration: underline">my rules for others...</span> in this case I take it from the source and not put much stock in it.
I still want to shoot with you all, as I am eager to see what I am missing. In fact I am going to make a point when I get home to maybe study up, read the past musing from you guys, and then head out to Pawnee so I can see if I can nick anything beyond 1500. It will be a real hoot to move up from inside 1000 to outside.
So what you are saying John, is I should have banned Montana Marine for attacking me... as the site owner and Moderator... telling me to fuck off and what not ? How long should ban last for based on his violations against me in more than one post.
While I am all about enforcing <span style="text-decoration: underline">my rules for others...</span> in this case I take it from the source and not put much stock in it.
I still want to shoot with you all, as I am eager to see what I am missing. In fact I am going to make a point when I get home to maybe study up, read the past musing from you guys, and then head out to Pawnee so I can see if I can nick anything beyond 1500. It will be a real hoot to move up from inside 1000 to outside.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're absolutely right, Frank. You do. And you can throw your weight around and bully people over the internet, or you can be wise and follow your own rules.</div></div>
Wait a minute. I don't see how LL (or anyone else) is out of line, as the owner or visitor.
I see this whole topic as a conversation, or dispute, over differant opinions.
Maybe a little heated, but no differant then a group of guys
in a bar arguing a topic.
Personaly I the CE doen't come into play in MY style of shooting, but still, I enjoy this discussion, I'm learning something picked out of this and that post.
Will I ever need to adjust for CE, I don't know, probably not, but doen't mean I can enjoy reading these post and learning a bit.
I haven't seen LL try to ban anyone for voicing their opinion on the topic regardless of how he disagrees with that person.
My experiece was based on teaching sniper schools to the National Guard at about 900 yards, and to LE at somewhat less, plus high power to 1000 yards Or Machine gun schools a bit farther. Now in my old age I'm drifting to CMP Vintage Rifle Games which has less of a need to know the CE effect.
Still I enjoy reading Brain and others on the subject, And I agree LLs comments on his instruction ideals (which because of the way I shoot better agrees with mine.
Still I enjoy this topic, who knows, I might learn something. Again I don't see LL taking the avantage of anyone because they disagree with him as the Owner of the Forum.
Lets let them continue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're absolutely right, Frank. You do. And you can throw your weight around and bully people over the internet, or you can be wise and follow your own rules.</div></div>
Wait a minute. I don't see how LL (or anyone else) is out of line, as the owner or visitor.
I see this whole topic as a conversation, or dispute, over differant opinions.
Maybe a little heated, but no differant then a group of guys
in a bar arguing a topic.
Personaly I the CE doen't come into play in MY style of shooting, but still, I enjoy this discussion, I'm learning something picked out of this and that post.
Will I ever need to adjust for CE, I don't know, probably not, but doen't mean I can enjoy reading these post and learning a bit.
I haven't seen LL try to ban anyone for voicing their opinion on the topic regardless of how he disagrees with that person.
My experiece was based on teaching sniper schools to the National Guard at about 900 yards, and to LE at somewhat less, plus high power to 1000 yards Or Machine gun schools a bit farther. Now in my old age I'm drifting to CMP Vintage Rifle Games which has less of a need to know the CE effect.
Still I enjoy reading Brain and others on the subject, And I agree LLs comments on his instruction ideals (which because of the way I shoot better agrees with mine.
Still I enjoy this topic, who knows, I might learn something. Again I don't see LL taking the avantage of anyone because they disagree with him as the Owner of the Forum.
Lets let them continue.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Frank, if you want to meet up with me and do some 1000+ stuff I'm open to that.
What I can offer you mainly is lasing/shooting rocks at ranges pretty much out to PLRF ability, if you have the rifle/ammo/glass to go that far.
I'm pushing 208s at 2600 fps in my 308, and same projo at 2720 fps in the 30-06. So I'm kinda assed out, past a mile or so.
I can definitely provide azimuth of fire info via magnetic compass. I'm sure you have ACI, and as you already stated, PLRF-10.
A couple 'shooting galleries' on the NF I can take you too, where we can stretch it out. Keep in mind archery season is open, and rifle season is around the corner, so extra care is dictated.
If this is of interest to you, let me know. I'd enjoy burning some powder with you.
If you are expecting me to prove/disprove CE, we're not on the same page.
Frank, if you want to meet up with me and do some 1000+ stuff I'm open to that.
What I can offer you mainly is lasing/shooting rocks at ranges pretty much out to PLRF ability, if you have the rifle/ammo/glass to go that far.
I'm pushing 208s at 2600 fps in my 308, and same projo at 2720 fps in the 30-06. So I'm kinda assed out, past a mile or so.
I can definitely provide azimuth of fire info via magnetic compass. I'm sure you have ACI, and as you already stated, PLRF-10.
