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Rifle Scopes S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

B

Brandon7766

Private
Minuteman
Nov 13, 2011
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Narrowed down to those 2 scopes both used...2500 and 2300 respectively, so good deals on both...having a hard time making the final decision. Is it simply a chevy vs. Ford at this point ?

Going on a custom rem700 308 w/ manners t4a chassis. Purpose is to learn to shoot long range.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I have two of the PH 5-25 Gen 2 XR's. I also have several friends who shoot either the S&B with P4F's or PH 5-25's. I don't think you can go wrong with either. I prefer the PH reticle, other than that I do not see much difference.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I would hold off until what ever is going on with Premier is done. I have heard a slew of different things reorganizing, Chris is Retiring, they where bought out, etc.. I would patiently wait and see what everything results too. With all that being said I really like my Premiers.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

There is really no answer to which one of these is better, personally I run a Premier but I also have extensive experience using the S&B. That being said I think it comes down to personal preference in terms of the reticle and the controls. As for the current business state of Premier I wouldn't worry about it, I just returned from SHOT and have it on good authority that Premier is not going anywhere. The best advice I could give is to try and get behind both scopes and see which one suits you needs better, whatever your choice you will not be disappointed.

Ben
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

Unless the PH has features you really want that that this particular S & B lacks (maybe it has MOA adjustments or CW knobs and you want Mil/CCW) then you would have to be smoking crack to pick the PH over the S & B at any price differential, let alone $200.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless the PH has features you really want that that this particular S & B lacks (maybe it has MOA adjustments or CW knobs and you want Mil/CCW) then you would have to be smoking crack to pick the PH over the S & B at any price differential, let alone $200. </div></div>

I'm a crack-head, then.

For me, the PH is better in every way but reticle. I do prefer the P4F's .2mrad subtentions at the outer edges of the reticle, but otherwise, the PH glass is brighter, the knobs more tacticle and crisp, and I'm in love with the "clunk" you get ever full MIL on the turret. The illumination control is much slicker than the SB, and the tool-less locking turrets are sweet.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I have only known 3 people who had Premiers but everyone of them has had issues holding zero specifically when a lot of movement was involved. To Premiers credit they were willing to rectify the problems and were very prompt and professional in all their dealings. But having watched everyone I ever saw go down I decided to go with a S&B.

Keep in mind this is only my experience with them, nothing more nothing less.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

Smoking crack? Either would be a fine scope and as mentioned Premier isn't going anywhere. If anything, it will be a better company now. Sounds like somebody has an agenda! Be rational.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

My observations:

Premeir- Does not tunnel below 7.5X, Has better resolution (to my eyes), much less forgiving on position at 25X

S&B- Tunnels below 7.5X, Brighter glass, Very forgiving at 25X

Just my observations from the range the other day, the S&B was mine, a friend had the Premeir.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

The answer is EASY!

At those prices, buy BOTH, try them out, keep whichever one you like the best.

Sell the other and make $2-500 on the transaction!
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

Which one leaks?? Which one has relatively crappy knobs? Which one has an assine set-up for zeroing knobs?

Shoot them both in rugged match conditions with torrential rain and see which one you pick...

The ONLY thing a PH has over an S & B is that they do not tunnel at low power like the S & B. Chances are though, that tunneling will NEVER be an issue during actual use.

I have no idea who has better CS as despite owning and shooting the piss out of a number of them I HAVE NEVER SENT AN S&B in for service. Premier has great service...I know this because ALL THAT I OWNED AND SUBSEQUENTLY SOLD HAD TO BE RETURNED FOR SERVICE.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

hold off and see what coming, you might find something you like better. but i'd take the schmidt and bender if i had to choose between the two
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer is EASY!

At those prices, buy BOTH, try them out, keep whichever one you like the best.

Sell the other and make $2-500 on the transaction! </div></div>

This is the answer. If you can't afford both, buy the S&B and find a PH to look through. If you like the PH better, you can dump the S&B and pocket a couple hundred bucks on the deal.

I like my PH's but, the market for a used PH is in the tank right now. With the S&B price hike going on, you can easily unload it if you don't like it.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I have heard numerous horror stories as of late with Premiers not tracking and holding zero. S&B is a superior scope.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bward</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard numerous horror stories as of late with Premiers not tracking and holding zero. S&B is a superior scope. </div></div>

Are these newer or older scopes. Have these tales been posted anywhere? I have 3 so, I'd like to know what I'm in for.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

If it's a used PH you might want to ask about the date of production on it.... or mount it in rings on the rifle first and confirm that the parallax knob functions properly.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

After playing around with a lot of different scopes, none of which have ever had any issues, I am just going to go with the better features and reticles. I just recently got a S&B with the locking turrets, I love everything about the scope, except for the P4F reticle. Its too plain and I can get lost in the reticle.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I have both.

Premier Pro's - Better glass (my opinion), easier to zero, and elevation turret is lower profile. The best customer service that I've ever had for any product.

Premier Con's - XR reticle (I think there are better reticles out there, again my opinion because I like the P4F), and parallax adjustment is very stiff in cold weather.

S&B Pro's - P4F reticle, can't get much better then that. Adjustments are smooth as glass, ocular focus is easy and simple.

S&B Con's - Tunnel effect below 7.5X magnification, elevation turret sits kind of high, and feels like it could be easily damaged.

If I could have a Premier with a P4F, In my mind I would have almost the perfect scope.

As far as going with the Gen 2 Mildot, I think you would find the reticle to be too thick at the higher powers.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I would get the Premier, but you can't go wrong with either. Both are excellent.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I would take the S&B without thinking twice. S&B will be here for a long time to come.

Premier is having alot of managment and money issues. Not to mention they have screwed the USMC sniper program over with scopes that cant even get warrenty work done on. I wouldnt support them.

S&B is the best choice!!
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take the S&B without thinking twice. S&B will be here for a long time to come.

Premier is having alot of managment and money issues. Not to mention they have screwed the USMC sniper program over with scopes that cant even get warrenty work done on. I wouldnt support them.

S&B is the best choice!! </div></div>

Where did you get that information? I am here to service any scope that has problems. I spoke to guys from The Corp at SHOT and they were happy with our product.
You sir have bad information and I would ask that you refrain from passing along such drivel when I am here and working in Winchester on our product.
Please get your facts straight before you make such accusations.
Thanks,
Paul
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I can, of course, only comment on my own experience with Premier scopes and the company. I have only had good experiences with my Premier scopes and only sold one (a Heritage) because I wanted to save weight. The LT fits the bill just fine.

I've never needed any service on either, but did ask Premier for a spare set of clickers for the Heritage, just to have them around. When I misplaced those, I called and asked for a replacement. I was only treated with courtesy and prompt service. When I had a question about the LT, Paul Lange was quick to return my call and answered it well.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I would bet that 99% of the zeroing issues and tracking issues that people claim about Premier, are related to operator error. I myself was one of these guys. When zeroing one has to loosen the cams a lot. I found that to be my problem, I would just flip the cam lever over and zero. Nope have to loosen it more than that.(I found that the cam was still engaging the turret) Have to loosen it a few turns down to make sure it is disengaged.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I run two Premiers. Both 5-25X56 Gen 2 XR reticles and have no problem with them at all. The one on my 300 WM has been abused greatly over the three years I've had it. I've now put over 2000 rounds down the pipe in this gun, been through two barrels, and this scope still works like a champ. They're built like a brick shit house and will take quite the beating and still perform well. At least thats been my experience. I just bought the second one for the 260 in December. The outfit I buy from can't keep them on the shelf. Great glass, love the Gen 2 XR reticle, and the two distinct knob clicks sold me on them. S&B is great also but decided to go with Premier.