A couple 'shooting galleries' on the NF I can take you too, where we can stretch it out. Keep in mind archery season is open, and rifle season is around the corner, so extra care is dictated.
If this is of interest to you, let me know. I'd enjoy burning some powder with you.
If you are expecting me to prove/disprove CE, we're not on the same page.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are saying John, is I should have banned Montana Marine for attacking me... as the site owner and Moderator... telling me to fuck off and what not ? How long should ban last for based on his violations against me in more than one post.
While I am all about enforcing <span style="text-decoration: underline">my rules for others...</span> in this case I take it from the source and not put much stock in it.
I still want to shoot with you all, as I am eager to see what I am missing. In fact I am going to make a point when I get home to maybe study up, read the past musing from you guys, and then head out to Pawnee so I can see if I can nick anything beyond 1500. It will be a real hoot to move up from inside 1000 to outside.
</div></div>
In the strictest sense, yes Frank. Violations are violations. What you do is up to you. I would think a warning PM would be sufficient. If I were a Mod, that's where I would start.
But I <span style="font-style: italic">would </span>argue that you baited, poked, prodded and enflamed him for pages prior and give him credit for showing tremendous self-restraint to that point. I don't know Shane real well, but "a hearty fuck off" has not been a part of his normal vocabulary.
Frank, you seem to have an axe to grind here. I never passed myself off as an expert on ELR. I'm here to learn. I did learn some things from you in this thread. It could have been more pleasant.
If you would like to shoot peer-to-peer with someone who knows what they're talking about in this arena, perhaps Augustis will have you out to his ranch. Let me know when, 'cuz there's probably a ton to be learned from both of you.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are saying John, is I should have banned Montana Marine for attacking me... as the site owner and Moderator... telling me to fuck off and what not ? How long should ban last for based on his violations against me in more than one post.
While I am all about enforcing <span style="text-decoration: underline">my rules for others...</span> in this case I take it from the source and not put much stock in it.
I still want to shoot with you all, as I am eager to see what I am missing. In fact I am going to make a point when I get home to maybe study up, read the past musing from you guys, and then head out to Pawnee so I can see if I can nick anything beyond 1500. It will be a real hoot to move up from inside 1000 to outside.
</div></div>
In the strictest sense, yes Frank. Violations are violations. What you do is up to you. I would think a warning PM would be sufficient. If I were a Mod, that's where I would start.
But I <span style="font-style: italic">would </span>argue that you baited, poked, prodded and enflamed him for pages prior and give him credit for showing tremendous self-restraint to that point. I don't know Shane real well, but "a hearty fuck off" has not been a part of his normal vocabulary.
Frank, you seem to have an axe to grind here. I never passed myself off as an expert on ELR. I'm here to learn. I did learn some things from you in this thread. It could have been more pleasant.
If you would like to shoot peer-to-peer with someone who knows what they're talking about in this arena, perhaps Augustis will have you out to his ranch. Let me know when, 'cuz there's probably a ton to be learned from both of you.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
The weekend of 9-10 Oct might be a good time to shoot for.
Into Oct the weather is usually pretty nice. If a early snowstorm blows in, there won't be visibility to even see past a few hundred yards. Just something to keep in mind.
The weekend of 9-10 Oct might be a good time to shoot for.
Into Oct the weather is usually pretty nice. If a early snowstorm blows in, there won't be visibility to even see past a few hundred yards. Just something to keep in mind.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The weekend of 9-10 Oct might be a good time to shoot for.
Into Oct the weather is usually pretty nice. If a early snowstorm blows in, there won't be visibility to even see past a few hundred yards. Just something to keep in mind. </div></div>
Bring the 7WSM, Frank... there's this rock at 2296 yards, that's STILL to be hit.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The weekend of 9-10 Oct might be a good time to shoot for.
Into Oct the weather is usually pretty nice. If a early snowstorm blows in, there won't be visibility to even see past a few hundred yards. Just something to keep in mind. </div></div>
Bring the 7WSM, Frank... there's this rock at 2296 yards, that's STILL to be hit.
John
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
How best to put this...
Maybe...
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons...".
Actually, please, everybody, not in front of the Klingons...
How best to put this...
Maybe...
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons...".
Actually, please, everybody, not in front of the Klingons...
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons...".
</div></div>
Now that's funny.
I think its an interestsing discussion, and all parties have valid points. I'm more with GregL on this one, because I'm pretty sure I can't shoot the difference.
As I (and others) have said, its a blend of art and science and the application must be tempoered by intent and desired outcome.
But the real poignant remark that stands out to me, regarding shooting at distance come from Lindy:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And then there's the wind...
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons...".
</div></div>
Now that's funny.
I think its an interestsing discussion, and all parties have valid points. I'm more with GregL on this one, because I'm pretty sure I can't shoot the difference.