 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I like my Premiers no problems what so ever.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would bet that 99% of the zeroing issues and tracking issues that people claim about Premier, are related to operator error. I myself was one of these guys. When zeroing one has to loosen the cams a lot. I found that to be my problem, I would just flip the cam lever over and zero. Nope have to loosen it more than that.(I found that the cam was still engaging the turret) Have to loosen it a few turns down to make sure it is disengaged. </div></div>

Excellent point! I discovered the same issue. Rather than unscrewing the camlever a couple turns, I noted that when cammed over, you are pulling the engagement rod UP. So, I just flip the lever and give the engagement rod a nice push DOWN to ensure turret disengagement. Works on mine, and my partners. I did spend 30 minutes validating this method and satisfying myself that it in fact works by verifying the reticle does NOT move while adjust the turret.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

Also keep in mind some of the older Premiers did not have yardage markers on the parallax knobs. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but it might for you.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I love my Premier Scopes the S&B scope are also outstanding scopes. Whatever one you get you will love.

Mike @ CST
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also keep in mind some of the older Premiers did not have yardage markers on the parallax knobs. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but it might for you. </div></div>

Opposite perspective. I <span style="font-style: italic">prefer </span> no marks on the parallax knob.

Re-enforces the fact there's no point in looking at the knob cause yardage marks are generalized settings (read: arbitary) anyways. Stay on target.

It's not hard & very instintual that turn toward=closer and turn away=further.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

I love my PH 5-25, and I will be getting another one. I have no idea about their customer service, because I've never needed it. My gear get's abused on a weekly basis shooting steal above 6500 ft in snow and ice, or nasty mountain dust in the windy summer time heat. My scope has been dropped on numerous occasions (on rocky outcroppings), the objective and occular have been sand blasted by the nasty winds where I shoot over and over, week after week. My scope tracks perfectly, glass is better than any other optic I've looked through and it is tough as s**t. They are great scopes, and the company is not going anywhere. S&B makes a great product, but IMO, following this years price increase, there are other scope makers offering a product as good or better for less money. Premier being one of them. You will not be disappointed with either, but you will pay less for the Premier. Just my 2 cents...
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also keep in mind some of the older Premiers did not have yardage markers on the parallax knobs. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but it might for you. </div></div>

And yet, the parallax markings on my S&B isn't even close to being right. Last time I checked, my 100 yard parallax is set at 300 on the knob.

People make way too big of a deal of the parallax knob is marked or not. It takes all of 2 seconds to adjust and go.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would bet that 99% of the zeroing issues and tracking issues that people claim about Premier, are related to operator error. I myself was one of these guys. When zeroing one has to loosen the cams a lot. I found that to be my problem, I would just flip the cam lever over and zero. Nope have to loosen it more than that.(I found that the cam was still engaging the turret) Have to loosen it a few turns down to make sure it is disengaged. </div></div>

Excellent point! I discovered the same issue. Rather than unscrewing the camlever a couple turns, I noted that when cammed over, you are pulling the engagement rod UP. So, I just flip the lever and give the engagement rod a nice push DOWN to ensure turret disengagement. Works on mine, and my partners. I did spend 30 minutes validating this method and satisfying myself that it in fact works by verifying the reticle does NOT move while adjust the turret.</div></div>

What does zeroing a turret have to do with it's tracking? I've had several Premiers personally and had to use a correction factor on all of them. I've never needed to with the 3-4 5-25 S&B's I've owned.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brandon7766</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Narrowed down to those 2 scopes both used...2500 and 2300 respectively, so good deals on both...having a hard time making the final decision. Is it simply a chevy vs. Ford at this point ?

Going on a custom rem700 308 w/ manners t4a chassis. Purpose is to learn to shoot long range. </div></div>

So to go back to OP, Brandon7766 -- the answer is "yes, it's a Ford vs Chevy debate."

Pick your poison & drink. Hell, if you have $4800 available, pick both, see which one works best for you, then sell the other.

Fact -- you will not lose $ reselling the one you dont want at those prices.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

all the stuff with the tracking problems on premier turned me off from them.... still dont have deep enough pockets to pay that much for a scope and possibly have to deal with problems
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

My Premier tracks perfectly and has been sitting on a 338 LM for over a year. I have no complaints in this department and have run several other Premiers which had perfect tracking as well... Just my honest experience, not meant to discredit the above statements...

Ben
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brutus1776</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all the stuff with the tracking problems on premier turned me off from them.... still dont have deep enough pockets to pay that much for a scope and possibly have to deal with problems </div></div>

Lowlight did freeze tests on the PR years ago. As a few mentioned above, his conclusion on tracking issues was user-error on not setting proper tension on the Leverlock. After he properly set it, he could not duplicate tracking issues...
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

My greatest concern with the Premier was the report from LL regarding failed parallax. If tightening the rings to spec causes the parallax to fail the scope is not up to snuff IMHO. That said this may have been an isolated issue and only specific to early runs of the scope. I have a Premier LT and I'm very pleased with it thus far.
Rath
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also keep in mind some of the older Premiers did not have yardage markers on the parallax knobs. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but it might for you. </div></div>

And yet, the parallax markings on my S&B isn't even close to being right. Last time I checked, my 100 yard parallax is set at 300 on the knob.

People make way too big of a deal of the parallax knob is marked or not. It takes all of 2 seconds to adjust and go. </div></div>

And my SB 5-25 is parallax free at 100 yards when the knob is between 50 and 75. Goes to show the marked knob doesn't mean shit.

I do think it's worthwhile to spend 10 minutes with any scope you've got and get parallax-free at 100,200,500 and 1000 - and mark it on the knob. Precious seconds count at a competition.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take the S&B without thinking twice. S&B will be here for a long time to come.

Premier is having alot of managment and money issues. Not to mention they have screwed the USMC sniper program over with scopes that cant even get warrenty work done on. I wouldnt support them.

S&B is the best choice!!</div></div>
Do you have any facts or are you just trying to give a textbook example of libel? I realize S&B is the "official" flavor of the month, but how far does the ad campaign have to go? Hurting a company's reputation with anything other than facts should be frowned upon in the shooting world.

If you have personal experience with why the S&B is "the best choice" over the PH, I would love to hear it. I know you have alot of experience with different scope brands/models and would value your opinion.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever had problems with any of the scopes you've used, including Premier?
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My greatest concern with the Premier was the report from LL regarding failed parallax. If tightening the rings to spec causes the parallax to fail the scope is not up to snuff IMHO. That said this may have been an isolated issue and only specific to early runs of the scope. I have a Premier LT and I'm very pleased with it thus far.
Rath </div></div>

The problem with the parallax was an early issue in production. It was resolved long ago. Premier recommends torquing your caps screws on your rings to 15-18 in/lbs. I torqued mine to 25 in/lb's right when I got it and have never had a single issue. It's still at 25 in/lbs, parallax functions perfectly.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SagebrushShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My greatest concern with the Premier was the report from LL regarding failed parallax. If tightening the rings to spec causes the parallax to fail the scope is not up to snuff IMHO. That said this may have been an isolated issue and only specific to early runs of the scope. I have a Premier LT and I'm very pleased with it thus far.
Rath </div></div>

The problem with the parallax was an early issue in production. It was resolved long ago. Premier recommends torquing your caps screws on your rings to 15-18 in/lbs. I torqued mine to 25 in/lb's right when I got it and have never had a single issue. It's still at 25 in/lbs, parallax functions perfectly.</div></div>

That is not true,

There is a recommended torque setting, but the fix is only for those who report it and sent the scopes in for service. I still randomly sample the scopes and still randomly find scopes with the parallax not working. Just because you don't have an issue with one scope does not take away from the number I have been exposed too, and your experience can have everything to do with ring placement and not torque value. Move your rings a 1/4 of an inch in any direction and you can very well experience the problem. they acknowledged the issue, they can fix it but it is still present.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

Also in reference to someone above, until Premier changes hands, the future is uncertain. The fact Chris himself is gone says a lot. If they are bought and the new owner invest in them to address a few of the issues, All will be good, until then you are taking a $2000+ 50/50 bet with your money.