As I (and others) have said, its a blend of art and science and the application must be tempoered by intent and desired outcome.
But the real poignant remark that stands out to me, regarding shooting at distance come from Lindy:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And then there's the wind...
</div></div>
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
I would not even consider a 308, it's an 800m cartridge, I just checked the vault and I have access to a couple of 338s and 300wms that might fit the bill as well I have the Zeiss to spot through.
Being new at ELR I am not sure which rifle would be right, and I know I have at least 1 case of Lapua 250gr Scenars I hope those will be up to the task, as well if you recommend the 300WM I only have factory 190gr fare so I am not sure if they will work. I have the two .50s here but now way I am carrying them. I'm just a little fellar... which is why I like the shorter 338s.
Glass wise we use what we can, but I think they are up to the task.
Here is a shot from just about an hour ago...
Give me a town in Montana so I can look up the address.
I would not even consider a 308, it's an 800m cartridge, I just checked the vault and I have access to a couple of 338s and 300wms that might fit the bill as well I have the Zeiss to spot through.
Being new at ELR I am not sure which rifle would be right, and I know I have at least 1 case of Lapua 250gr Scenars I hope those will be up to the task, as well if you recommend the 300WM I only have factory 190gr fare so I am not sure if they will work. I have the two .50s here but now way I am carrying them. I'm just a little fellar... which is why I like the shorter 338s.
Glass wise we use what we can, but I think they are up to the task.
Here is a shot from just about an hour ago...
Give me a town in Montana so I can look up the address.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Frank you will want to fly into Billings.
From there I will be more than happy to be your chauffeur.
Frank you will want to fly into Billings.
From there I will be more than happy to be your chauffeur.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
I'm about 20 miles east of Helena.
The 338/250 Scenars sounds like the ticket.
I'm about 20 miles east of Helena.
The 338/250 Scenars sounds like the ticket.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Frank
Just a friendly suggestion. Is it possible if you guys can video tape the sessions so all of us can experience it as well.
I'll tell you I do ELR out to 2k+. I have never consider the coriolis effect, although I have to check my ballistics software to see if they already do that internally.
Frank
Just a friendly suggestion. Is it possible if you guys can video tape the sessions so all of us can experience it as well.
I'll tell you I do ELR out to 2k+. I have never consider the coriolis effect, although I have to check my ballistics software to see if they already do that internally.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Billings is about 250 miles away, Helena is 20 miles away.
Billings is about 250 miles away, Helena is 20 miles away.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the two .50s here but now way I am carrying them.</div></div>
I can lend you a EDM Windrunner in .408 which should fit the bill quite nicely if you wish
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the two .50s here but now way I am carrying them.</div></div>
I can lend you a EDM Windrunner in .408 which should fit the bill quite nicely if you wish
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Thanks, but I have shot the 408 CheyTac, we used it in the 2nd SHC at 1250, and while I hit all the targets, first round I didn't like it.
Gotta run, more helicopter.
Thanks, but I have shot the 408 CheyTac, we used it in the 2nd SHC at 1250, and while I hit all the targets, first round I didn't like it.
Gotta run, more helicopter.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
</div></div>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Bolt cocked, safety off, finger on trigger, eye off scope, not on target?!?!
.....just saying'</span>
Actually looking closer it looks like eye's on scope.....disregard my comment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
</div></div>
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Bolt cocked, safety off, finger on trigger, eye off scope, not on target?!?!
.....just saying'</span>
Actually looking closer it looks like eye's on scope.....disregard my comment.
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
Hey, this is beginning to shape up...
I'd love to be a fly on that wall...
...And yes, leave it to Lindy to bring us all back to our senses...
...and 'Biker, quit pickin' on them small guys...
If we <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> want to be daring, how's abouts a .260?
Hey, this is beginning to shape up...
I'd love to be a fly on that wall...
...And yes, leave it to Lindy to bring us all back to our senses...
...and 'Biker, quit pickin' on them small guys...
If we <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> want to be daring, how's abouts a .260?
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 175G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the two .50s here but now way I am carrying them.</div></div>
I can lend you a EDM Windrunner in .408 which should fit the bill quite nicely if you wish </div></div>
you have a Windrunner in 408? Wow. I am thinking of the samething (already have a M96 in 50 BMG, so just a barrel and bolt).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 175G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the two .50s here but now way I am carrying them.</div></div>
I can lend you a EDM Windrunner in .408 which should fit the bill quite nicely if you wish
you have a Windrunner in 408? Wow. I am thinking of the samething (already have a M96 in 50 BMG, so just a barrel and bolt).
Re: Rotation of the Earth?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank
Just a friendly suggestion. Is it possible if you guys can video tape the sessions so all of us can experience it as well. </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank
Just a friendly suggestion. Is it possible if you guys can video tape the sessions so all of us can experience it as well. </div></div>
+1
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