As I understand it only Paul works there, and very little is moving in the US until the future is finalized. hopefully that is soon, and when it is, opinions may change but if it all falls through, I want all of you pushing it to respond with the same verve.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

German scuttlebutt has it Schmidt-Bender has lost their second or third generation of optical engineers who just plain bailed. Check the "Careers" section of their web site to see what's open: http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/company/job-a-career.html

Keep an eye on Optronika -- it's the company Herr Bender formed from the Schmidt-Bender staff who have left.

Optronika designed the Premier -- according to a colleague you may as well call it a "PM III." Herr Bender has yet to decide whether or not to fire up production in Germany or stateside (saving US import excise taxes).

Here's to Optronika firing up production. A product-improved "PM IV" with Multi-Purpose Sniper Reticle (MSR) would rock for sniper applications (perhaps specifically designed for 338s and 50s to 2 klicks).
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

The facts are what they are Paul. You are a one man show.

1. Chris bailed to Surefire with the promnise that he will be delivering a 1-8 for Surefire in the near future.

2. Premier recently appraoched S&B asking them to service your scopes for the USMC program because you are not able to do so!

3. Andrew Webber from Armament Tech dumped large sums of money into Premier over the last year in order to keep the company on track. You have come to a crossroad again and WHILE at SHOT Show Andrew Webber once again had to make a choice. Let Premier go tits up or dump a ton more money in order to keep it going tits up again.

Thats pretty much the jist and the facts that are on the street.

As a consumer I would appreciate your company being truthful with us the consumers. There are plenty of people around the industry that know what is going on so please speak the truth it will set you free.
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: five5six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The facts are what they are Paul. You are a one man show.

1. Chris bailed to Surefire with the promnise that he will be delivering a 1-8 for Surefire in the near future.

2. Premier recently appraoched S&B asking them to service your scopes for the USMC program because you are not able to do so!

3. Andrew Webber from Armament Tech dumped large sums of money into Premier over the last year in order to keep the company on track. You have come to a crossroad again and WHILE at SHOT Show Andrew Webber once again had to make a choice. Let Premier go tits up or dump a ton more money in order to keep it going tits up again.

Thats pretty much the jist and the facts that are on the street.

As a consumer I would appreciate your company being truthful with us the consumers. There are plenty of people around the industry that know what is going on so please speak the truth it will set you free.
</div></div>

Incorrect on counts 1 and 2. Go try again.
Chris is at Surefire not for a 1-8 but for R&D on other things. He has moved on and I am happy for him.
Sherry Thomas approached S&B seeing if they would like us to build scopes for them again- not repairing the USMC scopes WE built but servicing and building new scopes for S&B. This was done a longtime ago before we found out S&B opened their repair facility in Ashburn, VA. Since we used to build them Sherry thought our facilities could be used in that manner.

I have been nothing but forthright with everybody here and who calls. Things are changing but the company is still moving forward.
As usual some people here would rather spout fiction than fact and I dare say I know a hell of a lot more about this ordeal than anyone else out there.
Bottom line, we have stock, we have a service center and we have Germany continuing production for us until things get figured out in Winchester.
This is all I am going to say on this subject as I am tired of repeating myself as it seems very few listen anyway.
Thanks,
Paul
 
Re: S&B P4f or Premeir gen2 5-25...which scope?

We have had nothing but positive experiences with Premier and met with Paul at SHOT and talked for quite some time.

He came across as a straight up, no BS guy to me and my "good guy" meter hasn't let me down in a long, long time.
 
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